Avengers: Endgame

[peter]

On 4/30/2019 at 7:09 AM, Keith said:

 

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Did you see her after Tony's snap? If she was still in the present, she'd need a ride back to space. I didn't see her with The Guardians, and can't imagine she'd hang around Earth.

Still think Tony sent her back in time with Thanos & crew.

 

Spoiler

I think it was implied at the end with Peter Quill looking at the image of Gamora, the next Asguardians of the Galaxy film might be about The Search for Gamora.

I also think Stark just erased Thanos and his pals.  Stark didn't look like he was in the mental state of nicely returning Thanos to 2014, free to run amok.

 

[kajnrig]

https://deadline.com/2019/05/avengers-endgame-first-week-china-global-international-box-office-results-records-1202604612/amp/

Jesus. Any bets on how much more extravagant a movie will have to be to break the box office record this will undoubtedly set?

[eXis10z]

Most queries answered here

https://cosmicbook.news/avengers-endgame-plot-holes-answered

Edited May 2, 2019 by eXis10z

[kalvasflam]

So, Russo’s essential point was that everything is up for grabs.  In a way, that makes it less impactful because there isn’t permanence outside of the need for RDJ to get more cash from Sideshow Bob.

[reddsun1]

Well, hell.  Like in the other link above, Joe Russo's interview pretty much takes my little theory about the true meaning of Strange's gesture to Tony in the final battle, and:

(at least, as far as concerning just who the only one who could stop Thanos was, anyways)

other linky here: https://www.looper.com/151745/joe-russo-reveals-the-true-hero-of-endgame/

Turns out, the true hero of Endgame wasn't one of the "heroes" after all?  Ain't that a bi**h!    And my daughter totally caught that in the moment in the theater.  She was like: "hey, wait!  So the only reason he was able to get out was because of that...." and I was like: shush! we don't want to miss anything!  Turns out, she caught it alright--and I totally missed [the significance of] it at the time! 

Edited May 2, 2019 by reddsun1

[F18LEGIOSS]

About Natasha Romanov :

Spoiler

Did anyone notice how Natasha cuts her swandwich in half? I think it is a reference to Nick Fury. He might show up in the black widow spin off

 

[sh9000]

 

[sh9000]

 

[Chronocidal]

Finally just saw this last night, and yeah... I loved it, but my nerd side is screaming about the gaps.

I think the entire discussion they had about how "time travel doesn't work like in the movies" was essentially a tongue-in-cheek warning that said "we're ignoring everything everyone has ever said about how time travel should work to do our own thing, so shut up."  They pretty much just decided to beat causality to death, and sacrifice every divergent possible reality in order to build one "best" ending.

The big sticking points for me have mostly been mentioned.  Mostly it just seems that making changes in the past does absolutely squat to your current reality.  It's like cutting and pasting bits of multiple cuts of a movie into a final product that only uses the best parts.  The weird part of that is that they still sometimes treated it like it mattered to restore the past to the way it should have been.. except for when they didn't?

I think Tony's snap gets to be the designated application of handwavium in this case, because there are a lot of things that would take a literal rewriting of reality to fix.

As far as Loki is concerned though, I realized after the movie that this is literally a non-issue.  Since Cap and Tony acquired the Tesseract at a different point in time, all Steve had to do in New York was deliver the Time Stone on schedule, wake up and mind-wipe his past self and give him back the scepter, and then call off the original attempt to steal the Tesseract before it fails, since it didn't have to succeed.  All of the New York returns would be pretty cut and dry.

Returning the Power Stone... So, what I'm actually curious about with Steve's journey... considering he had all of the stones, and could potentially make use of them (in theory anyway), I wonder if he used the Mind Stone to tweak people's memories across the board, and get them back on track to continue where things had been interrupted.  That one's not too hard either.

The Ether... I'm really wishing we could have seen this.  "Oh hey Jane, I need to inject you with this red goop that someone else will remove shortly, so we can preserve the timeline."  Technically speaking.. given her background, I imagine she might have been totally on board with the explanation.  This is where he would have dropped off Mjolnir as well.

Now.. the Soul Stone is a sticky wicket of epic proportions.  I have no idea how you explain this one.  We just don't know how this stone functions.  Does every sacrifice make a new one?  Did Steve literally deliver it to the Red Skull?  Can there be more than one of that stone?  Was there even a reason to return that one, or could it have been destroyed/dissolved?  I would love to see that scene played out, honestly.

