Duke Togo Posted September 26, 2022 Posted September 26, 2022 On 9/26/2022 at 6:31 PM, technoblue said: That's a good question. If the license restrictions are limited to words like Hobbits and such, I don't see that holding the series back too much. If it includes characters and places on Tolkien's map of Arda (his fantasy world), then that could get sticky. So far, the first age references have been solid, even though Amazon's creative team has added their own non-canon flourishes here and there. Expand They can pull from The Hobbit, The LotR, and all of the included appendices. Which, is actually a good amount of information. But if it’s only in The Simarillion, it’s off limits. Quote
azrael Posted September 26, 2022 Posted September 26, 2022 On 9/26/2022 at 6:41 PM, Duke Togo said: They can pull from The Hobbit, The LotR, and all of the included appendices. Which, is actually a good amount of information. But if it’s only in The Simarillion, it’s off limits. Expand IIRC, there's a bit more to the Elves coming from Valinor to Middle-Earth that was not covered/glossed over in the show. That would be an example of where the licensing restrictions come in. Quote
technoblue Posted September 26, 2022 Posted September 26, 2022 On 9/26/2022 at 6:41 PM, Duke Togo said: They can pull from The Hobbit, The LotR, and all of the included appendices. Which, is actually a good amount of information. But if it’s only in The Simarillion, it’s off limits. Expand On 9/26/2022 at 6:46 PM, azrael said: IIRC, there's a bit more to the Elves coming from Valinor to Middle-Earth that was not covered/glossed over in the show. That would be an example of where the licensing restrictions come in. Expand Okay. Tricksy it is, then. This explains the creative license given to things in the Elvish history that have been referenced so far in the show. That bit about the one Silmaril being a stand out --Huh?-- moment for me. But now I get it. Quote
Dobber Posted September 26, 2022 Posted September 26, 2022 (edited) A good example of the restriction that can really be seen in the show is the destruction of the 2 trees. Morgoth/Melkor and his partner Ungoliant (GIANT Spider Demon and ancestor of Shelob) destroyed them. Well really Ungoliant did at Morgoth/Melkors bidding. In the show there is no mention of or visual of a Ginormous Spider that literally drains the trees of their light by feeding on them. In fact the power of the trees makes Ungoliant so large and powerful that she demands the Silmirils from Melkor and then tries to feed on him. She almost succeeded too and Melkor only escaped because he cried out for his Balrogs and dragons to save him! It is unknown as to the fate of Ungoliant. Ungoliant is only ever mentioned in the Silmirilian. Chris Edited September 26, 2022 by Dobber Quote
Thom Posted September 27, 2022 Posted September 27, 2022 (edited) I've been liking it a lot, even with a slower pace. At fifty episodes, they can't dump everything in the first five. Build the story up so we see what the stakes are for people, how much they are putting on the line and how much they don't want to risk. And how much they are eventually going to lose. I like how they folded the mithril in with the Balrog, and how much of it is needed in order to save the elves from... old age... I'm assuming this would then be the same Balrog that shows up in LoTR. For Isildur, he's young guy trying to find his direction. No one springs from the womb being exactly who they are from legend. I think he'll find his way once they reach Middle Earth and Mordor, I mean the Southlands. As for Galdrial and her armor, it is different than the armor from the first few episodes. I just assumed they had some lying about from the old days. They did go the west of Numenor, where the elves are still revered. Here she is in her in the original armor, just before they get on the ship And the second set of armor she got from Numenor, Have to say, I do like the second set better than the first. It 'looks' more elvish. And, it had some design cues with her brother's armor, making me think it is an older set that was gifted to her. Such as what I assume is the Evenstar on the chest piece. Edited September 28, 2022 by Thom Quote
Dobber Posted September 27, 2022 Posted September 27, 2022 Well I stand corrected then. 🙂 Chris Quote
technoblue Posted September 27, 2022 Posted September 27, 2022 On 9/27/2022 at 10:57 PM, Dobber said: Well I stand corrected then. 🙂 Chris Expand HaHa. Same. Quote
jvmacross Posted September 27, 2022 Author Posted September 27, 2022 (edited) Is the whole story about the elves needing mithril to survive part of Tolkien's original writings? Aren't they immortal or at minimum, able to travel to the undying lands? Also, where is Galadriel's husband? Are they not married during the time depicted in this show? Edited September 27, 2022 by jvmacross Quote
Thom Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) On 9/27/2022 at 11:46 PM, jvmacross said: Is the whole story about the elves needing mithril to survive part of Tolkien's original writings? Aren't they immortal or at minimum, able to travel to the undying lands? Also, where is Galadriel's husband? Are they not married during the time depicted in this show? Expand Yes and no. If you are expecting the show to follow Tolkien's canon on Middle Earth, you're going to end up being confused. As I understand it, Amazon only has licensing for 'bits'n'pieces' of Middle Earth-verse, so it is best to take this as a fan-fiction version of the history before the Hobbit. Which would explain the condensing of much of the timeline, from hundreds of years to only a few and a mix/match approach using the events of the First and Second Ages. And since this is supposed to be leading up to Jackson's movies, I assume she will be meeting up with Celeborn at some point. As to mithril, that I don't know. I never heard it being as any more than a unique metal, though I am liking the yarn they are starting to spin with it. Edited September 28, 2022 by Thom Quote
