Avengers: Endgame

[no3Ljm]

I read some of the articles from TheWrap.com, and it helped me understand some points regarding the ‘method’ they used to fix the problem.

 

[Keith]

7 hours ago, chyll2 said:

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As explained by the Ancient one, if you remove the stone from a universe, it has an adverse effect or it will be put into danger.

 

What would happen to the current universe wherein all of the stones are gone

Phase 5? ;)

[Gunbuster]

 

Tony left them the ultimate weapon, more powerful than the stones. A working time machine with a time GPS!! So anytime the avenger messed, they can just use it to reset set their mistakes. 

Heck, following their logic, if they want to be selfish, they could go back a couple days and pull Tony and Black widow into their timeline and let the other timeline/other alt universe get destroy...

Edited April 29, 2019 by Gunbuster

[Mommar]

8 hours ago, chyll2 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

As explained by the Ancient one, if you remove the stone from a universe, it has an adverse effect or it will be put into danger.

 

What would happen to the current universe wherein all of the stones are gone

Spoiler

It's not the removal of the "stones" that's the problem.  It's the removal of a key object that's the problem.  The time stone was specifically handed down to Doctor Strange who used it to defeat Dormammu.  If the stone disappeared that would create a split in the timeline where Strange couldn't prevent that from happening.  The same issue would result if Mjolnir weren't put back, a different timeline where Thor couldn't fight Malekith would have resulted.  The Stones were a key to the splitting timelines but they're not THE key to timelines splitting.

 

[no3Ljm]

Spoiler

Can anyone shed some light on how powerful Stark's NanoTech is compared to Nidavellir's metal to create the Gauntlet for it to hold the power of the Infinity Stones?

 

[no3Ljm]

Some insightful articles. One from the screenwriters itself. Spoilers beware.

Spoiler

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/movies/avengers-endgame-explainer.html

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/04/230784/how-does-iron-man-snap-thanos-army-end-of-avengers-endgame

 

[kalvasflam]

4 hours ago, Mommar said:

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It's not the removal of the "stones" that's the problem.  It's the removal of a key object that's the problem.  The time stone was specifically handed down to Doctor Strange who used it to defeat Dormammu.  If the stone disappeared that would create a split in the timeline where Strange couldn't prevent that from happening.  The same issue would result if Mjolnir weren't put back, a different timeline where Thor couldn't fight Malekith would have resulted.  The Stones were a key to the splitting timelines but they're not THE key to timelines splitting.

 

Amen, that says it perfectly.

The Avengers thought of what they needed to do to patch the timeline, it would've been perfect except Thanos showed up.  Once that happened, and they eliminated him, as well as other effects, the timeline was irrevocably broken.  At which point, Cap said, screw it, I'm going to go back in time and hang out with my long term booty call.  It's a whole new world now.

My guess is that the Avengers probably didn't fix everything, because how does the Earth go from 3.5 billion people to 7 billion people instantly without a whole load of problems, even if you fixed everything material.  Imagine if the president got snapped away, then he came back, is he still the president?

[\spoiler]

[Mazinger]

Spoiler

Curious what you guys thought of Doctor Strange's number one gesture.

I'm still not sure if he was saying - you just need to remove 1 stone or more like, Spock told Kirk, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

 

[Knight26]

7 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

Amen, that says it perfectly.

 

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The Avengers thought of what they needed to do to patch the timeline, it would've been perfect except Thanos showed up.  Once that happened, and they eliminated him, as well as other effects, the timeline was irrevocably broken.  At which point, Cap said, screw it, I'm going to go back in time and hang out with my long term booty call.  It's a whole new world now.

My guess is that the Avengers probably didn't fix everything, because how does the Earth go from 3.5 billion people to 7 billion people instantly without a whole load of problems, even if you fixed everything material.  Imagine if the president got snapped away, then he came back, is he still the president?

[\spoiler]

Spoiler

While your second point is valid, there will be loads of problems that come about with everyone coming back, your first if off the mark.

