Neflix's live action Cowboy Bebop

[sqidd]

18 minutes ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

I wonder if their interpretation of his bravado in the anime was posturing and compensation. After all he wouldn't go up against Spike or Gren solo. Maybe they saw him as they portray him the show as a weakling.

Maybe. Regardless, they screwed up hard.

[technoblue]

I finished the back half of the first 10 episodes tonight. There are things that I like about this version, but I find myself very confused now at the intermission.

Here's my spoiler warning for those that need it. 

Spoiler

Yeah, so Chin Vicious has been ousted from my top spot as worst reinvented Bebop character. Alex Hassell plays him over-the-top and as too much of a 'try hard' villain at times. Mostly, I agree with everyone's criticism here, although there are a few sweet moments where Hassell plays the character well and on point. I really liked the flashback episode showing Vicious and Spike working for the Syndicate, for instance. Also, the iconic fight in the cathedral between Spike and Vicious started out on the right foot.

What I wasn't expecting was a reimagined Psycho Edge-Lady Julia. Elena Satine plays her well IMO, it's just that the character's live-action psychology seems to be the complete opposite of her counterpart in the anime. It's almost like the creative team wanted to empower Julia and give her more moments showing how she was trying to fight and wriggle her way out from under Vicious but then decided to kick it up weird. I would have been okay without the weird. I mean, I even liked how she was trying to proactively take advantage of the weaknesses that they gave this version of Vicious. Sadly, we get to see her develop into something twisted...a character that now seems to be set up as a new antagonist...I'm really conflicted about this change.

Does it make sense on some level? Okay, sure. Do I like it? Oof. I'm not sure.

Anyway, back to positives. I'm glad that we got a fun tease of Ed with Ein before the end credits. Seems legit to me. I'm looking forward to seeing more episodes with those two. The split between Spike and Jet was also expected---I mean Jet also blew up at Spike in the anime when he found out about his past. I'm looking forward to seeing how the live action show resolves all of that. Getting to see Faye find out about her past and perhaps even getting to see the live action interpretation of the Astral Gate accident should be cool too.

 

[Big s]

I’ve only watched the first episode and I’m struggling to motivate myself to watch more. It’s not the worst show I’ve seen, but it’s a tough watch since the budget must have run out by the time the tried to blend the cg with reality. It has an odd cardboard cutout kinda feel and the fight scenes are filmed kinda slow. These people definitely couldn’t afford a modern fight choreographer or director. The actors for the main three aren’t bad, but everyone else is a bit cheesy and not in a nice cheddar kinda way. I’ll try to motivate myself to watch more, but it’s not an easy thing to do. Hopefully Gundam gets a higher budget 

[azrael]

Ok finished this season. Seeing that it's been 20+ years since the show originally broadcast (meaning it's been almost that long since I saw the anime) I'm going in with only a vague recollection.

Overall, it's ok. Not so bad but not that good either.  Production values were definitely uneven. Fight sequences were OK. Needs more work. Actors were fine. Story....ok. And yeah, I don't recall Vicious' characterization as it was presented in the Netflix show vs the anime. Nor Julia. Not a pro or con, just a "OK, if that's how you want to roll with those 2 characters...".

[sqidd]

8 hours ago, technoblue said:

Anyway, back to positives. I'm glad that we got a fun tease of Ed with Ein before the end credits. Seems legit to me. I'm looking forward to seeing more episodes with those two. The split between Spike and Jet was also expected---I mean Jet also blew up at Spike in the anime when he found out about his past. I'm looking forward to seeing how the live action show resolves all of that. Getting to see Faye find out about her past and perhaps even getting to see the live action interpretation of the Astral Gate accident should be cool too.

I've always wanted more backstory on the Astral Gate accident. In the anime it seemed like a lost opportunity. It would be cool if they put it in season 2.

I was hoping for Ed in season 1. I can't explain why but I absolutely loved Ed in the Anime. On paper I would say she would irritate me to no end. But, in practice I found myself laughing out loud at her shannangins. And her physical comedy had me smiling the entire time. That part from the amine had my cracking up HARD! The biggest issue is casting Ed. Wow, that will be a task.

 

[M'Kyuun]

9 hours ago, technoblue said:

I finished the back half of the first 10 episodes tonight. There are things that I like about this version, but I find myself very confused now at the intermission.

Here's my spoiler warning for those that need it. 

