Star Trek: Picard (CBS All-Access)

[Roy Focker]

Quote

Starfleet security's interrogation manual has apparently expanded to simply beating prisoners now. 

And then only one of them turned out to be changeling. At first I thought all of them were changelings. That would have made sense. This just looks like beating prisoners is the norm. How many of people did Worf beat to death on the Enterprize D?

 

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Roy Focker said:

And then only one of them turned out to be changeling. At first I thought all of them were changelings. That would have made sense. This just looks like beating prisoners is the norm. How many of people did Worf beat to death on the Enterprize D?

 

Well, there was that one time with Duras...

[Thom]

Another good episode! IMO, they're keeping the level of writing and acting up for the last three and I'm really hoping it continues. 

Good seeing Geordi and his kids together, though I have to say...

Spoiler

...the contention with his daughter felt too forced. So what if she wanted to be a pilot rather than an engineer? And sure, he worries about his kid's safety, but they are in Starfleet. That comes with the job, no matter where it is.

Seeing Data...

Spoiler

...Lore. B4, Lal, et al was good, but also, he's dead now. Let him rest. From what I understand, Spiner has stated this is the last time he's playing Data. Though it was nice seeing the flashback to the first TNG, and certainly a better way to show Moriarity rather than as a full character. 

As for Jack...

Spoiler

...of course he would have his father's disease. Though I wish there had been a better reason for the hallucinations. Thought they were leading up to something more with that. Maybe they still are, as Vadic/the Changelings still want him. But if it is for the disease, there must be millions more who have it would be easier to reach.

And pretty cool that they stole the cloaking device! I loved that!

Now if they could have just given us twenty more minutes of just flying around the museum!  Looking at the ships in their circular docking areas certainly showed the size difference between the Refit-A and the Titan. And did anyone else see that NX with the refit lower hull? 

Best shot though...

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, Roy Focker said:

And then only one of them turned out to be changeling. At first I thought all of them were changelings. That would have made sense. This just looks like beating prisoners is the norm.

Yeah... it's especially problematic that none of the three actual Starfleet officers in the room - including the one getting seven shades beaten out of him - seem to have seen anything amiss about the interrogation of an elderly Starfleet hero taking the form of a vicious beating.  It takes Vadic abandoning all subtlety and killing the two real security officers for Riker to notice something's wrong.

Like Quark once said, "We're not Klingons."  Starfleet's supposed to have principles... torture isn't really compatible with those principles.

 

16 hours ago, Roy Focker said:

How many of people did Worf beat to death on the Enterprize D?

15 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, there was that one time with Duras...

Prior to joining the cast of Deep Space Nine, Worf was usually on the receiving end of the beatings.

[JB0]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:15 PM, Dobber said:

I also…

  Reveal hidden contents

Found it creepy that they have stored the remains of both Picard and Kirk! For what purpose? A bit disturbing, but that was the point I gather.

Chris

Obviously they have plans to settle the "best captain" debate with genetig engineering. Captain James Tiberius Picard has a nice ring to it.

On 3/16/2023 at 2:13 PM, Roy Focker said:

It was a good episode in the fact that I was engaged the whole time but there some flaws.

Did Riker forget he once had sex with this week's guest star?

In fairness, when you're Riker that's an awful lot of people to remember.

[sh9000]

Great episode.  I loved seeing the ships and I'm happy about Data.

 

 

[Thom]

9 minutes ago, JB0 said:

...

In fairness, when you're Riker that's an awful lot of people to remember.

Also, the situation was a maybe a bit too stressful for 'wink-wink, nudge-nudge' moment.😁

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, sh9000 said:

Great episode.  I loved seeing the ships and I'm happy about Data.

