Avengers: Endgame

[Mog]

2 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Saw it, enjoyed it massively.

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- Double-bladed swords like Thanos has are super dumb and ugly and their breath smells, no wonder he lost.

 

Spoiler

I suspect the double blade appeals to Thanos' aesthetic of balance (I'm being half-serious and half-joking).

 

[Keith]

[Lolicon]

Best scene in the movie.

Spoiler

 

[Alex GS]

Effing loved Endgame!!

Edited April 28, 2019 by Alex GS

[myk]

Three hours of fan service and not even a peek at Elizabeth or Scarlett's boobs.  But at least they were consistent in keeping Carol Denvers as useless as ever...  D+...

Edited April 28, 2019 by myk

[jenius]

I saw it, there were a few scenes I wasn't a huge fan of but overall I thought it was suitably epic.

[HardlyNever]

Enjoyed it overall, but of course there are some plot holes/inconsistencies.  The one that bothers me most right now (or that I can't figure out) is:

Spoiler

When Thor goes back in time and gets another Mjolnir, doesn't that mean past Thor would now not have a Mjolnir?  Can they just make another one in Vahalla or something (since it still exists)?  Or did Captain America just bring it back (I know he took it back in time with him again)?  Do they explain how he got to all those places that weren't earth to return the stones?

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by HardlyNever

[jenius]

Yeah, cap brings it back with the stone so it's like it never left.

[Keith]

2 hours ago, HardlyNever said:

Enjoyed it overall, but of course there are some plot holes/inconsistencies.  The one that bothers me most right now (or that I can't figure out) is:

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When Thor goes back in time and gets another Mjolnir, doesn't that mean past Thor would now not have a Mjolnir?  Can they just make another one in Vahalla or something (since it still exists)?  Or did Captain America just bring it back (I know he took it back in time with him again)?  Do they explain how he got to all those places that weren't earth to return the stones?

 

- Cap had "all" the stones, and with them the ability to repair any time damage. The Time Stone, Mind Stone, & Reality Stone alone would have been enough to do that.

- Yes, he put back Mjolnir

- I assume he took back his original shield at some point to give to Falcon, since Thanos tore up his new one.

- I also assume Tony used his snap to send Thanos & his army mind wiped back through time, and didn't erase them.

- I also assume Bruce used his snap to clean up all the trash gathered for 5 years, and to clean up 5 years worth of infrastructure decay.

- Lastly. I assume that when Cap put the soul stone back, he punched Red Skull in the face.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Keith

[tekering]

I'm really glad I caught this on the big screen, in a packed theatre; audience reactions were a big part of the experience for me.  

And Thor being played for laughs is SOP since Ragnarok... and isn't a jokey Guardians of the Galaxy vibe better for Thor than a stone-faced Winter Soldier vibe?

Edited April 28, 2019 by tekering

[no3Ljm]

Love it! Though it somehow raises some questions regarding time related stuff.

Anyways found this video at YouTube. Spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

 

 

[sh9000]

 

[kalvasflam]

Paid my annual tribute to Sideshow Bob, although I have to say, this one was  worth it.  Some general  comments:

 

There is a lot of fan service, was anyone else thinking about how Hishe is going to make fun of when Capt says: "Avengers Assemble"  I can see  the Hishe where random Sorcerers or Asgardians pop up one after another and say "I'm not an avenger, I'm not an avenger either, do we get badges that says we're an avenger."  Then someone from Wakanda pop up and say: "Why can't we say Wakanda forever."  Followed by another catchy line, one after the other.

I liked how they portrayed Thanos in the opening, and the subtle nod to the comics.  In the comics, Warlock had said that Thanos always felt at an unconscious level that he was somehow unworthy.  This was nicely reflected in the fact that he choose to live after the Infinity stone was destroyed.  He had to know people was going to come after him.  He could have vanished himself permanently along with the stone.  Make life that much harder for the people who are after him, they can never be sure he is not out there somewhere.

Boy, a lot of plot holes on how they undid Thanos, and how they stuck around for five years.  Cause Banner had to really be detailed in his wish.  Unlike Thanos, he couldn't just say: "put things back the way it is before Thanos took out half the universe."  Then he would've undid the last five years and any good thing that happened, if he didn't do it right, suddenly the universe double in size, and everything is unbalanced, and not enough resources, blah blah blah.

A great movie overall.

