Neon Genesis EVANGELION General Thread

[technoblue]

7 hours ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Thanks for the tip! Curious why you would say there are no true religious undertones? Even if just meant to be used as symbolism or a metaphor, there are clear religious references throughout even though I would agree that they aren't anchored in any literal way. It's been said that Hideaki Anno created this at a time when he was going through an existential crisis of sorts, so even if the story is anchored in aliens and colonizing it has philosophical/existential undertones to be sure.

Nadia and Evangelion are often compared favorably to one another, but Nadia has more filler.

Anyway, just to give my two cents, how I understand it is that the symbolism was originally used to set the show apart from its contemporaries and help market it. I don't know enough to say if that didn't develop into something more over time or not. Like you wrote, DYRL VF-1S, it's been said that Hideaki Anno was dealing with a crisis of his own at the time, and he is also on record saying that there are multiple interpretations. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themes_of_Neon_Genesis_Evangelion

42 minutes ago, easnoddy said:

Before going on to the rebuild Rebuild films, watch Death and Rebirth and The End of Evangelion.  I've forgotten which, but it retells eps 25 and 26 in an action-format instead of all playing out in Shinji's head (whether to initiate the 3rd impact or not).

This. ^^

Death and Rebirth rehashes the anime but does flesh out a few things with added info. End of Evangelion goes further showing how SEELE responds to Gendo. Rebuild retells the events and then gets us to what comes next. Like, easnoddy notes, the later films aren't as internal to Shinji and his ego and so we get to see a lot more of what's going on outside of The Human Instrumentality Project. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by technoblue

[anime52k8]

I don't want to say what the rebuild films actually are until the final film comes out. it's only been a decade but I'm coming around to the time loop theory.

[DYRL VF-1S]

Ugh my EVA2020 is still missing on the container that got busted up. P-Bandai just sent another follow up that the container is still waiting to be unloaded to see what’s damaged.

[sqidd]

6 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Ugh my EVA2020 is still missing on the container that got busted up. P-Bandai just sent another follow up that the container is still waiting to be unloaded to see what’s damaged.

What’s an EVA2020?

[General Rasp]

Repaint of the Metal Build Eva 02

https://p-bandai.com/us/item/N2533582001001

[DYRL VF-1S]

4 hours ago, sqidd said:

What’s an EVA2020?

 

4 hours ago, General Rasp said:

Repaint of the Metal Build Eva 02

https://p-bandai.com/us/item/N2533582001001

Yup! And done to hype up the final movie. There was an Eva 01 2020 that came out months ago too

Edited February 2, 2021 by DYRL VF-1S

[Keith]

17 hours ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Thanks for the tip! Curious why you would say there are no true religious undertones? Even if just meant to be used as symbolism or a metaphor, there are clear religious references throughout even though I would agree that they aren't anchored in any literal way. It's been said that Hideaki Anno created this at a time when he was going through an existential crisis of sorts, so even if the story is anchored in aliens and colonizing it has philosophical/existential undertones to be sure.

Because all references are in name alone, with no actual significance being held by their counterparts in mythology. Getting caught up in any of that is a distraction from the actual story.

[sqidd]

5 hours ago, Keith said:

Because all references are in name alone, with no actual significance being held by their counterparts in mythology. Getting caught up in any of that is a distraction from the actual story.

Not trying to argue, just clarify. I used the word tone opposed to undertone for this reason. There religious/philosophical stuff is there. But since it is not integral to the story not an undertone. I think tone is an apt descriptor, but I agree can easily be confused for undertone. You could almost call it a misdirect too. That implies intention though. Only the creator would know if that was the intention. Heck, he may not even be fully conscious of it. 

This is one of the things I like about Evangelion. It's very, very complex.

[tekering]

5 hours ago, Keith said:

Because all references are in name alone, with no actual significance being held by their counterparts in mythology.

