Star Trek: Picard (CBS All-Access)

[pengbuzz]

1 minute ago, valkyrie_cadman said:

Where do we go to petition so that we can get a series with Todd Stashwick as Captain Shaw with the Titan the same way that Anson Mount got his own show as Captain Pike in "Strange New Worlds"...?????

I'd actually like to see them do that!

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, valkyrie_cadman said:

Where do we go to petition so that we can get a series with Todd Stashwick as Captain Shaw with the Titan the same way that Anson Mount got his own show as Captain Pike in "Strange New Worlds"...?????

He is hands down the most likeable character in Picard's third season, but given that his particular schtick is being an uptight and by-the-book captain he probably wouldn't make a very interesting protagonist.  In a more lighthearted series like Strange New Worlds, he'd be more of an Arnold J. Rimmer.

[Roy Focker]

This show has been okay. I'm afraid the whole mystery is going to so stupid that it will ruin everything.

[sh9000]

Loved episode 4.  Can't wait for episode 5.  I'd watch a Star Trek:  Titan spinoff with Captain Shaw and Commander Seven.

 

 

[Dobber]

“Apologies, at some point Charming was replaced by a-hole” 😄

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

He is hands down the most likeable character in Picard's third season, but given that his particular schtick is being an uptight and by-the-book captain he probably wouldn't make a very interesting protagonist.  In a more lighthearted series like Strange New Worlds, he'd be more of an Arnold J. Rimmer.

Well, that could be a starting point for him to develop from. But I don't think the current writers are skilled or savvy enough to write a compelling story arc for that.

[Thom]

2 hours ago, valkyrie_cadman said:

Where do we go to petition so that we can get a series with Todd Stashwick as Captain Shaw with the Titan the same way that Anson Mount got his own show as Captain Pike in "Strange New Worlds"...?????

Shaw wouldn't be by first choice. He's not very decisive unless he's being goaded, and he's more than a little bit of an a-hole, IMO.

Into season 2 and my first choice would have been Rios. Would have been nice to see his adventures on the Stargazer, but of course he dead now...

Now, it would most definitely be Seven. I would be all up for a Star Trek Titan series with Seven in the Big Chair!

As for 'most likable,' Riker obviously. He's always been a very affable character with some good writing. Seven is a close second, as she's more than a bit of a hard-arse, but she's a likable hard-arse.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Thom

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, that could be a starting point for him to develop from. But I don't think the current writers are skilled or savvy enough to write a compelling story arc for that.

True, though when they try that (e.g. Janeway) the writing tends to end up terribly uneven... even with far better writers than Star Trek currently has.

IMO, while Captain Shaw is clearly meant to be an a-hole from the perspective of the main characters, he seems to mainly just be a "I run a tight ship" type who is irritated to hell and back by being browbeaten into Picard and Riker's rogue operation based on blatant lies and misdirection.  I get the feeling he's probably a lot more pleasant when he's not smarting over being massively disrespected on his own ship.  

The one dickish trait he has that's seemingly not motivated by his dislike of Picard and Riker treating him poorly is insisting Seven use her legal name.  Whether that's some lingering trauma from his being a Wolf 359 survivor like Ben Sisko or there's some Starfleet regulation requiring crew use their legal names in official duty remains to be seen.  (It wouldn't be the first time Starfleet regs were mildly insensitive to the individual needs of certain minorities.  Like how Bajorans weren't permitted to wear their earrings on duty without the ship's captain granting an exception to that part of the uniform code in TNG.)

 

Given that Discovery and Picard have been something of a failed experiment, I kind of suspect they'll want to shift focus away from the characters and settings used in those shows to the better-received ones like Lower Decks, Strange New Worlds, and Prodigy.  Michelle Yeoh's Section 31 spinoff is probably dead, and I wager they'd probably reject an offer of a Titan spinoff with Jeri Ryan too for fear of shunning-by-association with Picard.

[Thom]

Shaw seems to be the type of officer who is more comfortable in his office. A good example is Seven taking the ship out of space dock. Picard and Riker showed surprise at that, while Seven's reaction was taking it in normal stride. Then there's his decision to not welcome visiting officers, one of them an admiral(r) himself, but shifting that off on an officer he clearly holds in-contempt. Even knowing their reputations and not agreeing with them, he should be professional enough to do his job as captain.