Edited April 28, 2019 by kalvasflam

[kajnrig]

2 hours ago, Keith said:

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- I also assume Tony used his snap to send Thanos & his army mind wiped back through time, and didn't erase them.

- Lastly. I assume that when Cap put the soul stone back, he punched Red Skull in the face.

 

 

Time doesn't work that way. Tony doesn't have to worry about sending Thanos et al through time. Think of time travel like going to alternate universes.

I was talking to my cousin about Cap/Red Skull, too, and he said Cap might negotiate to bring back Nat. I don't think either of those (punch or Nat) would be likely. Cap seems to take the soul stone's inability to revive sacrifices at face value; and both characters have changed immensely since WWII, to the point that I bet they would simply acknowledge each other and get on with their respective tasks.

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2 hours ago, tekering said:

And Thor being played for laughs is SOP since Ragnarok... and isn't a jokey Guardians of the Galaxy vibe better for Thor than a stone-faced Winter Soldier vibe?

 

I prefer a "Shakespearean drama" Thor, ie what we got in Thor 1, Avengers, and slightly less so in Thor 2. His being unable to wield Mjolnir would, again, have really strengthened his character, would really demonstrate how far he's changed. By the end of Thor 1, he was basically King material. Thor 2, he's still basically King material. But then Ragnarok comes around and they do away completely with that sort of regal air about him. He basically resets to his personality from the beginning of Thor 1, that of a high school jock. Which admittedly is more in line with how he is in both the comics and actual Norse mythology, but still.

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53 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

Paid my annual tribute to Sideshow Bob, although I have to say, this one was  worth it.  Some general  comments:

  Hide contents

Boy, a lot of plot holes on how they undid Thanos, and how they stuck around for five years.  Cause Banner had to really be detailed in his wish.  Unlike Thanos, he couldn't just say: "put things back the way it is before Thanos took out half the universe."  Then he would've undid the last five years and any good thing that happened, if he didn't do it right, suddenly the universe double in size, and everything is unbalanced, and not enough resources, blah blah blah.

A great movie overall.

 

No, Bruce did basically exactly that, brought everybody back the way they were five years ago but in the present. So five years have passed for him and the rest of the survivors, but for everyone who snapped it was only literally a moment. Remember, time doesn't work the way you think it does.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by kajnrig

[Convectuoso]

Saw it last night with my wife and some friends. We really liked it

[Mazinger]

The Marvel movies culminating in Endgame are storytelling on a scale I don't think we've ever seen and might not ever again.

No single movie was perfect, no single performance the greatest in all film history.

But the sum of its parts will probably not be surpassed in my lifetime.

The creative heads that assembled the pieces (pun intended) have pulled off something incredible, and yet, I think of a quality that we could have predicted given what they have delivered over and over again.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Mazinger

[jenius]

The Captain's end makes absolutely zero sense from a time traveling perspective and unravels pretty much everything the movie establishes about time travel... so that was odd.

[no3Ljm]

Spoiler

Is it safe to assume that all the kids from Midtown School including Peter and Ned were vanished, only to return five years later and resume their current grade/level? I mean, if Ned wasn’t vanished then he shouldn’t be there when Peter went back to school, right? If so, then it will be convenient story-wise to continue their story in Far From Home. Imagine a scene where a grown-up Flash seeing Peter again for the first time after 5 years. He will have a kick out of it.  

 

[kalvasflam]

18 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

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Is it safe to assume that all the kids from Midtown School including Peter and Ned were vanished, only to return five years later and resume their current grade/level? I mean, if Ned wasn’t vanished then he shouldn’t be there when Peter went back to school, right? If so, then it will be convenient story-wise to continue their story in Far From Home. Imagine a scene where a grown-up Flash seeing Peter again for the first time after 5 years. He will have a kick out of it.  

 

they better have, and the teachers too perhaps, or may be not the teachers.  But if all these kids just came back at once, and the school was full of kids, that would cause all sorts of problems with overcrowding.

I am a bit divided about the five year time skip, but fat Thor was hilarious,  I suppose he was on his way to becoming Odin. 

[Keith]

3 hours ago, kajnrig said:

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Time doesn't work that way. Tony doesn't have to worry about sending Thanos et al through time. Think of time travel like going to alternate universes.

