Star Trek: Picard (CBS All-Access)

[Dobber]

Episode 8 was ok for me as well. This whole Titan taken over storyline was just meh for me. Too many plot conveniences for me that made me more annoyed by things then invested in them. They aren’t bad episodes but I’m glad it has been wrapped up.
 

A reviewer that loves this season did say that it feels like there isn’t enough story for 10 episodes and that the season does feel a bit drawn out. I would definitely agree with that.  These season long stories do get a bit old when things keep getting drawn out until the end. DS9 had a good balance of serialized story telling along with stand-alone episodes I think. When we are in just one story and the answers keep getting pushed further and further away it can be taxing on the viewer. We know nothing will be answered or solved until the end of the season and it leaves one feeling hopeless in the interim. At least for me it does.   I hear episode 9 has a lot of answers finally so we shall see. 
 

Chris

[sh9000]

Episode 9 clip.

 

The Ready Room with one of my favorite actors Brent Spiner.

 

[Mommar]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:45 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Poorly?  I think that much was inevitable.

This is less a narrative and more a string of poorly thought-out references and in-jokes driven by moon logic and garnished with a plethora of plot holes.  A few moments of almost quality writing were unlikely to ever change this show's course away from the ending being another disappointing arse pull.

It's basically nothing but a constant stream of 2009-style remember-berries.  The characters all operate somewhere between parody and fan-fiction at best.

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, sh9000 said:

Episode 9 clip.

 

I think I know what she saw:

Spoiler

 

 

[sh9000]

I wonder if there's an appearance from Locutus or Armus.

[Seto Kaiba]

Oh Star Trek: Picard, it truly is impossible to underestimate you.

"Surrender" has a fitting title, because this is clearly where Picard's showrunners and writers simply gave up and stopped even pretending they were trying.  

Spoiler

As a curmudgeonly critic, "Surrender" has me positively spoiled for choice in terms of what stupid plot "twists" and developments to make fun of.  I mean seriously... where do I even begin when this episode has such gems on offer as:

• Vadic forgets her mercenaries massively outnumber the Titan-A's skeleton crew and engages in form letter villainy by threatening to execute hostages unless Jack surrenders, instead of just sending troops to go collect his ass.
• Jack Crusher reveals he's actually a super-powerful telepath who can mind-control people from hundreds of meters away.  No real explanation is offered for why he's an incredbily powerful telepath when neither of his parents has any telepathic ability (and humans in general don't).
• Jack Crusher using his amazing Grand Theft Me powers to endanger more Starfleet personnel instead of just mind controlling Vadic into letting them go.
• Deanna Troi's been mind-controlling her husband to suppress his grief over their son's death for some reason, even though their shared overwhelming grief was what led them to run away from Starfleet and live in the boonies in season one.  
• You can apparently take down Changelings by stabbing them now.  Yes, you can stab the man made entirely of liquid and it will somehow be just as injurious as it would be to someone who isn't a punnet of snot in a badly tailored suit.
• The amazing revelation that there's no way to hack the Titan's systems without a very advanced computer... apparently forgetting that the Titan's main computer is a very advanced computer, and the dozens of times we've seen security measures circumvented or overridden without having to "hack" the system.
• Isn't the definition of insanity "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"?  Let's plug Data/Lore/Lal/Soong - screw it, I'm calling him Snore - into the main computer AGAIN and hope he doesn't immediately betray us like last time.
• The Changelings are studying the real Jean-Luc Picard's brain, likely wondering what the hell made Patrick Stewart think this series was a good idea.
• Data, Lore, Lal, and Alton Soong apparently join this season's body count when they tear down the partitions between the mentally ill golem's personalities and let them duke it out, resulting in Data's third death (and the second in this series) after Lore takes Data's memories and then destroys him.  Somehow, instead of resulting in just Lore knowing everything Data knows (like what was supposed to happen to B4 in Nemesis) this causes Lore to somehow become almost exactly like Data.
• Armed with full control of the Titan's systems, the crew kills Vadic and her troops by flushing them out into space.
• Vadic joins the season's body count, alongside Data (for the 3rd time), Lore (for the 2nd time), Lal (for the 2nd time), Alton Soong (for the 2nd time), T'Veen, and Ro Laren.  They wasted the villain they've spent eight episodes developing, and now have to introduce a NEW villain for the remaining two episodes.
• Instead of capturing and interrogating Vadic with the aid of the very powerful telepath and the empath they have, they just casually murder the one person who could have told them about what the Changelings are planning.
• The crew also blow up Vadic's ship instead of accessing it to gain information on the plans of the Changelings.
• Oh boy, this crew of mentally ill senior citizens who are grappling with the challenges of reduced bladder capacity are supposed to be the last best hope of Starfleet and the Federation.  *plays the TNG theme out of tune on a kazoo*  I cannot imagine anyone less fit to save the day than this lot of washed-up fossils.
• Did anyone else notice that Jack Crusher's evil vision is basically the Secret Hideout logo?  Are we going meta, with the cast invading the production company to lodge a formal complaint like Roger Smith in The Big O.