And getting back to a previous point about whether they should have handed over Jack, or even if they had jurisdiction to do so, I always thought a case like this was similar to the USN. Each ship, no matter where it is, is considered sovereign territory of the country it serves. They may be outside Federation space, but the Titan itself is (or should be) considered Federation territory.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Thom

[azrael]

Now that we're farther along, Shaw reminds me of a Commander Fisk from BSG.

Spoiler

So Shaw is another veteran/survivor of Wolf 359. Gotta wonder how many other Siskos, Shaws, etc. are still out there. All with PTSD. The Dominion War was probably nothing compared to the slaughter-fest of a Borg-encounter.

Also, can we keep Terry Matalas for a showrunner of more Trek? Seems like we found someone who can actually do it some justice (well...anyone is better than Kurtzman...). Ok, to be fair, Matalas did have his humble beginnings writing for Voyager and Enterprise, so at least he has history with the franchise.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

True, though when they try that (e.g. Janeway) the writing tends to end up terribly uneven... even with far better writers than Star Trek currently has.

IMO, while Captain Shaw is clearly meant to be an a-hole from the perspective of the main characters, he seems to mainly just be a "I run a tight ship" type who is irritated to hell and back by being browbeaten into Picard and Riker's rogue operation based on blatant lies and misdirection.  I get the feeling he's probably a lot more pleasant when he's not smarting over being massively disrespected on his own ship.  

The one dickish trait he has that's seemingly not motivated by his dislike of Picard and Riker treating him poorly is insisting Seven use her legal name.  Whether that's some lingering trauma from his being a Wolf 359 survivor like Ben Sisko or there's some Starfleet regulation requiring crew use their legal names in official duty remains to be seen.  (It wouldn't be the first time Starfleet regs were mildly insensitive to the individual needs of certain minorities.  Like how Bajorans weren't permitted to wear their earrings on duty without the ship's captain granting an exception to that part of the uniform code in TNG.)

I would guess that Shaw having been an engineer leads him to not want to get his ship wrecked unless it's an absolute necessity (for one thing). For another: Wolf 359 is enough to do anyone severe psychological harm in spades to anyone directly involved in that bloodbath. Having Seven use her real name is most likely his way of not being confronted by that part of his history every time he has to talk to his fist officer.

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

Given that Discovery and Picard have been something of a failed experiment, I kind of suspect they'll want to shift focus away from the characters and settings used in those shows to the better-received ones like Lower Decks, Strange New Worlds, and Prodigy.  Michelle Yeoh's Section 31 spinoff is probably dead, and I wager they'd probably reject an offer of a Titan spinoff with Jeri Ryan too for fear of shunning-by-association with Picard.

While that's true, STW was the spinoff from DSC. And the thing those other shows you mentioned have going for them is they are more light-hearted than The Burnham Show or My Whiny Elder Years.

[JB0]

Man, remember when Starfleet vessels had therapists on board to help the crew deal with traumatic experiences in a healthy manner instead of running around with massive PTSD?

[sh9000]

 

[Thom]

Episode 4 was great! I loved that one. Whomever was in charge of that, give them everything! And there was very little fighting/combat and more getting into the meat of the characters, and without tossing blame about. They talked to each other and tried to reach level ground rather than falling apart, which was awesome. The moments with Picard and Jack were very well done, including the flashbacks...
 

Spoiler

...which explain Jack's decision to not meet his father. Damn that was such a poignant moment, esp when Picard finally realized that flippant statement to young cadets held far more weight and power than he had realized. And very nice seeing Seven go to Shaw for help and them pulling together for the good of the ship. And then how they flipped the humorous  moment between Picard/Jack to something far darker with Shaw giving his own story. That was hard.

And then it was very TNG with Beverly making the connection about the nebula and a way to get themselves out.

This was the best episode of the season, and I'm really hoping it was not a one-time thing. It needs this level of cohesive story and writing from here on out.

I hope.