I was talking to my cousin about Cap/Red Skull, too, and he said Cap might negotiate to bring back Nat. I don't think either of those (punch or Nat) would be likely. Cap seems to take the soul stone's inability to revive sacrifices at face value; and both characters have changed immensely since WWII, to the point that I bet they would simply acknowledge each other and get on with their respective tasks.

-------

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I prefer a "Shakespearean drama" Thor, ie what we got in Thor 1, Avengers, and slightly less so in Thor 2. His being unable to wield Mjolnir would, again, have really strengthened his character, would really demonstrate how far he's changed. By the end of Thor 1, he was basically King material. Thor 2, he's still basically King material. But then Ragnarok comes around and they do away completely with that sort of regal air about him. He basically resets to his personality from the beginning of Thor 1, that of a high school jock. Which admittedly is more in line with how he is in both the comics and actual Norse mythology, but still.

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No, Bruce did basically exactly that, brought everybody back the way they were five years ago but in the present. So five years have passed for him and the rest of the survivors, but for everyone who snapped it was only literally a moment. Remember, time doesn't work the way you think it does.

 

 

And yet time "did" work like that.

- Cap did indeed have to return the infinity stones & hammer.

- The Ancient One made Bruce specifically promise to return the time stone, so as not to disrupt everything.

- Not returning Thanos/Gamora/Nebula & co would have been equally disruptive.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Keith

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

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And yet time "did" work like that.

- Cap did indeed have to return the infinity stones & hammer.

Given they already caused shenanigans the first go around, like giving Loki the Tesseract and knocking Quill out thirty seconds before the... Kree?... shows up, I figure the MCU isn't really trying too hard at keeping the continuity "proper." So long as Steve returns the stones so that they can be destroyed so they can't exist as temptation for resolving the next cosmic kerfuffle, I think that's all the continuity they intend to acknowledge. They coulda kept the hammer, too. Shoulda kept the hammet.

I dunno, I could be wrong. Maybe a second/third viewing will help me better understand the time shenanigans, but if playing fast and loose with that detail is good enough for Marvel, it's good enough for me.

[kalvasflam]

54 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

 

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Given they already caused shenanigans the first go around, like giving Loki the Tesseract and knocking Quill out thirty seconds before the... Kree?... shows up, I figure the MCU isn't really trying too hard at keeping the continuity "proper." So long as Steve returns the stones so that they can be destroyed so they can't exist as temptation for resolving the next cosmic kerfuffle, I think that's all the continuity they intend to acknowledge. They coulda kept the hammer, too. Shoulda kept the hammet.

I dunno, I could be wrong. Maybe a second/third viewing will help me better understand the time shenanigans, but if playing fast and loose with that detail is good enough for Marvel, it's good enough for me.

 

 

My take is that they ended up creating an alternate timeline by doing what they did. 

The reasoning is simple.  2014 Nebula died, so she isn't around to become good Nebula, and then be available to kill herself or to screw things up later.  That right there is a paradox. 

Then there is Gamora, 2014 Gamora stuck around in the future, so, technically, she isn't there in the past.  Marvel was smart not to really talk about this whole Pandora's box.

Finally, there is Thanos himself, because if 2014 Thanos kicked the bucket, he isn't going to be around to snap his fingers in 2018 and disappear half the universe.  Now, you can explain away Thanos by saying he and the rest got back to 2014 because of Stark. 

But if Gamora 2014 sticks around, you can't physically make GoG work without Gamora because she ends up being somewhat critical in 2014.  Same concept in general with Nebula.  I guess we'll see how this universe shapes up.  One of these days, they are going to make an MCU recap movie, the sole purpose of which is to recap everything since 2008, and sets up for the next arc. 

I suggest they do that one in 2023, 15th anniversary of the MCU.  Then make it a downloadable on Disney+. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by kalvasflam

[renegadeleader1]

14 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

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My take is that they ended up creating an alternate timeline by doing what they did. 

The reasoning is simple.  2014 Nebula died, so she isn't around to become good Nebula, and then be available to kill herself or to screw things up later.  That right there is a paradox. 

Then there is Gamora, 2014 Gamora stuck around in the future, so, technically, she isn't there in the past.  Marvel was smart not to really talk about this whole Pandora's box.

Finally, there is Thanos himself, because if 2014 Thanos kicked the bucket, he isn't going to be around to snap his fingers in 2018 and disappear half the universe.  Now, you can explain away Thanos by saying he and the rest got back to 2014 because of Stark. 

