Star Trek: Picard (CBS All-Access)

[pengbuzz]

One salient point I'd like to bring up also about Dr. Crusher having Picard's son:

By the time of Nemesis, she was already 55 years old!!!!!

This means that if "Jack" is really her son by Picard, not only did she not use protection, but had to use a LOT of medical help to get pregnant!

Nice job Bev... you're a scheming little tart...

  

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's the very episode that Lower Decks was spoofing with the "Medical Ethics" simulation:

If Lower Decks is canon - and in this case I dearly hope it is because this is hilarious - Dr. Beverly Crusher's lack of professionalism is apparently so widely known that one of her very worst lapses of medical ethics is the basis for a standard Starfleet training simulation.  Even funnier, this particular ethics test was apparently so appallingly easy for trained Starfleet medical personnel that the drill administrator had to scrape the absolute bottom of the barrel (the crew of the USS Cerritos) AND tweak the difficulty level to find someone capable of actually failing it.

Finding someone who could do as bad a job of respecting a patient's culture and wishes as Beverly Crusher required not only finding Starfleet's worst of the worst... but cheating too.

IIRC, it was another doctor (Toby Russell), who was acting unethical and was trying to pioneer a risky surgery on Worf, not Dr. Crusher. It took Picard talking to Beverly to even get her to let Worf decide if he wanted the surgery or not.

(admittedly, been a while since I saw the episode, but that's what I recall).

Edited March 5, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Thom]

18 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

One salient point I'd like to bring up also about Dr. Crusher having Picard's son:

By the time of Nemesis, she was already 55 years old!!!!!

This means that if "Jack" is really her son by Picard, not only did she not use protection, but had to use a LOT of medical help to get pregnant!

Nice job Bev... you're a scheming little tart....

We actually don't know how medical sciences, much less evolution, has altered the time a woman has in order to get pregnant. For all we know, there is no menopause anymore and women, like men, can produce their half of the equation right up until death.

I'd say all of this has everything to do with bad writing rather than the character scheming or being inherently bad. I think this is more likely...

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Thom

[pengbuzz]

3 minutes ago, Thom said:

We actually don't know how medical sciences, much less evolution, has altered the time a woman has in order to get pregnant. For all we know, there is no menopause anymore and women, like men, can produce their half of the equation right up until death.

I'd say all of this has everything to do with bad writing rather than the character scheming or being inherently bad. I think this is more likely...

 

 

From what I know of menopause, women are born with all the eggs they will ever produce in their lifetimes, so there are going to be limits.

Edited March 5, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Thom]

3 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

From what I know of menopause, women are born with all the eggs they will ever produce in their lifetimes, so there are going to be limits.

That's the thing though, 'for all we know' ovaries could be made to produce more, like taking a kidney pill.😉

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

As for Jack Crusher, yes he's a criminal, but as we saw in that flashback the trading of illegal booze was to get medical supplies to a beleaguered world. I would go along that thread to say that all the other charges were also to further that ultimate goal.

He does what he has to for a bigger purpose, even if that upsets what constitutes local law enforcement. I'd hazard a theory, that a lot of the pressure to arrest him may be from people he's made enemies of while doing that as, again in the flashback, those people on the planet were being allowed to die off in order to open up a claim for that world. People who do that won't like it when their nefarious plans are thwarted, so he's made enemies. Hence the price on his head and Varis hunting him for it. He actually comes off more as a Robin Hood-type figure, instead trading booze and guns for medical supplies.

I'm not sure that argument tracks, to be honest.

Beverly and Jack Crusher are allegedly running their little Doctors Without Space-Borders operation at the behest of the Mariposa Medical Group.  I say "allegedly" because I doubt very much that a Federation medical aid organization like the Mariposas would condone the Crusher family's criminal activities.  The Mariposas benefit from the Federation's post-scarcity replicator economy.  They should not need to commit crimes to obtain the supplies they need.  A potential explanation for why they would need to commit crimes to get supplies would be that, well, the open warrants for their arrest make it difficult to go near Federation systems anymore.

Two problems with the flashback you're referring to:

1. The Romulan ale that Jack Crusher used to bribe the Fenris Rangers probably isn't illegal.  The Federation lifted the embargo on Romulan goods in 2375 (DS9: "Inter Enim Arma Silent Leges") and the USS Cerritos is transporting Romulan ale as goodwill gifts for the Karemma in 2381 (LD: "Hear All, Trust Nothing).  Sarnia's outside Federation space too, so even if the ban were reinstated (it probably hasn't been, given that the Romulan Free State is said to have better relations with the Federation that the Star Empire) it still wouldn't apply there.
    
