Bandai DX Chogokin 1/48 VF-1

[DYRL VF-1S]

On 10/5/2020 at 9:35 AM, sqidd said:

Can I make something better. OH HE!! YES I CAN! Will it price those items out of the market? Probably.

Yup, design is an interesting beast. To me, the SSPs of the Yammies are simply a matter of feature creep. Most of it is so unnecessary. And honestly, how often does anyone here actually use it? What, like maybe one Valk armed with SSPs that show the inside for a photo or one for display? If I'm Bandai, I realized that early on and put my design dollars somewhere else.

The fact is this: Most of you own the SSPs from Bandai if you own them from Yamato 1/48s. What does Bandai care as long as you're buying them? What tips the scale is if the lack of design means you won't buy them. Otherwise, they deemed another feature more important and placed resources on that priority.

It's not a matter of not being able to design something vastly improved over Yamato; it's a matter of weighing the investment against return on investment based on budget.

Edited October 7, 2020 by DYRL VF-1S

[treatment]

16 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Yup, design is an interesting beast. To me, the SSPs of the Yammies are simply a matter of design creep. Most of it is so unnecessary. And honestly, how often does anyone here actually use it? What, like maybe one Valk armed with SSPs that show the inside for a photo or one for display? If I'm Bandai, I realized that early on and put my design dollars somewhere else.

The fact is this: Most of you own the SSPs from Bandai if you own them from Yamato 1/48s. What does Bandai care as long as you're buying them? What tips the scale is if the lack of design means you won't buy them. Otherwise, they deemed another feature more important and placed resources on that priority.

It's not a matter of not being able to design something vastly improved over Yamato; it's a matter of weighing the investment against return on investment based on budget.

Design creep?

Bandai's FPs actually have similar albeit somewhat nerfed designs on their FPs like the old Yammies, as they've shown in the TN event DX-Macross annoucement,

They then inexplicably glued the leg-FPs together once released years later.

That's not really design-creep.

Maybe more of a design-failure on their part...

 

[DYRL VF-1S]

1 minute ago, treatment said:

Design creep?

Bandai's FPs actually have similar albeit somewhat nerfed designs on their FPs like the old Yammies, as they've shown in the TN event DX-Macross annoucement,

They then inexplicably glued the leg-FPs together once released years later.

That's not really design-creep.

Maybe more of a design-failure on their part...

 

Do you know much about design? Like, are you a subject matter expert? I know what I'm talking about (albeit, I meant to say "feature creep" and revised my post to reflect that). My profession is to communicate design. Any engineers, designers or UX designers care to comment?

It's not a matter of design failure at all. As you pointed out, they are capable of the design and have displayed it as such. You also see detail when prying open as you mentioned.

Am I incorrect in stating that most people on this board who own SSPs from the 1/48 Yamato also own SSPs from Bandai for the DX - all while knowing that they didn't have the same features as Yammies? Bandai chose to be light on SSP features because it wasn't necessary. Even if end users complain, we still buy them. What we don't have insight to is what budget Bandai allocates to the DX line for Macross. They obviously took resources that could've been spent on (what I would call) overly designed SSPs and used them to deliver something else in the line. For all we know, something we really enjoy about the DX line is due to that very thing.

[DYRL VF-1S]

Oh and just in case you aren't familiar with the term "feature creep:" https://lmgtfy.app/?q="feature+creep"

[treatment]

2 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Do you know much about design? Like, are you a subject matter expert? I know what I'm talking about (albeit, I meant to say "feature creep" and revised my post to reflect that). My profession is to communicate design. Any engineers, designers or UX designers care to comment?

It's not a matter of design failure at all. As you pointed out, they are capable of the design and have displayed it as such. You also see detail when prying open as you mentioned.

Am I incorrect in stating that most people on this board who own SSPs from the 1/48 Yamato also own SSPs from Bandai for the DX - all while knowing that they didn't have the same features as Yammies? Bandai chose to be light on SSP features because it wasn't necessary. Even if end users complain, we still buy them. What we don't have insight to is what budget Bandai allocates to the DX line for Macross. They obviously took resources that could've been spent on (what I would call) overly designed SSPs and used them to deliver something else in the line. For all we know, something we really enjoy about the DX line is due to that very thing.

 

Not really sure why it's somehow relevant, but yes, yes I know much about designs and stuff. It's part of my day job since I work with artists, marketers, and engineers. 