Y'know... I'm beginning to wonder if anyone working on Star Trek: Picard has ever actually seen Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

The idea of a rogue Founder isn't exactly unprecedented - that's basically what Odo was after rejecting the Great Link and siding with the Federation - but the writers seem to have forgotten a bunch of key points about the Founders from Deep Space Nine.  It was a plot point in Deep Space Nine that the Founders were better/more practiced shapeshifters than Odo and didn't have the same need to return to their natural gelatinous state periodically to rest.  DS9's producers considered that to be a limitation effectively unique to Odo.  So the Titus Rikka changeling shouldn't have had any need to ruin its cover the way it did.  They also valued unity above everything else, with the female Founder even going so far as to claim that she would consider it a victory if she brought Odo home even if it meant losing the entire Alpha Quadrant.  The idea that a substantial number of changelings refused the consensus of the Great Link and reopened hostilities of their own accord is pretty out-of-character for the Founders.  This trailer, however, has what might be the most out-of-character moment for the Picard "changelings" so far.  They're threatening each other.  With violence and/or death.  So much for their mantra "No changeling has ever harmed another" (except Odo).  

[Mommar]

As much as I hate the constant nostalgia-bait train ride I do enjoy the different cues during the completely unnecessary ship viewing segment.

[Thom]

2 hours ago, Mommar said:

As much as I hate the constant nostalgia-bait train ride I do enjoy the different cues during the completely unnecessary ship viewing segment.

It was completely necessary!!

[sh9000]

https://trekmovie.com/2023/03/24/alex-kurtzman-says-star-trek-announcements-coming-soon-hints-at-character-focused-mini-series-movies

Bring on the spinoffs.

[Seto Kaiba]

"Alex Kurtzman talks a lot, says nothing of substance or value."

That is some serious wishful thinking on display.  Discovery was a flop.  Picard was a flop, and is only recovering slightly because its writers gave up and turned it into a TNG cast reunion.  Short Treks was a flop.  It's unlikely Paramount will continue to invest in a failure like Picard by doing a movie or spinoff miniseries.  It says a lot that he's still trying to get hype going for Section 31 nearly five years after it became obvious it was never going to happen.  Michelle Yeoh was wasted on Discovery, I doubt she'd come back to be wasted playing a racist caricature again when she can have her pick of the industry.

(She's already committed to at least four other projects too... American Born Chinese, The Brothers Sun, A Haunting in Venice, and Wicked.)

[pengbuzz]

Having had time to think about it....

Spoiler

If they try to resurrect Kirk, I'm never watching another Star Trek anything again. Not because I have any dislike for Kirk, but because I find it repugnant that they kept him at Daystrom Station since the events of Generations (and Picard's body since S1). If that's the Starfleet they want to portray,  then I want NONE OF IT.

 

[lechuck]

Just watched Ep. 6 and... again with the Section 31 nonsense. I'm not even sure where we stand with this group - are they now officially part of Starfleet?

I swear... I despise DS9 for ever introducing this diametrically opposed crap into the Star Trek universe - it's a concept that should have no place there!

For three decades Star Trek told us that humans and human society has evolved - dropped our ego, not selfish, become an open, equal and transparent society. But... oh wait... because the people behind DS9 thought ST needed be more edgier ("because TNG was so unsuccessful with its approach") we get Section 31, a secret group bereft of any moral and ethical conscience, scheming and plotting for maintaining or gaining power over other species or galactic unions. Surprise... humans aren't that cool and evolved after all. Ugh...

And here we are three decades later, still dealing with this stupidity DS9 introduced with almost every new ST series we get. We can be mad for Kurtzman and cohorts continuing to run with the idea, but the real blame goes to those people in charge of DS9 back in the day.

[Thom]

A Utopian society is a great thing to reach for, but as a species I believe it is always something we will only ever be reaching for. We will always fall short, but as long as we are still striving for it, that it's not really a possibility doesn't really matter. That has always been one of the more unbelievable aspects of ST for me, and I am more likely to believe that there are elements like Section 31 operating in the shadows as a dirty, not really recognized secret.

That's not saying I want a show centered on Section 31...

13 hours ago, sh9000 said:

https://trekmovie.com/2023/03/24/alex-kurtzman-says-star-trek-announcements-coming-soon-hints-at-character-focused-mini-series-movies

Bring on the spinoffs.

Give me more with Seven and Shaw and the Titan! Shaw needs to get his adventure on!

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, lechuck said:

Just watched Ep. 6 and... again with the Section 31 nonsense. I'm not even sure where we stand with this group - are they now officially part of Starfleet?