I realized that as soon as the onscreen text identified the 使徒 ("Shito," meaning "apostles") as "Angels" instead. 

If you're confusing angels with apostles, you clearly don't know (or care) what those words actually mean. 

19 minutes ago, sqidd said:

You could almost call it a misdirect too.

More like "we're using all these ancient religious allegories to suggest the story has much greater mythological significance than it actually does." 

[sqidd]

Just now, tekering said:

 

More like "we're using all these ancient religious allegories to suggest the story has much greater mythological significance than it actually does." 

That math adds up!

[easnoddy]

Yeah, there's just references to things from Abrahamic religions (Adam, Lilith, angels/messengers, Dead Sea Scrolls, guf, etc) to make the story seem bigger/more conspiratorial. 

(As I understand it) All the story is in reality is that the Earth was seeded by some alien master race, accidentally twice (white moon/black moon).  The aliens send forces (angels) to return to finish the job of eliminating people by merging all individuals into one soul (3rd impact).  Humans want to control their own destinies so they create the evas (SEELE/NERV) to fight the alien messengers as well as to control the merging process (human instrumentality project).  Episodes 25-26 are Shinji making the choice to merge all souls or to keep individuality (despite the pains that causes him personally).  Shinji rejects the merge during the 3rd impact and he and Asuka are the only humans left although it says others can regain their corporeal form if they want to (The End of Evangelion).  Or something like that.

Then Rebuild 2.22 onward confuses me.  Are the eva series created (en ridiculous masse) by SEELE to force the 4th impact?  I am in the process of a slow rewatch of everything.  I don't like that Shinji seems like such a bit character from that point on. 

[kajnrig]

2 hours ago, tekering said:

I realized that as soon as the onscreen text identified the 使徒 ("Shito," meaning "apostles") as "Angels" instead. 

If you're confusing angels with apostles, you clearly don't know (or care) what those words actually mean. 

Some of the translation quirks were intentional. The shito/Angel thing was decreed by Gainax directly IIRC. Same with the separate Japanese and English episode names (the Japanese one showing at the beginning of the show, again IIRC, and the English one showing up at the mid-episode break). Other changes were determined by the various English dub teams for localization's sake. For instance, in Japanese they use the English word "Children" to refer to both the group ("the Children") and the individual ("the First Children"); in English they use proper English grammar. (Again again IIRC, the Netflix subtitles reflect the awkward Japanese use, while its dub reflects the English use.)

[sqidd]

8 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Some of the translation quirks were intentional. The shito/Angel thing was decreed by Gainax directly IIRC. Same with the separate Japanese and English episode names (the Japanese one showing at the beginning of the show, again IIRC, and the English one showing up at the mid-episode break). Other changes were determined by the various English dub teams for localization's sake. For instance, in Japanese they use the English word "Children" to refer to both the group ("the Children") and the individual ("the First Children"); in English they use proper English grammar. (Again again IIRC, the Netflix subtitles reflect the awkward Japanese use, while its dub reflects the English use.)

So it'[s first CHILD, second CHILD, third CHILD not children? If so I have been trying way too hard to explain what I'm missing about children plural. I was looking for some sort of weird Evangelion explanation.

[DYRL VF-1S]

4 hours ago, sqidd said:

Not trying to argue, just clarify. I used the word tone opposed to undertone for this reason. There religious/philosophical stuff is there. But since it is not integral to the story not an undertone. I think tone is an apt descriptor, but I agree can easily be confused for undertone. You could almost call it a misdirect too. That implies intention though. Only the creator would know if that was the intention. Heck, he may not even be fully conscious of it. 

This is one of the things I like about Evangelion. It's very, very complex.

Yup I concur. 

3 hours ago, tekering said:

I realized that as soon as the onscreen text identified the 使徒 ("Shito," meaning "apostles") as "Angels" instead. 

If you're confusing angels with apostles, you clearly don't know (or care) what those words actually mean. 