[Lolicon]

Ep4 was good. So far season 3 is way better than the previous seasons, though that's an extremely low bar.

Remains to be seen whether any of these story threads lead anywhere interesting.

Actually liking Captain Shaw a lot.

[Dobber]

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

…………

The one dickish trait he has that's seemingly not motivated by his dislike of Picard and Riker treating him poorly is insisting Seven use her legal name.  Whether that's some lingering trauma from his being a Wolf 359 survivor like Ben Sisko or there's some Starfleet regulation requiring crew use their legal names in official duty remains to be seen.  (It wouldn't be the first time Starfleet regs were mildly insensitive to the individual needs of certain minorities.  Like how Bajorans weren't permitted to wear their earrings on duty without the ship's captain granting an exception to that part of the uniform code in TNG.)

…..

I agree, both on his insistence and also on the writer’s ability to make him a nuanced character in this regard. After this episode while I still don’t agree with the disrespect he gives Seven,  I also think if people would view this action from a slightly different perspective….say a woman traumatized by a gang, whose members use gang names. She then is around a former member of that gang who insists on still using that gang name, said woman would be given a lot  more understanding and leniency in this regard. Watching his ready room interview with Wil Wheaton was also fabulous. I loved how when they were talking about how Shaw doesn’t have the same awe that others have for Picard and Riker…and rightly so. Riker literally said in the first episode that he and Picard just need to “con” the Captain. He’s right that from Shan’s POV they have betrayed their oaths to Star Fleet. That Shaw and his crew where in essence expendable to their goals. I would love a show with Shaw and the Titan. Also I can’t help but wonder for people like Shaw or Sisko etc who survived Wolf 359 and Locutus…how much of Locutus was informed by Picard or how much of Picard now is influenced by Locutus? Was Picard selected as spokesperson of the Borg because he was Captain or did the Borg see something else in him? From their POV Picard still insists on his way…see above about using Shaw and the Titan… and likely other instances of breaking the rules for what he believes is the greater good. It would be kind of scary from the point of view of someone who is not informed as we are as the audience, to have to live with the mess or the destruction in these “Legends” wakes. I just appreciate the more nuanced look we are being given for the first time in a while in Trek. 
 

edit: apologies, I’m not very good at writing down my thoughts or fully articulating them, but I hope I was able to make a little sense. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Chris

Edited March 10, 2023 by Dobber

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I would guess that Shaw having been an engineer leads him to not want to get his ship wrecked unless it's an absolute necessity (for one thing).

Considering the sheer number and profusion of ways in which starships in Star Trek are inclined to violently explode when damaged, I can't imagine any starship captain wouldn't be profoundly upset that his ship is taking damage unnecessarily or avoidably.

 

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

For another: Wolf 359 is enough to do anyone severe psychological harm in spades to anyone directly involved in that bloodbath. Having Seven use her real name is most likely his way of not being confronted by that part of his history every time he has to talk to his fist officer.

Shaw being a dick to Seven about insisting she use her original/legal name is one thing... but what blithering idiot at Starfleet Command decided to assign the only ex-Borg who's actually, vocally proud to have been a Borg to serve as executive officer to a captain who was one of the few survivors of the Wolf 359 massacre?  That's tapdancing on the triggers for this poor schlub's PTSD.

Spoiler

Made all the worse when you realize he's probably suffering a fair amount of survivor's guilt on top of his PTSD, having been one of ten randomly chosen officers to take the last lifepod the USS Constance had, leaving forty of his colleagues behind to die or be assimilated.

Literally any other ex-Borg except maybe Picard himself would probably have been fine... but Seven?  The worst possible staffing decision.

Having Picard around probably ain't helping matters either... given Shaw's feelings on the subject of Locutus of Borg.

 

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

While that's true, STW was the spinoff from DSC. And the thing those other shows you mentioned have going for them is they are more light-hearted than The Burnham Show or My Whiny Elder Years.

Now that's hardly fair.  Strange New Worlds has wit, charm, style... it's actually fun and the crew of the Enterprise actually seem to be having fun together.  Lower Decks is a bit full of itself trying to be Rick and Morty and all, but even that manages to find some genuine humor and fun among the firehose-like torrent of injokes.