Yes, Thanos showing up alters the timeline, except when Cap returns the stones to their rightful places in time, it would undo Thanos coming forwards.  Time travel is really messy.  But, the Thanos that comes forwards in time belongs to a divergent timeline from the prime timeline.  The prime timeline was restored the instant Cap returned the Power Stone to it's place in the timeline, negating the actions that occurred before that.  Again, it is complicated, I know.  That is why I really don't like most time travel stories, it can really mess things up from a story perspective.

ALso, Peggy was never Cap's "Booty Call."  She was the love of his life, and after Cap fulfilled his final mission, returning the stones and Moljnir to their proper points in time he finally earned his reward, life and love with Peggy.  Cap finally got his happy ending, like Tony did earlier in the movie before his sacrifice.

My question, when did Cap slide back forwards?  After Peggy died or when he was defrosted?  We will probably never know for certain.

 

[Knight26]

 

3 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

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Curious what you guys thought of Doctor Strange's number one gesture.

I'm still not sure if he was saying - you just need to remove 1 stone or more like, Spock told Kirk, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

 

Spoiler

He was telling him this was the one timeline, and Tony realized what he had to do.  He was probably thinking what to do when he saw the gesture.

 

[no3Ljm]

24 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

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Curious what you guys thought of Doctor Strange's number one gesture.

I'm still not sure if he was saying - you just need to remove 1 stone or more like, Spock told Kirk, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

 

Spoiler

That's the 'One' possibility he told Tony Stary way back in Infinity War. But during that number one gesture in Endgame, he implied to Tony that if he told him what happens, it won't happen. Basically sacrificing himself.

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by no3Ljm

[peter]

On 4/25/2019 at 1:49 PM, TangledThorns said:

Was there an intermission? If not, I'm gonna have to wait till it comes to Disney+ or VOD, ugh. 

Two words....adult diapers.

[Knight26]

My eight year made it through no problems.

[Dangard Ace]

Fake or not I don't find myself feeling sympathy for guys that talk about spoilers in front of people.  Go old guy!

https://www.asiaone.com/asia/man-hong-kong-reportedly-beaten-outside-cinema-leaking-avengers-endgame-spoilers

[peter]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:10 PM, renegadeleader1 said:

This movie had its moments, but it felt way too much like a muddled mess for my taste. Especially how everything got resolved.

Anyways, my question...

 

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How the **** do you "put back" the soul stone? Unsacrifice someone? Also how do you think Cap is going to react to landing on the planet and finding out the guardian of the stone is the Red Skull?

 

Spoiler

Another question is, once someone comes and takes the soul stone, what does Red Skull do after that for all eternity?  Does he have another line o employment he can fall back on?

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by peter

[Thom]

22 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

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My take is that they ended up creating an alternate timeline by doing what they did. 

The reasoning is simple.  2014 Nebula died, so she isn't around to become good Nebula, and then be available to kill herself or to screw things up later.  That right there is a paradox. 

Then there is Gamora, 2014 Gamora stuck around in the future, so, technically, she isn't there in the past.  Marvel was smart not to really talk about this whole Pandora's box.

Finally, there is Thanos himself, because if 2014 Thanos kicked the bucket, he isn't going to be around to snap his fingers in 2018 and disappear half the universe.  Now, you can explain away Thanos by saying he and the rest got back to 2014 because of Stark. 

But if Gamora 2014 sticks around, you can't physically make GoG work without Gamora because she ends up being somewhat critical in 2014.  Same concept in general with Nebula.  I guess we'll see how this universe shapes up.  One of these days, they are going to make an MCU recap movie, the sole purpose of which is to recap everything since 2008, and sets up for the next arc. 

I suggest they do that one in 2023, 15th anniversary of the MCU.  Then make it a downloadable on Disney+. 

Spoiler

 

I'm going with it is all happening in the same universe that is filled with infinite possibilities. The GotG gang with remember their Gamora and all they did with her, while 2014 Gamora will only remember jumping forward in time, and yet her jump forward will not effect the past because she is an alternate version from the same universe.

I'm thinking the same with Thanos. He jumped forward in time and was dusted in the future, but they all still remember Infinity War happening, meaning that is did happen even if he was shifted around in time. Their past is still their past and everything just keeps forward towards the future no matter where you stand in the time-stream.