Which... brings me to what I think is my biggest sticking point on this.  Gamora.  She was the Soul Stone originally.. now it's Nat... and Gamora from the past is now transported into the future, so she's never sacrificed.  But that seems to have had no effect on the past?  And killing Thanos before he ever performs the original snap.. somehow doesn't change the events of the past ten years of movies.

It's odd, and unheard of in most time-travel movies that changing your past has no effect on your present.  I get it, they're treating it as a pure alternate-reality situation..

But that's a problem, because it cheapens any loss into the dirt.  If what they're saying is you can drag someone from the past into the future to save them, all they need to do is literally travel back in time a week or so, drag an alternate Nat and Tony from the past into the present, and everyone lives happily ever after, because you just start splitting off alternate realities that don't matter, because you condemn them to elimination.  Like I said, it's a film editing room, and you're picking the best bits, and leaving the rest on the floor.

Anyhow though.. One thing they didn't really elaborate on that I would have liked to see.  The Ancient One mentioned that the universe falls apart if the stones aren't around.. and Thanos basically deleted them.  The implication seems to be that the universe didn't quite work correctly in the interim.  I think it would have been more interesting if they had explained that no one had aged in the past five years, which would have made the return of everyone lost a bit easier to process.

So.. yeah.. good movie, loved the majority of it, and had some great moments.  But hooo boy did they do a number on the universe.  I have to wonder if the next ten years of Marvel movies will be spent unscrewing bits of what happened.

 

[sh9000]

 

 

[hachi]

Watched it again today.

Spoiler

Still teary-eyed at the 2 Avengers' deaths. And I can't get enough of Cap with Mjolnir vs Thanos!

And this 2nd viewing the theatre was mostly empty at 10:35 am. The 12pm onwards are fully booked though. I think my first viewing was the best because it was fully packed and the crowd was really into it with their reactions. The 2nd one, I could clearly hear somebody sniffing (that was not me)

 

 

[derex3592]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:19 AM, ArchieNov said:

I guess I'll be the odd man out and say that the movie was more disappointing than rewarding for me. I give it a 6/10. Infinity War was a much better film.

While there's a bunch of great moments, it also has a lot of flaws that anyone with critical thinking or common sense would be bothered with.

I wish they took more time to think the plot more thoroughly.

Finally saw it last night with the wife and brother in law, I have to agree completely with the above statement.  Lots of good moments, but IW was a better movie. I get that this one had to be a little slower paced up until the end, and I like how they gave a proper send off to most of the cast, but overall it was a bit of a mess if you start thinking to hard about it. 6.5/10 for me. 

[Chronocidal]

Finally got around to reading the Russo "explanation"... yeah, that explained nothing.

Spoiler-free version is that their "rule" for the movie universe completely undermines the idea that anything "had" to happen the way it did.  

They just arbitrarily decided to not follow their own rules to fit the plot as needed.

 

They took a jaunty stroll through the multiverse, and doomed a few parallel realities with their actions.  As long as they're ok with this, there is no reason not to pull alternate Tony and Nat from the past and paste together a perfect ending.

The rules they wrote eliminated any dramatic weight any death could possibly have, so they pulled a Kaiba:  "Screw the rules, we have plot."

Edited May 5, 2019 by Chronocidal

[TangledThorns]

Finally saw it and made it till about 5 or 10 minutes till credits rolled to leave the auditorium for the longest piss I've had in several years. Seriously, any film over 2.5hrs needs a frakking intermission.

ENDGAME was good however I'm still way more hyped for GODZILLA to be released this month!!

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by TangledThorns

[jvmacross]

50 minutes ago, TangledThorns said:

Finally saw it and made it till about 5 or 10 minutes till credits rolled to leave the auditorium for the longest piss I've ever had in several years. Seriously, any film over 2.5hrs needs a frakking intermission.

 

 

[sh9000]

 

[Chronocidal]

So I'll spoiler this for now, but I'm expecting the news to leak out fast with the official word being that all bets are off with the new Spiderman 2 trailer out.