More like "we're using all these ancient religious allegories to suggest the story has much greater mythological significance than it actually does." 

 

3 hours ago, sqidd said:

That math adds up!

Pretty much!

[Keith]

11 hours ago, easnoddy said:

Yeah, there's just references to things from Abrahamic religions (Adam, Lilith, angels/messengers, Dead Sea Scrolls, guf, etc) to make the story seem bigger/more conspiratorial. 

(As I understand it) All the story is in reality is that the Earth was seeded by some alien master race, accidentally twice (white moon/black moon).  The aliens send forces (angels) to return to finish the job of eliminating people by merging all individuals into one soul (3rd impact).  Humans want to control their own destinies so they create the evas (SEELE/NERV) to fight the alien messengers as well as to control the merging process (human instrumentality project).  Episodes 25-26 are Shinji making the choice to merge all souls or to keep individuality (despite the pains that causes him personally).  Shinji rejects the merge during the 3rd impact and he and Asuka are the only humans left although it says others can regain their corporeal form if they want to (The End of Evangelion).  Or something like that.

Then Rebuild 2.22 onward confuses me.  Are the eva series created (en ridiculous masse) by SEELE to force the 4th impact?  I am in the process of a slow rewatch of everything.  I don't like that Shinji seems like such a bit character from that point on. 

Actually no, the seeding of life was 100% intentional, as specific conditions were required to do so (Earth like planet with a moon).

The colonization on Earth only happened once (1st Impact) on two fronts (Black Moon/Lilith Egg & White Moon/Adam Egg), with both of the "Eggs" being two halves of the same being (the fully formed Lilith, or what Eva refers to as a "god" being is actually a lifeform capable of traveling through space to colonize).

Angels & humans were originally the same being, it was Yui's plan to recreate  (and become) Lilith that instigated Seele awakening the Angels & their subsequent attacks.

14 hours ago, sqidd said:

Not trying to argue, just clarify. I used the word tone opposed to undertone for this reason. There religious/philosophical stuff is there. But since it is not integral to the story not an undertone. I think tone is an apt descriptor, but I agree can easily be confused for undertone. You could almost call it a misdirect too. That implies intention though. Only the creator would know if that was the intention. Heck, he may not even be fully conscious of it. 

This is one of the things I like about Evangelion. It's very, very complex.

Tones imply themes withiteral meaning behind them, watch the show, those "tones" aren"t there. Only the names assigned to aspects in Eva.

[glane21]

Keith, where did you get those details?  I’ve seen all the Evangelion series and movies and never heard any of that in them.  

[DYRL VF-1S]

18 minutes ago, Keith said:

Actually no, the seeding of life was 100% intentional, as specific conditions were required to do so (Earth like planet with a moon).

The colonization on Earth only happened once (1st Impact) on two fronts (Black Moon/Lilith Egg & White Moon/Adam Egg), with both of the "Eggs" being two halves of the same being (the fully formed Lilith, or what Eva refers to as a "god" being is actually a lifeform capable of traveling through space to colonize).

Angels & humans were originally the same being, it was Yui's plan to recreate  (and become) Lilith that instigated Seele awakening the Angels & their subsequent attacks.

Tones imply themes withiteral meaning behind them, watch the show, those "tones" aren"t there. Only the names assigned to aspects in Eva.

 

20 hours ago, Keith said:

Because all references are in name alone, with no actual significance being held by their counterparts in mythology. Getting caught up in any of that is a distraction from the actual story.

Eh I personally think you’re trying to get into semantics. I don’t know that anyone disagrees with you, but one of the meanings of “tone” is “mood.” And that’s how I see its purpose. My real job is to actually dissect words, professionally write, etc. As wild and nonsensical as it is and as much of a distraction as it is, the religious references are there to set a mood and has a literary function. ( Though I don’t find it to be a particularly effective one.)

This is an example of how one might interpret its function as setting a tone: To make the story seem bigger/more conspiratorial.

