Neflix's live action Cowboy Bebop

[blackconvoy_D01]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

It's the noisy hipster crowd who complain to complain and hate just to hate that got it canceled.

It was a little of both. I only talk about the dusty ones like us mainly because; out of the interactions (net and IRL) the younger ppl liked it more and most of us dusty ones hated it.

[technoblue]

I don't know. I'm a little suspicious whenever Netflix is quick to cancel a show but they are doing it more often these days. Sadly, live action Cowboy Bebop has only been up on US Netflix for three weeks? I guess they are giving certain shows a shorter window to prove that they perform well.

[Big s]

I kinda figured it wasn’t gonna get renewed, but I think that a second season could have been good especially if they took the complaints about season one and learned from their mistakes. The actors and creators definitely cared about what they were doing even if it was a bit of a fail. You could definitely feel the love they put into the show and it is too bad they won’t get the chance to improve 

[Marzan]

As a huge, huge Cowboy Bebop fan, I've been too afraid to start watching. Will probably do when some time has passed and I can judge it on it's own terms without the twitter/Reddit rants/hype rolling around. SO I cannot comment on the quality/lack of of this show.

The cancellation tho, Netflix just takes waay to little time before they axe things.

[Keith]

1 hour ago, Marzan said:

As a huge, huge Cowboy Bebop fan, I've been too afraid to start watching. Will probably do when some time has passed and I can judge it on it's own terms without the twitter/Reddit rants/hype rolling around. SO I cannot comment on the quality/lack of of this show.

The cancellation tho, Netflix just takes waay to little time before they axe things.

I'm still holding out hope that they'll choose to finish it with a movie or two.

[Mog]

Well, they were planting the seeds to pick up the story from the anime movie.

I’d love to see them break the bank to animate that dog fight with the Swordfish II.

And the Vincent vs. Spike fight is still one of my personal faves.

AND Gotta Knock a Little Harder is one hell of a song too!

[Knight26]

While it wasn't perfect, and the change in tone to more of a grindhouse feel, it was still good and fun.  What is disappointing is that this was cancelled after a single season whereas that piece of crap Another Life got three seasons.  Yes, the third season did somewhat redeem it, but first season especially was complete garbage.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 12/9/2021 at 7:03 PM, Mog said:

Welp, see ya space cowboy:

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/cowboy-bebop-canceled-netflix-1235130359/

Eh... sadly, an early cancellation was always the most likely outcome for this project.

Live-action adaptations of anime or manga produced in the west have never been commercially successful.  It doesn't seem to matter much how iconic or successful the original is or how much money the studio can afford to throw at it.  Some things just don't seem to translate well enough to be viable.  I'm inclined to suspect going for titles that already have brand awareness in the west hurts more than it helps since the show/movie then has to contend with the audience's memories of the original in addition to trying to succeed on its own merits.

IMO, familiarity definitely hurt Netflix's Cowboy Bebop.  I'm one episode in, and while it's not bad... or at least not agonizingly so... I'm not sure I could call it good either.  The cast is clearly putting in a sincere effort but the writing, choreography, and effects just aren't there.  My viewing experience as a Cowboy Bebop fan is a lot like having someone disguised unconvincingly as a family friend show up at my home uninvited and having to decide if it's worth the effort to call them on their dodgy impersonation before showing them out.

Netflix seems to be making a lot of its keep-or-cancel decisions for its original or sponsored shows based on international market performance these days.  Like Star Trek: Discovery, which did OK in the US but was poorly received globally.  Netflix was only prevented from cancelling the series after just one season by CBS threatening to sue them over it.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... sadly, an early cancellation was always the most likely outcome for this project.

Live-action adaptations of anime or manga produced in the west have never been commercially successful.  It doesn't seem to matter much how iconic or successful the original is or how much money the studio can afford to throw at it.  Some things just don't seem to translate well enough to be viable.  I'm inclined to suspect going for titles that already have brand awareness in the west hurts more than it helps since the show/movie then has to contend with the audience's memories of the original in addition to trying to succeed on its own merits.

IMO, familiarity definitely hurt Netflix's Cowboy Bebop.  I'm one episode in, and while it's not bad... or at least not agonizingly so... I'm not sure I could call it good either.  The cast is clearly putting in a sincere effort but the writing, choreography, and effects just aren't there.  My viewing experience as a Cowboy Bebop fan is a lot like having someone disguised unconvincingly as a family friend show up at my home uninvited and having to decide if it's worth the effort to call them on their dodgy impersonation before showing them out.