As for there being two Steve Rogers, did we ever get the name of Peggy's husband? I can only think of poor old Steve standing in the back of his own wife's funeral while young Steve is carrying her casket on his shoulder...

 

As for potty breaks, there weren't any in my theater. But then, I didn't drink anything three hours before showtime and had nothing at the theater, and walked out not having to go to the bathroom at all. A first!

A head-scratcher for me is...

Spoiler

...how did they get the tesseract back from Loki after he escaped with it.  Which also means that, like Gamora, he is no longer dead...

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Thom

[sh9000]

 

[Dobber]

Someone help me out here....

How is Gamora still alive? Or more precisely how can she be allowed to live? If the stones needed to go back and Thor’s Hammer needed to be returned from the time it was taken so that past Thor has it during his time and things unfold as they should. The shouldn’t Gamora also be returned to her original place in time? She is needed to help unfold everything that the Guardians did. Removing her would screw up everything wouldn’t it? Similar to how Cap couldn’t interfere in the past, even knowing what was going to happen over the next 70+ years, because he knows how it will turn out in the end, so he just can’t mess with it. Though go back to Carter surely changes things too but what can you do.

Chris

[seti88]

Spoiler

If you think of events like a separate multiverse that may help explain the timeline. Gamora was brought back from the past multiverse and exists in the present multiverse. When cap returns the stones, all other multiverses are either disconnected or erased.

Thats as far as I can go in order to explain things. Again i dislike time travel shenanigans as its so convenient to resolve something that took so long to build up.

 

[Dobber]

1 hour ago, seti88 said:

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If you think of events like a separate multiverse that may help explain the timeline. Gamora was brought back from the past multiverse and exists in the present multiverse. When cap returns the stones, all other multiverses are either disconnected or erased.

Thats as far as I can go in order to explain things. Again i dislike time travel shenanigans as its so convenient to resolve something that took so long to build up.

 

so then why not go grab Black Widow just before she sacrifices her self or just before the time travel mission. That way you have pretty much the exact BW that you lost? It’s like they are having it both ways. It matters and then it doesn’t

[seti88]

Spoiler

Yup, plot holes a plenty if you wanna go down that path...maybe they did do what you said, and perhaps why the BW movie might still come to fruition...

 

[Keith]

3 hours ago, Dobber said:

Someone help me out here....

 

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How is Gamora still alive? Or more precisely how can she be allowed to live? If the stones needed to go back and Thor’s Hammer needed to be returned from the time it was taken so that past Thor has it during his time and things unfold as they should. The shouldn’t Gamora also be returned to her original place in time? She is needed to help unfold everything that the Guardians did. Removing her would screw up everything wouldn’t it? Similar to how Cap couldn’t interfere in the past, even knowing what was going to happen over the next 70+ years, because he knows how it will turn out in the end, so he just can’t mess with it. Though go back to Carter surely changes things too but what can you do.

 

Chris

Did you see her after Tony's snap? If she was still in the present, she'd need a ride back to space. I didn't see her with The Guardians, and can't imagine she'd hang around Earth.

Still think Tony sent her back in time with Thanos & crew.

[ArchieNov]

I guess I'll be the odd man out and say that the movie was more disappointing than rewarding for me. I give it a 6/10. Infinity War was a much better film.

While there's a bunch of great moments, it also has a lot of flaws that anyone with critical thinking or common sense would be bothered with.

I wish they took more time to think the plot more thoroughly.

[Dobber]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

 

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Did you see her after Tony's snap? If she was still in the present, she'd need a ride back to space. I didn't see her with The Guardians, and can't imagine she'd hang around Earth.

Still think Tony sent her back in time with Thanos & crew.

 

That WOULD make the most sense. Hopefully, that is what happened. Though that leads me to my next question...

 

some have postulated that as the movie said “nothing you do in the past has any effect on your future except when it concerns the stones” then Gamora and theoretically BW could be brought back....but then why did Thor’s hammer need to be returned? They could’ve kept it. If that postulation is incorrect, and the Hammer needed to be returned so Thor would have it in the events we’ve seen....then Gamora needs to be returned as well. Like what was said above Gamora needs to stay gone......but then Thanos and crew are also removed so all they did didn’t happen except in an alternate timeline/dimension so then why can’t Gamora, the Hammer, and theoretical BW be allowed to remain because everything else only effects an alternate timeline/universe. My head hurts...it SEEMS like they are trying to have it both ways. My head hurts 

IF it is the multiverse concept they use, an interesting idea would be those OTHER Avengers coming to our Universe with a bone to pick with our Avengers....since our group took what they wanted from those other universes...making our group the bad guys because they took what they wanted with little regard to how it effected those others.