 

11 hours ago, easnoddy said:

Yeah, there's just references to things from Abrahamic religions (Adam, Lilith, angels/messengers, Dead Sea Scrolls, guf, etc) to make the story seem bigger/more conspiratorial. 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by DYRL VF-1S

[Keith]

1 minute ago, glane21 said:

Keith, where did you get those details?  I’ve seen all the Evangelion series and movies and never heard any of that in them.  

Next time you watch, pay close attention to Fuyutski's & Yui's explanations. Keel (in Monolith projection) gets pretty specific about the Black/White moon stuff, though it's also spelled out in "The Red Cross Book" (original EOE theater pamphlet).

As Yui through her rare monologs tells her plan to become a new Lilith (god) to colonize a new world, and ensure humanity doesn't die out on Earth. Gendo's overall plan was to replace the Adam component of her Lilith form so he could go with her.

[glane21]

3 minutes ago, Keith said:

Next time you watch, pay close attention to Fuyutski's & Yui's explanations. Keel (in Monolith projection) gets pretty specific about the Black/White moon stuff, though it's also spelled out in "The Red Cross Book" (original EOE theater pamphlet).

As Yui through her rare monologs tells her plan to become a new Lilith (god) to colonize a new world, and ensure humanity doesn't die out on Earth. Gendo's overall plan was to replace the Adam component of her Lilith form so he could go with her.

Thanks

[Keith]

2 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

 

Eh I personally think you’re trying to get into semantics. I don’t know that anyone disagrees with you, but one of the meanings of “tone” is “mood.” And that’s how I see its purpose. My real job is to actually dissect words, professionally write, etc. As wild and nonsensical as it is and as much of a distraction as it is, the religious references are there to set a mood and has a literary function. ( Though I don’t find it to be a particularly effective one.)

This is an example of how one might interpret its function as setting a tone: To make the story seem bigger/more conspiratorial.

 

 

Like I said earlier, I'd suggest a watch of Fushigi no Umi Nadia, think of it as a Jules Verne themed (with literal Verne setting & "tones") prototype version of Eva's story.

[technoblue]

8 hours ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Eh I personally think you’re trying to get into semantics. I don’t know that anyone disagrees with you, but one of the meanings of “tone” is “mood.” And that’s how I see its purpose. My real job is to actually dissect words, professionally write, etc. As wild and nonsensical as it is and as much of a distraction as it is, the religious references are there to set a mood and has a literary function. ( Though I don’t find it to be a particularly effective one.)

Curious. What if we were to perform a quick exercise? Replace all the religious symbolism in NGE with references to Norse mythology. Would the plot be able to stand on its own with this change? When you say the symbolism is there "to set the mood", do you mean it implies double entendre? I'm not sure I agree. Instead, I think Anno and his creative team coopted the terminology for their own use (as others have implied already), and then incorporated these words and the basic definitions into their own world building. It's a subtle but important difference. NGE is inherently a Japanese creation, and not something that comes from the West. This is also important context. Although it's true that the audience will bring their own ideals and mores to bare when interpreting a creative work, truly understanding that work also means taking time to understand the author.

[easnoddy]

From my watchings, the existence of Adam and Lilith on the same planet was problematic.  Hence Kaoru's initial understanding, confusion and then realization of what the human's were trying to do.  That's why I called it accidental that both moons are in the same place. 

https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Seeds_of_Life

"Due to an unspecified law set down by the First Ancestral Race, more than one Seed of Life cannot exist on the same planet. "

[DYRL VF-1S]

39 minutes ago, technoblue said:

Curious. What if we were to perform a quick exercise? Replace all the religious symbolism in NGE with references to Norse mythology. Would the plot be able to stand on its own with this change? When you say the symbolism is there "to set the mood", do you mean it implies double entendre? I'm not sure I agree. Instead, I think Anno and his creative team coopted the terminology for their own use (as others have implied already), and then incorporated these words and the basic definitions into their own world building. It's a subtle but important difference. NGE is inherently a Japanese creation, and not something that comes from the West. This is also important context. Although it's true that the audience will bring their own ideals and mores to bare when interpreting a creative work, truly understanding that work also means taking time to understand the author.