Netflix seems to be making a lot of its keep-or-cancel decisions for its original or sponsored shows based on international market performance these days.  Like Star Trek: Discovery, which did OK in the US but was poorly received globally.  Netflix was only prevented from cancelling the series after just one season by CBS threatening to sue them over it.

Understood on all counts; it's kind of like when you read an awesome novel and they make a movie of it. Only in this case, real life just cannot do what anime visualizes so well.  I had a slight hope that it could do well, but while the actors did the best they could, but the feel of the original just wasn't there.

[roboemo]

So do you think this would be Christopher Yost's lowest point.

[Big s]

I think that another problem is that even though it’s got a sci-fi backdrop, the anime felt more live action than most. The live action version went an awkwardly surreal route and ended up too cartoonish, so it just didn’t quite look right. Comic books are great, but sometimes you can’t make a movie look like the comic if you’re going for a serious show or movie adaptation. It’s sort of an interesting experiment with this show that unfortunately didn’t get the results. 

This all makes me wonder about what kind of direction the live action gundam will go with. If they don’t have the look of something serious and have a stupid bad guy, then that project will also fail. Maybe the best thing to do is to just hope for live action stuff that is inspired by anime, but not be anime.

[JB0]

Just now, Big s said:

Maybe the best thing to do is to just hope for live action stuff that is inspired by anime, but not be anime.

Like Stealth?

[Big s]

I don’t think stealth is the example I was trying to set. Maybe more like the original matrix where there’s definitely anime inspiration and turning out pretty good 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Understood on all counts; it's kind of like when you read an awesome novel and they make a movie of it. Only in this case, real life just cannot do what anime visualizes so well.  I had a slight hope that it could do well, but while the actors did the best they could, but the feel of the original just wasn't there.

To be honest, I don't think it's even necessarily anything visual.

It's that the writers and producers working on these projects can never seem to leave well enough alone.  They always feel compelled to mess with the original story and/or setting in some way, and it's usually detrimental.  Like whatever the hell the coked-up writers of Dragonball Evolution were thinking.  Or how Speed Racer's writers wasted precious screen time on a nonsense subplot that tried to fake out Racer X's identity.  Or Ghost in the Shell's writers devoting fairly half the movie to a convoluted subplot intended to justify whitewashing the very explicitly Japanese Motoko Kusanagi.  

Cowboy Bebop's writers couldn't resist messing with almost everything.  Anime Spike as a mysterious loner with a temper who didn't care for dogs, kept his past a secret, and spent his time pining for his lost love Julia.  Netflix Spike is a quirky action-comedy protagonist with a noodle obsession, who squees over Ein rather than proposing corgi carbonara, and has an atrocious gangland alias of "Fearless".  Anime Jet was a salt-of-the-earth ex-cop with a great love of music and excellent mechanical skills who keeps the Bebop and everything on it in working order while also serving as the ship's cook.  Netflix Jet is a barely competent dumbass who has to be told that you use a bidet to wash your arse, not your feet... which comes off as more than slightly racist since he's played by a black actor.  ESPECIALLY since his backstory was changed to also make him an ex-convict.  Anime Faye was a femme fatale, a liar, and a con artist with a gambling addiction who eventually falls in unreciprocated love with Spike.  Netflix Faye has none of anime Faye's character traits except her tragic backstory... and is now a fanservice bisexual.  Anime Vicious was a complete psycho with a ruthless will to power who had no problem at all with murdering his superiors to seize control.  Netflix Vicious is... Lucius Malfoy with a katana, complete with compulsive toadying.  Netflix massively expanded Julia's role and made her a main villain but she also has to be sympathetic so she's a domestic abuse victim as well.  It goes on and on and on.  There's basically no character in this mess that resembles their original version.  I think perhaps the most egregious case is Gren, the crime syndicate member who was a victim of human experimentation in the original work is now just a non-binary character with none of their original backstory.

With so many arbitrary and detrimental changes to the characters and story, it doesn't feel like Cowboy Bebop... it's more like an original skit performed by Cowboy Bebop cosplayers at an anime convention.