I think you're just projecting now on a tangent now, tho.

Gluing up a part with moulded details to hide it?

What other plausible explanation other than they didn't design the cover properly to secure and detach properly?

 

 

[mantisfists]

5 hours ago, sqidd said:

IMO the DX looks "tougher". And you can pull of much more expressive poses than the Yamato's (bottom pic).

I don't think there's any denying the Bandai has WAY more poseability than the Yamato.  I don't think that's even close. I agree with you on the mean look of the Bandai as well, though, I think the adjustable head lasers have a great deal to do with that.  I also love all the tampo (hahaha!!!  auto correct keeps wanting to change tampo to tamponed) on the Bandai.  Look, you're talking typing conversing with a guy who's saying all of this while still staying awake until 3am for the last 2 weeks trying to get his hands on one more SSP at a reasonable price from Mandarake.  My issues with consistent logic are real (which is why I've never lost an argument.....no wait, that's my wife). I do think that one of the reasons I'm not as high on the Bandai is I hate the glossier look to it. I also really like the color of the fast packs on the Yamato way more than what Bandai went with. Other than that, I can't really explain it.

3 hours ago, lavinrac said:

I gotta just weigh in a tiny bit. My yamato 1/60 is fine, but my 1/48ths are yellowed, they don't weigh enough so they feel -untoylike. and the arms are too skinny. 

I'd replace them all with Bandai's, they were good for the time. metal swing bar on the legs was best on the Yamato 1/48. The bar on the 1/60 took an engineering degree to transform, and the one on the Bandai pops off every transformation. that's cheating, skirting around the prefect transformation issue.

 

I think Bandai went with that swing bar that they did to enable people to use the swiveling hip feature they included.  The compromise there being perfect transformation still being possible, just more.....fragile. So, I don't know if I'd call it cheating, as they didn't do it to avoid perfect transformation, they did it to include added articulation. Personally, I love the option, even if I wouldn't/don't use it. 

1 hour ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

Yup, design is an interesting beast. To me, the SSPs of the Yammies are simply a matter of design creep. Most of it is so unnecessary. And honestly, how often does anyone here actually use it? What, like maybe one Valk armed with SSPs that show the inside for a photo or one for display? If I'm Bandai, I realized that early on and put my design dollars somewhere else.

The fact is this: Most of you own the SSPs from Bandai if you own them from Yamato 1/48s. What does Bandai care as long as you're buying them? What tips the scale is if the lack of design means you won't buy them. Otherwise, they deemed another feature more important and placed resources on that priority.

It's not a matter of not being able to design something vastly improved over Yamato; it's a matter of weighing the investment against return on investment based on budget.

I'm not a design engineer, but I don't agree with this at all.  I could be (and probably am) wrong, but I think that if Bandai were looking at every feature and weighing the investment vs return, they could've removed a lot of the features.  How many people use the articulation in the FP boosters?  Would anybody have cared or noticed if they hadn't added the extra joint in the FP cannon to allow it to aim lower? Or who wouldn't buy the DX line if they'd removed the functioning air brake? My point is, it's the accumulation of these little details that (to me, at least) make items like this so enjoyable....and people like features, even if they never use them.  Shoot, Elon Musk made the windows for his new truck frickin bullet proof.  When asked why, he said "Who wouldn't want their windows to be bulletproof?".  Funny thing is, a lot of the people who would buy that truck would probably brag to their friends about their bulletproof windows, even though they'll (hopefully) never need them, even though the cost of that bulletproof glass definitely went into the truck.  I think, if anything, Bandai, and other companies, know this....especially in the toy industry.  That's why they're packed with as many options as they can cram in(removable fuel cells in the MOSPEADA ride armors, anyone?), because they know they can charge a premium price for them. I think that's their return on investment.  They know the people and market who would be targeted with these products would pay for more, not less, features.  

*edit* I don't know anything about toy design and engineering.  I break things, not build things, for a living, so the creative process for me is an unknown but fascinating process.  Please don't take anything I've said as an insinuation that you don't know what you're talking about or that you're wrong.  Probably, it's the opposite.  I'm just saying what seems logical to me in my primitive brain.  By all means, I'd love to learn about anything that goes into making these types of things.  I guess my point is, please don't take my disagreement or ignorance in the subject as an insult or attack.  