It's a galaxy apart from the miserable business of Picard and Discovery.  

 

Just now, Dobber said:

I loved how when they were talking about how Shaw doesn’t have the same awe that others have for Picard and Riker…and rightly so. Riker literally said in the first episode that he and Picard just need to “con” the Captain. He’s right that from Shan’s POV they have betrayed their oaths to Star Fleet. That Shaw and his crew where in essence expendable to their goals.

Honestly, one of the things I like best about Captain Shaw is that he's not written as some old friend or protégé of Picard or Riker's and that he doesn't give Picard and Riker a pass on their bullsh*t.  He doesn't launch into a Picard Speech about the value of honesty and respect, or go on a Jellico-esque rant about insubordination, he just returns the disrespect he's been shown in little ways like putting the retired stowaways in the most uncomfortable quarters he has instead of posh guest quarters and taking the occasional jab at the ego involved in doing what they attempted to do.  He indulges them, but he makes sure they understand they're there under sufferance.  He understands that Picard is a diplomat first and foremost, and needles him in ways calculated to annoy the piss out of a diplomat.

 

Just now, Dobber said:

I would love a show with Shaw and the Titan. Also I can’t help but wonder for people like Shaw or Sisko etc who survived Wolf 359 and Locutus…how much of Locutus was informed by Picard or how much of Picard now is influenced by Locutus? Was Picard selected as spokesperson of the Borg because he was Captain or did the Borg see something else in him?

The Borg do actually explain their reasoning to Picard after they abduct him but before they assimilate him in "The Best of Both Worlds".

Quote

"Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people."
"I have nothing to say to you! And I will resist you with my last ounce of strength!"
"Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours."
"Impossible! My culture is based on freedom and self-determination!"
"Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply."
"We would rather die!"
"Death is irrelevant. Your archaic cultures are authority-driven. To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a Human voice will speak for us in all communications. You have been chosen to be that voice."

The Borg chose Picard because they concluded his position as captain of the Federation flagship and Starfleet's leading diplomat made him the perfect authority figure to cow the masses in the Federation's "authority-driven" society.

 

Just now, Dobber said:

From their POV Picard still insists on his way…see above about using Shaw and the Titan… and likely other instances of breaking the rules for what he believes is the greater good. It would be kind of scary from the point of view of someone who is not informed as we are as the audience, to have to live with the mess or the destruction in these “Legends” wakes. I just appreciate the more nuanced look we are being given for the first time in a while in Trek. 

One of the more entertaining takes I remember from the Star Trek novelverse was that the reason Starfleet didn't follow up on a lot of the Enterprise's discoveries in Kirk's era was that the reports were so outlandish and bizarre that there was a faction at Starfleet Command that sincerely believed Kirk was trolling them with fake reports.

There's probably a replicator that dispenses only pepto-bismol, antacid tablets, and alcohol in whatever Starfleet Command conference room they use to discuss the latest antics of the USS Enterprise.

[sh9000]

Concept art.

[Dobber]

1 hour ago, sh9000 said:

Concept art.

Love that!

Chris

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering the sheer number and profusion of ways in which starships in Star Trek are inclined to violently explode when damaged, I can't imagine any starship captain wouldn't be profoundly upset that his ship is taking damage unnecessarily or avoidably.

Guess the Explodium trade is alive and well in the 25th Century.

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Shaw being a dick to Seven about insisting she use her original/legal name is one thing... but what blithering idiot at Starfleet Command decided to assign the only ex-Borg who's actually, vocally proud to have been a Borg to serve as executive officer to a captain who was one of the few survivors of the Wolf 359 massacre?  That's tapdancing on the triggers for this poor schlub's PTSD.

  Reveal hidden contents

Made all the worse when you realize he's probably suffering a fair amount of survivor's guilt on top of his PTSD, having been one of ten randomly chosen officers to take the last lifepod the USS Constance had, leaving forty of his colleagues behind to die or be assimilated.

Literally any other ex-Borg except maybe Picard himself would probably have been fine... but Seven?  The worst possible staffing decision.