 

 

12 hours ago, Dobber said:

A reviewer that loves this season did say that it feels like there isn’t enough story for 10 episodes and that the season does feel a bit drawn out. I would definitely agree with that.

There's barely enough story here to fill the back of a cereal box, never mind ten episodes of a television series.

 

2 hours ago, Mommar said:

It's basically nothing but a constant stream of 2009-style remember-berries.  The characters all operate somewhere between parody and fan-fiction at best.

It's just depressing.

[Thom]

Well that was a good one too. We had some nice dramatic scenes with Vadic holding the bridge crew hostage, some more insight into what's happening with Jack, and some great Data/Lore scenes, arguably the highlight of the episode. And listening to them talking was like stepping back into TNG. Only with them a lot older!

Though to one or two of @Seto Kaiba points, when Riker, Work and Deaana are on the Shrike, it's made clear that most of Vadic's crew were part of the boarding party. It doesn't look like she had a large crew to begin with and left only a few on her own ship. In fact, I would say that if Ro had not transferred so many of Titan's crew off to the Lexington, the boarding would have been a lot tougher for Vadic, and maybe even impossible.

The other point, the Changelings being easily 'stabable,' could be put down to them being more solid than fluid while in their human guises. Despite the ability it gives them to once again mimic and hide behind another person's identity, I think the drawback is that they can suffer damage that a normal Changeling would have been able to shrug off. That's why Worf was going along vaporizing them, to keep them from healing and getting back up like Vadic's second officer was able to do. Or that's how I'm seeing it anyway.

 

[borgified]

Does Jean-Luc know how to make good wine?? 🤨

Seems like in this season and in the previous one, no one wants to either touch/taste it. 

Does any wine aficionados here know how to determine if your bottle of wine will either be good or bad? I’m guessing it’s either the type of grapes used, soil conditions, tannins, sugar concentrations in the grapes itself, weather conditions, et all that determine the flavour.

I might as well stick with Innis and Gunn Beer as it’s aged in actual Oak Wine barrels for a length of time to determine which batch that you personally prefer.

Edited April 8, 2023 by borgified

[pengbuzz]

49 minutes ago, borgified said:

Does Jean-Luc know how to make good wine?? 🤨

Seems like in this season and in the previous one, no one wants to either touch/taste it. 

Does any wine aficionados here know how to determine if your bottle of wine will either be good or bad? I’m guessing it’s either the type of grapes used, soil conditions, tannins, sugar concentrations in the grapes itself, weather conditions, et all that determine the flavour.

I might as well stick with Innis and Gunn Beer as it’s aged in actual Oak Wine barrels for a length of time to determine which batch that you personally prefer.

I think that part was to make a not so subtle point: his wine became bitter because he had become bitter.

  

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh Star Trek: Picard, it truly is impossible to underestimate you.

"Surrender" has a fitting title, because this is clearly where Picard's showrunners and writers simply gave up and stopped even pretending they were trying.  