  Hide contents

Yeah, so Chin Vicious has been ousted from my top spot as worst reinvented Bebop character. Alex Hassell plays him over-the-top and as too much of a 'try hard' villain at times. Mostly, I agree with everyone's criticism here, although there are a few sweet moments where Hassell plays the character well and on point. I really liked the flashback episode showing Vicious and Spike working for the Syndicate, for instance. Also, the iconic fight in the cathedral between Spike and Vicious started out on the right foot.

What I wasn't expecting was a reimagined Psycho Edge-Lady Julia. Elena Satine plays her well IMO, it's just that the character's live-action psychology seems to be the complete opposite of her counterpart in the anime. It's almost like the creative team wanted to empower Julia and give her more moments showing how she was trying to fight and wriggle her way out from under Vicious but then decided to kick it up weird. I would have been okay without the weird. I mean, I even liked how she was trying to proactively take advantage of the weaknesses that they gave this version of Vicious. Sadly, we get to see her develop into something twisted...a character that now seems to be set up as a new antagonist...I'm really conflicted about this change.

Does it make sense on some level? Okay, sure. Do I like it? Oof. I'm not sure.

Anyway, back to positives. I'm glad that we got a fun tease of Ed with Ein before the end credits. Seems legit to me. I'm looking forward to seeing more episodes with those two. The split between Spike and Jet was also expected---I mean Jet also blew up at Spike in the anime when he found out about his past. I'm looking forward to seeing how the live action show resolves all of that. Getting to see Faye find out about her past and perhaps even getting to see the live action interpretation of the Astral Gate accident should be cool too.

 

Finished the series last night. 

Spoiler

Same view on Hassell's performance as Vicious.  I also enjoyed the flashback sequences, and the relationship between Vicious, Fearless, and Julia.  And again, the cathedral fight. I was waiting and hoping for Kanno's awesome Ballad of Fallen Angels, and they didn't disappoint.  Of course, it spelled the end of Spike in the anime, but I'm glad they spared him in the show. The split between him and Jet made sense, but with their history, short as it is, it's a no-brainer that Jet will accept him for the person that Spike is trying to be apart from his past. 

As to Julia, I thought it was an interesting direction to go. Personally, I think she'll make a better antagonist than the all-rage, little-thought personality of Vicious. Julia's a more complex character.  She has the most growth of any character in the series- a nobody backstage hand to nightclub singer, to wife of a wealthy but sadistic mobster, enduring the bi-polar treatment of her husband whose moods shift like sand in the desert- kind and adoring one moment, angry and abusive the next.  Years spent in that kind of environment could certainly change a person. One need only spend some time watching ID channel to see real life examples. So, it made perfect sense to me, after her plot to have Vicious murdered failed, and after his defeat in the cathedral, to seize upon the opportunity to take over the Syndicate in the wake of the Elders' murders.  Keeping Vicious alive is her only all-too-common tv trope mistake.  But Julia is a more cunning foe than Vicious, and her past with Fearless/Spike gives the relationship an extra layer of complexity. I'm curious to see how it plays out. I hope there's a second season, despite all the negative criticism.  Unfortunately, people these days are quick to condemn anything that plays off an earlier work, especially anime. Honestly, I'm not sure how they could have made it much better while trying to keep it true to the anime's spirit on a tv budget.  

I did think most of the villains were over the top, but again, that's a very anime trope, and Cowboy Bebop was full of oddball characters. It does feel like watching the old '66 Batman show at times, especially the psycho dude in Ep 8 Sad Clown A-Go-Go. Just very over the top.  Which leads us to the surprising appearance of Ed at the end. The girl they got to play her looks like she has the quirkiness down. It's going to be a very physical role, if they follow the anime model, so I'm curious to see how that plays out. The show wouldn't be complete without her, though, so it should be a fun ride if second season gets a go.  I'm also looking forward to seeing Faye's story play out; I only vaguely remember it from the anime, so I'm enjoying watching this with mostly fresh eyes.

I see a lot of mention of the Astral Gate, but I have no recollection of that at all (since childhood, my memory has been more sieve than bucket), so again, exploration of that story will probably feel new to me, should they explore it.

One departure from the anime that I noticed was that the main characters always seem to be eating in this show, whereas they were always hungry with no money for food in the anime. They did focus on the maintenance needs of the Bebop in a couple eps, where Faye goes sapphic in the engine room, but beyond that they didn't portray the consistent pennilessness of the main cast as much as the anime did.

Anyway, while it's not a perfect show, even with the changes, it feels pretty close to the mark for me. As I said before, I wouldn't want them to copy the original anime note for note; you may as well just watch the anime then. I think in a show like this that borrows heavily from source, but also tries to find some new directions, there's an appeal to new discoveries as opposed to knowing every outcome or every arc. I hope it gets a second season, and finds some forgiveness amongst its detractors.