So, in multiverse terms, I'd expect one new reality to have splintered off from Thanos being removed from 2014.  That means there are at least two divergent realities where Thanos failed: one where the snap was reversed after 5 years, and another where it never occurred at all... and any others splintered off of the divergent 2014 where Thanos jumped into the future, and never returned.

What I really want to know is whether the quantum travel in Endgame was advanced enough to purposefully navigate the multiverse.  They didn't really mention it, but it theoretically had to be, or else Cap could have been returning the stones to other divergent realities, and potentially splintering the universe even further.

So, I wonder how they will treat the multiverse going forward, and how significant an event has to be to split off a new divergent reality.

Theoretically speaking, if you assume removing an infinity stone from one reality would count, returning the stone doesn't eliminate one path.. it splits off two realities from that point: one with the stone, and one without it.

If they limit the reality splitting events to ones involving the stones, that might help keep a handle on how complicated things get at least, but it just lands on the big question: can you quantum travel to a specific universe, or does every time travel event by nature require you to splinter off a new one? 

Banner and the Ancient One's discussion sounded like you could purposefully eliminate divergent realities, and merge them together by returning things to the way they were, and possibly closing everything off into stable time loops... but obviously that didn't happen for all of them.  The fact that old Cap in the final scene was in "our" universe means he either eliminated enough of the paradoxes to return naturally to that universe, or he had to make another jump from his universe with Peggy back to his original timeline.

I just hope they don't dive face-first down this rabbit hole and we wind up with every movie existing in its own continuity.  It's bad enough in the comics.  It also leaves things wide-open for any and all characters ever killed off in any way to return, if they really want it.  

[sh9000]

 

[reddsun1]

The Russos appear to have thoroughly enjoyed their opening of a great big ol' Sam's Club-sized can o' worms and tossing it right onto the middle of the dining room table, then walking right on out of the dinner party... 

From all the is-it-an-alternate-timeline-or-a-different-reality mumbo jumbo; to permanently maiming the Hulk; to the arguably un-characteristic ending for Cap; there are some aspects to this film that history and critical discussion may not be at all kind to. 

[Chronocidal]

See, I'm really torn about the above, because while I'm frustrated by the lack of a coherent set of rules governing the way things work, I'm also fully on-board with the plot as a whole.  I think it was an amazing ride, and a fitting end to all the build-up of the past movies.  Cap's ending was exactly what I was hoping for, honestly, from even before Infinity War.  The other big finale was literally ten years in the making, and after re-watching a few of the previous movies, you can tell it's what they had planned from long ago.  The directors have even said as much.

I just wish they had been a bit more consistent and clear about what's actually involved in tying up all the loose ends.

To quote Mordo, "The bill comes due."  I think the haphazard treatment of the universe in this film is absolutely going to take the next ten years of movies to actually unscrew.

The really heartbreaking thought in the back of my head actually pertains to exactly what Tony's snap accomplished.  Obviously, Thanos and his minions got dusted, but what specifically did he wish for?  Was it that all of Thanos' forces be returned to their time?  Was it that they would cease to exist?  Or did he specifically wish for anyone loyal to Thanos to poof?

The really sad angle to this is that, depending on the exact wording of Tony's thoughts, Gamora may have wound up dusted along with Thanos.  The end scene with Thor and Peter seemed to indicate they're going to be looking for her, and I can't really imagine they'll write her out of GotG Vol 3, but we really won't know for a while.

What worries me about the multiverse angle is that they're setting up the possibility of what happened years back with the TV show "Fringe," where you had a father who lost his child kidnapping the alternate universe copy of said child, and raising them as their own.

How many universes did the Avengers screw over by the changes they made in Endgame?  How many alternate realities are going to be leaking into the "prime" universe, with alternate versions of characters looking for ways to steal victory from other timelines?  How many times are we leaving the door open for alternate copies of Tony Stark to pop in and make a mess of one universe in his efforts to help another?  

On the other hand, it does leave the MCU open for recasting a lot of folks, since it's pretty easy to handwave people looking different as being from alternate timelines where things happened differently.  It's just going to get more difficult to keep track of things, and the movies could start to imitate the comic books in ways I don't think the average non-comic book fan will be able to keep up with.

 

[sh9000]

 

[kalvasflam]

I would agree with the treatment of the Hulk as the downside, and seriously, Wished the Russo’s were consistent with GOtG on why infinity gems aren’t good for the user.