Having Picard around probably ain't helping matters either... given Shaw's feelings on the subject of Locutus of Borg.

Also: it looks like Starfleet still insists on hiring morons.

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Now that's hardly fair.  Strange New Worlds has wit, charm, style... it's actually fun and the crew of the Enterprise actually seem to be having fun together.  Lower Decks is a bit full of itself trying to be Rick and Morty and all, but even that manages to find some genuine humor and fun among the firehose-like torrent of injokes.

It's a galaxy apart from the miserable business of Picard and Discovery.  

Really wasn't meant to be fair, just an observation of how those shows came from DSC and managed not to emcumber themselves with the depressive grimdark and whinery.

On that note: it's fitting that Jean-Luc owns a vineyard, seeing how much whine he produces.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Honestly, one of the things I like best about Captain Shaw is that he's not written as some old friend or protégé of Picard or Riker's and that he doesn't give Picard and Riker a pass on their bullsh*t.  He doesn't launch into a Picard Speech about the value of honesty and respect, or go on a Jellico-esque rant about insubordination, he just returns the disrespect he's been shown in little ways like putting the retired stowaways in the most uncomfortable quarters he has instead of posh guest quarters and taking the occasional jab at the ego involved in doing what they attempted to do.  He indulges them, but he makes sure they understand they're there under sufferance.  He understands that Picard is a diplomat first and foremost, and needles him in ways calculated to annoy the piss out of a diplomat.

Yeah, he tends to be a bit pragmatic, given his background. Now...imagine him on an away mission?!

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Guess the Explodium trade is alive and well in the 25th Century.

And for quite a few centuries after that, if Discovery's third season is any indication.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Also: it looks like Starfleet still insists on hiring morons.

Or at least promoting them.  

Lower Decks offered an interesting take on the reason Starfleet's upper echelons seem to be so generously provisioned with Admirals of questionable character and/or sanity.  Once an officer makes Commodore (or above), they're basically stuck as a pencil-pusher in a glorified sinecure unless they do something to distinguish themselves.  The ones who continue the climb up the ranks are that good or a chosen obsession that's useful or timely, while the "insane Admiral" types are the ones whose ambitions don't work out. 

It seems likely that the brass making these questionable personnel assignments are the ones who didn't feel like trying after they got an office with a desk.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah, he tends to be a bit pragmatic, given his background. Now...imagine him on an away mission?!

Shaw seems like the kind of Captain who leaves nothing to chance if he can help it.  He'll send down an away team, but armed and with comm channels open and an armed security team on hot standby in another transporter room just in case.  Ironically, if he could just get along with her, he'd probably find Seven's ruthless pragmatism extremely helpful in that regard.

[Thom]

"The light switch! Look, it's right there!"

(inspired from a pic on the Face)

As for Shaw, keep in mind, this is a captain who was so disinterested in the working of his own ship, that he was unaware they were off course for the entire trip from Earth to beyond Federation space. 😁

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Shaw seems like the kind of Captain who leaves nothing to chance if he can help it.  He'll send down an away team, but armed and with comm channels open and an armed security team on hot standby in another transporter room just in case.  Ironically, if he could just get along with her, he'd probably find Seven's ruthless pragmatism extremely helpful in that regard.

Probably has a demotivational poster on his office wall: "You may test that assumption at your convenience."

  

2 hours ago, Thom said:

As for Shaw, keep in mind, this is a captain who was so disinterested in the working of his own ship, that he was unaware they were off course for the entire trip from Earth to beyond Federation space. 😁

I think once he found out Picard and Riker were on board, he really didn't want much to do with them. I also think he probably didn't think Seven would commandeer the ship and run a nav course that he hadn't approved.

