MΔ - VF-9

[dizman]

It already looks great for a 1st run prototype and I'm sure any changes you make will make it look even better! 

[Chronocidal]

Agreed, even if you just fix the little things you mentioned earlier, it's a huge accomplishment.  

So, I think if you are planning to tweak the entire design, I'd still only go with a few specific tweaks.  Here's an example of what I was thinking of earlier.

What I've done here is scale down the nose section a little, and move it slightly farther forward, while extending the trailing edge of the wing a little, all the way to the legs.  I think the nose section can stay the same size, but the rest of the aircraft looks better if it gets bigger in proportion.  The scaling on the cockpit looks great already, so I would hate to mess with that.  I think that helps the overall proportions a great deal though, and makes it look sleeker overall.

Unfortunately, without making a full model with these changes, I have no idea how this would affect the transformation.  The nose looks like it could move around a little without too much trouble, but all the connections in battroid mode may take adjusting to work.

The other tweak I think I would make would be to reduce the length of the lower intake lips.  They don't look bad, but it might increase the range of motion in the legs if the lips didn't jut forward so far.

[arbit]

Hey Xigfrid.

I would be interested to see a video to illustrate at this stage what is and what is not working in different modes.

Looks like you will need more adjustments and reprints. It sucks to have to spend more, but I guess you cant really expect such a complex model to come together with the first prototype.

[Xigfrid]

@Chronocidal I totally agree with your mods, and that’s what I had in mind for the wings.

However, I need to double check about the nose. I can’t size down the nose (because the head would be too small) but I think that it was supposed to go deeper inside the “fuselage” and reducing its perceptual size. Anyway I can try to change it that way. 

Anyway great inputs there, I will take them into account. 

@arbit I don’t think I can make a video in English, or if I try, you will hardly understand anything due to my accent !

My main grip about my design is that the VF-9 looks too damn tiny. I was shocked by the legs size and in particular the air intakes and thighs parts. I mean that my model looks very similar to what the line art shows in battroid but something seems off, and it may comes from me I need to double check too if I don’t have a scaling factor just before exporting for the printer... that would explain a lot of things...

Apart from that a few things are too thin, and then would flex too easily giving a “cheap” feeling. 

My objective now is to simplify a lot the transformation and to make larger, solid parts. 

[Chronocidal]

10 minutes ago, Xigfrid said:

@Chronocidal I totally agree with your mods, and that’s what I had in mind for the wings.

However, I need to double check about the nose. I can’t size down the nose (because the head would be too small) but I think that it was supposed to go deeper inside the “fuselage” and reducing its perceptual size. Anyway I can try to change it that way. 

Anyway great inputs there, I will take them into account. 

@arbit I don’t think I can make a video in English, or if I try, you will hardly understand anything due to my accent !

My main grip about my design is that the VF-9 looks too damn tiny. I was shocked by the legs size and in particular the air intakes and thighs parts. I mean that my model looks very similar to what the line art shows in battroid but something seems off, and it may comes from me I need to double check too if I don’t have a scaling factor just before exporting for the printer... that would explain a lot of things...

Apart from that a few things are too thin, and then would flex too easily giving a “cheap” feeling. 

My objective now is to simplify a lot the transformation and to make larger, solid parts. 

Agreed on the cockpit size, and it's not so much that the cockpit needs to be smaller, so much as the rest of the plane looks like it needs to be bigger.  Sadly, that would increase the materials and price overall, and possibly make it out of the official scale, but maybe just stretching the cockpit forward some would have the same overall effect.  You might even be able to shrink the forward nose a bit while keeping the section with the head the same size.

One other thing to consider, have you thought about extending the tail-flap that protrudes between the engines?  I'm not sure where that piece would wind up in battroid, and it may need to be attached to the large connecting bar for the shoulders, but it's a fairly prominent feature on the design, if you have room to work it in.  

Just FYI, the only reference I have for the VF-9 is the little 1/200 scale Yamato miniature from years back, so the proportions there are probably not great for a transforming version.

[Xigfrid]

Not sure what you mean about the thing between the engine, but perhaps if the legs go 1cm longer as I plan to do, it will look better don’t you think?

[valhary]

First I wanna say the scale is correct 

many people sometimes forget The different valks vary in size

I only have 3 suggestions: the nose cone, the arm connector and the head visor for the rest is perfect

[Chronocidal]

So, one thing that might help the shoulder joints sticking out is if the wings are made bigger/longer.  The larger those folding panels get, the less of the shoulder mechanism you'll see.