[Sildani]

No MCU movie ended that did not begin another. 

[sh9000]

 

[reddsun1]

18 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

See, I'm really torn about the above, because while I'm frustrated by the lack of a coherent set of rules governing the way things work, I'm also fully on-board with the plot as a whole.  I think it was an amazing ride, and a fitting end to all the build-up of the past movies.  Cap's ending was exactly what I was hoping for, honestly, from even before Infinity War.  The other big finale was literally ten years in the making, and after re-watching a few of the previous movies, you can tell it's what they had planned from long ago.  The directors have even said as much.

I just wish they had been a bit more consistent and clear about what's actually involved in tying up all the loose ends.

To quote Mordo, "The bill comes due."  I think the haphazard treatment of the universe in this film is absolutely going to take the next ten years of movies to actually unscrew.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The really heartbreaking thought in the back of my head actually pertains to exactly what Tony's snap accomplished.  Obviously, Thanos and his minions got dusted, but what specifically did he wish for?  Was it that all of Thanos' forces be returned to their time?  Was it that they would cease to exist?  Or did he specifically wish for anyone loyal to Thanos to poof?

The really sad angle to this is that, depending on the exact wording of Tony's thoughts, Gamora may have wound up dusted along with Thanos.  The end scene with Thor and Peter seemed to indicate they're going to be looking for her, and I can't really imagine they'll write her out of GotG Vol 3, but we really won't know for a while.

What worries me about the multiverse angle is that they're setting up the possibility of what happened years back with the TV show "Fringe," where you had a father who lost his child kidnapping the alternate universe copy of said child, and raising them as their own.

How many universes did the Avengers screw over by the changes they made in Endgame?  How many alternate realities are going to be leaking into the "prime" universe, with alternate versions of characters looking for ways to steal victory from other timelines?  How many times are we leaving the door open for alternate copies of Tony Stark to pop in and make a mess of one universe in his efforts to help another?  

On the other hand, it does leave the MCU open for recasting a lot of folks, since it's pretty easy to handwave people looking different as being from alternate timelines where things happened differently.  It's just going to get more difficult to keep track of things, and the movies could start to imitate the comic books in ways I don't think the average non-comic book fan will be able to keep up with.

 

I too initially had a knee-jerk reaction to Cap's side-mission when I first saw it.  I thought: this is so un-Captain America-like that this is gonna piss people off to no end.  At first blush, it does seem to trivialize all the sentiments and ideals he professed to believe in and stand for in all the films that had come before.  What happened to "I'm with you 'til the end," eh?  The character of Captain America--no, Steve Rogers, the man behind the shield--is supposed to embody all that we should aspire to be as Americans [or citizens of one's respective country, I suppose].  This is like he's turning his back on all of that....

But when I gave it some more reflection, I conceded to myself: man, you need to lighten up a bit, eh?  This is still the story of a mortal man, albeit a man augmented by the effects of super-soldier serum and all the benefits thereof.  But with that in mind: even if the serum helps slow his aging process [is that ever implied/established in the MCU?], he's still not going to be able to soldier on and "fight the good fight" forever.  Eventually he would have to hang up his helmet and uniform,  Just how does someone bring closure to that part of their life, especially after sacrificing so much for it?  Audiences have spent the better part of a decade rooting for Cap, no doubt thinking and wishing that if any one Avenger could just catch a break, it ought to be him, right? 

 

ed: on a side note, I loved the elevator scene, was definitely worth a chuckle.  I got the impression that it was meant as a nod to a significant event from the comics, but also their way of saying: look, this is about as close as we're gonna get to that little "blemish" on the Captain's shield.

[reddsun1]

Hah!  I'm not the only one who noticed....

 

Just remember, I said it first, eh? 

[reddsun1]

18 minutes ago, reddsun1 said:

I too initially had a knee-jerk reaction to Cap's side-mission when I first saw it.  I thought: this is so un-Captain America-like that this is gonna piss people off to no end.  At first blush, it does seem to trivialize all the sentiments and ideals he professed to believe in and stand for in all the films that had come before.  What happened to "I'm with you 'til the end," eh?  The character of Captain America--no, Steve Rogers, the man behind the shield--is supposed to embody all that we should aspire to be as Americans [or citizens of one's respective country, I suppose].  This is like he's turning his back on all of that....