2. Jack Crusher openly acknowledges that he is running guns to the warlords who spread the plague on that planet.  He uses a portion of that shipment of illegal weapons to bribe the Fenris Rangers to let him pass, but his brilliant plan - which he shares with them - was to supply arms to multiple warlords in the hopes of making the fighting worse and increasing the death toll!  He literally says his goal is to get more people killed because it's "bad guys killing bad guys".  

That's not a Robin Hood move... that's a complete monster move of a type normally reserved for the insane admiral du jour.  Specifically, Mark Jameson from TNG S1E16 "Too Short a Season".

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

IIRC, it was another doctor (Toby Russell), who was acting unethical and was trying to pioneer a risky surgery on Worf, not Dr. Crusher. It took Picard talking to Beverly to even get her to let Worf decide if he wanted the surgery or not.

(admittedly, been a while since I saw the episode, but that's what I recall).

It was Toby Russel who kills at least one person in the course of that episode by using them as test subjects for untrialed and unapproved treatments... and nearly gets Worf killed after convincing him to try a never-before-tested procedure to replace his entire spine.

But it was Dr. Crusher who flat-out refused to respect the culture and customs of her Klingon patient and openly dismissed them as barbarism.  It's Dr. Crusher they're lampooning there.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not sure that argument tracks, to be honest.

Beverly and Jack Crusher are allegedly running their little Doctors Without Space-Borders operation at the behest of the Mariposa Medical Group.  I say "allegedly" because I doubt very much that a Federation medical aid organization like the Mariposas would condone the Crusher family's criminal activities.  The Mariposas benefit from the Federation's post-scarcity replicator economy.  They should not need to commit crimes to obtain the supplies they need.  A potential explanation for why they would need to commit crimes to get supplies would be that, well, the open warrants for their arrest make it difficult to go near Federation systems anymore.

Two problems with the flashback you're referring to:

1. The Romulan ale that Jack Crusher used to bribe the Fenris Rangers probably isn't illegal.  The Federation lifted the embargo on Romulan goods in 2375 (DS9: "Inter Enim Arma Silent Leges") and the USS Cerritos is transporting Romulan ale as goodwill gifts for the Karemma in 2381 (LD: "Hear All, Trust Nothing).  Sarnia's outside Federation space too, so even if the ban were reinstated (it probably hasn't been, given that the Romulan Free State is said to have better relations with the Federation that the Star Empire) it still wouldn't apply there.
    
2. Jack Crusher openly acknowledges that he is running guns to the warlords who spread the plague on that planet.  He uses a portion of that shipment of illegal weapons to bribe the Fenris Rangers to let him pass, but his brilliant plan - which he shares with them - was to supply arms to multiple warlords in the hopes of making the fighting worse and increasing the death toll!  He literally says his goal is to get more people killed because it's "bad guys killing bad guys".  

That's not a Robin Hood move... that's a complete monster move of a type normally reserved for the insane admiral du jour.  Specifically, Mark Jameson from TNG S1E16 "Too Short a Season".

 

It was Toby Russel who kills at least one person in the course of that episode by using them as test subjects for untrialed and unapproved treatments... and nearly gets Worf killed after convincing him to try a never-before-tested procedure to replace his entire spine.

But it was Dr. Crusher who flat-out refused to respect the culture and customs of her Klingon patient and openly dismissed them as barbarism.  It's Dr. Crusher they're lampooning there.

Ah, thanks for the clarification! Was wondering about that.

[Thom]

49 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

...

1. The Romulan ale that Jack Crusher used to bribe the Fenris Rangers probably isn't illegal.  The Federation lifted the embargo on Romulan goods in 2375 (DS9: "Inter Enim Arma Silent Leges") and the USS Cerritos is transporting Romulan ale as goodwill gifts for the Karemma in 2381 (LD: "Hear All, Trust Nothing).  Sarnia's outside Federation space too, so even if the ban were reinstated (it probably hasn't been, given that the Romulan Free State is said to have better relations with the Federation that the Star Empire) it still wouldn't apply there.
    

Granted. I was unaware it was no longer illegal.

49 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

...

1. Jack Crusher openly acknowledges that he is running guns to the warlords who spread the plague on that planet.  He uses a portion of that shipment of illegal weapons to bribe the Fenris Rangers to let him pass, but his brilliant plan - which he shares with them - was to supply arms to multiple warlords in the hopes of making the fighting worse and increasing the death toll!  He literally says his goal is to get more people killed because it's "bad guys killing bad guys".  

That's not a Robin Hood move... that's a complete monster move of a type normally reserved for the insane admiral du jour.  Specifically, Mark Jameson from TNG S1E16 "Too Short a Season".