  Hide contents

As a curmudgeonly critic, "Surrender" has me positively spoiled for choice in terms of what stupid plot "twists" and developments to make fun of.  I mean seriously... where do I even begin when this episode has such gems on offer as:

• Vadic forgets her mercenaries massively outnumber the Titan-A's skeleton crew and engages in form letter villainy by threatening to execute hostages unless Jack surrenders, instead of just sending troops to go collect his ass.
• Jack Crusher reveals he's actually a super-powerful telepath who can mind-control people from hundreds of meters away.  No real explanation is offered for why he's an incredbily powerful telepath when neither of his parents has any telepathic ability (and humans in general don't).
• Jack Crusher using his amazing Grand Theft Me powers to endanger more Starfleet personnel instead of just mind controlling Vadic into letting them go.
• Deanna Troi's been mind-controlling her husband to suppress his grief over their son's death for some reason, even though their shared overwhelming grief was what led them to run away from Starfleet and live in the boonies in season one.  
• You can apparently take down Changelings by stabbing them now.  Yes, you can stab the man made entirely of liquid and it will somehow be just as injurious as it would be to someone who isn't a punnet of snot in a badly tailored suit.
• The amazing revelation that there's no way to hack the Titan's systems without a very advanced computer... apparently forgetting that the Titan's main computer is a very advanced computer, and the dozens of times we've seen security measures circumvented or overridden without having to "hack" the system.
• Isn't the definition of insanity "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"?  Let's plug Data/Lore/Lal/Soong - screw it, I'm calling him Snore - into the main computer AGAIN and hope he doesn't immediately betray us like last time.
• The Changelings are studying the real Jean-Luc Picard's brain, likely wondering what the hell made Patrick Stewart think this series was a good idea.
• Data, Lore, Lal, and Alton Soong apparently join this season's body count when they tear down the partitions between the mentally ill golem's personalities and let them duke it out, resulting in Data's third death (and the second in this series) after Lore takes Data's memories and then destroys him.  Somehow, instead of resulting in just Lore knowing everything Data knows (like what was supposed to happen to B4 in Nemesis) this causes Lore to somehow become almost exactly like Data.
• Armed with full control of the Titan's systems, the crew kills Vadic and her troops by flushing them out into space.
• Vadic joins the season's body count, alongside Data (for the 3rd time), Lore (for the 2nd time), Lal (for the 2nd time), Alton Soong (for the 2nd time), T'Veen, and Ro Laren.  They wasted the villain they've spent eight episodes developing, and now have to introduce a NEW villain for the remaining two episodes.
• Instead of capturing and interrogating Vadic with the aid of the very powerful telepath and the empath they have, they just casually murder the one person who could have told them about what the Changelings are planning.
• The crew also blow up Vadic's ship instead of accessing it to gain information on the plans of the Changelings.
• Oh boy, this crew of mentally ill senior citizens who are grappling with the challenges of reduced bladder capacity are supposed to be the last best hope of Starfleet and the Federation.  *plays the TNG theme out of tune on a kazoo*  I cannot imagine anyone less fit to save the day than this lot of washed-up fossils.
• Did anyone else notice that Jack Crusher's evil vision is basically the Secret Hideout logo?  Are we going meta, with the cast invading the production company to lodge a formal complaint like Roger Smith in The Big O.

 

 

There's barely enough story here to fill the back of a cereal box, never mind ten episodes of a television series.

 

It's just depressing.

Seto, I was pretty depressed all day today. Thanks for posting that; I laughed so hard, I nearly split my side!

Especially "Snore"!

Edited April 8, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

29 minutes ago, borgified said:

Does Jean-Luc know how to make good wine?? 🤨

Seems like in this season and in the previous one, no one wants to either touch/taste it. 

Possibly - and I would be endlessly amused if it were the case - a dig at Star Trek: Picard's own merchandising.  The Star Trek wine collection.

The novelty bottles modeled on various noteworthy liquor bottles from Star Trek shows make rather nice collectibles but the actual wine therein is unmistakably the cheap stuff.  Some of it was passable, but a lot of it wasn't.  It reviewed poorly, even in publicity puff pieces with Picard cast members involved.  Like the wine tasting and review with John de Lancie, where the "Cardassian Kanar" red wine blend was described as something that could be mistaken for tapwater with wine essence added.  That is pretty close to murder with malice when it comes to a wine review.