Chris

Edited April 30, 2019 by Dobber

[Kelsain]

1 hour ago, Dobber said:

 

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so then why not go grab Black Widow just before she sacrifices her self or just before the time travel mission. That way you have pretty much the exact BW that you lost? It’s like they are having it both ways. It matters and then it doesn’t

 

As I understood it:

Spoiler

Returning the Infinity stones and Mjolnir was not really about correcting the timeline. Per the Ancient One, as the Avengers went back in time they created additional realities with each slight change. Returning the stones was to protect the stability of the alternate realities, but would not erase them.

Loki escaped NY with the Tesseract, & Cap was left mind controlled in the altered 2012. Howard Stark was given new confidence & Hank Pym suffered a decent research setback in altered 1970. The Asguardians are already on alert and Jane Foster possibly traumatized by the presence of a dangerous alien rabbit in their midst in altered 2013. In altered 2014, Starlord was foiled in getting the power stone, while Nebula, Gamora, Thanos & his whole army were transported into the main reality. This means that Quill wouldn't encounter Gamora, Rocket & Groot on Xandar. The Guardians might never form in that reality. OTOH, Thanos and his army are no longer players in that reality and Ronan wasn't aware that he was hunting an Infinity Stone until after the battle at Knowhere.

I don't think Iron Man sent Thanos & crew back in time, but erased them from existence in the same way Thanos did in IW. If he did, it would create another reality where Thanos had learned of his mistakes, and aim to destroy all life in that one. 

So Cap has to go back to those points and put the stones back, not to make sure that everything unfolds the same way, but to make sure that they are present in the alternate reality to keep it stable and preserve the lives of those who live in it. I'm sure there would be a new plot about chasing down Loki - would he go back to Thanos, or run away? Would Howard be a better Dad, or Hank's research be adversely affected? Would Ronan ever figure out the power stone, would the Guardians team up? Who can say, the details don't matter, just that the stones are present.

It's feels more Doctor Who than Back to the Future to me. Less about preserving the integrity of events, and more about doing some good in the moment and maybe making things better for the future. (except for the "fixed point in time" caveat that they added in for certain subjects)

Still trying to work out Steve, though.

 

[505thAirborne]

18 hours ago, Dangard Ace said:

Fake or not I don't find myself feeling sympathy for guys that talk about spoilers in front of people.  Go old guy!

https://www.asiaone.com/asia/man-hong-kong-reportedly-beaten-outside-cinema-leaking-avengers-endgame-spoilers

So basically he did this 

 

[Knight26]

11 minutes ago, Kelsain said:

As I understood it:

  Hide contents

Returning the Infinity stones and Mjolnir was not really about correcting the timeline. Per the Ancient One, as the Avengers went back in time they created additional realities with each slight change. Returning the stones was to protect the stability of the alternate realities, but would not erase them.

Loki escaped NY with the Tesseract, & Cap was left mind controlled in the altered 2012. Howard Stark was given new confidence & Hank Pym suffered a decent research setback in altered 1970. The Asguardians are already on alert and Jane Foster possibly traumatized by the presence of a dangerous alien rabbit in their midst in altered 2013. In altered 2014, Starlord was foiled in getting the power stone, while Nebula, Gamora, Thanos & his whole army were transported into the main reality. This means that Quill wouldn't encounter Gamora, Rocket & Groot on Xandar. The Guardians might never form in that reality. OTOH, Thanos and his army are no longer players in that reality and Ronan wasn't aware that he was hunting an Infinity Stone until after the battle at Knowhere.

I don't think Iron Man sent Thanos & crew back in time, but erased them from existence in the same way Thanos did in IW. If he did, it would create another reality where Thanos had learned of his mistakes, and aim to destroy all life in that one. 