That if he's not just running a b.s. story for those Rangers. But even if he wasn't, he's delivering medical aid to the victims of the warlords - while helping those warlords kill each other off. Sounds like a 'win-win' situation.

[Dynaman]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

 

True, but if the audience's memory is better than the writer's it becomes a plot hole... one with significant Unfortunate Implications.

 

We watching the same Trek?  That happens umpteen times.  Time Travel, yea sure we can do that, but don't (till Enterprise in series terms and what a mess that was).  Steal Romulan Cloaking tech and don't use it?  Heck Yes.  Forget they had a shuttle (a few of them) for a season and then just add them in, heck yes (would have really helped Sulu in an earlier episode).  Etc...

[Seto Kaiba]

31 minutes ago, Thom said:

Dang triple post!

If they liked it once, they'll love it thrice!

 

27 minutes ago, Thom said:

Granted. I was unaware it was no longer illegal.

Which is understandable.  Goodness knows it was probably the single worst-enforced embargo in galactic history.  Lampshaded in the same DS9 episode where the ban's repeal was mentioned with Admiral Ross joking that the ban's enforcement was so poor that he was probably the only one in his class at the Academy who hadn't tried the stuff before they repealed the ban.

 

27 minutes ago, Thom said:

That if he's not just running a b.s. story for those Rangers. But even if he wasn't, he's delivering medical aid to the victims of the warlords - while helping those warlords kill each other off. Sounds like a 'win-win' situation.

What's the alternate explanation for a cargo hold full of illegal weapons then?  I can't imagine one that's less awful than what he's already proposing.

Mind you, he's supposed to be a doctor.  Part of the Hippocratic Oath is a vow to Do No Harm.  That this is part of the Hippocratic Oath even in Star Trek comes up in multiple past shows.  Selling arms to further a war is definitely, DEFINITELY a violation of "Do No Harm".  Mind you, the warlords warring is what created those refugees in the first place.  All he's doing by further arming the warlords is raising the body count, creating MORE refugees, and ensuring that whoever's left is exceptionally well-armed to come take out the refugees the hard way when someone wins and they return to the question of the refugees.

 

18 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

We watching the same Trek?  That happens umpteen times. 

Yes, we are.  These are things that are acknowledged and explained in-story.

 

18 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Time Travel, yea sure we can do that, but don't (till Enterprise in series terms and what a mess that was). 

Yes, they absolutely can do that.

Why don't they?  Because it's so stupidly dangerous that the Federation and other galactic powers banned it after several misadventures.  We get to see several of the Federation's in TOS and TAS.  There are also literal time cops from several different eras in future history who intervene to prevent alterations to the timeline.  Janeway had several run-ins with members of the 29th century Federation's Temporal Integrity Commission and Archer got a LOT of gray hair from his dealings with the 31st century Federation Temporal Agency.  Sisko got the business from his contemporary version, the Department of Temporal Investigations, after his unintended outing to the 23rd century.  

Apparently the Temporal Cold War was such a mess that the major galactic powers outright banned time travel even for benevolent and scientific purposes by the time of the 32nd century portions of Star Trek: Discovery.  That's why the Federation had to cover up the origins of the USS Discovery with a retrofit and new registry... it was an illegal time traveler.

 

18 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Steal Romulan Cloaking tech and don't use it?  Heck Yes. 

This one was less explicable initially.

Gene Roddenberry's position on the matter of cloaking devices was that sneaking about was unheroic, so the Federation simply didn't use cloaking devices even though they had captured several prior to the 24th century.  In-universe, this was later explained that the cloaking devices came with their own set of significant drawbacks that the Federation had decided just weren't worth it.  (For instance, being unable to use shields, weapons, active sensors, or higher warp speeds while cloaked.)  Later justification was added in TNG with the Treaty of Algeron, where the Federation agreed not to use or develop its own cloaking technology in exchange for a number of major concessions from the Romulans.

 

18 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Forget they had a shuttle (a few of them) for a season and then just add them in, heck yes (would have really helped Sulu in an earlier episode).  Etc...

I'm not sure which incident you're specifically referring to, but I'm sure there are probably explanations for it provided.

Prior to NuTrek, the staff were pretty good about closing plot holes of that nature.

[JB0]

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not sure which incident you're specifically referring to, but I'm sure there are probably explanations for it provided.

"Transporter splits Kirk into two people."

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, JB0 said:

"Transporter splits Kirk into two people."

Kosher shuttlecraft.  Can't be used to haul ham and ham products.