Edited October 7, 2020 by mantisfists

[DYRL VF-1S]

17 minutes ago, treatment said:

Gluing up a part with moulded details to hide it?

What other plausible explanation other than they didn't design the cover properly to secure and detach properly?

I find it to be a simple explanation - they already had the molds when they ditched the design for whatever fiscal reason they decided to ditch it for. They didn't complete the design. It didn't make sense to create new molds nor to offer a fully functional SSP that exposed the parts. That's my best guess. But that's where my expertise/educated guess ends because we just don't have all of the details available to us, ya know?

I got nothing but Macross love for ya Treatment, but if you aggressively challenge my opinion, I'll aggressively defend it. No tangents going on here - just discussion.

Edited October 7, 2020 by DYRL VF-1S

[Paco Grande]

3 hours ago, sqidd said:

Have you considered that maybe you aren't doing it right? I've never had one pop off.

I only have two DX VF-1s but on mine for some reason (most likely tolerance variance) the Hikaru VF-1S has never popped open but my Kaki 1A pops open every single time and it's incredibly annoying. I usually just let it happen now, transform in two halves and then re-assemble at the end. So I believe you have been smiled upon by the injection molding tolerance gods. 

I've seriously considered gluing that clip on my Kaki because I don't care about waist swivel. 

[DYRL VF-1S]

18 minutes ago, mantisfists said:

'm not a design engineer, but I don't agree with this at all.  I could be (and probably am) wrong, but I think that if Bandai were looking at every feature and weighing the investment vs return, they could've removed a lot of the features.

 

18 minutes ago, mantisfists said:

They know the people and market who would be targeted with these products would pay for more, not less, features.

I respect your opinion on this and appreciate your approach to the topic. I know it might seem counterproductive but I think a good way to explain it is the old adage "less is more." Most design goes through a process that includes understanding your target audience (as well as outside of your audience,) and then streamlining the design to meet budgetary restrictions or needs. Trust me, most products or even intangibles such as software could have waaaay more features than do. It's not a design limitation but a balance of not over complicating the experience and keeping with budget.

"Feature creep" is a term used to describe how some designers stack on incremental features to improve a design and in turn over complicating the experience. I personally feel like this is what Yamato did with their SSPs. Are they cool? Sure, to look at once. I never use them though. It seems to me that Bandai thought it unnecessary even if it meant losing a cool factor.

Bandai proved they could design the SSPs in a similar fashion as Yamato when they displayed prototype drawings, etc. before the DX 1J released. They decided not to move forward with it for whatever reason. I'm just explaining why that action doesn't surprise me. And my logic is in the proof that people are still buying the SSPs.

Edited October 7, 2020 by DYRL VF-1S

[treatment]

6 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

I find it to be a simple explanation - they already had the molds when they ditched the design for whatever fiscal reason they decided to ditch it for. It didn't make sense to create new molds nor to offer a fully functional SSP that exposed the parts. That's my best guess. But that's where my expertise/educated guess ends because we just don't have all of the details available to us, ya know?

I got nothing but Macross love for ya Treatment, but if you aggressively challenge my opinion, I'll aggressively defend it. No tangents going on here - just discussion.

That's what discussions are all about.

We all challenge everyone's views and if there is something amiss.

Even tho I knew you were talking about feature-creep instead, I still took you up on the design thing since that is what the recent interesting discussions about the leg-FPs was all about. 

What was Bandai thinking when they glued up the leg-FPs?

Some factory guy messed up and so they juust roll with it?  

Or did their design really somehow just didn't work?

I mean, Bandai does have a reputation of over-engineering and over-designing rather simple stuff.

The YF-19 stabilzers, the symmetry stuff, etc, etc.

:shrugs:

 

 

[DYRL VF-1S]

2 minutes ago, treatment said:

That's what discussions are all about.

We all challenge everyone's views and if there is something amiss.

Even tho I knew you were talking about feature-creep instead, I still took you up on the design thing since that is what the recent interesting discussions about the leg-FPs was all about. 

What was Bandai thinking when they glued up the leg-FPs?

Some factory guy messed up and so they juust roll with it?  

Or did their design really somehow just didn't work?

I mean, Bandai does have a reputation of over-engineering and over-designing rather simple stuff.

The YF-19 stabilzers, the symmetry stuff, etc, etc.