But if Gamora 2014 sticks around, you can't physically make GoG work without Gamora because she ends up being somewhat critical in 2014.  Same concept in general with Nebula.  I guess we'll see how this universe shapes up.  One of these days, they are going to make an MCU recap movie, the sole purpose of which is to recap everything since 2008, and sets up for the next arc. 

I suggest they do that one in 2023, 15th anniversary of the MCU.  Then make it a downloadable on Disney+. 

And this my friend is why I called the film a muddled mess on the previous page.

[no3Ljm]

18 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

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My take is that they ended up creating an alternate timeline by doing what they did. 

The reasoning is simple.  2014 Nebula died, so she isn't around to become good Nebula, and then be available to kill herself or to screw things up later.  That right there is a paradox. 

Then there is Gamora, 2014 Gamora stuck around in the future, so, technically, she isn't there in the past.  Marvel was smart not to really talk about this whole Pandora's box.

Finally, there is Thanos himself, because if 2014 Thanos kicked the bucket, he isn't going to be around to snap his fingers in 2018 and disappear half the universe.  Now, you can explain away Thanos by saying he and the rest got back to 2014 because of Stark. 

But if Gamora 2014 sticks around, you can't physically make GoG work without Gamora because she ends up being somewhat critical in 2014.  Same concept in general with Nebula.  I guess we'll see how this universe shapes up.  One of these days, they are going to make an MCU recap movie, the sole purpose of which is to recap everything since 2008, and sets up for the next arc. 

I suggest they do that one in 2023, 15th anniversary of the MCU.  Then make it a downloadable on Disney+. 

Spoiler

I agree with these paradoxes. There should’ve been some time ripple effect.

 

[kajnrig]

16 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

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My take is that they ended up creating an alternate timeline by doing what they did. 

The reasoning is simple.  2014 Nebula died, so she isn't around to become good Nebula, and then be available to kill herself or to screw things up later.  That right there is a paradox. 

Then there is Gamora, 2014 Gamora stuck around in the future, so, technically, she isn't there in the past.  Marvel was smart not to really talk about this whole Pandora's box.

Finally, there is Thanos himself, because if 2014 Thanos kicked the bucket, he isn't going to be around to snap his fingers in 2018 and disappear half the universe.  Now, you can explain away Thanos by saying he and the rest got back to 2014 because of Stark. 

But if Gamora 2014 sticks around, you can't physically make GoG work without Gamora because she ends up being somewhat critical in 2014.  Same concept in general with Nebula.  I guess we'll see how this universe shapes up.  One of these days, they are going to make an MCU recap movie, the sole purpose of which is to recap everything since 2008, and sets up for the next arc. 

I suggest they do that one in 2023, 15th anniversary of the MCU.  Then make it a downloadable on Disney+. 

All this is precisely why I prefer to think

of the timelines as alternate universes. Alternate timelines works, too. Every one of these inconsistencies - and even the Old Cap, now I think on it - can be explained or handwaved away by alternate universes/timelines. The only thing necessary to keep each timeline "stable" is that the six stones always exist, so as long as Cap returns the stones to their proper places in their proper moments in time, then whatever else happens in those timelines doesn't matter all THAT much to the world stability.

Old Cap might technically be a different Steve, albeit one who comes from a universe that is an exact mirror of the MCU, differing only in that its Avengers time-jump to technically different alternate timelines that are exact mirrors of their respective scenarios. Maybe at the moment of Steve returning the stones and remaining in the past, he is swapping universes with that other Steve. Or if there are multiple or even infinite exact mirrors of the MCU, maybe they all jump "one universe over," so to speak. Either way, it's not really all that important as far as the emotional resonance of the film is concerned.

[Mommar]

5 hours ago, jenius said:

 

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The Captain's end makes absolutely zero sense from a time traveling perspective and unravels pretty much everything the movie establishes about time travel... so that was odd.

 

How?

[eXis10z]

9 hours ago, sh9000 said:

 

So many spoilers in that 1 tv spot.

Edited April 29, 2019 by eXis10z

[Keith]

That's just it,

 

Do we see 2014 Gamora after Tony's snap? Are you sure 2014 Nebula was dead? No one said she was shot anywhere critical. As for Loki, that was an obvious setup for a later reveal.

I get the whole divergent timeline thing, I just don't think that's what's going on here. Seems a lot more like Quantum Leap style string theory. i.e. Every moment in time is occurring concurrently, and moving through the Quantum Realm to specific space time coordinates allowed them to skip across the timeline. As long as events occurred naturally, the timeline wasn't broken.