[JB0]

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kosher shuttlecraft.  Can't be used to haul ham and ham products.

Makes sense. No flaws in this reasoning.

[pengbuzz]

How I feel about now concerning Picard:

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Dynaman]

20 hours ago, JB0 said:

"Transporter splits Kirk into two people."

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kosher shuttlecraft.  Can't be used to haul ham and ham products.

No no, Kirk was the Transport problem.  

[Dobber]

Have to agree with @Seto Kaiba  again about Jack running guns. If there are victims of warlords, then giving the Warlords MORE weapons will only create more victims. It’s like saying we will solve gang violence by giving the gangs more guns…because we all know that no innocents and only other gang members are ever killed in gang violence. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

Good job Bev! Your reasoning and morality that you passed on to your son are clearly far superior to ours.🤦‍♂️

Chris

Edited March 7, 2023 by Dobber

[Thom]

23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If they liked it once, they'll love it thrice!

Thank you!

23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What's the alternate explanation for a cargo hold full of illegal weapons then?  I can't imagine one that's less awful than what he's already proposing.

Mind you, he's supposed to be a doctor.  Part of the Hippocratic Oath is a vow to Do No Harm.  That this is part of the Hippocratic Oath even in Star Trek comes up in multiple past shows.  Selling arms to further a war is definitely, DEFINITELY a violation of "Do No Harm".  Mind you, the warlords warring is what created those refugees in the first place.  All he's doing by further arming the warlords is raising the body count, creating MORE refugees, and ensuring that whoever's left is exceptionally well-armed to come take out the refugees the hard way when someone wins and they return to the question of the refugees....

I don't think he is a doctor. His mother is, and we didn't see her there in the flashback, but I think he is just smuggling the medical supplies, ale and weapons.

As for what's happening with the warlords and the refugees, I have no idea. There must be some restrictions, otherwise the warlords would simply have killed everyone off rather than having to resort to a sickness that would be hard to track back to them. The Rangers themselves may be holding them from killing off any innocents, or than they already have. Again, I don't know. I don't even think the writers know.🤪

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

No no, Kirk was the Transport problem.  

"Kirk was the problem."

Somewhere, there's a boardroom of Starfleet admirals nodding along.

 

20 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

How I feel about now concerning Picard:

Of all the scathing indictments of the series I've seen and read over the years, this one might be the closest I've seen to an honest-to-goodness sucker punch.  I felt that one.

"Other Me disgusts me" is 100% how a TNG-era Jean-Luc Picard would react to seeing this broken, self-obsessed relic that was once one of Starfleet's most principled officers.

 

8 minutes ago, Dobber said:

Have to agree with @Seto Kaiba  again about Jack running guns. If there are victims of warlords, then giving the Warlords MORE weapons will only create more victims. It’s like saying we will solve gang violence by giving the gangs more guns…because we all know that no innocents and only other gang members are ever killed in gang violence. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

Much like Michael Burnham repeated (or presaged) the murderous xenophobic paranoia of the USS Phoenix's Captain Benjamin Maxwell in TNG "The Wounded", Jack Crusher here in Star Trek: Picard's third and (mercifully) final season is repeating the sins of Admiral Mark Jameson, who traded weapons to one faction on Mordan IV to secure the release of the hostages they'd taken, and then armed the opposition too to "balance the books".  The end result of Jameson's gambit was 40 years of war that caused so much destruction that, once the dust settled, the Mordans tried to lure Jameson back so they could punish him for his crimes.

 

3 minutes ago, Thom said:

I don't think he is a doctor. His mother is, and we didn't see her there in the flashback, but I think he is just smuggling the medical supplies, ale and weapons.

Both he and Beverly do imply he's a trained medical practitioner at various points in "Seventeen Seconds".

How much of that training is formal and how much of it was him being Beverly's nurse is open to interpretation.

 

3 minutes ago, Thom said:

As for what's happening with the warlords and the refugees, I have no idea. There must be some restrictions, otherwise the warlords would simply have killed everyone off rather than having to resort to a sickness that would be hard to track back to them. The Rangers themselves may be holding them from killing off any innocents, or than they already have. Again, I don't know. I don't even think the writers know.🤪

I doubt the writers thought that far ahead... if they had, they'd realize they'd make Beverly a borderline sex offender and Jack an even scummier person than they were going for.

IMO, the likely explanation is that the various warlords probably don't have the resources to divert troops to exterminate refugees without compromising their front lines against other warlords.  Weaponized disease is a means of attack that doesn't require diverting any soldiers long-term.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Of all the scathing indictments of the series I've seen and read over the years, this one might be the closest I've seen to an honest-to-goodness sucker punch.  I felt that one.