 

 

[sqidd]

Finished the last episode. Saw Ed sow up at the end. I'm not feeling her like I didn't feel Vicious. That's a bummer.

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

Finished the series last night. 

  Hide contents

As to Julia, I thought it was an interesting direction to go. Personally, I think she'll make a better antagonist than the all-rage, little-thought personality of Vicious. Julia's a more complex character.  She has the most growth of any character in the series- a nobody backstage hand to nightclub singer, to wife of a wealthy but sadistic mobster, enduring the bi-polar treatment of her husband whose moods shift like sand in the desert- kind and adoring one moment, angry and abusive the next.  Years spent in that kind of environment could certainly change a person. One need only spend some time watching ID channel to see real life examples. So, it made perfect sense to me, after her plot to have Vicious murdered failed, and after his defeat in the cathedral, to seize upon the opportunity to take over the Syndicate in the wake of the Elders' murders.  Keeping Vicious alive is her only all-too-common tv trope mistake.  But Julia is a more cunning foe than Vicious, and her past with Fearless/Spike gives the relationship an extra layer of complexity. I'm curious to see how it plays out. I hope there's a second season, despite all the negative criticism.  Unfortunately, people these days are quick to condemn anything that plays off an earlier work, especially anime. Honestly, I'm not sure how they could have made it much better while trying to keep it true to the anime's spirit on a tv budget.  

Those are good points.

Spoiler

Although I'm conflicted on Julia for the moment, I'm willing to give this version of the character a chance. If this creative team takes some time to give us another more Julia-centric episode and really sell the twist to her character then that could win me over. As it is, without any context other than the idea that she feels betrayed by both men, I agree that the part with keeping Vicious alive at the end seems like a mistake.   

 

1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

 

  Hide contents

I did think most of the villains were over the top, but again, that's a very anime trope, and Cowboy Bebop was full of oddball characters. It does feel like watching the old '66 Batman show at times, especially the psycho dude in Ep 8 Sad Clown A-Go-Go. Just very over the top.  Which leads us to the surprising appearance of Ed at the end. The girl they got to play her looks like she has the quirkiness down. It's going to be a very physical role, if they follow the anime model, so I'm curious to see how that plays out. The show wouldn't be complete without her, though, so it should be a fun ride if second season gets a go.  I'm also looking forward to seeing Faye's story play out; I only vaguely remember it from the anime, so I'm enjoying watching this with mostly fresh eyes.

 

Spoiler

The live series changes the order of events and cuts out a lot of the side characters. For instance, the Teddy Bomber is shown early in the live series but doesn't get shown until episode 22 of the anime. There's also a whole thing between Spike and another bounty hunter named Cowboy Andy that's cut. They're both competing to get the bounty and Spike gets annoyed since everyone keeps mistaking him for Andy. It's a light-hearted side story that would have been nice to see in live action. Oh well.

The Psycho Dude is Pierrot Le Fou. That story doesn't show up until episode 20 of the anime (well after Ed was introduced and became part of the Bebop crew). Again, the reasons Le Fou goes after Spike are different and I don't mind the changes in the live version. Their big fight and how things end are mostly the same.

The live version changes a lot with the Dr. Londes episode too. So in both versions Londes has a huge bounty but also isn't a real person. In the anime, Faye and Spike are competing to get the bounty and there is this whole thing with the Brain Dream game system. Faye's 'cult act' proves to be more believable than Spike's and she is able to work her way inside. She's the one who "finds" Dr. Londes and gets abducted. Spike, Jet, and Ed then have to go and get her out.

The live version removes all of that. Ed has not yet joined the Bebop crew, but only gave them a tip. Spike seeks out Dr. Londes on his own and "finds" the trap. Faye isn't involved as directly as she was in the anime, and the episode is more of a vehicle to elaborate on Spike's fears/feelings for Julia. Jet ends up going to get Spike out with help from some random hacker that Ed knows. Faye stays on board the Bebop "tending" to the ship. 

 

[Keith]

5 hours ago, sqidd said:

I've always wanted more backstory on the Astral Gate accident. In the anime it seemed like a lost opportunity. It would be cool if they put it in season 2.

I was hoping for Ed in season 1. I can't explain why but I absolutely loved Ed in the Anime. On paper I would say she would irritate me to no end. But, in practice I found myself laughing out loud at her shannangins. And her physical comedy had me smiling the entire time. That part from the amine had my cracking up HARD! The biggest issue is casting Ed. Wow, that will be a task.