[DYRL VF-1S]

I mean this is nowhere near as egregious as the Dragonball Z live film. I enjoyed it for what it is and wish it wasn’t canceled but not crying over it either. I think the best adaptation has been Death Note.

 The problem from my point of view is simply taking a western team in doing the adaptation. There are cultural nuances that are missed. Basically, this show has been Americanized. The original wasn’t even if it had American influences.

[kajnrig]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's that the writers and producers working on these projects can never seem to leave well enough alone.  They always feel compelled to mess with the original story and/or setting in some way, and it's usually detrimental.

I'm fairly sure it's a common thing in Hollywood writing that in order to get writing credits and/or paid, you have to contribute SOMETHING to the script, so even if one gets brought to you to be "punched up" that's in perfect order, you invariably have to, well, "punch up" that script regardless. It's a malaise that I would love to see put to an end, but alas...

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Anime Spike vs Netflix Spike

Anime Jet vs Netflix Jet

Anime Faye vs Netflix Faye

There's basically no character in this mess that resembles their original version.

I dunno, I think you're missing the forest for the trees, whether intentionally or not. A lot of these "character complaints" are really minor things in the grand scheme of things. The characters are, for the most part, recognizable enough that I can see them acting how they act.

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

who has to be told that you use a bidet to wash your arse, not your feet... which comes off as more than slightly racist since he's played by a black actor.

That is... one heck of a stretch... 🤨

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Anime Faye was a femme fatale, a liar, and a con artist with a gambling addiction who eventually falls in unreciprocated love with Spike.  Netflix Faye has none of anime Faye's character traits except her tragic backstory... and is now a fanservice bisexual.

Anime Faye is a wannabe femme fatale. IIRC she tries it and it more often backfires on her than not. The only times in the anime that the whole film noir aesthetic gets played 100% straight are when it involves Spike... and I suppose that one episode with Jet. And "unreciprocated love with Spike" is speculative at best. The nature of the Bebop crew's relationship with each other is purposely nebulous. Besides surface interactions, they generally hold each other at arm's distance, and they generally avoid acknowledging the formation of intimacy (this despite, of course, some measure of intimacy forming). Regardless of the exact nature of the intimacy forming, it's the acknowledgement of it at the end of the show that was important.

I don't know if Netflix Faye showed any signs of being anything other than a lesbian. Funnily enough, I saw more overt romantic/sexual interest between Netflix Spike and Faye than their anime counterparts... and I didn't consider their interactions particularly romantic or sexual at all. But otherwise, she doesn't show any interest in either of her co-stars - or really anyone at all besides engineer girl.

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  I think perhaps the most egregious case is Gren, the crime syndicate member who was a victim of human experimentation in the original work is now just a non-binary character with none of their original backstory.

Yeah... I don't know how I ultimately feel about that change. He's enough of a throwaway character even in the original that I don't MIND his being made a crossdresser/trans/what have you character who simply operates confidently and competently in a side role. But the changes are also so unnecessary, and nixed a potential second season story point for it.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I'm fairly sure it's a common thing in Hollywood writing that in order to get writing credits and/or paid, you have to contribute SOMETHING to the script, so even if one gets brought to you to be "punched up" that's in perfect order, you invariably have to, well, "punch up" that script regardless. It's a malaise that I would love to see put to an end, but alas...

Well, yes... though even just adapting the existing story is enough to get a writing credit.

It becomes a problem when they get carried away and start putting their own "spin" on the story that takes it in a very different direction from what they were adapting.

 

5 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I dunno, I think you're missing the forest for the trees, whether intentionally or not. A lot of these "character complaints" are really minor things in the grand scheme of things. The characters are, for the most part, recognizable enough that I can see them acting how they act.

It's certainly possible... though, for me, the divergences are blatant enough to break my immersion in the story because the characterization ends up being very different, often in ways that do not aid the story.

 

5 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

That is... one heck of a stretch... 🤨

Eh... I dunno, maybe I'm overreacting to that.  But then again, maybe not.

Jet was hands-down the most experienced, versatile, multi-talented, and intellectual member of the Bebop's crew in the anime.  When you cast a black actor in the role - apparently for no reason other than because the character's surname is "Black" - and subsequently rewrite that erudite and highly-skilled character into a barely literate ten-thumbed dumbass ex-convict who is so hopelessly stupid he has to be told not to wash his feet in the toilet, it's pretty easy to look at that and think to yourself "That feels kinda racist.  Is that racist?"