We're still circling semantics. But it's a good discussion. To be clear, I'm not stating that Judeo-Christian terms/symbolism are setting a Judeo-Christian tone/mood. I'm stating that religious tones are setting a religious/mythos mood. It is quite clear to me that the Judeo-Christian terms being used serve no literal purpose and am quite aware of the Japanese / Eastern context of the creators and writers. I also have studied some of the Japanese culture as it relates to cross-cultural communication.

That being said, in your exercise, replacing the Judeo-Christian symbolism with Norse mythology symbolism would work absolutely fine in maintaining the mood because Norse mythology is still "religious" in nature or consisting of a mythos. In other words, the religious / mythos symbolism helps establish the series' ethos. It creates a mysterious mood. It's that simple.

[Keith]

16 minutes ago, easnoddy said:

From my watchings, the existence of Adam and Lilith on the same planet was problematic.  Hence Kaoru's initial understanding, confusion and then realization of what the human's were trying to do.  That's why I called it accidental that both moons are in the same place. 

https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Seeds_of_Life

"Due to an unspecified law set down by the First Ancestral Race, more than one Seed of Life cannot exist on the same planet. "

To understand Adam & Lilith, you have to look at what they specially are, and how they relate to each other.

Neither came into being autonomously, and require the presence of the other to constitute a "complete" existence. The attributes of the Adam/Angel side are an entropy free immortality (perpetual life through the S2 Engine/Core/"Fruits of life."). Attributes of the Lilith/Lilim side are perpetual reproduction/evolution & culture (be it at the cost of entropy).

Seem independently  the Adam/angel side is powerful, but extremely limited by that power. The Lilith/Lilim side is conversely incredibly fragile, but replicates in mass to make up for that fragility. Existing by themselves, neither is suited for a long range colonization, but together the Angel side is the perfect ark to transport & deposit the Lilim side, able to travel & exist infinitely until a suitable planet is found to deposit the building blocks of life.

Remember, neither side on their own was considered a "God," it required both rejoined together.

53 minutes ago, technoblue said:

Curious. What if we were to perform a quick exercise? Replace all the religious symbolism in NGE with references to Norse mythology. Would the plot be able to stand on its own with this change? When you say the symbolism is there "to set the mood", do you mean it implies double entendre? I'm not sure I agree. Instead, I think Anno and his creative team coopted the terminology for their own use (as others have implied already), and then incorporated these words and the basic definitions into their own world building. It's a subtle but important difference. NGE is inherently a Japanese creation, and not something that comes from the West. This is also important context. Although it's true that the audience will bring their own ideals and mores to bare when interpreting a creative work, truly understanding that work also means taking time to understand the author.

This!

[Keith]

10 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

We're still circling semantics. But it's a good discussion. To be clear, I'm not stating that Judeo-Christian terms/symbolism are setting a Judeo-Christian tone/mood. I'm stating that religious tones are setting a religious/mythos mood. It is quite clear to me that the Judeo-Christian terms being used serve no literal purpose and am quite aware of the Japanese / Eastern context of the creators and writers. I also have studied some of the Japanese culture as it relates to cross-cultural communication.

That being said, in your exercise, replacing the Judeo-Christian symbolism with Norse mythology symbolism would work absolutely fine in maintaining the mood because Norse mythology is still "religious" in nature or consisting of a mythos. In other words, the religious / mythos symbolism helps establish the series' ethos. It creates a mysterious mood. It's that simple.

The thing you're still pressing is that the religious terms aren't there for any mystery whatsoever. They're represented by quite literal forms of bio-super science that's reasonably defined within the story.