 

I thought the gate incident was covered well enough in the anime. It was done in the background intentionally, since by the time the series takes place, the event is too far inti the past & world too damaged from the aftermath for there to be much care when the mystery is unraveled.

[sqidd]

43 minutes ago, Keith said:

I thought the gate incident was covered well enough in the anime. It was done in the background intentionally, since by the time the series takes place, the event is too far inti the past & world too damaged from the aftermath for there to be much care when the mystery is unraveled.

I like history.

[Harlock Fan]

9 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Finished the series last night. 

  Hide contents

Same view on Hassell's performance as Vicious.  I also enjoyed the flashback sequences, and the relationship between Vicious, Fearless, and Julia.  And again, the cathedral fight. I was waiting and hoping for Kanno's awesome Ballad of Fallen Angels, and they didn't disappoint.  Of course, it spelled the end of Spike in the anime, but I'm glad they spared him in the show. The split between him and Jet made sense, but with their history, short as it is, it's a no-brainer that Jet will accept him for the person that Spike is trying to be apart from his past. 

As to Julia, I thought it was an interesting direction to go. Personally, I think she'll make a better antagonist than the all-rage, little-thought personality of Vicious. Julia's a more complex character.  She has the most growth of any character in the series- a nobody backstage hand to nightclub singer, to wife of a wealthy but sadistic mobster, enduring the bi-polar treatment of her husband whose moods shift like sand in the desert- kind and adoring one moment, angry and abusive the next.  Years spent in that kind of environment could certainly change a person. One need only spend some time watching ID channel to see real life examples. So, it made perfect sense to me, after her plot to have Vicious murdered failed, and after his defeat in the cathedral, to seize upon the opportunity to take over the Syndicate in the wake of the Elders' murders.  Keeping Vicious alive is her only all-too-common tv trope mistake.  But Julia is a more cunning foe than Vicious, and her past with Fearless/Spike gives the relationship an extra layer of complexity. I'm curious to see how it plays out. I hope there's a second season, despite all the negative criticism.  Unfortunately, people these days are quick to condemn anything that plays off an earlier work, especially anime. Honestly, I'm not sure how they could have made it much better while trying to keep it true to the anime's spirit on a tv budget.  

I did think most of the villains were over the top, but again, that's a very anime trope, and Cowboy Bebop was full of oddball characters. It does feel like watching the old '66 Batman show at times, especially the psycho dude in Ep 8 Sad Clown A-Go-Go. Just very over the top.  Which leads us to the surprising appearance of Ed at the end. The girl they got to play her looks like she has the quirkiness down. It's going to be a very physical role, if they follow the anime model, so I'm curious to see how that plays out. The show wouldn't be complete without her, though, so it should be a fun ride if second season gets a go.  I'm also looking forward to seeing Faye's story play out; I only vaguely remember it from the anime, so I'm enjoying watching this with mostly fresh eyes.

I see a lot of mention of the Astral Gate, but I have no recollection of that at all (since childhood, my memory has been more sieve than bucket), so again, exploration of that story will probably feel new to me, should they explore it.

One departure from the anime that I noticed was that the main characters always seem to be eating in this show, whereas they were always hungry with no money for food in the anime. They did focus on the maintenance needs of the Bebop in a couple eps, where Faye goes sapphic in the engine room, but beyond that they didn't portray the consistent pennilessness of the main cast as much as the anime did.

Anyway, while it's not a perfect show, even with the changes, it feels pretty close to the mark for me. As I said before, I wouldn't want them to copy the original anime note for note; you may as well just watch the anime then. I think in a show like this that borrows heavily from source, but also tries to find some new directions, there's an appeal to new discoveries as opposed to knowing every outcome or every arc. I hope it gets a second season, and finds some forgiveness amongst its detractors.

 

 

“Same view on Hassell's performance as Vicious.  I also enjoyed the flashback sequences, and the relationship between Vicious, Fearless, and Julia.  And again, the cathedral fight. I was waiting and hoping for Kanno's awesome Ballad of Fallen Angels, and they didn't disappoint.  Of course, it spelled the end of Spike in the anime, but I'm glad they spared him in the show.”