Edited March 11, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, Thom said:

As for Shaw, keep in mind, this is a captain who was so disinterested in the working of his own ship, that he was unaware they were off course for the entire trip from Earth to beyond Federation space. 😁

In all fairness to Captain Shaw, there are three mitigating factors in play there:

1. The edge of Federation space is shockingly close to Earth in several different directions due to the close proximity of Klingon and Romulan space.  (Demonstrated aptly in several previous titles, including Star Trek: First Contact and Star Trek: Nemesis.)
2. The Titan-A was REALLY humming... Seven states that they're off at Warp 9.99.  The official warp formula breaks down into a log scale above Warp 9, but dialog from TNG puts that at around 8,760c and potentially as high as 9,000c.  That's a light year per hour, plus or minus about two minutes.  At that speed, the Romulan Neutral Zone's only about a day away from Earth.  
3. Shaw didn't really have a reason to believe that Seven would set a completely different course from what was ordered at the behest of two old fogeys who snuck aboard his ship under false pretenses.  That'd be massively unprofessional behavior from someone nearly as starchy as him.  It's not exactly unreasonable for him to be surprised by that, even if it's technically negligent of him to have not checked to ensure they were on the right course.  

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

1. Shaw didn't really have a reason to believe that Seven would set a completely different course from what was ordered at the behest of two old fogeys who snuck aboard his ship under false pretenses.  That'd be massively unprofessional behavior from someone nearly as starchy as him.  It's not exactly unreasonable for him to be surprised by that, even if it's technically negligent of him to have not checked to ensure they were on the right course.  

That was my point earlier: he really didn't think Seven would pull a stunt like that. Basically, she's guilty of mutiny.  And as I mentioned earlier: he probably didn't want much to do with Picard/Riker, who were parked on the bridge.

[JB0]

There's an interesting point in there. He doesn't LIKE Seven. There's a case to be made that he actively hates her, for no good reason whatsoever

But he TRUSTS her. His personal dislike does not interfere with his command decisions.

 

He simply assumes that she is a member of his crew and can be assumed to not fly off the handle and help a couple of elderly loons execute a harebrained scheme to steal his vessel right from under him, regardless of how he personally feels about Borg, ex-Borg, and semi-Borg.

Because that's how we roll in the future. We shouldn't be racists at all, but if we're going to do we can at least be civil about it.

Edited March 11, 2023 by JB0

[Thom]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In all fairness to Captain Shaw,..

 

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

That was my point earlier: he really didn't think Seven would pull a stunt like that. ...

 

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

There's an interesting point in there. He doesn't LIKE Seven. There's a case to be made that he actively hates her, for no good reason whatsoever...

I concede! It was more of a gripey comment anyway.

His initial scenes didn't show someone who inspires respect or loyalty. That coupled with his attitude disaffecting his own first officer, who was then questioning if she had made the right choice, did not make a good mix. His most recent scenes are showing him a lot better, which is good. I could get to like him.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Thom

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

 

 

I concede! It was more of a gripey comment anyway.

His initial scenes didn't show someone who inspires respect or loyalty. That coupled with his attitude disaffecting his own first officer, who was then questioning if she had made the right choice, did not make a good mix. His most recent scenes are showing him a lot better, which is good. I could get to like him.

 

 

Okay... for my concession, I'll take a Shamrock Shake.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

There's an interesting point in there. He doesn't LIKE Seven. There's a case to be made that he actively hates her, for no good reason whatsoever

But he TRUSTS her. His personal dislike does not interfere with his command decisions.

 

He simply assumes that she is a member of his crew and can be assumed to not fly off the handle and help a couple of elderly loons execute a harebrained scheme to steal his vessel right from under him, regardless of how he personally feels about Borg, ex-Borg, and semi-Borg.

Because that's how we roll in the future. We shouldn't be racists at all, but if we're going to do we can at least be civil about it.

Which is 100% more actual Starfleet behavior than practically anything we saw on Discovery or in the first two seasons of Picard.

Admittedly, the Shaw-Seven situation raises an interesting (to me, anyway) question about the Alpha (and Beta) quadrant's relationship with ex-Borg.  Back in Voyager, we didn't really think anything of Seven and the partially assimilated children she rescues in Voyager's sixth season retaining some Borg mannerisms and even making the occasional remark about all the ways the Borg do things better than Starfleet.  USS Voyager was already kind of a ship full of weirdos that'd relaxed their standards somewhat in the expectation of having to work and live together for decades in order to get back to the Alpha quadrant, so everyone there just sort of took it in stride as "Seven being Seven".  The Alpha and Beta quadrants haven't suffered quite as much as the Delta quadrant has under the hand of the Borg, but there are still a lot of people who lost friends and loved ones in the various Borg incursions and two major Borg attacks on Earth.  