 

29 minutes ago, borgified said:

Does any wine aficionados here know how to determine if your bottle of wine will either be good or bad? I’m guessing it’s either the type of grapes used, soil conditions, tannins, sugar concentrations in the grapes itself, weather conditions, et all that determine the flavour.

I might as well stick with Innis and Gunn Beer as it’s aged in actual Oak Wine barrels for a length of time to determine which batch that you personally prefer.

I'm no wine snob and certainly no vintner, but AFAIK there are a large number of factors contributing to that including the type and quality of fruit used, the acidity, the alcohol content, how long it aged, the balance of flavors, the quality and consistency of the barrels, etc.  (I have an aunt who makes wine, I only narrowly staved off a multi-hour lecture.)

The Star Trek wine collection compared unfavorably (IMO) to the products of my local winery, and my home state isn't exactly well-known for its wine.

[sh9000]

3 hours ago, Thom said:

Well that was a good one too. We had some nice dramatic scenes with Vadic holding the bridge crew hostage, some more insight into what's happening with Jack, and some great Data/Lore scenes, arguably the highlight of the episode. And listening to them talking was like stepping back into TNG. Only with them a lot older!

I enjoyed it too and I'm right there with you.  Looking forward to seeing the Enterprise F and maybe even the Enterprise D.

[Dobber]

So I’m still very confused as to what Vadic and her crew/ mercenaries are. I know the are some for of changed Changlings but is she just the tortured founder that ended up modified or is she combined with the scientist that tortured her? I ask because in this episode Riker asked one of her crew “how much of that goo did they make you swallow” or something to that effect, and in her flashback what was happening to the scientist was a little vague and it looked like she was sort of being transformed or something.  Also if there were only nine of them how are there SOOOO many of them now? 4 were killed on the Titan alone BEFORE the boarding action (the transporter chief and the 4 that Jack Jason Bourned) yet they are all through Star fleet and then her crew as well. Did I miss something or has this just not been explained yet as the big baddie has not yet been revealed. It just seems as though Vadic and her crew/type hasn’t really been explained. I’m a little concerned they won‘t be.🤷🏻‍♂️

Chris

[Thom]

2 hours ago, Dobber said:

So I’m still very confused as to what Vadic and her crew/ mercenaries are. I know the are some for of changed Changlings but is she just the tortured founder that ended up modified or is she combined with the scientist that tortured her? I ask because in this episode Riker asked one of her crew “how much of that goo did they make you swallow” or something to that effect, and in her flashback what was happening to the scientist was a little vague and it looked like she was sort of being transformed or something.  Also if there were only nine of them how are there SOOOO many of them now? 4 were killed on the Titan alone BEFORE the boarding action (the transporter chief and the 4 that Jack Jason Bourned) yet they are all through Star fleet and then her crew as well. Did I miss something or has this just not been explained yet as the big baddie has not yet been revealed. It just seems as though Vadic and her crew/type hasn’t really been explained. I’m a little concerned they won‘t be.🤷🏻‍♂️

Chris

Vadic just took the face of the 'doctor' who was experimenting on them, as a way to never forget and as a way, I think, to show how much of a monster she was by putting her face on Vadic's actions. And I think I recall Vadic saying she was able to show others how to do it as well, that being mimicking Solids so well as to pass the checks put in place after the Dominion War. Though, if that is the case, are they truly changed at all biologically? Cause I though the 'doctor' had done something to them to alter their DNA.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Thom said:

Vadic just took the face of the 'doctor' who was experimenting on them, as a way to never forget and as a way, I think, to show how much of a monster she was by putting her face on Vadic's actions. And I think I recall Vadic saying she was able to show others how to do it as well, that being mimicking Solids so well as to pass the checks put in place after the Dominion War. Though, if that is the case, are they truly changed at all biologically? Cause I though the 'doctor' had done something to them to alter their DNA.

Talk about identity theft....

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Thom said:

Though, if that is the case, are they truly changed at all biologically? Cause I though the 'doctor' had done something to them to alter their DNA.

Picard's whole thing with these rogue Founders doesn't really make a ton of sense if you think about it.