Ummm…. Kanno wrote the song Rain in the episode of Ballad of Fallen Angels.   Spike didn’t end in that episode. Which thankful since his story was far from over at that point.   The way they wrote Vicious ruined the theme of the episode and Ruined the tragedy of the Spike and Julia romance.   Thank goodness Kyuun, that Spike survived after the fifth session!!  The episode is summed up with the dialog, “When Angels fall out of heaven, they become devils don’t you agree Spike?”  And Spike replies, “It’s like a bad dream that I never wake up from.  Vicious retorts, “Well, I will wake you up right now.”  Spike responds, “What’s the rush Vicious, it’s been a long.”  That works because Spike and Vicious are two sides of the same coin.   The same blood as you will.  They are the yen and yang.   Both cool and calm.  Both fighting over the same girl.   One is writing his past and the other can’t escape it.  Spike can’t escape the past so he must

die according to Vicious.  He is the beast that lost his fangs like Mao.  Just about anybody can write forever about this episode which is perhaps one of the greatest episodes ever of any medium.   There was so much built into it because of well planning and vision.   Damn You get know how much Faye and Jet are truly family to Spike.  Julia is the villian?  Wow my expectations were subverted.   Rolling my eyes.  What Netflix did to Cowboy Bebop was worse that what Robotech did Macross story wise (not counting the licensing crap).   Love Macross and Cowboy Bebop.   Damn even in the Netflix universe you can’t have a dang nickname.  Fearless?  Ugh!!   I love that in the anime that Jet and Spike both refuse to talk about their past.  Only when Faye and Jet move on can they live.  Spike refuses to let go.  Perhaps that is why the viewer is left to decide Spike’s fate?  Did he die?  Did he live?   The creator feel that Spike lives.  So does escape the past?   Like Spike said, “I am not going there to die.  I am going there to find out if I am really alive.”  Life and Death are a major theme of Cowboy Bebop with each character has their own interpretation.   The older you get, the more you understand.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Harlock Fan

[M'Kyuun]

19 minutes ago, Harlock Fan said:

“Same view on Hassell's performance as Vicious.  I also enjoyed the flashback sequences, and the relationship between Vicious, Fearless, and Julia.  And again, the cathedral fight. I was waiting and hoping for Kanno's awesome Ballad of Fallen Angels, and they didn't disappoint.  Of course, it spelled the end of Spike in the anime, but I'm glad they spared him in the show.”

Ummm…. Kanno wrote the song Rain in the episode of Ballad of Fallen Angels.   Spike didn’t end in that episode.   The way they wrote Vicious ruined the theme of the episode and Ruined the tragedy of the Spike and Julia romance.   Thank goodness Kyuun, that Spike survived after the fifth session!!  The episode is summed up with the dialog, “When Angels fall out of heaven, they become devils don’t you agree Spike?”  And Spike replies, “What’s the matter Vicious it has been a long time.  It like a bad dream that I never wake up from.  Vicious retorts, “Well, I will wake you up right now.”  Spike and Vicious are two sides of the same coin.   The same blood as you will.  I can write forever about this episode which is perhaps one of the greatest episodes ever of any medium.   There was so much built into this episode.  What Netflix did to Cowboy Bebop was worse that what Robotech did Macross story wise (not counting the licensing crap).   Love Macross and Cowboy Bebop.   Damn even in the Netflix universe you can’t have a dang nickname.  Fearless?  Ugh!!

Oof, I stand corrected on a bunch of stuff you pointed out. First, let me reiterate that it has been years since I last watched the anime, and my memory is terrible on my best day, hence, my mistakes. So, I let Wiki fill me in on the details I misremembered. For some reason, I was thinking Ballad of Fallen Angels was the last ep of the series and Spike died at the end when he was tossed out of the window. I also thought the song they played during that scene was called the same, but I just now learned it's actually called Greenbird. Sometimes it pays to be wrong and have it pointed out, as I'm learning the right of it. Anyway, Greenbird is one of my favorite Kanno compositions (she not only plays it, but sings it, under her pseudonym, Gabriela Robin, of course) 😉 Lovely tune. ❤️

Agree that it's a great episode, certainly a standout for story, imagery, music, and atmosphere.  That said, I didn't hate the Netflix take on it. But then again, I'm not nearly as invested in the anime, and this ep in particular, as you are. As with anything that inspires passion in people, I can understand your disdain for the live action, even if I don't share your feelings towards it.  However, your mention of Macross vs Robotech ignites in me a far stronger passion, as I'm die-hard Macross, and wish Robotech would cease to exist, along with Harmony Gold. So, different shows, different passions, but a shared understanding of how it feels when something you hold dear is changed, in your opinion, for the worse.

6 hours ago, technoblue said:

Those are good points.