"Other Me disgusts me" is 100% how a TNG-era Jean-Luc Picard would react to seeing this broken, self-obsessed relic that was once one of Starfleet's most principled officers.

Thank you sir! I take that as high praise, and will print my pic out with a copy of your comment here quoted, and shall have it framed!

 

[sh9000]

 

 

[JB0]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

"Kirk was the problem."

Somewhere, there's a boardroom of Starfleet admirals nodding along.

That's the name of the largest meeting room in the Department of Temporal Affairs.

[Thom]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I doubt the writers thought that far ahead... if they had, they'd realize they'd make Beverly a borderline sex offender...

Where does that come from?

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Thom said:

Where does that come from?

The unfortunate implications of how she got pregnant... which, from what we know of how contraception works in later Trek, would require either negligent or deliberate malpractice on her part. 

 

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

That's the name of the largest meeting room in the Department of Temporal Affairs.

The James T. Kirk Memorial Conference Room... so known for the large dartboard on the wall emblazoned with a portrait of the room's namesake.

[Thom]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The unfortunate implications of how she got pregnant... which, from what we know of how contraception works in later Trek, would require either negligent or deliberate malpractice on her part.

And that, I think is inferring way too much. You're now accusing the character of purposefully getting pregnant without having any evidence but conjecture about a show you yourself have pointed out has a story that can't really support its own weight, Unless the character herself says so, all we have is the poor plot to go on, and to blame.

And no, purposefully getting pregnant is not sexual assault. Shitty, yes, but not sexual assault.

[Dobber]

Gotta agree with Thom here. As much as I dislike Bev now, I wouldn’t go as far as calling her a boarder-line sex offender. A shitty person yes with a lame plot/justification definitely 😉

Chris

[Roy Focker]

Please drop this line of thought.

[pengbuzz]

On another note: does anyone think it's going to come up that Picard's an android in this season (as in "wait, how can we trust anything he says when it's not the real Jean-Luc Picard")?

Think about it for a moment: Riker just threw Picard off the bridge because Picard's approach ended up with them adrift in space and in mortal peril. I don't think it would take too much from a tricorder to reveal that "Picard" isn't exactly human. That I think would not only raise questions in Riker and Crusher's minds, but give Captain Shaw all the reason and impetus he needs to confine Picard to the brig.

Thoughts?

[Thom]

What was the whole point of making him an android anyway!? One of the goofiest things.

[JB0]

29 minutes ago, Thom said:

What was the whole point of making him an android anyway!? One of the goofiest things.

"We wrote him as dead at end of season, but now we're making a second season! Quick, find a fix!"

[sh9000]

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

"No-Win Scenario"... an apt description of the viewing experience.

"There is a saboteur on this ship." "Keep it quiet."... he has a name, guys.  Sir Patrick Stewart.  He's been sabotaging this series from the moment he signed on.

"Things are about to get a lot worse."... thanks for predicting the remainder of the show's run, Bev!

"Dead in the water"... an apt description of the series, and really this entire hot take on Star Trek now that both this and Discovery are cancelled.

"Noone's coming to rescue us, Will."... now that's hardly fair, Sir Patrick.  Sonequa Martin-Green has been working hard to rescue you from your plummet to worst-rated Star Trek series of all time, admittedly by diving on that grenade herself.

[Thom]

Just bought one of these bad little jammies! Can't wait to get it!

https://hornershipyards.com/?fbclid=IwAR1XCM6KTrUB3UhN33rmVr-l19EJk-Zd7RfX03xqcBkXKI0J1THqcS7fQ8Y

[Dobber]

9 hours ago, Thom said:

Just bought one of these bad little jammies! Can't wait to get it!

https://hornershipyards.com/?fbclid=IwAR1XCM6KTrUB3UhN33rmVr-l19EJk-Zd7RfX03xqcBkXKI0J1THqcS7fQ8Y

Nice! Thanks for the heads up. Never heard of that site. Are they reputable?

Chris

[Thom]

1 hour ago, Dobber said:

Nice! Thanks for the heads up. Never heard of that site. Are they reputable?

Chris

I'll let you know when mine shows up!😆 But his site on the Face shows a lot of build pics of the model and multiple parts, both printed and printing.

https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=horner shipyards

[Dobber]

I’m going to order one too. Just waiting for him to respond as I want a different ship name and registry. Going to slightly modify mine.

Chris

[valkyrie_cadman]

Where do we go to petition so that we can get a series with Todd Stashwick as Captain Shaw with the Titan the same way that Anson Mount got his own show as Captain Pike in "Strange New Worlds"...?????