If I were to put a qualifier on it, it would be that (within the context of the story) all the worlds religions got it wrong, and misinterpreted a (genetic memory encoded) blueprint for how to propagate life in the universe as a religion.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Keith

[DYRL VF-1S]

3 minutes ago, Keith said:

The thing you're still pressing is that the religious terms aren't there for any mystery whatsoever. They're represented by quite literal forms of bio-super science that's reasonably defined within the story.

If I were to put a qualifier on it, it would be that (within the context of the story) all the worlds religions got it wrong, and misinterpreted a (genetic memory encoded) blueprint for how to propagate life in the universe as a religion.

I'm not missing it at all. You're missing my point. So, let me clarify yet again. I agree with you. I agree with the above.

Every writer and creator chooses to construct a story in a way that helps them tell it how they want. There is a reason that religious terminology was used over scientific or sci-fi terminology. Perhaps what you described above is the explanation for it. But that isn't a "tone" or a "mood" or an "ethos." That is a literal explanation for it.

What I'm speaking about (and what I believe @sqidd is speaking about) is a TONE or MOOD. And that mystery or religiosity still exists even in your explanation. If anything, I would take it a step further and say that for many of the characters, the sci-fi aspect with aliens and colonization - Adam and Lilith Evas being paired with a mother-soul and their children - is a religious experience. Where all the worlds' religions got it wrong, this worldview (aliens, etc.) is right. At the end of the day, religion is a backbone in our worldviews and the worldview of the characters in this story are no different. Just replace any religion you can think of with the alien concept and there you go. It just so happens that the writers choose the religious terms they did.

There is no argument here because I'm not disagreeing with you. And if you care to argue with me, at least be on the same subject of tone, mood, ethos, etc. as a literary device. In fact, one could argue that the tone and mood are a bit different literary devices. I would probably agree but in this case they are an extension of each other. Here's a good explanation: https://writersedit.com/fiction-writing/literary-devices/literary-devices-mood/

[Lexomatic]

IIRC, Anno is on record that he used Christian and Kabbalistic imagery and terminology because "rule of cool" -- since neither tradition was widespread in Japan (c.1995) they lent the show an air of exoticism. Which I agree would be classified as "mood" (aesthetics) but not "tone" (theme). (Evangelion is hardly alone among anime in "let's use Christian-style terminology, hierarchy, costumes and architecture, but with zero connection to Christian doctrine.") Anybody who is familiar with those concepts -- i.e., the unplanned-for Western audience -- is then predisposed to look for connections and subtext that simply don't exist.

Certain explanations provided by the characters (Keel, Fuyutski, Ritsuko) can easily be dismissed as speculation, and therefore subject to revision in later chapters of the saga. If SEELE does know what's going on, that implies the alien progenitors included a manual with one or both of the "moons," and it was intended for the eventual genetic product, and could therefore be translated by them -- but the fact that only one group has got a hold of it (instead of the manual literally growing on trees where anyone can get a copy) implies a flaw in the progenitors' plan. (Which is kinda interesting itself; see also the Alien prequels.) It's easier to classify all this as "word of god" from Anno.

"Congratulations on being a sentient species spawned by Panspermia Project, Seed #743. The ephemeris indicates 12.72 galactic rotations have occurred since seeding of your planet; for further information, tune to macronic bands 43908 through 43956. At this juncture, please select from the following teleological destinies for your civilization ...".

Dramatically, there's a problem with "the characters are desperately confused until a late-series infodump of the setting materials" (as opposed to "they figure things out by their own efforts") but that's a recurring trope in anime. For that matter, it's how murder-mysteries are usually structured.

[DYRL VF-1S]

16 minutes ago, Lexomatic said:

IIRC, Anno is on record that he used Christian and Kabbalistic imagery and terminology because "rule of cool" -- since neither tradition was widespread in Japan (c.1995) they lent the show an air of exoticism. Which I agree would be classified as "mood" (aesthetics) but not "tone" (theme). (Evangelion is hardly alone among anime in "let's use Christian-style terminology, hierarchy, costumes and architecture, but with zero connection to Christian doctrine.") Anybody who is familiar with those concepts -- i.e., the unplanned-for Western audience -- is then predisposed to look for connections and subtext that simply don't exist.