But when I gave it some more reflection, I conceded to myself: man, you need to lighten up a bit, eh?  This is still the story of a mortal man, albeit a man augmented by the effects of super-soldier serum and all the benefits thereof.  But with that in mind: even if the serum helps slow his aging process [is that ever implied/established in the MCU?], he's still not going to be able to soldier on and "fight the good fight" forever.  Eventually he would have to hang up his helmet and uniform,  Just how does someone bring closure to that part of their life, especially after sacrificing so much for it?  Audiences have spent the better part of a decade rooting for Cap, no doubt thinking and wishing that if any one Avenger could just catch a break, it ought to be him, right? 

 

ed: on a side note, I loved the elevator scene, was definitely worth a chuckle.  I got the impression that it was meant as a nod to a significant event from the comics, but also their way of saying: look, this is about as close as we're gonna get to that little "blemish" on the Captain's shield.

Actually, I take that back.  I call bulls**t.  Clint Eastwood already gave us "old Captain America." 

[Chronocidal]

1 hour ago, reddsun1 said:

Actually, I take that back.  I call bulls**t.  Clint Eastwood already gave us "old Captain America." 

Heheh.. it's a fair point.  One thing to keep in mind though: we don't know all of what Cap did in that alternate past.  If we're running on the assumption that him going back would cause another split timeline, it's entirely possible he continued onward in that alternate universe doing what he could to improve the world. 

Even if it didn't involve a shield and uniform, there are so many things his knowledge of the future could enable him to do.  He could have outed Hydra before it ever took root in SHIELD, and changed things for the better to ensure another reality never had to deal with Thanos, let alone any of the more catastrophic events of any of the other MCU movies.  Just a few helpful words in the right ears could have resulted in a very different timeline.

Even if everything up until the snap occurred exactly as we've already seen, all it would really take is four words passed on to Thor at the proper time:  "Aim for the head."

I did love that elevator scene too actually, particularly due to how they set it up as a mirror of the earlier/later scene in Winter Solder.  

One other fun thing to consider though.  Cap returned to the future with a new shield for Sam.  Someone had to manufacture that, because I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he didn't steal it from his alternate universe self (unless they had a spare in the prime universe, which is also possible).

I'm actually thinking that Cap made an even better future than the one we see, at least as pertains to the MCU.  I don't know if it was standard practice to stock the time travel suits with Pym particles for the long run, or if he had just enough for that final jump.  The way they're treating the multiverse angle, he would have had to make a jump back into the prime timeline to deliver that shield.  So the likelihood is that quantum travel was also developed in that universe, unless the suit he went back with still worked over 70 years later.  So yeah.  Tony and Nat are probably alive and well one universe over.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Chronocidal

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, reddsun1 said:

even if the serum helps slow his aging process [is that ever implied/established in the MCU?]

IIRC, in the comics at least it's quite the opposite. In one of the arcs that may or may not have been retconned/AUed/whatever, the serum ages him rapidly, and he ends up giving the shield to the Falcon, who becomes the new Captain America. I don't think that particular point is ever touched on in the MCU.

[kalvasflam]

Cap was with him till the end.  

Stark does, the end came, Cap was with him, and then he moved on... or back I should say

[Chronocidal]

So someone I know taking IT classes made a really funny point about this movie.

The entire plan to save the universe was almost unraveled due to an IP address conflict.  

[Mommar]

39 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

IIRC, in the comics at least it's quite the opposite. In one of the arcs that may or may not have been retconned/AUed/whatever, the serum ages him rapidly, and he ends up giving the shield to the Falcon, who becomes the new Captain America. I don't think that particular point is ever touched on in the MCU.

The serum is removed.  Without it Steve rapidly aged.  Though in the comics Falcon also is enhanced with super strength, etc, so it makes more sense he could use the shield there. 

[kajnrig]

Ah, I stand corrected. Thanks.

[Mommar]

Just now, kajnrig said:

Ah, I stand corrected. Thanks.

Close enough.

[mickyg]

4 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

So someone I know taking IT classes made a really funny point about this movie.

The entire plan to save the universe was almost unraveled due to an IP address conflict.  

This!  What a crazy concept.  I think I had that thought during the movie but didn't know how to articulate it.