:shrugs:

 

 

Haha I'm with ya! I don't disagree with any of that.

For all we know, the Macross DX line gets all the "early in career" designers who cut their teeth on it. We all know that other lines bring in the bucks for them like Gundam and DBZ, etc. We're over here trying to decode intent and design when it really could be F'ups to your point LOL.

[sqidd]

1 hour ago, Lolicon said:

All TV valks have the UN Spacy kite. The skull insignia FPs are DYRL only.

[sqidd]

35 minutes ago, treatment said:

 

Not really sure why it's somehow relevant, but yes, yes I know much about designs and stuff. It's part of my day job since I work with artists, marketers, and engineers. 

I think you're just projecting now on a tangent now, tho.

Gluing up a part with moulded details to hide it?

What other plausible explanation other than they didn't design the cover properly to secure and detach properly?

 

 

I can think of 10 right off the top of my head. I understand the intricacies of design and production though. And the million things that can go wrong.

Here is an example:

The design works/worked in prototype and small scale production. It then goes to the subcontractor that is mass producing them and they have sloppy tolerances. The covers no longer stay on. Bandai decides to either have them glue the covers on or glued them on themselves before they were shipped. That is a business/budget decision. In this case they would have decided that timing and cost trumped the feature. It has nothing to do with ability or desire.

[Grey728]

I'd hazard a guess that someone forgot to release the design mold for the engine detail under kite/before the missile pods section in time or it simply didn't fit or work with the strike part. That area is completely empty. Oops! Why show off engine detail if that entire piece is completely missing? In the interest of keeping up with production schedules they just decided to glue it all together.

[sqidd]

From a business perspective I think I can sum up what Bandai was thinking with the SSP's.

Did you buy Bandai SSP's? See where I'm going there? Solid business decision for Bandai. They are a for profit company. Not our buddies, not or friends, not looking out for our best interest, not doing it for the "love of the game", etc. I can assure you that a very, very small percentage of Bandai employees are toy fans. They may have been at one time, but doing something for a living has a habit of killing it as a love. I'm a perfect example. I'm in the fast car business. I used to LOVE fast cars. I've always had them. Now I don't want anything to do with them. I think what people aren't understanding about what Bandai does or doesn't is because they are looking at it from only the perspective of a fan.

I'm not suggesting that what Bandai does or doesn't do is right or wrong. What they do or don't do just "is".

 

 

 

 

[sqidd]

13 minutes ago, Grey728 said:

I'd hazard a guess that someone forgot to release the design mold for the engine detail under kite/before the missile pods section in time or it simply didn't fit or work with the strike part. That area is completely empty. Oops! Why show off engine detail if that entire piece is completely missing? In the interest of keeping up with production schedules they just decided to glue it all together.

Highly plausible. 

[Slave IV]

I'll throw in another point...SSP shortage. Could this have anything to do with it?

[Sanity is Optional]

28 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

I'll throw in another point...SSP shortage. Could this have anything to do with it?

Extremely unlikely.

First off, Bandai molds their parts on a runner, so long as there was any other part on the runner besides just the interior detail they'd have to mold up the entire runner anyway. Looking at the P-Bandai gunpla kits there's a huge number of spare parts because re-using runners is cheaper than saving plastic.

Secondly, it really doesn't take long to actually run off parts via injection molding. It's fast+cheap on a per part basis, the issue is the overhead time+cost to make and test the molds.

[jenius]

The detail under the cover is pretty weak... A half hearted effort at best. It probably has to be separate parts anyway and that level of unpainted detail probably didn't impact cost so maybe it's more of a "why not?" Than anything else.

[sqidd]

I wonder if Bandai made the choice to glue the leg armor covers on at the last minute and that prompted them to not include anything inside the boosters. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were prototype booster guts floating around Bandai.

[mantisfists]

2 hours ago, sqidd said:

I can think of 10 right off the top of my head. I understand the intricacies of design and production though. And the million things that can go wrong.

Here is an example:

The design works/worked in prototype and small scale production. It then goes to the subcontractor that is mass producing them and they have sloppy tolerances. The covers no longer stay on. Bandai decides to either have them glue the covers on or glued them on themselves before they were shipped. That is a business/budget decision. In this case they would have decided that timing and cost trumped the feature. It has nothing to do with ability or desire.