Certain explanations provided by the characters (Keel, Fuyutski, Ritsuko) can easily be dismissed as speculation, and therefore subject to revision in later chapters of the saga. If SEELE does know what's going on, that implies the alien progenitors included a manual with one or both of the "moons," and it was intended for the eventual genetic product, and could therefore be translated by them -- but the fact that only one group has got a hold of it (instead of the manual literally growing on trees where anyone can get a copy) implies a flaw in the progenitors' plan. (Which is kinda interesting itself; see also the Alien prequels.) It's easier to classify all this as "word of god" from Anno.

"Congratulations on being a sentient species spawned by Panspermia Project, Seed #743. The ephemeris indicates 12.72 galactic rotations have occurred since seeding of your planet; for further information, tune to macronic bands 43908 through 43956. At this juncture, please select from the following teleological destinies for your civilization ...".

Dramatically, there's a problem with "the characters are desperately confused until a late-series infodump of the setting materials" (as opposed to "they figure things out by their own efforts") but that's a recurring trope in anime. For that matter, it's how murder-mysteries are usually structured.

Love the input here - and not to be argumentative at all but for the sake of clarity - Mood, tone, and theme are different literary devices. Tone lends to Mood. Tone is expressed through the characters' thoughts, words, actions etc. It reflects the author's attitude toward a situation, event, etc. Anno has also been on record stating that he was depressed during the writing - an existential crisis of sorts - and even used a psychology book to reference as he was writing the later portions of the story. This tone is clear to me in how the characters express themselves; particularly toward the end. And it lends to the overall mysterious, exotic, religious, mythos, philosophical mood.

Totally agree that the religious terms have nothing to do with the theme other than the mystery of it.  

Edit: The theme here IMO is aliens colonizing earth and humans' response to it/trying to understand it.

It's all connected and likely why there is a debate on semantics here as we are all circling around the same thoughts but emphasizing different aspects of the story.

Edited February 3, 2021 by DYRL VF-1S

[technoblue]

3 hours ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Love the input here - and not to be argumentative at all but for the sake of clarity - Mood, tone, and theme are different literary devices. Tone lends to Mood. Tone is expressed through the characters' thoughts, words, actions etc. It reflects the author's attitude toward a situation, event, etc. Anno has also been on record stating that he was depressed during the writing - an existential crisis of sorts - and even used a psychology book to reference as he was writing the later portions of the story. This tone is clear to me in how the characters express themselves; particularly toward the end. And it lends to the overall mysterious, exotic, religious, mythos, philosophical mood.

Totally agree that the religious terms have nothing to do with the theme other than the mystery of it.  

Edit: The theme here IMO is aliens colonizing earth and humans' response to it/trying to understand it.

It's all connected and likely why there is a debate on semantics here as we are all circling around the same thoughts but emphasizing different aspects of the story.

As a writer myself, I'm very keen on the limitations of the medium to convey complex ideas, thoughts, and feelings. Two people can approach the same page with a completely different understanding of the text, even when the author leaves their own liner notes! If that same author is trying to create something while distressed or grieving, then the connection with the audience may become strained unintentionally. 

The debate did begin over semantics, but it was over the semantics of word choice: tone versus undertone. The way I read it, this is how we got into the tangent about literary devices. In parallel, we were also having another discussion about context: NGE's core plot and how religious symbolism may or may not factor into that plot. The result of that discussion (for now) is that one's context can very much alter one's perception of the story and its themes.

Anyway, that's just how I see it from my side of the screen.