Big s Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 I think the Mythril thing is something just for the show. Quote
technoblue Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 On 9/27/2022 at 11:46 PM, jvmacross said: Is the whole story about the elves needing mithril to survive part of Tolkien's original writings? Aren't they immortal or at minimum, able to travel to the undying lands? Also, where is Galadriel's husband? Are they not married during the time depicted in this show? Expand Here are the facts that Amazon left intact concerning mithril: * There is a large source of it in the Dwarven mines of Khazad-Dum. * The Elves value it as a precious metal and they end up trading with the Dwarves and using the metal to accessorize. In the books, Mithril does not contain the essence of the two trees or any other Silmaril-like power. It is simply another fancy metal like gold and silver, but much rarer than these and with its own Tolkien-esque qualities to make it sought after. The Elves use it most often for clothing, utensils, and jewelry. For instance, the Mithril chain that Bilbo finds and gives to Frodo is thought to have been a shirt originally worn by an Elven prince. It had no special magical power but the shirt protected the wearer from all slashing, slicing, and piercing damage. In that respect then, it eventually became a highly valued shirt of armour. You also ask a good question about Celeborn. He and Galadriel do end up leading the Elves in Lothlorien, and he shoukdn’t be an unknown Elf during this period, so I am hoping that Amazon is saving their own creative take on how things happen for later. I’m curious to see how they get all the canon and non-canon plots to synchronize and work together. Quote
Dobber Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 On 9/28/2022 at 12:49 AM, Thom said: Yes and no. If you are expecting the show to follow Tolkien's canon on Middle Earth, you're going to end up being confused. As I understand it, Amazon only has licensing for 'bits'n'pieces' of Middle Earth-verse, so it is best to take this as a fan-fiction version of the history before the Hobbit. Which would explain the condensing of much of the timeline, from hundreds of years to only a few and a mix/match approach using the events of the First and Second Ages. And since this is supposed to be leading up to Jackson's movies, I assume she will be meeting up with Celeborn at some point. As to mithril, that I don't know. I never heard it being as any more than a unique metal, though I am liking the yarn they are starting to spin with it. Expand Are you sure about this show leading up to Jackson’s movies? I could’ve swore I heard this has nothing to do with Jackson’s films and is it’s own thing. Chris Quote
Big s Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) On 9/28/2022 at 9:08 PM, Dobber said: Are you sure about this show leading up to Jackson’s movies? I could’ve swore I heard this has nothing to do with Jackson’s films and is it’s own thing. Chris Expand It may be its own thing, but the story would lead somewhat towards the events shown to have happened where the ring was taken from Sauron’s hand and he’d lost his physical form, that were basically the flashbacks in Lord of the Rings. It may even touch on other things that were mentioned to have happened in the past like the oathbreakers. A lot of that was in the books, but also mentioned in the film. The mythril thing in the show already feels different from the movies. I don’t know all in all what similarities and differences there are, but it seems different enough to be its own show that’s not connected to either the books or films other than basic ideas Edited September 28, 2022 by Big s . Quote
Thom Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 On 9/28/2022 at 9:08 PM, Dobber said: Are you sure about this show leading up to Jackson’s movies? I could’ve swore I heard this has nothing to do with Jackson’s films and is it’s own thing. Chris Expand Not too terribly. I'm assuming it'll keep to the high points as alluded to in FoTR. As to mithril being worn as jewelry by the elves, that is another way that what they are doing on TRoP could obliquely tie into. In RoTK, Arwen's necklace falls and shatters when she decides to remain on Middle Earth. If that was mithril, infused with the light of the Valar or a Simaril, then that could be her losing it's protection upon her soul. In effect, choosing mortality. (Not an explanation for what she used for protection while Aragon held the necklace.) Quote
Dobber Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 I get that EVENTS are the same because it is what LOTR is, but Jackson’s movies had their own look and took liberties with his interpretation as well. For example. Isildur didn’t defeat Sauron. His Father and the Elvin King did and they died in the process. Isildur just cut the ring from Sauron’s hand. Quote
azrael Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 This show takes place so far back, anything it does could lead up to Jackson's films. The Hobbit takes place just shy of 3000 years into the Third Age. Judging by some plot elements, this show takes place somewhere in the tail-end of the Second Age, which is still...300 years left to go (assuming they can follow the Tolkein timeline). Quote