  Hide contents

Although I'm conflicted on Julia for the moment, I'm willing to give this version of the character a chance. If this creative team takes some time to give us another more Julia-centric episode and really sell the twist to her character then that could win me over. As it is, without any context other than the idea that she feels betrayed by both men, I agree that the part with keeping Vicious alive at the end seems like a mistake.   

 

 

  Hide contents

The live series changes the order of events and cuts out a lot of the side characters. For instance, the Teddy Bomber is shown early in the live series but doesn't get shown until episode 22 of the anime. There's also a whole thing between Spike and another bounty hunter named Cowboy Andy that's cut. They're both competing to get the bounty and Spike gets annoyed since everyone keeps mistaking him for Andy. It's a light-hearted side story that would have been nice to see in live action. Oh well.

The Psycho Dude is Pierrot Le Fou. That story doesn't show up until episode 20 of the anime (well after Ed was introduced and became part of the Bebop crew). Again, the reasons Le Fou goes after Spike are different and I don't mind the changes in the live version. Their big fight and how things end are mostly the same.

The live version changes a lot with the Dr. Londes episode too. So in both versions Londes has a huge bounty but also isn't a real person. In the anime, Faye and Spike are competing to get the bounty and there is this whole thing with the Brain Dream game system. Faye's 'cult act' proves to be more believable than Spike's and she is able to work her way inside. She's the one who "finds" Dr. Londes and gets abducted. Spike, Jet, and Ed then have to go and get her out.

The live version removes all of that. Ed has not yet joined the Bebop crew, but only gave them a tip. Spike seeks out Dr. Londes on his own and "finds" the trap. Faye isn't involved as directly as she was in the anime, and the episode is more of a vehicle to elaborate on Spike's fears/feelings for Julia. Jet ends up going to get Spike out with help from some random hacker that Ed knows. Faye stays on board the Bebop "tending" to the ship. 

 

Spoiler

I have zero recollection of the Londes episode from the anime, as well as pretty much the other 98% of it.  My wife tends to remember stuff far better than I, but she didn't say anything during that ep so I don't know if she remembered it or not.  Anyway, I'm probably the better for it, as the Netflix take seemed fresher to me for having little in the way of memories of the anime with which to compare.  It's a double-edged sword having a goldfish memory- totally sucks that you can't remember sh!t, but helpful in a case like this.  Anyway, I can understand their touching on various themes or elements of anime episodes without copying them directly, as they're dealing with a much more compressed timeline, even with hour long eps instead of just half hour, and they're obviously changing the narrative ever so slightly.  Nothing seemed jarringly wrong to me watching it- it served to give some insight to Spike's mindset, and I liked how the AI was using the VR world to manipulate Spike in its attempt to absorb his mind.  Darn those mind-stealing AIs anyway!😄

 

[Harlock Fan]

Thank you Kyuun!!   I hate Robotech too (to a degree… it did introduce me to Macross). So I think we can agree with that.  I love Cowboy Bebop and Macross (Except Macross 7 and Delta)!  It is just weird that you have major companies changing everything and not really understanding what made these properties special in the first place.  Cowboy Bebop is just so Japanese in its view of life and death.  You really can’t expect an American writer who really does not know anything about philosophy from another prospective to really understand the property.  It is such a common theme in Samurai films and “yakuza” films.  It is rare that an anime like Bebop just really nailed it in a Sci-Fi setting.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Harlock Fan

[M'Kyuun]

20 minutes ago, Harlock Fan said:

Thank you Kyuun!!   I hate Robotech too.  So I think we can agree with that.  Cheers!!  I love Cowboy Bebop and Macross (Except Macross 7 and Delta)!  It is just weird that you have major companies changing and not really understanding what made these properties special in the first place.  Cowboy Bebop is just so Japanese in its view of life and death.   You can see it as it is such a common theme in Samurai films.  Bebop just really nailed it in a Sci-Fi setting.

No worries.  But you make a good point; the anime was targeted specifically at a Japanese audience, whereas the Netflix show is inspired by the anime, but targeted at an American audience. If you're Japanese, or familiar with Japanese culture and custom, those subtleties will be far more apparent to you, and likely lost on Americans, most Westerners really. I think the intended audience has to be taken into account for how the show is written and presented, as it has a very American flavor, especially in Faye's character. Some things cross, and some don't. FWIW, I'm sorry that it doesn't appeal to you. However, you're not alone, as the show is getting negative criticism from Americans, too. We're a tough crowd. 

As for me, I'm an American who grew up during the 80's, that glorious period where cheese ruled and special effects sucked. 😄  As such, I tend to go a lot lighter on a lot of today's sci-fi for just how good it is compared to what I grew up on. Difference of perspective, I suppose.