Edited February 3, 2021 by technoblue

[anime52k8]

well this was out of nowhere: https://www.amiami.com/eng/detail/?scode=TOY-RBT-5785&rank=

 

[DYRL VF-1S]

43 minutes ago, technoblue said:

As a writer myself, I'm very keen on the limitations of the medium to convey complex ideas, thoughts, and feelings. Two people can approach the same page with a completely different understanding of the text, even when the author leaves their own liner notes! If that same author is trying to create something while distressed or grieving, then the connection with the audience may become strained unintentionally. 

The debate did begin over semantics, but it was over the semantics of word choice: tone versus undertone. The way I read it, this is how we got into the tangent about literary devices. In parallel, we were also having another discussion about context: NGE's core plot and how religious symbolism may or may not factor into that plot. The result of that discussion (for now) is that one's context can very much alter one's perception of the story and its themes.

Anyway, that's just how I see it from my side of the screen.

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. I think you approached it respectfully and openly for discussion. So hopefully my direct response to you just clarified/expounded on my intention and answered your question. The issue from my side of the screen is when posters post in absolutes. It's fine, but in order to have a real discussion, we need to agree on context of that discussion. For example, let's make sure we understand tone, undertone, mood, and theme in the same way. If we don't, it's a pointless discussion. And that's where I think the discussion went. We're not all speaking the same language. But when we align those definitions, I believe there are more points in agreement than disagreement. The Evangelion is an incredibly interesting anime. And the author has only hinted toward meaning while suggesting that the anime / manga is quite open to interpretation.

I think it's super important for people to understand that art is often intended to be open to interpretation regardless of what it means to the author. Often, its only goal is to elicit an emotional response. And we all have had an emotional response seemingly worthy of passionate debate - Anno did his job. Evangelion elicits a strong emotional response. And it seems that you are insinuating the same with your feedback:

44 minutes ago, technoblue said:

The result of that discussion (for now) is that one's context can very much alter one's perception of the story and its themes.

 

That being said, it would be interesting for @Keith or others to explain this from Anno:

Quote

Anno went on a 45-minute tirade about the show’s many clear allegories and how they drive the characters and influence the show’s message. “It is not by pure chance that the Eva units are derived from an Angel named Adam,” he said, “any moron should be able to tell this references Adam and Eve. Evangelion Unit-01 standing as the final testament to humanity’s existence and Eve being one of the first humans in the Bible is not just coincidence. Then there is Lilith who is suffering on the cross pieced by the Lance of Longius, how much more obvious do I need to be?”

https://www.animemaru.com/hideaki-anno-admits-some-of-evangelions-religious-symbolism-may-have-deeper-meaning/

I think it's absolutely fine to dismiss the religious symbolism because I agree that this particular anime lends to open interpretation, but "how much more obvious" does it need to be that the tone and mood are very much anchored in religious symbolism. And further, it would appear that the author's intention had even deeper meaning tied more literally to Judeo-Christian imagery. This article is worth a read and consideration.

Edited February 3, 2021 by DYRL VF-1S

[no3Ljm]

 

[no3Ljm]

DynAction Evangelion Production Model-02

 

Robot Damashii [Side Eva] Evangelion New Unit 2 α
https://tamashii.jp/item/13583/

[sqidd]

2 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

DynAction Evangelion Production Model-02

 

Robot Damashii [Side Eva] Evangelion New Unit 2 α
https://tamashii.jp/item/13583/

Forgive me, I'm not seeing the info. When do these go on sale? Thanks!

[General Rasp]

15 minutes ago, sqidd said:

Forgive me, I'm not seeing the info. When do these go on sale? Thanks!

So I don't think Bandai has released a pre-order date for the Dynaction Eva 2 yet, only that information will be coming soon.

The Robot Spirits however is available for pre-order here https://p-bandai.jp/item/item-1000145955/?_ga=2.70193875.251868109.1615211245-1576291112.1614000627 but it is P-Bandai. Hopefully P-Bandai USA will offer pre-orders.