Neflix's live action Cowboy Bebop

[danth]

On 10/28/2021 at 12:48 PM, TangledThorns said:

Just started watching the Cowboy Bebop anime for the first time. It's well animated and fun but don't see why people think its the best. Will that realization come the further I get in the series?

It never came for me.

On 10/29/2021 at 7:10 PM, jenius said:

The whole domestic violence rapey subplot could probably use some tweaking...

I've always felt that Guld and Isamu are both unlikable characters. You need something to tell you to feel okay when Isamu wins, I guess. Having Guld be an attempted rapist - revealed through flash back no less - is the most ham-fisted possible way to do that.

So my point is yeah I agree.

Edited October 31, 2021 by danth

[pengbuzz]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:19 PM, danth said:

It never came for me.

I've always felt that Guld and Isamu are both unlikable characters. You need something to tell you to feel okay when Isamu wins, I guess. Having Guld be an attempted rapist - revealed through flash back no less - is the most ham-fisted possible way to do that.

So my point is yeah I agree.

While Macross Plus is an interesting story that I found captivating (I really like the soundtrack, parts 1 and 2), I admit that most of the main characters seem to come across as likable or even relatable. Isamu was an all-out meathead who had the emotional intellect of an avocado, Guld was just plain creepy and a bit disturbing. In Myung's case, I'm willing to give her some leeway, as she's repressing a few hundred tons of emotions and some nasty memories.

But that said, my take on the rest of them (my opinion only; your mileage will most likely differ, and probably get more MPG to the gallon to boot!):

General Gomez: Creepy old general who "overlooks" incidents that nearly killed a pilot, all for the sake of expediency.

Col. Millard Johnson: duplicitous creep, willing to cover up the near-mortal rivalry of two pilots ( in apparent collaboration with Gen. Gomez),  just to beat out UN SPACY's unmanned fighter.

Jan Neumann: snarky genius kid who never demonstrates any redeeming qualities.

Lucy (definitely not in the sky, especially with any diamonds): Bitchy, shrieking and mouthy. States the obvious at times and ant others, is little more than wallpaper.

Raymond Marley: typical "producer" type who is self-absorbed and utterly clueless.

Marge Gueldoa: Let's face it- we all cheered when this jackass took a long walk off a short Macross.

About the only two characters who seemed any sort of likeable to me were Kate and Morgan Masseau (black woman with short curly hair and her husband).

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by pengbuzz

[sqidd]

Boy, I'm probably going to catch grief for this....

I finished the anime last night. I really don't understand all the love for the show. It was entertaining, but not for a second did I think I was watching something special. I was actually pretty disinterested by the time it wrapped up. The only reason I kept watching was the time I alreday had invested.

I'm going to speculate that a lot of people saw it when they were quite a bit younger and didn't have the same expectations, life experience, perspective, etc that they do now. But they have the emotional response that they did when they were younger. For me Star Wars is a perfect example. When I was a kid I thought it was the most amazing thing in the world. At 50yrs old I don't think I would be that impressed (if I were watching it for the first time).

I'm not concerned about the Netflix adaptation at all. They're certainly not re-painting the Mona Lisa.

I give it a 6.5/10.

 

 

[jenius]

Watching pivotal works outside the time they caused the pivot will, understandably, diminish their returns. It's not just about your age at the time you viewed them, it's also about how things changed after they came. Star Wars is a great example. It was mimicked and studied and the whole genre morphed because of it to the point where, coming in brand new, you might easily find it inferior to many of the films that benefitted from its existence. Of course, there is also something to be said for being in the target demographic when you consume the content. 

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, sqidd said:

Boy, I'm probably going to catch grief for this....

I finished the anime last night. I really don't understand all the love for the show. It was entertaining, but not for a second did I think I was watching something special. I was actually pretty disinterested by the time it wrapped up. The only reason I kept watching was the time I alreday had invested.

Honestly, this was my first reaction, too. I purposely did NOT watch it until several years after its release, partly because I was an insufferable contrarian, partly because I was being hipster as crap, . "Pfft, Cowboy Bebop? Dragonball? I was into anime before it was cool. Watch some Tekkaman and get on my level, scrubs."

When I finally did watch it, I too was left thinking, "That's it?" I was ready for this life-changing pièce de résistance, and instead it was... what, five episodes of fairly standard crime drama interspersed between 20 episodes of standalone ie completely unmemorable filler? Booooooo!!!