[kajnrig]

Spoiler

It's mostly decent, it's sometimes bad, it's sometimes excellent. I wish it could have had a longer production time and a bigger budget. Given what they had to work with, they did an amazing job adapting a lot of the material in creative ways into a more conventional TV show story flow, where subplots continuously feed back into an overarching narrative. That being the case, I felt the show was at its weakest when it tried to imitate the original frame by frame or sequence by sequence. The last episode's church sequence and musical numbers fell especially flat to me. If they had integrated "Rain" and "Green Bird," or the idea of a church shootout, more loosely, I think they could have had much better results.

I'm in agreement that Vicious gets the short end of the writing stick, by a long shot. It's impossible to accept that he's supposedly one of the three generals of an intergalactic crime syndicate. That's not to say that Vicious in the anime is some sort of writing tour de force, but there's enough there that you can buy that he'd be able to rule through fear... for a time. That said, I actually quite like the character they've made for him in this one. I just don't think he's smart or capable enough to get where he is, or if he does get there, to maintain it. Even if they just made him unnaturally physically strong, that'd be enough for me to buy this Vicious being where he is.

The change to Julia I'm more ambivalent on. I think they kind of get a bit ahead of themselves and bungle it at the end there, but I'm not opposed to that character arc for her. I think I'd have preferred if the church had played out without her involvement, and she ends the season on the run herself, and eventually comes to the same conclusion midway through the next season. Maybe she meets up with Faye same as in the anime and in a moment of dramatic irony, their interaction helps to strengthen her resolve. But despite how rushed it felt, I'm more interested in this version of Julia than I ever was in the original Julia.

Here's hoping season 2 gets greenlit with a bigger budget.

 

[arbit]

I'm half way through. My thoughts are: it totally sucks, I love it anyway, can't stop watching, they really stuck to the groove of the original, it brings back all those old memories.

Question: Did they have a Hong Kong action choreographer? Because they could have really used one.

-See you spaced people...

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by arbit

[sqidd]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:28 PM, kajnrig said:

  Hide contents

 

 

Here's hoping season 2 gets greenlit with a bigger budget.

Considering the ratings I don't see a season 2 happening. I've been wrong before though.

Edited November 24, 2021 by sqidd

[azrael]

52 minutes ago, sqidd said:

Considering the ratings I don't see a season 2 happening. I've been wrong before though.

Netflix has a weird way of doing things considering no one really understands how they judge viewership. Season 2 may yet happen.

[sqidd]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

Netflix has a weird way of doing things considering no one really understands how they judge viewership. Season 2 may yet happen.

Netflix is based mostly on attracting new subscribers. In general they're more likely to throw money behind a new series than extend an old one. I read a big thing on this the other day. If I could remember where I would link it.

Their membership "game" is the same as a gym. Get people to sign up knowing that a majority of them will do it for a while then stop coming. But most don't cancel their memberships for some time. It's all about attracting new membership with shiny things.

Of course this is not a rule. Just the overall trend.

[blackconvoy_D01]

We're # 1! we're # 1!

[Big s]

I think that it has more to do with overall viewership than reviews. That Kevin Smith He Man got renewed and the curiosity of this live action version will probably be what gets it renewed 

[easnoddy]

I'd give it 3/10.  The space CG was pretty well done as was the planet settings.

Jet was accurate but kinda oddly cartoony-acted.  The whole thing is kinda that way.  I didn't like how the facial hair was done, it looked fake.  The kid bit was dumb and totally unnecessary.

Spike talks too much.  Cho got some of him right, but Spike's a man of few words in the original show.  The backstory was fine.  Did they make up the name "Fearless" just for this or was it in the manga?

Vicious is all wrong.  He's like a Dick Tracy or Tim Burton Batman villain.  He's not brooding, just an petulant child with daddy issues.  Gone is his military background on Titan, and all the complexity of the character.

Faye is just all wrong.  All the enigma of Faye for most of the series is completely missing, as is her suave bravado.  Instead she's just...an American teenager in a 20-something body.  I take issue with the NEED to change her character.  She was a good character in the anime.  She's not in this show. 

Julia...was she a singer prior to this?  She was mysterious by design in the anime...and she's not mysterious in this show.

IMO the whole show should have been a lot darker and less cartoony.  More like season 1 of Altered Carbon.

[Bolt]

Just finished season one. Loved every minute of it. Had zero issues with it needing to be a carbon copy of the original anime. It has more than enough of the look and feel to be awesome. Imo. 
Very much looking forward to a second season. 
 