So Cap has to go back to those points and put the stones back, not to make sure that everything unfolds the same way, but to make sure that they are present in the alternate reality to keep it stable and preserve the lives of those who live in it. I'm sure there would be a new plot about chasing down Loki - would he go back to Thanos, or run away? Would Howard be a better Dad, or Hank's research be adversely affected? Would Ronan ever figure out the power stone, would the Guardians team up? Who can say, the details don't matter, just that the stones are present.

It's feels more Doctor Who than Back to the Future to me. Less about preserving the integrity of events, and more about doing some good in the moment and maybe making things better for the future. (except for the "fixed point in time" caveat that they added in for certain subjects)

Still trying to work out Steve, though.

 

Good explanation, I like it.

[sh9000]

Already have the blu ray preordered during the Target sale.  The next time my wife and I watch this will be in the comfort of our home.

[reddsun1]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 3:35 PM, Mazinger said:

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Curious what you guys thought of Doctor Strange's number one gesture.

I'm still not sure if he was saying - you just need to remove 1 stone or more like, Spock told Kirk, "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

 

I thought it was a brilliant bit of unspoken communication between Dr. Strange and Tony.  One way that it could be interpreted is that Strange was telling Tony: wait to make his move ["1 more minute"?, or "1 more second"?], i.e. it has to be at precisely the right moment.  OR, the much more likely meaning--at least for me--was his re-emphasizing to Tony: one way to win this. 

Spoiler

We can see in that moment that Tony recognizes: this is a culmination to everything that's been said and done, it's all lead up to this moment.  I'm the only one that can do this.  And I won't be coming back from this one...

 

[Dobber]

20 minutes ago, reddsun1 said:

I thought it was a brilliant bit of unspoken communication between Dr. Strange and Tony.  One way that it could be interpreted is that Strange was telling Tony: wait to make his move ["1 more minute"?, or "1 more second"?], i.e. it has to be at precisely the right moment.  OR, the much more likely meaning--at least for me--was his re-emphasizing to Tony: one way to win this. 

  Hide contents

We can see in that moment that Tony recognizes: this is a culmination to everything that's been said and done, it's all lead up to this moment.  I'm the only one that can do this.  And I won't be coming back from this one...

 

I loved that scene. For me it......

it is a call back to their conversation earlier in the fight, and Strange was telling Tony “THIS, is the one time in a billion, the One timeline, the One chance.” So much conveyed in a gesture and look. I thought it was beautifully done.

Chris

[reddsun1]

LOL, why the hell does Professor Hulk look so much like human Shrek? 

 

 

[sh9000]

 

[Mazinger]

29 minutes ago, sh9000 said:

 

Yeah I like this explanation, though, admittedly I was fine with what was offered up in the movie.

The fan service was strong enough, that I just didn't really need a bunch of self-consistent rules to exist in the first place.

Rules, sh'mules. Canon, sh'manon. 

[no3Ljm]

1 hour ago, reddsun1 said:

LOL, why the hell does Professor Hulk look so much like human Shrek? 

Coz human Shrek looks like Mark Ruffalo(?). 

 

[reddsun1]

Speaking of Professor Hulk...

Spoiler

 

That does bring me to the question: is his condition with his arm permanent, i.e. has using the gauntlet maimed him? or will his wounds heal, and how fast?  I thought his powers and abilities included rapid regeneration?  If MCU's Banner has in fact been permanently crippled by the gauntlet, a part of me wants to be a bit bummed in that it certainly strays from the source material [Oy!  this ain't the Hulk that we all know and love!].  But on the other hand, if the Hulk's wounds are "for good," I can respect the Russos' conviction to stick with their underlying theme of: our choices and our beliefs have consequences.  I think it should inspire us to think a little bit more about just how much we are willing to endure, what price are we willing to pay for the sake of others, the ones we love? 

 

On a bit of a tangent: could Prof Hulk's mindset have an effect on whether he'd fully recover [if he comes back in future MCU movies] and how fast?  IIRC, the Hulk's powers & strength are directly influenced by his emotional state, how angry he his.  And--I think this is by design on the Russos' part--Prof Hulk never gets pissed in Endgame, so we never get to see what he could really do.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by reddsun1