It was and remains unique in the world of anime, though, and the music has definitely left an impression on me. A few rewatches later, I can better appreciate what I've had to read into it in order to make it enjoyable Um... I mean, its nuances.

1 hour ago, sqidd said:

I'm going to speculate that a lot of people saw it when they were quite a bit younger and didn't have the same expectations, life experience, perspective, etc that they do now. But they have the emotional response that they did when they were younger. For me Star Wars is a perfect example. When I was a kid I thought it was the most amazing thing in the world. At 50yrs old I don't think I would be that impressed (if I were watching it for the first time).

This is a bit tangential, but I've always loved the different techniques they used in the original trilogy to get the lightsaber effects. Some of them were old, tried and true methods even for the time, and others were painstaking frame by frame manipulation of the film by hand. There's a real... I dunno, a "texture" that results, similar to hand-drawn cels vs. digital, that I greatly prefer over the subsequent trilogies' depictions. Even the latest trilogy with their fancy shapes and warbling effects and actual lighting effects I find to take away some of the allure of lightsabers as the original trilogy made me imagine them to have.

[kajnrig]

Apparently people have already watched it despite a Nov. 19 premiere date? Was there something like a media early-access showing or something?

Well, regardless, impressions can be found here. Seems generally positive: 

 

[azrael]

6 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Apparently people have already watched it despite a Nov. 19 premiere date? Was there something like a media early-access showing or something?

Well, regardless, impressions can be found here. Seems generally positive:

Usually media have press screeners 1-2 weeks ahead of release. I tend not to give too much weight to these since they flood the sub-Reddit and Twitter-verse as soon as they walk out of the screener. The problem with "TV" series is the 1st episode is intended to draw you in. What about the rest of the series? Are the filler episodes worth watching or do they drag the show down?

[Big s]

It sounds like they have seen the full season. Still hopefully a good show. 

[sh9000]

 

[sqidd]

I watched the first few episodes. The only word I can muster is "soulless". 

[Mog]

Only two eps in, and I have mixed feelings already.

Some of the banter is fun, especially between the three mains.

But not feeling Vicious.  At.  All.  Doesn’t seem sinister enough.  Too bugged eyed.  And looks like a Malfoy or Targaryen reject.

Also, the more they show of Julia, the less appealing she becomes.

They should have adopted the “less is more” stance with Vicious and Julia.

Also, I can see the limitations of the filming/budget.  The outside scenes feel off and don’t feel immersive enough, like you can tell where the background is CGI’ed or added in.  

There aren’t any smooth, seamless transitions between live action and CG, like when one character’s ship gets shot up, cut to Spike’s reaction, and then the next scene shows that shot up character drifting in space.

Or when John Cho is in a fight scene, there’s a lot of cuts and edits.  I guess we got spoiled with the minimally cut John Wick, The Raid, and Netflix Marvel fight scenes.

For those who have watched the anime, I peeked at the episode list, and it looks like this “season” ends around Ballad of Fallen Angels.

I’ll probably check out the rest and give a full impression once I finish the season.

[sqidd]

8 minutes ago, Mog said:

But not feeling Vicious.  At.  All.  Doesn’t seem sinister enough.  Too bugged eyed.  And looks like a Malfoy or Targaryen reject.

 

Yeah, Vicious............isn't vicious. He seems like someone acting like they're scary, opposed to actually being scary.

[Keith]

I can't help but feel they wanted to do a Robert Rodriguez take on Bebop, but for some foolish reason didn't pay Robert Rodriguez to do Bebop.

 

Also, no "Real Folk Blues." Why does Netflix hate end credits so much?

[Mog]

Because Netflix wants you to jump right into that next episode without a second thought.

[Keith]

I see what you guys are talking about with Vicious. The guy they got looks more like a bootleg Iggy Pop. Real Iggy Pop even at his age would have been far more intimidating.

[Big s]

I liked Iggy as the coffee zombie in the dead don’t die. I think he usually dies in movies 

[Roy Focker]

It's out?  Guess I better get Netflix for a just a month.

[Scyla]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:42 PM, sqidd said:

Boy, I'm probably going to catch grief for this....

I finished the anime last night. I really don't understand all the love for the show. It was entertaining, but not for a second did I think I was watching something special. I was actually pretty disinterested by the time it wrapped up. The only reason I kept watching was the time I alreday had invested.