As a side note though, I realized something about the design.. if the left wing is supposed to fold up to place the UN logo on the left breastplate... the logo has to be printed backwards on the underside of the wing.  

Also, as far as that F-14/VF-1-ish boat-tail/flap between the legs, I realized that that panel should actually be part of the shoulder mount for the left arm, and the panel visible from above in fighter mode should fold down to form the armpit.  It should just be a cosmetic change to the that piece, but it also might mean you can't make the panels on both sides identical, so it's a trade-off between detail and simplicity.

In terms of the nose length in battroid though, I just realized that the original design doesn't extend the nose at all, while I think this one pops the nose cone forward to make a latching mechanism for the wingtips.  As an alternative to the pegs on the wingtips and the extending nosecone, what if you actually placed fold out tabs on the nosecone that the wingtips would hook onto?  Or possibly even more magnets?

Edit: One other little observation, when comparing with the line-art.  In gerwalk mode, the drawings show the shoulders sitting under the wings, while the prototype print has the entire crossbar that connects the arms sitting behind them.  It all works out for fighter and battroid, but that makes me think that maybe the pivot point for the shoulders is a little too far back, meaning the entire valk may be a bit to short, proportionally.

I'm not sure how to fix that sort of thing exactly, at least not without significantly re-scaling most of the components.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Chronocidal

[Pulltoeject]

Hey Xigfrid, first of all awesome job and balls to tackle such a complex valk ! To my eyes it looks great but, maybe if You scaled it up a bit to make it at least the size of a 1/60 vf-1 that might give You more room to work on fine-tuning. I know many here would prefer a "correctly scaled" vf-9 but, as long as it doesn't end up as large as an sv-51, that minor size-up wouldn't seem too off. Just my 2 cents, keep it up & bravo !

[Xigfrid]

@valhary thanks for all the pictures, it really helps, preventing me erasing the model files  

As @Chronocidal noticed, my model moves forward the nose to open a latch that helps holding the wings in place for battroid. I think it also looks better with a forward oriented pelvis. And because of that I can easily make the nose thinner without changing too much the battroid look

[mechaninac]

On 6/15/2018 at 5:35 AM, Xigfrid said:

Any suggestions?

Forego 1/60 and go for 1/48 instead?...

 

Seriously though, most issues related to the extremely small size of the subject would be greatly reduced, if not completely resolved, with a scale increase, without any compromises in proportions or loss of fine surface details.

[Pulltoeject]

Hey Xigfrid, could You take a pic of the vf-9 beside a vf-19, both in fighter mode for size comparison?  Maybe scaling it up to a vf-19's size might look pretty good....

[Tage]

Xigfrid, honestly this is so so good though. 

I remember comparing the newer 1/60 VF-1 toys when i got them right next to the YF-19 (my fave) and thinking the VF-1 was so small. Then with the first round of the VF-5000 print comparing to the VF-1 and thinking, 'Oh no this is so so small' But honestly I think your scale is spot on. Plus your other models have been larger even as a 1/60 scale. Don't fret!

The only few finesse things i can see/think of would be... (that i'm sure you're aware of and have been mentioned all ready really):

Nose - yeah if there is a way to make it smaller/skinnier that would be amazing. But understand you have a lot of inner working stuff going on. So maybe it's even just the shape that could change slightly... just a bit more thinner under the cockpit area. Also, and if you could find a compromise for the size of the end of the nose so it's a would appear a bit smaller in robot mode that would be great.  

Shoulders - Not too sure how the join to the body works and how much space you have to play... But one way to reduce the gap could be turning it into a sliding and lock mechanism on that top bar so the shoulder screw is actually closer to the body? I don't know maybe there is an easier way as you've already mentioned everything is so fiddly. As someone else mentioned maybe it's making the wings bigger to cover it up... I feel like just making the shoulder joint closer to the body will just help.

Top Air intakes - By top air intakes i'm talking about that whole tail fin section. I think in robot mode the need to protrude up a little more. It's such a loverly detail that comes with most VF's that normally from their 'backpack' part. You gotta show them off. Also is there a way you could get rid of the plastic pin in that part? Is it for stability in Plane mode? Just wondering if there is another way to keep things together while flattening out that area. 

Legs - If they could go a bit bulkier, that may match the artwork a little more. But that really is a personal aesthetic thing at this stage. I just prefer the bulkier valk styles like the YF-19 compared to the VF-25 or even the VF-31. But i do feel compared to the bulk of the arms, the legs feel a little skinnier comparatively. 