[jenius]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Jet was hands-down the most experienced, versatile, multi-talented, and intellectual member of the Bebop's crew in the anime.  When you cast a black actor in the role - apparently for no reason other than because the character's surname is "Black" - and subsequently rewrite that erudite and highly-skilled character into a barely literate ten-thumbed dumbass ex-convict who is so hopelessly stupid he has to be told not to wash his feet in the toilet, it's pretty easy to look at that and think to yourself "That feels kinda racist.  Is that racist?"

I feel like you're projecting a lot here. You're ignoring a lot of positive attributes of Jet and the reasons for the changes to construe things in the worst possible way. 

[mark-1s]

I just tried watching the first episode Friday and couldn't even get half way through it. Not because I thought it was horrifically bad, but I had the impression the Netflix series was going to have original stories or at least a different take on the stories. I've already watched the original anime straight through at least 3 times - I don't need to watch it again as live action. From what little I saw some of the scenes were a straight translation to live action. I think they may have stuck too close to the source material IMO.     

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Jet was hands-down the most experienced, versatile, multi-talented, and intellectual member of the Bebop's crew in the anime.  When you cast a black actor in the role - apparently for no reason other than because the character's surname is "Black"

Actually, I'm curious about this. Did people see anime Jet as anything other than black? It's weird because now that I'm considering it, there's really no more reason why I should have thought he was than not, but I always thought he was black in the anime, which is why the casting didn't bother me at all. Actually, looking it up now, apparently a good number of people thought anime Jet was white... or at least not black.

17 minutes ago, mark-1s said:

I had the impression the Netflix series was going to have original stories or at least a different take on the stories. 

Some of the stories are more loosely adapted than others. For my part, I was also hopeful that the LA would consist of completely original adventures, which it... kind of does, sometimes.

EDIT:

While we're at it, what are people's thoughts on the existence (or lack thereof) of romantic/sexual tension subtext between Spike and Faye in the anime? Did you get the impression it was there, and would you have wanted it explored more than it was?

Edited December 13, 2021 by kajnrig

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Actually, I'm curious about this. Did people see anime Jet as anything other than black? It's weird because now that I'm considering it, there's really no more reason why I should have thought he was than not, but I always thought he was black in the anime, which is why the casting didn't bother me at all. Actually, looking it up now, apparently a good number of people thought anime Jet was white... or at least not black.

Many of the folks in Cowboy Bebop's heavily Chinese-influenced space-future are supposedly mixed.  I'd always assumed the same is true for Jet, since his skin tone is close to Spike's and a fair bit lighter than Edward's.

[Big s]

While jet in the anime wasn’t as dark skinned as some of the other characters I always thought of him as black and the live action version of him in the outfit and with his voice seemed perfect for me as far as casting. 

Faye didn’t start out as a lesbian in the live action version, but I think the moment she started questioning herself had to to with that awkward tree scene. I mean accidentally giving a tree a happy ending probably would throw everything into confusion.

honestly the only character change that truly bugged me was vicious. I also don’t think we needed so much background.

As far as anime Americanized adaptation I actually liked the Ghost in the Shell movie and my favorite would hands down be battle angel. Maybe battle angel worked because there was so much story that never got animated that it was more of a comic adaptation  

[Chronocidal]

11 hours ago, Big s said:

As far as anime Americanized adaptation I actually liked the Ghost in the Shell movie and my favorite would hands down be battle angel. Maybe battle angel worked because there was so much story that never got animated that it was more of a comic adaptation  

I haven't seen the GITS movie, but it wasn't for a dislike of the adaptation so much as I just prefer the characters in SAC as opposed to the movies.  Alita I'd never watched or read, so the movie was my introduction to the series, and loved it.  Going back to watch the anime afterwards startled me with how insanely spot-on the casting was for a few of the characters.

I think my attachment from Bebop is entirely the music and design work.  I've seen a few of the episodes, but never sat down to watch the entire thing, so that may work in the Netflix version's favor if I ever decide to watch it.

 

[pengbuzz]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:19 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

To be honest, I don't think it's even necessarily anything visual.