That Founders were captured during the Dominion War and subjected to study is, on its own, pretty reasonable and even Section 31's involvement in it makes sense since they'd have had to experiment on someone to prove out their nasty little anti-Changeling doomsday virus.  That the experimentation somehow made them better shapeshifters doesn't make all that much sense since their supposed new capabilities are things they were already capable of back in Deep Space Nine.  Odo was pretty clear from the outset that the Founders are better (or more experienced/proficient) shapeshifters than him and that their shapeshifting ability was good enough to fool even Starfleet sensors.  Likewise, the Martok Changeling was able to pass multiple blood screenings without issue prior to being outed and gunned down on Ty'gokor.

Section 31's experimentation allegedly made Vadic and her ilk better shapeshifters, but they never address how and the only appreciable differences from the Founders as they were during Deep Space Nine are all negatives:

• They need to periodically return to their liquid state to regenerate, and if they don't they'll gradually lose control over their shape anyway with visible physical deterioration.  This limitation was previously unique to Odo.
• They can be stabbed with injurious or even incapacitating effect.
• They can be vaporized with a single phaser discharge, when they were previously shown tanking dozens of disruptor blasts.  (Barring Mirror Odo, who exploded when struck with a kill shot from a Bajoran hand phaser, presumably also on Odo's inexperience as a shapeshifter.)

The most coherent explanation we can assume is that they discovered, during that experimentation, that simulating the full internal anatomy of a living being instead of just doing the outer appearance and lifeform readings let them evade detection by anti-Changeling countermeasures at the cost of being way more draining to carry off.  That'd make it not so much an improvement in their abilities as a dangerous forbidden technique.

[Thom]

56 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

....

The most coherent explanation we can assume is that they discovered, during that experimentation, that simulating the full internal anatomy of a living being instead of just doing the outer appearance and lifeform readings let them evade detection by anti-Changeling countermeasures at the cost of being way more draining to carry off.  That'd it make it not so much an improvement in their abilities as a dangerous forbidden technique.

It's a valuable ability, as long as the enemy does not know you can do it. Starfleet was sure that their detection systems were working and in twenty years some complacency had creaped in. Then comes Vadic and her handler. Yes, her and the other Changelings abilities come with more weaknesses, but if they could pull off their plan against the Federation without anyone knowing about it, then those weaknesses would not matter. It is all about secrecy, because once someone knows about it, the jig is (almost) up. In the case of the show, Picard and Co are coming into it very late when Starfleet has been deeply penetrated, so the Changelings new advantage has been working for them.

But if we really want to pick at something... We know that Jack is somehow essential to their plan. So, why didn't they get him first..? Frontier Day is only hours away, but this apparent lynch pin has been left until the very last. They could have caught him a year earlier, giving them plenty of time to work him before they finally moved against the Federation.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Thom

[sh9000]

Imzadi:  The Riker and Troi Relationship.

Edited April 9, 2023 by sh9000

[sh9000]

Episode 9 promo.  Can't wait.

[borgified]

Since that there is a high demand for a possible Todd/Jeri spinoff series, how would this version keep future (and existing) audiences interested and not loose interest in it all all? 
 

I have a feeling that there will be more callbacks to TNG in the remaining two episodes left in this series. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, borgified said:

Since that there is a high demand for a possible Todd/Jeri spinoff series, how would this version keep future (and existing) audiences interested and not loose interest in it all all? 

It wouldn't.

All in all, I think that's one of those ideas that sounds good as long as you don't actually think it through.  Kind of like how some fans were excited for the proposed Section 31 series until they remembered that Section 31 is basically War Crimes Inc., that the show's would-be protagonist is one of the most unrepentantly evil people to ever appear in Star Trek, and that the writing would be similar to Discovery's cringeworthy second season.  A show built around Liam Shaw and Seven of Nine sounds like a fine idea in the context of Picard's third and final season because they're the only two functioning adults on a ship overrun with incontinent senior citizens.  On its own merits, though... it's a point of pride for Shaw that the USS Titan didn't get up to any high-concept sci-fi bullsh*t during his multi-year tenure as its captain and Seven's nearly as stiff and no-nonsense as he is.  It'd be Lower Decks without any of the comedy, unless they decided to have Seven revisit her short-lived, ill-considered cowboy cop phase.