I'm going to speculate that a lot of people saw it when they were quite a bit younger and didn't have the same expectations, life experience, perspective, etc that they do now. But they have the emotional response that they did when they were younger. For me Star Wars is a perfect example. When I was a kid I thought it was the most amazing thing in the world. At 50yrs old I don't think I would be that impressed (if I were watching it for the first time).

I'm not concerned about the Netflix adaptation at all. They're certainly not re-painting the Mona Lisa.

I give it a 6.5/10.

 

 

I think it’s well loved because it was one of the first anime that ran at a major television station during prime time and had a good dub as well, at least in my country.

 Thus to many it was the first exposure to a „cartoon“ that dealt with mature themes and looked stylish and cool with great music. So for many adolescent teenagers it had a massive impact.

This could also be the reason why the show is not remembered the same way in Japan as in the West. It just wasn’t a formative experience.

[Rock]

Echo'ing the Vicious and Julia statements. Less was way more. Not only does Vicious seem less of a badguy but, they kinda duped Julia into a poor damsel role and out of the bad ass blond who later gives Faye a run in the bounty game.

I'm also a bit annoyed that some of my favorite episodes have been butchered up into quick bits like the Teddy Bomber being an after thought of the episode. In a 24min anime  we see him bombing 4-5 places and 2-3 interactions with Spike/Jet. In the live action it was just a clip on a tv, a 2 second chase down one hall and then the location of the final bit which was just background for Spike and Jet's argument and syndicate drama. 

 

Still glad we have the show though. Sure it's hard to accept it but, it is still fun in it's own campy way. They really nailed the mood, atmosphere music and space themes.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rock

[sh9000]

 

[Mog]

So, I read some spoilers that are making me question continuing on with the series.

They keep making Vicious look like a putz.  

And not sure how a key change they made will make the story better.

[Keith]

Ok, finished the season. While I agree with some reviews that they tried too hard to hit some of the popular episode beats without spending enough time on those actual stories, overall I liked it.

Make no doubt about it, they absolutely ruined Vicious, and the only way to even remotely redeem that choice will be to:

Spoiler

Double down on their twist of Julia and have her be the one Spike has his final showdown with. Turning Vicious into a tantrumming spoiled daddy's boy has killed any gravitas in him remaining the big baddie. They also seem to have killed his Titan war backstory too, so being demoted to Julia's puppet should be his end.

It was nice to see Adrian Barbeau in s spot on piece of casting though. The change from apes to trees was also an understandable practical change. John Noble seemed to have been wasted in comparison, but it was still nice to see him. 

There were interesting changes to Faye & her back story, but overall they work. I just wish they didn't waste all of the fun to be had in finding a betamax player. Ein's data dog abilities have also (so far) been glanced over:

Spoiler

And replaced with being part of the project that created Peirot Le Fou, a 100% unnecessary mesh that they'd better make up for in the second season. Even if Faye freaking out about the Eye projection was hilarious.

I expect some ground to be made up without all the pandemic filming restrictions when the second season happens.

[technoblue]

The live action version is all right, but is definitely abridged and takes some license on the events from the anime. I'm not a fan of all the character changes either (Vicious being the most unfortunate). So far, I've watched half of the new series straight through. Now that I'm up to Faye's backstory, I've decided to watch the anime again to refresh my memory of things as I keep going.

For instance, comparing live episode 1 to animated episode 1, I'm surprised by what was left out. 

Spoiler

In the anime, Spike and Jet are given more time to be actual bounty hunters and prowl around the Tijuana colony looking for Asimov and Katarina. Spike is even shown to be a decent pick-pocket, which helps him set up a second meeting with Asimov (this second meeting is completely cut in the live action version). Luckily, the creative team kept a live version of the scene where Spike chats up Katarina.

I'm not a fan of how Asimov's character was toned down in the live version. In the anime, he is played dark and cruel. His desperation to leave his syndicate is fueled by his own addiction to the vials that he's hawking. This creates something of a no-win scenario for Katarina, and is a bit of foreshadowing to other main character events that are realized much later. Spike tries to give her a lifeline in both iterations but she ignores him and is left to a tragic fate. I'm not a fan of the live version of these events, though. The changes lose some of the emotional weight. 

Anyway, it's just my opinion. I thought the anime had a good mix of story elements already. 