It's that the writers and producers working on these projects can never seem to leave well enough alone.  They always feel compelled to mess with the original story and/or setting in some way, and it's usually detrimental.  Like whatever the hell the coked-up writers of Dragonball Evolution were thinking.  Or how Speed Racer's writers wasted precious screen time on a nonsense subplot that tried to fake out Racer X's identity.  Or Ghost in the Shell's writers devoting fairly half the movie to a convoluted subplot intended to justify whitewashing the very explicitly Japanese Motoko Kusanagi.  

Cowboy Bebop's writers couldn't resist messing with almost everything.  Anime Spike as a mysterious loner with a temper who didn't care for dogs, kept his past a secret, and spent his time pining for his lost love Julia.  Netflix Spike is a quirky action-comedy protagonist with a noodle obsession, who squees over Ein rather than proposing corgi carbonara, and has an atrocious gangland alias of "Fearless".  Anime Jet was a salt-of-the-earth ex-cop with a great love of music and excellent mechanical skills who keeps the Bebop and everything on it in working order while also serving as the ship's cook.  Netflix Jet is a barely competent dumbass who has to be told that you use a bidet to wash your arse, not your feet... which comes off as more than slightly racist since he's played by a black actor.  ESPECIALLY since his backstory was changed to also make him an ex-convict.  Anime Faye was a femme fatale, a liar, and a con artist with a gambling addiction who eventually falls in unreciprocated love with Spike.  Netflix Faye has none of anime Faye's character traits except her tragic backstory... and is now a fanservice bisexual.  Anime Vicious was a complete psycho with a ruthless will to power who had no problem at all with murdering his superiors to seize control.  Netflix Vicious is... Lucius Malfoy with a katana, complete with compulsive toadying.  Netflix massively expanded Julia's role and made her a main villain but she also has to be sympathetic so she's a domestic abuse victim as well.  It goes on and on and on.  There's basically no character in this mess that resembles their original version.  I think perhaps the most egregious case is Gren, the crime syndicate member who was a victim of human experimentation in the original work is now just a non-binary character with none of their original backstory.

With so many arbitrary and detrimental changes to the characters and story, it doesn't feel like Cowboy Bebop... it's more like an original skit performed by Cowboy Bebop cosplayers at an anime convention.

Okay, perhaps visualizes was the wrong word to use here by me. I agree with what you've said here; this series  just didn't feel like Cowboy Bebop, and the things that made it appealing just got watered down or changed in the mix.

All of that said: I really am feeling now that letting western productions do any takes on anime is probably a really bad idea, given their tendency to screw it up with their own ideas.

As for Jet: I always felt he was mixed race (Black/Caucasian or some other mix). He didn't particularly strike me as black per se.

Edited December 13, 2021 by pengbuzz

[roboemo]

22 hours ago, Big s said:

While jet in the anime wasn’t as dark skinned as some of the other characters I always thought of him as black and the live action version of him in the outfit and with his voice seemed perfect for me as far as casting. 

Faye didn’t start out as a lesbian in the live action version, but I think the moment she started questioning herself had to to with that awkward tree scene. I mean accidentally giving a tree a happy ending probably would throw everything into confusion.

honestly the only character change that truly bugged me was vicious. I also don’t think we needed so much background.

As far as anime Americanized adaptation I actually liked the Ghost in the Shell movie and my favorite would hands down be battle angel. Maybe battle angel worked because there was so much story that never got animated that it was more of a comic adaptation  

Also maybe the director has practice with Dark Angel, which kinda act like Battle Angel prototype.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Angel_(American_TV_series)

Complete with "an amnesiac female super soldier in post apocalyptic cyberpunk world".

Edited December 14, 2021 by roboemo

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, perhaps visualizes was the wrong word to use here by me. I agree with what you've said here; this series  just didn't feel like Cowboy Bebop, and the things that made it appealing just got watered down or changed in the mix.

All of that said: I really am feeling now that letting western productions do any takes on anime is probably a really bad idea, given their tendency to screw it up with their own ideas.

As I near the end of the series, I'm not even sure the writers injecting their own hot takes on everything and everyone is the reason Netflix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop bombed.

Sunrise's Cowboy Bebop certainly didn't lack for lighthearted or comedic/absurd moments but it was still a mostly-serious action/drama for all that.  The showrunners working on Netflix's Cowboy Bebop seem to have concluded that, because the original work was an animated series, Joel Schumacher-era Batman levels of camp was the way to go.