 

2 hours ago, borgified said:

I have a feeling that there will be more callbacks to TNG in the remaining two episodes left in this series. 

That is an incredibly safe bet.

[Thom]

2 hours ago, borgified said:

Since that there is a high demand for a possible Todd/Jeri spinoff series, how would this version keep future (and existing) audiences interested and not loose interest in it all all? 
 

I have a feeling that there will be more callbacks to TNG in the remaining two episodes left in this series. 

Other than resurrecting the Enterprise-D from Veridian III, I don't think they can!😁

But I think a Star Trek Titan show would be able to go on their own adventures, with Shaw finally getting his 'adventure' on. Or, if the character is too opposed to any more he could retire and leave the center seat for Seven. Would be a shame though, as I have grown to like him and his whit. In a way, Shaw is like two personalities, the flippant one such as when he cleared Seven back for duty just before he expected her to be marched off the ship, and the one just playing it 'safe.' I'd like to see him coming out of his shell.

[sh9000]

The many faces of Data.  I wouldn't mind if Geordi and Data appear in a new series.  Also I'm down for Star Trek:  Data.

 

[TangledThorns]

10 hours ago, sh9000 said:

The many faces of Data.  I wouldn't mind if Geordi and Data appear in a new series.  Also I'm down for Star Trek:  Data.

 

Intriguing. Sign me up. DATA is my favorite ST character of all time.

[Thom]

I thought I'd heard that Spiner said he would not be playing the character anymore.(?)

[Roy Focker]

Actors have been returning to characters they swear they were done with 20 years ago. All the actors who were too good to appear in comic book movies 20 years ago have all appeared in comic book movies.  They like money and want to earn doing the way are used to.

[pengbuzz]

6 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

Actors have been returning to characters they swear they were done with 20 years ago. All the actors who were too good to appear in comic book movies 20 years ago have all appeared in comic book movies.  They like money and want to earn doing the way are used to.

I guess time and trends have a way of changing people's minds. In Spiner's case, they also let Data have more emotional range (and some sarcasm to boot).

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Thom said:

I thought I'd heard that Spiner said he would not be playing the character anymore.(?)

That was his position 20 years ago after Star Trek: Nemesis.

The reason he gave at the time for agreeing to the writers killing off Data in Star Trek: Nemesis was that he'd visibly aged enough that he felt it was implausible for him to continue to play a physically-unaging android character like Data.  

His return to the franchise as Data coincided with the (inexpert) use of digital deaging technology to make him look closer to his TNG appearance, but they seem to have stunned him into agreeing to return with large amounts of money for Picard's third season and the TNG cast's last hurrah.

That said, I think Picard's first season created an even bigger problem for Data returning.  Data made it clear to Picard, and through him to Soong, that he wanted to die.  Picard went and disconnected Data's program from the simulation it was running on to grant that wish.  Apparently Data's final wish to meet death with dignity and to rest in peace didn't matter much to Dr. Soong, who effectively exhumed the corpse of Data's consciousness and resuscitated it in a golem with a bunch of other dead androids so they were all trapped inside a single body fighting for control.  That is, as they say, a dick move.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I guess time and trends have a way of changing people's minds. In Spiner's case, they also let Data have more emotional range (and some sarcasm to boot).

So does large amounts of money.

Paramount+ is burning something to the tune of $8M an episode filming Discovery and Picard.  

[JB0]

25 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Apparently Data's final wish to meet death with dignity and to rest in peace didn't matter much to Dr. Soong, who effectively exhumed the corpse of Data's consciousness and resuscitated it in a golem with a bunch of other dead androids so they were all trapped inside a single body fighting for control.  That is, as they say, a dick move.

In fairness, I get the impression Dr. Soong skipped Ethics 101... or took it in the mirror universe accidentally. He's got a long history of morally dubious decisions.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, I get the impression Dr. Soong skipped Ethics 101... or took it in the mirror universe accidentally. He's got a long history of morally dubious decisions.

That's fair.