Shaw's insistence on Seven using her legal (human) name instead of her chosen name on duty is clearly meant to reflect a certain politically-loaded issue we won't get into here... and while that works on an individual level with Seven specifically, it doesn't quite track on a macro level because the Borg were/are an existential threat to sentient life that's destroyed at least several thousand civilizations thus far.  

To that end, wouldn't Seven's vocal pride in being a Borg be at best insensitive and at worst massively offensive to pretty much everyone in the Alpha and Beta quadrants?  (And likely quite a lot of the Delta quadrant too.)  We're supposed to think of Liam Shaw as a jerk for insisting she use her birth name, but she's rubbing her affiliation with a Federation enemy in everyone's face... especially those who've lost friends, loved ones, and colleagues to them like Liam Shaw.  

(It's actually kind of amazing that Jean-Luc Picard regards her with such affection, considering his feelings on the Borg.)

[Thom]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay... for my concession, I'll take a Shamrock Shake.

Sure, I'll get that right in the mail!😁

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

...

To that end, wouldn't Seven's vocal pride in being a Borg be at best insensitive and at worst massively offensive to pretty much everyone in the Alpha and Beta quadrants?  (And likely quite a lot of the Delta quadrant too.)  We're supposed to think of Liam Shaw as a jerk for insisting she use her birth name, but she's rubbing her affiliation with a Federation enemy in everyone's face... especially those who've lost friends, loved ones, and colleagues to them like Liam Shaw.  

(It's actually kind of amazing that Jean-Luc Picard regards her with such affection, considering his feelings on the Borg.)

I don't see it as her 'rubbing' herself in everyone's faces. 'Seven' is her name. She stopped being Annika Hanson when she was assimilated and stopped being Seven-of-Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix 01 when she joined Voyager. Seven is a amalgam of them both. That is not a statement, that is simply who she is. And most often when talking about the Borg in comparison to the Federation, it's from the stand-point of efficiency, in which she is not wrong. Being of a hive-mind, the Borg are more efficient. But I would think if she thought the Borg were still better, then she would have gone back to them by now.

A better question would be, why hasn't she changed her name legally to Seven of Nine..?

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Thom

[sh9000]

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I don't see it as her 'rubbing' herself in everyone's faces. 'Seven' is her name. She stopped being Annika Hanson when she was assimilated and stopped being Seven-of-Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix 01 when she joined Voyager. Seven is a amalgam of them both. That is not a statement, that is simply who she is. And most often when talking about the Borg in comparison to the Federation, it's from the stand-point of efficiency, in which she is not wrong. Being of a hive-mind, the Borg are more efficient.

Is it, though?

She was uncomfortable with using her original human name when the USS Voyager crew removed her from the Borg Collective and started removing her Borg implants.  However, we saw that she went by, and thought of herself as, "Annika" in the titular virtual reality of the two-parter "Unimatrix Zero", went by her human name after being mind-wiped as a laborer on the Quarren homeworld, and was warming up to the use of her original human identity towards the end of Star Trek: Voyager.  The first season of Star Trek: Picard implies that that continued, with her apparently using the name "Annika" in public life at least up to 2386 when Icheb died.  

(Regardless of the factuality of her remarks, her... admiration... for the Borg is unlikely to be well-received by basically anybody in the Alpha or Beta quadrants.  By Federation standards, that'd be what TV Tropes calls "Admiring the Abomination".)

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

But I would think if she thought the Borg were still better, then she would have gone back to them by now.

She tried.  Several times.  Actually succeeded once as part of a botched attempt to steal a transwarp coil, before having second thoughts about it when the Borg Queen decided that maximum creepy was the best way to convince Seven to be voluntarily reassimilated.  Failed another time because there were no Borg waiting at the Borg beacon she went to.

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

A better question would be, why hasn't she changed her name legally to Seven of Nine..?

Dunno.