This could've been an absolutely amazing series if the showrunners had taken it seriously.  Instead, the showrunners were so committed to the stylistic suck of making the series high camp that they keep disrupting the flow of the serious dramatic moments with unnecessary mood-killing jokes.  Like when Asimov Solensan is trying to sell his stolen drugs to the bartender in the first episode and is momentarily thrown when the previously gruff bartender jovially offers him cupcakes.  The double-take Asimov does is the only part of this scene that's actually believable, with him clearly racking his brain to determine if "cupcakes" is slang for something before being assured that he was being offered an actual piece of confectionary.  They just keep doing it.  Every time the series starts to set the mood they puncture it with a cheap gag, an incredibly campy line, or a deliberately terrible-looking fight/effects sequence right out of a schlock horror movie or cheap kung-fu flick.

They clearly had the money and the resources to do the job right, but what they did with it was accidental self-parody.

If you totally disassociate it from Sunrise's Cowboy Bebop and watch it like it's a cheap exploitation flick, it's not half bad.  If you watch it as anything else... it's just cringeworthy.

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

As for Jet: I always felt he was mixed race (Black/Caucasian or some other mix). He didn't particularly strike me as black per se.

It's a weird thing about Cowboy Bebop that most of the characters were drawn mukokuseki-style without any (stereotypical) identifying features, except for the non-mixed Chinese syndicate leadership, the black characters, and Spike's one Native American friend.

[pengbuzz]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As I near the end of the series, I'm not even sure the writers injecting their own hot takes on everything and everyone is the reason Netflix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop bombed.

Sunrise's Cowboy Bebop certainly didn't lack for lighthearted or comedic/absurd moments but it was still a mostly-serious action/drama for all that.  The showrunners working on Netflix's Cowboy Bebop seem to have concluded that, because the original work was an animated series, Joel Schumacher-era Batman levels of camp was the way to go.

This could've been an absolutely amazing series if the showrunners had taken it seriously.  Instead, the showrunners were so committed to the stylistic suck of making the series high camp that they keep disrupting the flow of the serious dramatic moments with unnecessary mood-killing jokes.  Like when Asimov Solensan is trying to sell his stolen drugs to the bartender in the first episode and is momentarily thrown when the previously gruff bartender jovially offers him cupcakes.  The double-take Asimov does is the only part of this scene that's actually believable, with him clearly racking his brain to determine if "cupcakes" is slang for something before being assured that he was being offered an actual piece of confectionary.  They just keep doing it.  Every time the series starts to set the mood they puncture it with a cheap gag, an incredibly campy line, or a deliberately terrible-looking fight/effects sequence right out of a schlock horror movie or cheap kung-fu flick.

They clearly had the money and the resources to do the job right, but what they did with it was accidental self-parody.

If you totally disassociate it from Sunrise's Cowboy Bebop and watch it like it's a cheap exploitation flick, it's not half bad.  If you watch it as anything else... it's just cringeworthy.

 

It's a weird thing about Cowboy Bebop that most of the characters were drawn mukokuseki-style without any (stereotypical) identifying features, except for the non-mixed Chinese syndicate leadership, the black characters, and Spike's one Native American friend.

So they had everything they needed (sans competent showrunners) and still managed to disappoint us.

Thanks for putting up with my comments and helping me understand what happened with this.

Edited December 14, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Mog]

And here I thought Jet had a passing resemblance to Jigen from Lupin III. 

I thought the live action actor did a solid job with the character.  I’d seen him previously in Luke Cage with a very different accent, so it was a trip to see him as Jet and sound almost exactly like the English version voice actor.

The only real change they made was giving him a daughter, which didn’t really mess up the essence of his character.

Again, despite the obvious flaws, there was potential with the show.

[easnoddy]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:19 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

To be honest, I don't think it's even necessarily anything visual.

It's that the writers and producers working on these projects can never seem to leave well enough alone.  They always feel compelled to mess with the original story and/or setting in some way, and it's usually detrimental.  Like whatever the hell the coked-up writers of Dragonball Evolution were thinking.  Or how Speed Racer's writers wasted precious screen time on a nonsense subplot that tried to fake out Racer X's identity.  Or Ghost in the Shell's writers devoting fairly half the movie to a convoluted subplot intended to justify whitewashing the very explicitly Japanese Motoko Kusanagi.  