[Mog]

So, finished up the series this past weekend.  The last half of the season was actually okay and a little better than the first half.

However, there were bits in the last episode that felt off.

Spoiler

Mostly, the music when Faye goes off on the Red Dragon goons felt too comedic and then they went right into the Spike-Vicious showdown we’ve all been waiting for, complete with all the well-known, memorable music.  Just too much of a tonal shift.

Looking back, I did like some of the callbacks from previous eps coming into play at the end, like the face-changing tech and the unloaded gun.

Other bits:

Spoiler

Also, surprised no one mentioned the “I like mothers” joke they tossed in there for John MILF Cho.

Still keeping my earlier opinions about Vicious, but let’s see where they take the story between Spike and Julia.

 

[ErikElvis]

I went in with low expectations which may have been a good thing but I was pleasantly surprised. I think they did a good job.  Vicious, I think, just suffered from too much screen time. He was very ominous in the anime. Spike is decent. I liked jet right away. Voice was perfect. Faye..  well acceptable but maybe could have done better. 

[Mog]

Anime Vicious rarely, if ever, was made to look the fool.  Always seemed to be a step ahead of everyone and commanded this odd full-on loyalty from his underlings.

You don’t get that with the live action version (except for one scene).

I get why they did it for storyline purposes, but they nerfed him too much.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Mog

[Roy Focker]

Finished it last night.

I see it like a fan film.  Some performances were good and other weren't.  When you have no budget you cast whoever you can get and shoot in whatever locations are the cheapest.  There was parts that I was pleasantly surprised by but overall I'd have to give it a 5 out of 10.  I would have preferred they cut the episode count for 10 to 6 and use the extra money on CGI and production design.

 

[Big s]

I finally got around to finishing it and I think the real problem is that they tried too hard to have a long story instead of just sprinkling in the syndicate stuff here and there for flavor. There definitely was some love that went into this from the creators to the actors, but the budget and overall story are the downside as well as a bumbling nemesis. If It were another character messing up leaving room for Vicous to take over would have been a more entertaining end for the season 

[Tking22]

Unfortunately Vicious was not that Vicious, and I feel overall there was just too much of him, too much screen time overall. I enjoyed the first season, it was fun enough, production values were solid, most of the time...

I'm in for a second season, but that seems a big if, the series already dropped pretty low on most popular since it released, and the overall reception, professional and us regular folks, has been pretty mixed to say the least. 

[blackconvoy_D01]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/cowboy-bebop-canceled-netflix-1235060256/

RANT

Well, (some) people got their wish. It f***ing sucks because despite everything and being an old school fan; I still liked this show ALOT! I went against the (reddit) community: majority and it goes not the way I wanted. Congrats old fogies; maybe silvertab jeans will come back in style while you rock out to whatever dated '90s music you still think is relevant.

Edited December 10, 2021 by blackconvoy_D01

[Mog]

Welp, see ya space cowboy:

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/cowboy-bebop-canceled-netflix-1235130359/

🤷🏽‍♂️

Edit:  I would have given a second season a chance.  But wouldn’t be surprised if budget was a deciding factor.

I’ve seen shows with worse first seasons still get second seasons on Netflix. <shrugs>

Edited December 10, 2021 by Mog

[kajnrig]

Yeah, that's a shame. It surprised me how good it was despite itself.

If someone decides to plow ahead with it, I hope they retain the cast. They were far and away the best part of the show.

[Roy Focker]

The show was bad but most of the cast was good and I felt it still had potential.   Hoping they were taking notes from the critics and would have done a better job on season 2.  

[Keith]

1 hour ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/cowboy-bebop-canceled-netflix-1235060256/

RANT

Well, (some) people got their wish. It f***ing sucks because despite everything and being an old school fan; I still liked this show ALOT! I went against the (reddit) community: majority and it goes not the way I wanted. Congrats old fogies; maybe silvertab jeans will come back in style while you rock out to whatever dated '90s music you still think is relevant.

Hey now it's not the old curmudgeon's (like me) that got it canceled. I enjoyed it for it's differences & similarities, and was all hyped for a second season. It's the noisy hipster crowd who complain to complain and hate just to hate that got it canceled.

The only real problem I had with the show was Vicious, and that seems to have been by design. At the end of the day, I'll still pick it up if they ever put it out on Blu-Ray.

[technoblue]

Well that's a downer. I was looking forward to seeing Ed join the cast. Easy come, easy go.

Edited December 10, 2021 by technoblue