It seems unlikely that whatever Federation bureau or ministry is responsible for ID documents would object to numbers as a name, considering the Bynars are apparently either a Federation member or close ally and their entire species has numbers for names.  Maybe she just expected that whatever Starfleet captain she ended up with would be as lenient towards her as Janeway was and got stuck with a hardass instead.  "Stardust City Rag" seems to imply she's using her Borg designation as some kind psychological reaction to her trust being betrayed in a way that led to Icheb's death.

(As noted above, there is evidence in Picard itself that she was using her birth name in public life after USS Voyager returned to Federation space.)

[Thom]

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Is it, though?

She was uncomfortable with using her original human name when the USS Voyager crew removed her from the Borg Collective and started removing her Borg implants.  However, we saw that she went by, and thought of herself as, "Annika" in the titular virtual reality of the two-parter "Unimatrix Zero", went by her human name after being mind-wiped as a laborer on the Quarren homeworld, and was warming up to the use of her original human identity towards the end of Star Trek: Voyager.  The first season of Star Trek: Picard implies that that continued, with her apparently using the name "Annika" in public life at least up to 2386 when Icheb died.  

(Regardless of the factuality of her remarks, her... admiration... for the Borg is unlikely to be well-received by basically anybody in the Alpha or Beta quadrants.  By Federation standards, that'd be what TV Tropes calls "Admiring the Abomination".)

 

She tried.  Several times.  Actually succeeded once as part of a botched attempt to steal a transwarp coil, before having second thoughts about it when the Borg Queen decided that maximum creepy was the best way to convince Seven to be voluntarily reassimilated.  Failed another time because there were no Borg waiting at the Borg beacon she went to.

 

Dunno.

It seems unlikely that whatever Federation bureau or ministry is responsible for ID documents would object to numbers as a name, considering the Bynars are apparently either a Federation member or close ally and their entire species has numbers for names.  Maybe she just expected that whatever Starfleet captain she ended up with would be as lenient towards her as Janeway was and got stuck with a hardass instead.  "Stardust City Rag" seems to imply she's using her Borg designation as some kind psychological reaction to her trust being betrayed in a way that led to Icheb's death.

(As noted above, there is evidence in Picard itself that she was using her birth name in public life after USS Voyager returned to Federation space.)

My point is that she is not with them anymore, not that she didn't try. She was part of the Collective from the time she was six years old, so I can well imagine her wanting to run 'home' every now and then. Same with using her birth name. She was trying it before, and maybe ultimately she decided she would stay with Seven. Or maybe Shaw insisted on using Hansen when she may have said, 'You can call be, Seven,' and she's rebelling a bit against that? Or perhaps the writers of those episodes were not the writers of these episodes..? (shrug)

[pengbuzz]

Concerning Seven, being with the Borg since she was 6 and then in the crew aboard Voyager, she had quite a bit of "back and forth" between her human identity and her Borg one, as evidenced by the times she tried to go back and those times she returned. I suspect she wanted the continual presence and sense of belonging she had with the Borg, but was unwilling to sacrifice the friendships and sense of self she had onboard Voyager. (*IRL, as someone who has had to deal with reasserting my original identity after grueling circumstances, you an end up as neither/ both, as you have parts of both and yet belong to neither. You end up longing for the comforts/ familiarity of one when the other isn't working like you would hope.)

Now, as far as her being in Starfleet at a command-level rank; you would think that she would have at some training for her regarding interpersonal relations in a command role before being promoted/ assigned to ehr current posting. Knowing that the Borg had caused as much damage as they did and the tool they took on the Federation and her allies/ enemies, I don't think actively seeking to promote a nomenclature for herself that could potentially trigger PTSD and other sorts of pain amongst crew who may have been at either Wolf 359 or the Battle of Sector 001 (ST: FC) would be a move that Starfleet or the Federation would appreciate. At the very least, the Ship's Counselor would have something to say about the deleterious effect that calling her "Seven" would have on crew members.

[camk4evr]

While this was probably the best episode of Star Trek: Picard s to date it does bring up (yet again) the question 'How the hell did Shaw get command of a Starship?'