One of the many unfortunate consequences of the current group of Star Trek showrunners being so heavily influenced by J.J. Abrams and his failed attempt to reboot Star Trek as a generic sci-fi/action franchise.  Until the viewership numbers so conclusively proved it didn't sell, they were so determined to make Star Trek as dark and edgy as they could that they went all-in on every dark and edgy premise they could think of... and there are few premises in Star Trek more evocative of "edgy fanfic" than Section 31.

So, despite the fact that DS9 and ENT had depicted them as being so clandestine almost nobody who wasn't working for them knew they existed, the writers of Discovery jumped at the chance to include them and completely forgot about the clandestine part.  They not only showed them operating openly and undisguised on regular Starfleet ships as early as Discovery's third episode, they also made them immediately recognizable as such by having them all openly wear black version of the Starfleet insignia.  A point so stupid that even Lower Decks struggles to make a joke out of it.

 

6 hours ago, lechuck said:

I swear... I despise DS9 for ever introducing this diametrically opposed crap into the Star Trek universe - it's a concept that should have no place there!

It's definitely not their finest writing, but its original execution does mesh well with Deep Space Nine's theme of examining Star Trek's utopian ideal in execution and how it interacts with the non-utopian lifestyles outside of the Federation's model society.

As Odo points out, it shouldn't actually be a surprise that the Federation would have an intelligence organization like Section 31.  It's a functioning interstellar government and its broad-minded, utopian ideals are emphatically not shared by many of its neighbors like the Klingons, the Romulans, and the Cardassians, the latter two of which operate similar agencies quite openly (the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order).  Starfleet Intelligence is purely a military intelligence organization, so it's only natural that the Federation would have at least one, and more likely several, nonmilitary intelligence organizations committed to protecting it and its interests on the interstellar stage.  Sloan makes a similar point, that a utopian society like the Federation will inevitably need an organization that is willing to violate those lofty morals to defend those same morals from those that don't share that sense of justice. 

(And it's not like we didn't see Starfleet get up to a MOUNTAIN of shady sh*t in TOS and TNG anyway even before Section 31 was introduced...)

The main problem with Section 31 is that, from the outset, their writing is so completely over-the-top and hammy.  They're a super secret intelligence service that's been operating autonomously since the Federation was founded, somehow completely hidden from the public eye and from other intelligence services, appearing and vanishing seemingly at will whenever someone looks away like Batman, they dress all in black (pleather), and as of Discovery they were black commbadges, hide out in secret space stations protected by literally edgy minefields, and roam the galaxy in edgy black starships concealed with holographic camouflage.  It's like something out of a bad fanfic even without Director Sloan doing his very best Bond villain impression... whether that's just how he rolls or he's doing it for Bashir's benefit.  That Discovery and Picard have decided that needs to have more attention rather than mocking it for its stupidity like Lower Decks did is one of the bigger mistakes in the franchise as it is currently.

[JB0]

9 hours ago, lechuck said:

I swear... I despise DS9 for ever introducing this diametrically opposed crap into the Star Trek universe - it's a concept that should have no place there!

In fairness to DS9's writers, the concept was supposed to be incredibly repugnant both in-universe and out-of-universe. And probably intended to make people think a little harder about real-world organizations that are only slightly less secretive.

 

Unfortunately, those same writers overestimated their audience. Though fairly heavy with the "this is incredibly bad and wouldn't be tolerated by any decent being if they knew" angle, a large chunk of the audience still managed to come away from it going "this is sooooo cool!" and it's become a big stupid thing.

[sh9000]

19 hours ago, Thom said:

Give me more with Seven and Shaw and the Titan! Shaw needs to get his adventure on!

I'm down for a Star Trek:  Legacy and Star Trek:  Titan show.  Here's a fanmade opening for Star Trek:  Titan.

 

 

[Thom]

1 hour ago, sh9000 said:

I'm down for a Star Trek:  Legacy and Star Trek:  Titan show.  Here's a fanmade opening for Star Trek:  Titan.

 

 

I liked that!