 

2 hours ago, Grey728 said:

I'd hazard a guess that someone forgot to release the design mold for the engine detail under kite/before the missile pods section in time or it simply didn't fit or work with the strike part. That area is completely empty. Oops! Why show off engine detail if that entire piece is completely missing? In the interest of keeping up with production schedules they just decided to glue it all together.

These two make perfect sense to me as to why they would abandon the idea of engine and leg panel detail.  It would have been cool to have it, but I could see how hiccups like these could nix those features.  I actually learned something today.  Now, what was my daughter's name again......

Edited October 7, 2020 by mantisfists

[Slave IV]

End of day, I'm with @DYRL VF-1S I don't care about interior details. I have plenty of Yamato 1/48 and V2 1/60s that have the details and I display a total of one out of all of those with just one side visible using clear covers as a novelty. Other than that, I never even bother taking any panels off to look inside.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Well I like to display one VF-1 with the inner details visible. But just one from each scale. And only in fighter mode.

So when I get my DX Strike Parts from AE, I'll pry the leg packs covers off and paint the fuel tanks.

What really bothers me is the "half engine" detail. I can't come up with any logical reason for that 

 

[Convectuoso]

Found this awesome custom on Instagram

 

 

[nightmareB4macross]

22 minutes ago, Convectuoso said:

Found this awesome custom on Instagram

 

 

Hot Damn!!! That’s NNNIIIIIICE!!!

[RedComet]

33 minutes ago, Convectuoso said:

Found this awesome custom on Instagram

 

 

Hope he also made a green 1J, or that is an EXPENSIVE non-cannon Hikaru 

[spanner]

Thats very cool! I would have preferred a TV 1A style head but either way it's looks great.

[seti88]

Thats a nice custom vf-1A CF!  

[Lolicon]

6 hours ago, Ignacio Ocamica said:

Well I like to display one VF-1 with the inner details visible. But just one from each scale. And only in fighter mode.

So when I get my DX Strike Parts from AE, I'll pry the leg packs covers off and paint the fuel tanks.

What really bothers me is the "half engine" detail. I can't come up with any logical reason for that 

 

Because Bandai "half-assed" the SSPs when they could easily have given us something at least on par with Yamato, if not better.

Whether or not one cares about the inner details is irrelevant to that point and certainly not something one should be high-roading others on.

[Jetreo]

8 hours ago, RedComet said:

Hope he also made a green 1J, or that is an EXPENSIVE non-cannon Hikaru 

I believe the guy just switched the 1J head with the 1A Kaki head and then photoshopped the red bits.

Fyi, you can switch the 1J and 1A heads but not with the 1S as the neck part of the 1S is different. 

[sqidd]

1 hour ago, Jetreo said:

I believe the guy just switched the 1J head with the 1A Kaki head and then photoshopped the red bits.

Fyi, you can switch the 1J and 1A heads but not with the 1S as the neck part of the 1S is different. 

Can you remove the head, neck and "neck plate" and switch them?

@RedComet?

[Anasazi37]

2 hours ago, sqidd said:

Can you remove the head, neck and "neck plate" and switch them?

@RedComet?

Theoretically, yes. The head and neck are mounted on a black plastic piece that slides into the back of the nosecone section. It is not easy to pull out or reinstall, but it can be done. I'm assuming that the black mounting piece is interchangeable between the different variants.

[sqidd]

50 minutes ago, Anasazi37 said:

Theoretically, yes. The head and neck are mounted on a black plastic piece that slides into the back of the nosecone section. It is not easy to pull out or reinstall, but it can be done. I'm assuming that the black mounting piece is interchangeable between the different variants.

That's not confidence inspiring.

RedComet and I were planning some customs that require head swaps.

[RedComet]

By the looks of it, the plate appears to be attached via a single screw. It also appears to be that way in the LEK video (6:19 mark). Are people saying the plate itself differs between 1S and 1A?

 

[vlenhoff]

On 10/5/2020 at 10:27 PM, borgified said:

You mean Dr.Wu hands for the MP right @vlenhoff?

Can you use the Gundam hands for the 1/48 chicken option (or its it too heavy and bulky). Someone used it on their copy of Studio OX Azalea on TFW2005 and had to repaint it to colour match correctly. 

Not too bad looking, however it looked really weird. 

Yes, the Dr. Wu ones.

Maybe i can ask @sqidd to lend me that 3d file...