Cowboy Bebop's writers couldn't resist messing with almost everything.  Anime Spike as a mysterious loner with a temper who didn't care for dogs, kept his past a secret, and spent his time pining for his lost love Julia.  Netflix Spike is a quirky action-comedy protagonist with a noodle obsession, who squees over Ein rather than proposing corgi carbonara, and has an atrocious gangland alias of "Fearless".  Anime Jet was a salt-of-the-earth ex-cop with a great love of music and excellent mechanical skills who keeps the Bebop and everything on it in working order while also serving as the ship's cook.  Netflix Jet is a barely competent dumbass who has to be told that you use a bidet to wash your arse, not your feet... which comes off as more than slightly racist since he's played by a black actor.  ESPECIALLY since his backstory was changed to also make him an ex-convict.  Anime Faye was a femme fatale, a liar, and a con artist with a gambling addiction who eventually falls in unreciprocated love with Spike.  Netflix Faye has none of anime Faye's character traits except her tragic backstory... and is now a fanservice bisexual.  Anime Vicious was a complete psycho with a ruthless will to power who had no problem at all with murdering his superiors to seize control.  Netflix Vicious is... Lucius Malfoy with a katana, complete with compulsive toadying.  Netflix massively expanded Julia's role and made her a main villain but she also has to be sympathetic so she's a domestic abuse victim as well.  It goes on and on and on.  There's basically no character in this mess that resembles their original version.  I think perhaps the most egregious case is Gren, the crime syndicate member who was a victim of human experimentation in the original work is now just a non-binary character with none of their original backstory.

With so many arbitrary and detrimental changes to the characters and story, it doesn't feel like Cowboy Bebop... it's more like an original skit performed by Cowboy Bebop cosplayers at an anime convention.

You nailed the problems with the characters better than I could, kudos. 

In the anime, Jet knew about Spike's past, which was a big part of his understanding of Spike (but is mysterious to us the viewer and is slowly revealed throughout the series).  In Netflix's version, we know too much too soon.  

And to blame us Gen X'ers for its demise...just look at the Rotten Tomatoes scores.  It simply isn't very good or well liked.

 

[Keith]

Saying "look at the data" from a system designed to skew data based on clicks from a crowd known to spam negative clicks 'cus they heard something was bad is kinda the point.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, easnoddy said:

And to blame us Gen X'ers for its demise...just look at the Rotten Tomatoes scores.  It simply isn't very good or well liked.

Eh... as @Keith said, RottenTomatoes has kind of lost its utility as an actual metric for gauging audience opinions.  It's too vulnerable to review-bombing from both sides in the general audiences section.

It is interesting that two-thirds of the Top Critics, who are usually bought-and-paid-for or at least try to soft-soap their criticism, are raking the series over the coals too.

CNN's reviewer straight-up called the series "dull".  Time Magazine, the New York Times, New York Magazine, Empire Magazine, and Roger Ebert all basically said the only thing it's good for is reminding you the much-better anime exists.  Ebert suggested someone should put a bounty on the showrunners!  The nicest thing some of them could muster, like the Japan Times, is "not as bad as Death Note".  That's somewhere between "damned by faint praise" and "murdered by words" considering that one usually gets mentiond i the same breath as Dragonball Evolution. 

There's no freaking middle ground in the audience reviews.  It's all five star tongue polishing of the show's boots that tries to put the blame on fans of the original anime or one star reviews blasting Netflix for murdering a classic.  There are a few more nuanced opinions, but they're a very small minority of the ~2,000 posts of gushing praise and scathing hate.  (I am slightly bemused that the people who tried to drag politics into it from either side of the aisle seem to be united by their agreement that it sucks even while they blame each other for ruining it.)

[Keith]

Isn't Roger Ebert dead? Do we have some kinda Ebert Review A.I. I don't know about?

[Big s]

The last I heard he had a stroke and face surgery , so he had been staying out of the spotlight. There are still reviews that had been under his name for a while. I’ll have to remember to look up his current status 

[Big s]

Seems every passed a while back, but the reviews still come from writers that he helped pick on his self named website 

[Dynaman]

Ebert has been gone for years now.  I really miss him and Siskel.  Although I did not always agree with their opinion I was always able to figure out if I would like a movie based on their reasons for liking or not liking something.