 

[Roy Focker]

Starting on the 3rd episode.  It's not bad but it feels cheap.  Guess after the Mandalorian I thought it was possible to have sci-fi on a TV budget.  They've got some good performances and some not so good performances.  The action just seem very basic.  This gives me the impression of a really well made fan film.  It would be the talk of Internet and fans would say give this guy a budget to make this a series. 

[Mog]

Question for you @Keith:

Spoiler

Does the twist with Julia make “sense”?  Doesn’t it just kill the whole story-path for Spike now?

To give an analogy, this twist feels like if someone had Vader kill the Emperor during ROTJ (during the “I am defenseless;  strike me down!” scene).  And then had Vader tempt Luke again to the Dark side.

You go from a beautiful story arc with Luke and his dad to a “Now how the hell do you end this in a fitting and satisfying way?”

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Mog

[Keith]

1 hour ago, Mog said:

Question for you @Keith:

  Hide contents

Does the twist with Julia make “sense”?  Doesn’t it just kill the whole story-path for Spike now?

To give an analogy, this twist feels like if someone had Vader kill the Emperor during ROTJ (during the “I am defenseless;  strike me down!” scene).  And then had Vader tempt Luke again to the Dark side.

You go from a beautiful story arc with Luke and his dad to a “Now how the hell do you end this in a fitting and satisfying way?”

 

It's conditional on how they handle it in season 2.

Spoiler

Meaning, if Julia does become the final antagonist, yes there is a serious question of her fighting skill level, but I can just as easily see a situation where spike storms in and is worn down by an army of grunts, still gets close to her, and let's her believe that she has the upper hand in being manipulated by his love for her only to kill her as she's trying to kill him.

While your analogy is valid, the fact remains that the power "that one woman" can hold over you is far more blinding than the power a parent can hold over you. Even to a realist like Spike. So yeah, I'd but it.

At the very least, there is a beauty in that, though it wouldn't be the bro-down we're used to. Also, I officially lay claim on the term "bro-down."

In other news, between Bebop premiering this weekend & the Macross soundtracks going up for sale on iTunea tonight, I can't believe it just hit me now that the singer of "After, in the Dark" and "The Real Folk Blues" is the same person. I Feel so stupid!

Edited November 21, 2021 by Keith

[sqidd]

I'm about half way though. I'm not impressed at all. As someone mentioned above, it feels "cheap". Not just in budget, but in "soul". I'll watch it all the way through a bit at a time while eating meals and maybe a half episode at a time when I jump in bed. Definitely not something that I am at all inclined to binge watch. It's more "background noise" than anything else to me. It's a shame. I had high hopes.

The anime was way, way, way better.

[onnasake]

Can't imagine this soft, mushy turd of a show getting green-lit for a second season.

Every moment of this thing was purely odious.

[jenius]

The first episode was alright. It had some fun moments. Characterizations are actually better than I expected. I thought it might get too moody and use the live action setting to be more adult but was pleasantly surprised it didn't. Some of the flying sequences feel a little ridiculous but that's my only real knock so far. Maybe that's what you guys are saying when you say "cheap". The counter to that argument though is the type of show they're going for... it's a pop show, not a scifi opera or drama. The anime twisted some darker drama elements into a poppy show and they're trying to emulate that. Just think of sort of the 70s cheesiness of the intros to keep you grounded. 

[Dangard Ace]

Just finished watching the live version.  As someone who watched it when it aired, then on DVD then when it was released in bluray I’m okay with what they did.  It was fun and I liked it.  Not going to repeat what everyone’s already says about Vicious  and Julia.  
 

Faye felt more brat than sexy bad ass.  Could have been the directors intention as a friend said she was great in Jurassic World.   Guess I’ll have to rewatch that.   After watching No Time to Die I think Ana de Armas would have been a great Faye.

 

 Twist  ending has me hoping for more Ein.  Ein needs to shine if they make a season 2.  

[M'Kyuun]

21 minutes ago, Dangard Ace said:

Just finished watching the live version.  As someone who watched it when it aired, then on DVD then when it was released in bluray I’m okay with what they did.  It was fun and I liked it.  Not going to repeat what everyone’s already says about Vicious  and Julia.  
 

Faye felt more brat than sexy bad ass.  Could have been the directors intention as a friend said she was great in Jurassic World.   Guess I’ll have to rewatch that.   After watching No Time to Die I think Ana de Armas would have been a great Faye.