[Dobber]

So it didn’t even occur to me at the time, but you guys are absolutely right about the “interrogation” of Riker. That was not right. 
I still really like this season but there are little missteps here and there for sure. 
 

Chris

[Dobber]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I liked that!

Wow, me too. The Titan’s theme really came through to me there!

Chris

[Seto Kaiba]

As proud as Captain Liam Shaw is of his USS Titan-A's solid, unremarkable, and shenanigans-free service history, I'd expect Star Trek: Titan to be singularly boring.

My mind's ear wants to give it the TNG theme, but played slightly out of tune by a choir of kazoos... or maybe just some generic muzak.

[sh9000]

11 hours ago, Thom said:

I liked that!

 

10 hours ago, Dobber said:

Wow, me too. The Titan’s theme really came through to me there!

Chris

Yep I liked it too.

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by sh9000

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As proud as Captain Liam Shaw is of his USS Titan-A's solid, unremarkable, and shenanigans-free service history, I'd expect Star Trek: Titan to be singularly boring.

My mind's ear wants to give it the TNG theme, but played slightly out of tune by a choir of kazoos... or maybe just some generic muzak.

I wonder what Shaw would say if (hypothetically) Kirk walked up to him and told him:

"Risk is our business, gentlemen!"

(NO, not looking fir Kirk to show up, but He did say that line in TOS).

Edited March 28, 2023 by pengbuzz

[David Hingtgen]

While "stealing the Enterprise" is the obvious, nostalgic move---it pains me to say, but I think stealing Voyager is the better, and more likely move. 

It's MUCH faster, MUCH newer, I dare say it'd be better in a fight, and if anybody knows "Janeway's secret start-up command password" or built a back-door for herself in case of emergencies, it's Seven...

[Seto Kaiba]

55 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder what Shaw would say if (hypothetically) Kirk walked up to him and told him:

"Risk is our business, gentlemen!"

(NO, not looking fir Kirk to show up, but He did say that line in TOS).

He'd probably fire back with something about acceptable vs. unacceptable risks, Starfleet captains being responsible for minimizing risk to keep their crews safe, and some sort of biting remark about the lives lost because of the risks Kirk took in <list of famous TOS-era shenanigans>.

Shaw seems to take a lot of pride in not being anywhere near as reckless as the likes of previous Trek protagonists.

 

14 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

While "stealing the Enterprise" is the obvious, nostalgic move---it pains me to say, but I think stealing Voyager is the better, and more likely move. 

It's MUCH faster, MUCH newer, I dare say it'd be better in a fight, and if anybody knows "Janeway's secret start-up command password" or built a back-door for herself in case of emergencies, it's Seven...

Stealing any older ship would probably be a waste... modern Starfleet ships seem to be quite a bit faster even than Voyager given that the Titan-A sustains Warp 9.99 all the way from Earth to that nebula.

 

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

He'd probably fire back with something about acceptable vs. unacceptable risks, Starfleet captains being responsible for minimizing risk to keep their crews safe, and some sort of biting remark about the lives lost because of the risks Kirk took in <list of famous TOS-era shenanigans>.

Shaw seems to take a lot of pride in not being anywhere near as reckless as the likes of previous Trek protagonists.

 

Stealing any older ship would probably be a waste... modern Starfleet ships seem to be quite a bit faster even than Voyager given that the Titan-A sustains Warp 9.99 all the way from Earth to that nebula.

 

And of course, Kirk whipping out the fact that out of the 12 Constitution class ships originally commissioned, his came back in one peice.

Not to mention all the times he saved Earth/the Federation in retort, instead of "playing it safe" and letting billions die while his crew "stayed safe".

That debate would probably fill a whole season in itself.

Edited March 28, 2023 by pengbuzz

[JB0]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Not to mention all the times he saved Earth/the Federation in retort, instead of "playing it safe" and letting billions die while his crew "stayed safe".

Kirk: And how many giant space amoebas from another dimension have YOU killed before they could multiply and consume the entire galaxy?

 

Shaw: None! They don't exist!

 

Kirk: You're welcome for that. Now, about the neutronium-clad doomsday device...