Heat shield - Honestly don't know the best way to fix this as it would probably impact the wing size too much... but if you could think of a way to add just a bit more height to the heat shield area just so it can be a bit more in line with that next 'module' of the canopy.

Want a better word that 'module' Hopefully the pic below helps a bit more with explaining most of the above. 

But honestly man, it's great! With the feedback, you'd know what you want to do with it really. And honestly i'd pick this up in a heartbeat as is! Any improvement from here is pure polish! 

Chat soon man.

[Xigfrid]

@Tage thanks for the kind comments. I agree with most comments. 

There was something that I didn’t want is to modify the canopy, but I have to admit it can be less protruding then making easier the cover with the wing in battroid. The nose is a part that can be modified easily compared to the rest of the fighter, because it has a lot of empty space. 

Btw, i understand the arm looks too far away from the body, but this is because there is a wing portion missing there. It should come in a few days, and I will assemble it and take a few more pictures. 

@Pulltoeject, the Vf-9 will be scandeously small compared to a Yf-19. And printing a VF-9 the size of a YF-19 would cost three times the actual price!

[Urashiman]

Awesome work Xigfrid! Congratulations!

[Xigfrid]

Here is the preliminary fixes:

1) Legs and Top intake (that become the Backpack) were greatly enlarged
2) clear canopy height reduced and it starts lower in the nose.
3) new nose profile. I largely preferred the nose to be longer in fact... I don't understand why it was proposed to be shorter
4) wing span and size even more greatly enlarged

In red the new version

[Xigfrid]

I am still amazed how much the printed prototype nose looks different compared to its 3D model once printed. 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Xigfrid

[electric indigo]

The new nose lineart looks much better already!

Do you think it would be possible to have a larger chamfer on the lower arms to make them appear less blocky? 

[Urashiman]

2 hours ago, Xigfrid said:

I am still amazed how much the printed prototype nose looks different compared to its 3D model once printed. 

 

Yeah, this is due to the orthographic view in sketchup and the perspective view in real life. Also keep in mind that 3D printing also has errors. It often isn't as acurate as though giving you printing errors of up to 1mm per 10cm, especially with the cheap materials. For prototyping the white and elastic stuff is okay, but if you want a final build, you should choose the more expensive materials.

Nevertheless, great work Xigfrid!

[valhary]

impressive with this little adjustments looks even better

[Chronocidal]

Loving the tweaks, they really streamlined the design I think!  The new profile looks a lot sleeker, and I like how the changes to the legs looks to have shifted the shoulder mount forward.  The shorter intake lips look really good too.

One thing that looks slightly off to me currently is that the wings look like they're slightly too far forward.  The shape and size look great, but my balance/stability senses are tingling, since it looks like the center of lift is a little too far forward.

Not sure if it would cause any serious changes to the wing folding alignment (for good or bad), but here's what I'm imagining.  The rounded wing mounts on the sides of the legs would need to move toward the feet slightly, and the leading edge could be blended a bit more at the wing root, but the mounting hinges for the wings wouldn't need to change.

Don't think it's absolutely necessary, and it might change the way the wings line up for battroid mode, but moving the wings further back may also help gerwalk mode by letting the arms sit further forward under the wings.

Whatever you decide, looking great!  I think the little extension in length is well worth the change in profile, while still looking not too big for 1/60 scale.

[Xigfrid]

15 hours ago, electric indigo said:

Do you think it would be possible to have a larger chamfer on the lower arms to make them appear less blocky? 

That's a great idea, I remember I did it really small because of a pin insertion, but I can work around and see if there is another way to insert the hand pin

15 hours ago, Urashiman said:

But if you want a final build, you should choose the more expensive materials.

Nevertheless, great work Xigfrid!

I don't really see any alternative for a working toys, at least with Shapeways materials none would work better, except HP plastic but the improvments doesn't worth the price Shapeways ask for it. Let me know what you are thinking of please.

15 hours ago, valhary said:

impressive with this little adjustments looks even better

Hey thanks for the comment, I hope this version will be final !

14 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

One thing that looks slightly off to me currently is that the wings look like they're slightly too far forward.  The shape and size look great, but my balance/stability senses are tingling, since it looks like the center of lift is a little too far forward.

[...]

Whatever you decide, looking great!  I think the little extension in length is well worth the change in profile, while still looking not too big for 1/60 scale.

Thanks for spending so much time on my design, and you got a sharp eye! In fact I have moved the wings forward because the line art have them much more forward than that. I will trust your vision/feeling of the lift, and guess what? The new position that you are proposing is even better for the battroid mode, so I will adopt it in an heartbeat.