Which isn't to say that there isn't a divergence, there are at least 2.

- Cap caused one that all events occurred in when he stayed back in time.

- Agents of SHIELD caused one when they prevented the destruction of Earth.

That leaves at least potential 2 divergent timelines where these events occur (1 with Cap living out his life back in time & 1 where he returns). The Timeline where SHIELD doesn't save Earth is an automatic fail, which is why they can retrieve Fitz from space with no worry.[/spoiler]

Edited April 29, 2019 by Keith

[Mommar]

24 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's just it,

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- Cap caused one that all events occurred in when he stayed back in time.

[/spoiler]

Why is that divergent?

[kajnrig]

11 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's just it,

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Do we see 2014 Gamora after Tony's snap? Are you sure 2014 Nebula was dead? No one said she was shot anywhere critical. As for Loki, that was an obvious setup for a later reveal.

The unspoken implications seemed pretty clear, but you're right, I suppose. they DON'T explicitly say what happens to either sister.

Loki I thought was getting his own show on Disney's new streaming service? If anything I thought it would be preamble to that.

11 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's just it,

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I get the whole divergent timeline thing, I just don't think that's what's going on here.

Yeah, maybe not. Just helps me personally.

11 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's just it,

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- Agents of SHIELD caused one when they prevented the destruction of Earth.

They did what now? Sheesh, I didn't even realize that show was still chugging along. Last I heard was about Ghost Rider apparently making an appearance.

[Mommar]

Spoiler

The comics easily explain this.  The main timeline is 616.  That's the 616 Universe.  The Ultimate Comics is 1610.  If something drastic changes to the timeline in 616 you end up with a new universe that's now 1611.  On top of that there isn't anything to suggest that Cap going back in time isn't what was always supposed to happen in the MCU timeline.  There could be an MCU25 where he goes back in time and is hit by a bus and there won't be an old Steve at the bench.  It's also possible when Steve went back in time this became MCU74.  All of these ideas of things popping into and out of existence or ripple effects are the workings of other science fiction stories, not Marvel.  They're not applicable here.

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Mommar

[Keith]

16 minutes ago, Mommar said:

The comics easily explain this.  The main timeline is 616.  That's the 616 Universe.  The Ultimate Comics is 1610.  If something drastic changes to the timeline in 616 you end up with a new universe that's now 1611.  On top of that there isn't anything to suggest that Cap going back in time isn't what was always supposed to happen in the MCU timeline.  There could be an MCU25 where he goes back in time and is hit by a bus and there won't be an old Steve at the bench.  It's also possible when Steve went back in time this became MCU74.  All of these ideas of things popping into and out of existence or ripple effects are the workings of other science fiction stories, not Marvel.  They're not applicable here.

Tag your spoilers bra.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Keith

[Keith]

19 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

They did what now? Sheesh, I didn't even realize that show was still chugging along. Last I heard was about Ghost Rider apparently making an appearance.

Yeah, they did a whole Kree thing to wrap up their inhumans mess.

[kalvasflam]

4 hours ago, kajnrig said:

All this is precisely why I prefer to think

 

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of the timelines as alternate universes. Alternate timelines works, too. Every one of these inconsistencies - and even the Old Cap, now I think on it - can be explained or handwaved away by alternate universes/timelines. The only thing necessary to keep each timeline "stable" is that the six stones always exist, so as long as Cap returns the stones to their proper places in their proper moments in time, then whatever else happens in those timelines doesn't matter all THAT much to the world stability.

Old Cap might technically be a different Steve, albeit one who comes from a universe that is an exact mirror of the MCU, differing only in that its Avengers time-jump to technically different alternate timelines that are exact mirrors of their respective scenarios. Maybe at the moment of Steve returning the stones and remaining in the past, he is swapping universes with that other Steve. Or if there are multiple or even infinite exact mirrors of the MCU, maybe they all jump "one universe over," so to speak. Either way, it's not really all that important as far as the emotional resonance of the film is concerned.

 

My god, that explanation sounds like DC.  ha ha.

[chyll2]

 

As explained by the Ancient one, if you remove the stone from a universe, it has an adverse effect or it will be put into danger.

 

What would happen to the current universe wherein all of the stones are gone

Edited April 29, 2019 by chyll2