One could argue that Data was probably the only member of the extended and occasionally artificial Soong family to actually attend an Ethics class.  The majority of the members of the Soong family we've seen in Star Trek to date are kinda... either insane, murderous, or murderously insane.

 

[Keith]

Keep in mind I am extremely battle damaged and not even remotely as strong as I once was, but I just "Gunbuster cried" at S3 ep9. I know that there has been a ton of....well "Hate" at the first 2 seadons, but I implore any who haven't already to skip straight to S3. It's good.

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That was his position 20 years ago after Star Trek: Nemesis.

The reason he gave at the time for agreeing to the writers killing off Data in Star Trek: Nemesis was that he'd visibly aged enough that he felt it was implausible for him to continue to play a physically-unaging android character like Data.  

His return to the franchise as Data coincided with the (inexpert) use of digital deaging technology to make him look closer to his TNG appearance, but they seem to have stunned him into agreeing to return with large amounts of money for Picard's third season and the TNG cast's last hurrah.

That said, I think Picard's first season created an even bigger problem for Data returning.  Data made it clear to Picard, and through him to Soong, that he wanted to die.  Picard went and disconnected Data's program from the simulation it was running on to grant that wish.  Apparently Data's final wish to meet death with dignity and to rest in peace didn't matter much to Dr. Soong, who effectively exhumed the corpse of Data's consciousness and resuscitated it in a golem with a bunch of other dead androids so they were all trapped inside a single body fighting for control.  That is, as they say, a dick move.

Speaking strictly "in universe": Soong probably used a copy of Data's mind from before the 20 years in that simulation. I figure if he could "clone him" from his positronic "cells" once (or whatever BS they came up with), he could do it again.

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So does large amounts of money.

Paramount+ is burning something to the tune of $8M an episode filming Discovery and Picard.  

There's that; and thinking on it, the reasons I mentioned would be ancillary at best.

Admittedly, it is kinda nice to see them together again on screen, but that's the effect they were going for, isn't it? Banking on "memberberries" (nostalgia) and going completely countermand to their original claim of "no TNG reuinions" once they saw how badly S1 and 2 tanked. But with all of that said: what really sticks with me most is how pathetic Picard sounded when he whined "Will..." when the Shrike nailed them with their own photorps.

TNG Picard would never have acted like that; in that moment, he sounded like a little kid who just knocked over the family's flat-screen TV after running around the living room.

[Thom]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That was his position 20 years ago after Star Trek: Nemesis.

The reason he gave at the time for agreeing to the writers killing off Data in Star Trek: Nemesis was that he'd visibly aged enough that he felt it was implausible for him to continue to play a physically-unaging android character like Data.  

His return to the franchise as Data coincided with the (inexpert) use of digital deaging technology to make him look closer to his TNG appearance, but they seem to have stunned him into agreeing to return with large amounts of money for Picard's third season and the TNG cast's last hurrah.

That said, I think Picard's first season created an even bigger problem for Data returning.  Data made it clear to Picard, and through him to Soong, that he wanted to die.  Picard went and disconnected Data's program from the simulation it was running on to grant that wish.  Apparently Data's final wish to meet death with dignity and to rest in peace didn't matter much to Dr. Soong, who effectively exhumed the corpse of Data's consciousness and resuscitated it in a golem with a bunch of other dead androids so they were all trapped inside a single body fighting for control.  That is, as they say, a dick move.

 

So does large amounts of money.

Paramount+ is burning something to the tune of $8M an episode filming Discovery and Picard.  

Ah, money!

As for Soong, their name is synonymous with dickery! Though even in that, he was trying to do right by Data.

 

[sh9000]

 

Excellent episode 9!!!

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

Ah, money!

It's a gas!!

Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash!!!

 

[CoryHolmes]

14 hours ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, I get the impression Dr. Soong skipped Ethics 101... or took it in the mirror universe accidentally. He's got a long history of morally dubious decisions.

 

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The majority of the members of the Soong family we've seen in Star Trek to date are kinda... either insane, murderous, or murderously insane.

 

This is because I'm convinced that every member of the Soong family have been clones of the original, Arik Soong.  He was the geneticist who worked with the Augments, so he's got the knowledge and the arrogance to make it work