[Chronocidal]

8 hours ago, Xigfrid said:

Thanks for spending so much time on my design, and you got a sharp eye! In fact I have moved the wings forward because the line art have them much more forward than that. I will trust your vision/feeling of the lift, and guess what? The new position that you are proposing is even better for the battroid mode, so I will adopt it in an heartbeat.

Not a problem, I love this design process!  I'm glad the wing works better that way for battroid as well, that's just a convenient change then.   I think what I noticed about the further forward wing position was that the leading edge line was so far ahead of the pods on the back.. I don't really know what to call them.  All of the VF-9 images I can find seem like the center of that upper intake/nozzle/thing is centered on the line along the leading edge.  Plus, I think the wing being farther back just makes the plane look faster.  

Keep up the amazing work, this will be one heck of a project to put together when it's ready to order!

[wmkjr]

Xigfrid, does the H flap (the green part) pivot both ways? The reason I ask is the transformation to gerwalk shows that section flipping down with the main bar's notch pointing backwards. That allows the shoulders to fit closer to the wings. The problem is you'd have to somehow put a pivot in the bar to allow the shoulders to rotate around to face the right way.
test

PShopped a trimmed down front just for the heck of it:

Spoiler

Also looking forward to the finalized version!

Edited June 19, 2018 by wmkjr

[Xigfrid]

@wmkjr great catch about the “double pivot” of the shoulder bar. My model only fold upward for battroid. Unfortunately there is an ambiguous situation there for the gerwalk mode because if you double fold the bar, the bar should face the other side. 

See my gerwalk bottom view, the bar is oriented in the correct direction? But without the double folding. I can make the double folding to push forward the hands, I just don’t know yet how solid this articulation will end. And thanks for the tip!

 

[Xigfrid]

And the canopy details, I wish FUD was more solid and print all the VF-9 like that!

[Jasonc]

Geez, I want this terribly. If all goes well, it'll be an easy purchase when the new 2.0 version is examined.

[Chronocidal]

Hmmm, that shoulder bar mechanism is making my brain do calisthenics thinking how it's supposed to function.  Given the location, I'm not sure it's supposed to actually flip over, or if the line art just shows it flipping up to rotate the shoulders out, before flipping back down.

[sketchley]

58 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Hmmm, that shoulder bar mechanism is making my brain do calisthenics thinking how it's supposed to function.  Given the location, I'm not sure it's supposed to actually flip over, or if the line art just shows it flipping up to rotate the shoulders out, before flipping back down.

I agree.  I can't figure it out from just the line art!

However, it's probably very simple.  The design was originally meant to be a toy or something like that, so it shouldn't be too complicated (keeping in mind that it's a late 80's or early 90's toy technology).

[Xigfrid]

That’s simple it is impossible:

1) you can double fold the shoulder bar and have the shoulder bar facing backward

2) you can single fold the bar, rotate it 180’ then fold it one step again as suggest by @wmkjr. The bar would face the same way as the line art, but you would have the left hand at the right. And you know the left and right hands can’t be inversed

[Chronocidal]

Or, I can see it working one more way.. but it would require two more pivots along the length of the shoulder bar.  They could really be anywhere along the length, and just serve to rotate the arms into the right position again after flipping the shoulder bar underneath the wings.

I don't really see any real way to make that work well with this model though, since it'd just be a very weak rotation joint with nothing to support it.

 

[Urashiman]

On 19.6.2018 at 11:47 AM, Xigfrid said:

I don't really see any alternative for a working toys, at least with Shapeways materials none would work better, except HP plastic but the improvments doesn't worth the price Shapeways ask for it. Let me know what you are thinking of please.

Yeah on second thought you are right - FUD is way too brittle for that

[Xigfrid]

I have been busy with life and work lately so I could progress slowly on this VF9.

1) I have prioritized the fighter sleekness and firmness. A simpler nose transformation but with less "holes" and I have added a lot hidden tabs. I am pretty happy so far with the fighter mode.
2) The battroid mode have bigger legs and the battroid height is about the same as before because the hips have been raised to compensate the changes. I have reviewed a lot of smaller details, making the battroid look larger, thickier.
3) With the prototype, I could have a better idea on how to fix the flaws with the gerwalk mode, I have tried to fix all of them, and I also 'succeeded' to make the accurate arms position and moving them under the wings. I just hope it will works as intended because the changes involved were pretty big.

 

[valhary]

I'm ready!!!!!!

[Mommar]

Xigfrid is a certified bad-ass.