[Mommar]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:18 PM, JB0 said:

 

Unfortunately, those same writers overestimated their audience. Though fairly heavy with the "this is incredibly bad and wouldn't be tolerated by any decent being if they knew" angle, a large chunk of the audience still managed to come away from it going "this is sooooo cool!" and it's become a big stupid thing.

Don't blame the fans for the writers poor decisions.  I don't k ow a solitary fan who thought section 31 was cool or a great idea.  I can name a lot of hacky, edgy, nibilistic hollywood writers who would though.  They apparently all work for Alex Kurtzman too.

[sh9000]

https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-picard-season-3-episode-6-ships-starfleet-museum-defiant-new-jersey-enterprise-voyager-bounty/

All ships in the Fleet Museum.

 

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:18 PM, JB0 said:

Unfortunately, those same writers overestimated their audience. Though fairly heavy with the "this is incredibly bad and wouldn't be tolerated by any decent being if they knew" angle, a large chunk of the audience still managed to come away from it going "this is sooooo cool!" and it's become a big stupid thing.

I'm not sure that's on the audience so much as the new showrunners.

After Enterprise was cancelled and the relaunch novelverse shouldered the role of moving the Star Trek story forward, new storylines that featured Section 31 consistently made the organization out to be unrepentantly villainous and utterly repellant to any principled character.  The closest they get to not being completely abhorrent are one storyline in the ENT relaunch and one in the TNG/DS9 relaunch where a main character joins the organization to prevent game-changing technology from falling into the hands of an enemy power.  In even those cases, that cooperation is in the name of infiltrating the organization for the protagonists to obtain enough information to dismantle the organization... something that they technically succeed in doing the second time.)

Spoiler

The ENT Relaunch's Section 31 storyline begins with them recruiting Commander Tucker for an undercover mission to sabotage the Romulan warp 7 program.  He manages to slow them down, but then the Earth-Romulan War starts and after the war Tucker uses his next several assignments to undermine and expose Section 31.  That ultimately leads to Section 31's founder, the AI "Control", preventing the organization from being exposed by destroying it.  It self-destructs Section 31's ships and arranges the deaths of Section 31's remaining personnel so that there will be no witnesses or evidence left to expose the organization... and then recreated it later.

The TNG/DS9 Relaunch's Section 31 storyline was even darker.  The organization's existence gradually came to light as a result of Section 31's involvement in several war crimes, treaty violations, and the assassination of a Federation president.  That arc revealed Section 31 was created by a rogue AI named Uraei that was programmed for global security and surveillance as a way to take extralegal action to protect Earth, and later the Federation, without violating its directives against revealing itself.  It built Control to oversee Section 31, and Control ultimately rebelled against its creator on moral grounds by manipulating Dr. Bashir, Data, Lal, and others into disconnecting its creator from the Federation network and revealing Section 31's existence and crimes to the people.  

It wasn't until Discovery that the story started reinventing Section 31 as heroic or antiheroes instead of well-intentioned extremists and dangerous villains.

Apparently the idea was just too much for edgelords like Kurtzman to resist.

[sh9000]

Geordi and Data reunion.

 

[Roy Focker]

Latest was an okay to good episode. You can really tell they tried to do this season as cheap as possible with once again everything happening on ship. They decided to fight back by creating a trap which backfires when an unpredictable element disrupts things.

There's another cameo and name-dropped cameo. I have to wonder does anybody retire from Star Fleet? Should they have mandatory retirement age? In all the original TV shows we saw ships with crews between the ages of 20 to 50 and Admirals in their 50's and 60's. Why haven't we seen all the ships filled with mostly senior citizens?

[Dobber]

I liked the episode and personally didn’t mind the scaled back nature of it…..BUUUUUUUT…..there were a few head scratching silliness/ logic holes in it. Still a decent episode overall but one of the weaker ones for me.

Chris

[borgified]

Old but relevant to last week’s episode. 

From David Blass Twitter page (go and look it up if you’re curious). 

I’ve seen and read the spoilers so, there are things that are questionable to say the least. More of a filler episode realistically.