 

 Twist  ending has me hoping for more Ein.  Ein needs to shine if they make a season 2.  

Started watching last night with the wife and made it through ep 6. Agree with consensus on Vicious- more Malfoy than Vicious. Would rather he be a quieter, smarter, more deliberate bad guy. I always pictured him younger, and better looking than Alex Hassel, with his jutting chin and 5 o'clock shadow, who plays him. Also, I think he'd be more effective if you could tell the wheels were always turning, even if he's not saying anything; his actions should prove his name more than his words, and his actions should be cold, ruthless, and calculated, not overly emotional.  More Blade, and less Kylo Ren.

While Jet and Spike feel pretty close to the mark (heck, Mustafa Shakir even sounds like Beau Billingslea in his Jet portrayal), Faye feels a bit off. "Bratty" is a good descriptor. It feels more CW or Sy-Fy than Cowboy Bebop, if that makes sense. The constant barrage of obscenity laced put-downs , while funny in their own right, just doesn't match the animated character to me. The self-indulgent and self-assured parts of her personality are there though. And Daniella's cute, so there's that.

As to the world, I see people complaining, but visually, it works for me. I like the juxtaposition of retro and futuristic, much like the anime. Given they're working with a tv budget, the prod values and SFX are done well, IMHO. They nailed the Swordfish, which is a must in this series. Faye's Red Tail has only a brief appearance thus far, but it looked like the Red Tail, so I'm happy. Truth be told, I was always more a fan of Faye's ride than Spike's, so I'm hoping we'll see more of it in the next few eps.

Special mention of Christine Dunford, who plays Whitney Matsumoto, Faye's ersatz mother and all-around master thief. She's just fun to watch in every scene she's in, and when Whitney and Faye play off each other, it makes for some great frenemy interaction.  Good casting there.

I didn't really have an issue with Julia. Her role, like that of Vicious, is expanded here, and I think the writers wanted to flesh them out. Needless to say, the popular consensus isn't favorable of either.  Julia's fine to me; not feeling Vicious at all. 

Ana de Armas- hadn't thought of her, but I loved her all-too-brief appearance in the last Bond film, as well as in Blade Runner 2049 and Knives Out. I haven't seen her play a self-absorbed character like Faye, so it's hard for me to mentally place her in that role. But, she's a good actress, so I imagine she would have conformed to the character.  Seeing her in Faye's traditional anime outfit wouldn't have hurt my feelings, either. 

Despite owning the anime, both series and movie, I haven't watched either in a number of years, and my memory is a bit hazy, so I may be misremembering the characters a bit. My memory is crap on my best day, so as my wife would say, no shocker there. we're planning on rewatching the anime after we finish the live action, and I'm glad we're both going into the Netflix show relatively fresh. My wife remembers more than I do, but she's forgotten a bit too, so I'm glad we started the new show without the taint of recent memory of the anime, as we're enjoying it for what it is. The anime is its own thing, and I'm glad they're not making the live action a carbon copy; I'd rather they do some things new, while peppering references to the anime throughout. That's fine to me, so long as the salient aspects are still there. From what I've seen so far, it's pretty close, and I'm enjoying it.

[Keith]

I would watch Ana de Armas read the dictionary, paint a house,  fill out paperwork, etc. Suffice it yo say they could have cast her as Jet or Spike & I wouldn't have minded.

[blackconvoy_D01]

Watched it and I liked it alot- especially towards the end, eps: 8, 9 and 10 were the strongest. 1, 4, 5 and 6 were good. 3 and 7 were meh to ok. 2 was my least favorite. The soundtrack was really good to.

[sqidd]

4 hours ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

Watched it and I liked it alot- especially towards the end, eps: 8, 9 and 10 were the strongest. 1, 4, 5 and 6 were good. 3 and 7 were meh to ok. 2 was my least favorite. The soundtrack was really good to.

I'm on 9. I agree it's getting better. 

Vicious still sucks though. Super hard. The Kylo Ren description of him above is spot on.

[blackconvoy_D01]

32 minutes ago, sqidd said:

I'm on 9. I agree it's getting better. 

Vicious still sucks though. Super hard. The Kylo Ren description of him above is spot on.

I wonder if their interpretation of his bravado in the anime was posturing and compensation. After all he wouldn't go up against Spike or Gren solo. Maybe they saw him as they portray him the show as a weakling.

Edited November 22, 2021 by blackconvoy_D01