Big s Posted September 30, 2022 Posted September 30, 2022 Well, stuff finally happens and more stuff happens and things just keep happening all the way to the end. It’s like they saved all the stuff happening for this episode and there’s still more episodes. The thing I’m most curious about is how Galadriel eats. It’s like her top teeth just can’t clear her bottom lip no matter what’s going on. Overall a pretty good episode this week. Even with all the action it still had time to touch on the plot a bit more. And there’s definitely some interesting developments to look forward to Quote
Dobber Posted September 30, 2022 Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) After the snooze fest from last week this weeks episode is back with a vengeance! Reveal hidden contents Did we just see the formation of Mt. Doom!? More certain than ever that Halbrand is Sauron. In fact I think when Adar was talking to Galadriel about Sauron, he was describing the “wrong” he asked Halbrand of. I think Halbrand’s hatred was likely genuine due to said wronging and was also checking to see if Adar recognized him so he could keep his cover. That’s my theory at least. Chris Edited September 30, 2022 by Dobber Quote
Big s Posted September 30, 2022 Posted September 30, 2022 On 9/30/2022 at 4:54 PM, Dobber said: After the snooze fest from last week this weeks episode is back with a vengeance! Reveal hidden contents Did we just see the formation of Mt. Doom!? More certain than ever that Halbrand is Sauron. In fact I think Adar described the “wrong” he did to Halbrand when he was talking to Galadriel about Sauron. Halbrand hatred was likely genuine. That’s my theory at least. Chris Expand Reveal hidden contents When the fallen elf talks about how he basically did the deed, and when Halbrand is referred to as the true king of the south land, it seems to pretty much cement the theory that he is Sauron. But it does also feel a bit too obvious. I’m leaning 75% for him ,20% the meteor man and 5% one of those weirdo’s looking for meteor man Quote
azrael Posted September 30, 2022 Posted September 30, 2022 Yeah, I'm not sure what is with this season's shows having such boring starts. At least this week, we are getting somewhere. Quote
Dobber Posted September 30, 2022 Posted September 30, 2022 On 9/30/2022 at 5:10 PM, Big s said: Reveal hidden contents When the fallen elf talks about how he basically did the deed, and when Halbrand is referred to as the true king of the south land, it seems to pretty much cement the theory that he is Sauron. But it does also feel a bit too obvious. I’m leaning 75% for him ,20% the meteor man and 5% one of those weirdo’s looking for meteor man Expand I edited my original spoiler to explain myself a little better, bit you seemed to have understood me. 😎 Chris Quote
Duke Togo Posted September 30, 2022 Posted September 30, 2022 I have thoughts/questions about this episode, but I think I’m just going to sit on them. Quote
technoblue Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 I got caught up with episode 6 today. Very cool, although I do have questions/nitpicks... Reveal hidden contents So Arondir hides the magic sword/key in the tavern under a loose brick. How did Theo know it was there? More importantly, did the Grumpy Tavern Guy know too? When was the switcheroo made with the hatchet? Was it after 'Lord Father' the fallen elf got the broken sword back? That timeline of events was confusing to me and, since it results in a big bang at the end of the episode, I wish it all gelled some more. The Numenor cavalry gives a good nod to the Riders of Rohan (from the third age) I think and I am enjoying all the character moments, even with the faults that are built up for dramatic effect. The pacing is still something of a roller coaster for me, though. Earlier, we got to see things trundled out in a casual manner over five episodes. Now we have what seems like a time jump with the Numenor cavalry teleporting from their landing site into the valley. Man, I can feel the whiplash. Yeah, Halbrand is looking more sus this episode. I'm hesitating to say with certainty that big bang is Mount Doom, but I guess it could be. In the canon mythology, Mount Doom has been around since the first age. Melkor/Morgoth created the volcano. If this is that volcano, Amazon could be adding to their alternate timeline again. In Tolkien's written work, Sauron's one ring was forged earlier in the second age before he used Mount Doom to signal his attack on Gondor. This happens thousands of years later in the second age. In the show, even with some of the non-canon happenings, it still feels early for these events. I mean, we haven't even seen Isildur's brother on screen, Numenor is still above sea level, and Gondor isn't a place on the map. If it is another volcano, I guess this could have been a test Sauron put in place to see if he could still tempt men to his side. In that case, it looks like the test was a complete success. Quote
Dobber Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 (edited) On 10/3/2022 at 6:44 AM, technoblue said: I got caught up with episode 6 today. Very cool, although I do have questions/nitpicks... Reveal hidden contents So Arondir hides the magic sword/key in the tavern under a loose brick. How did Theo know it was there? More importantly, did the Grumpy Tavern Guy know too? When was the switcheroo made with the hatchet? Was it after 'Lord Father' the fallen elf got the broken sword back? That timeline of events was confusing to me and, since it results in a big bang at the end of the episode, I wish it all gelled some more. The Numenor cavalry gives a good nod to the Riders of Rohan (from the third age) I think and I am enjoying all the character moments, even with the faults that are built up for dramatic effect. The pacing is still something of a roller coaster for me, though. Earlier, we got to see things trundled out in a casual manner over five episodes. Now we have what seems like a time jump with the Numenor cavalry teleporting from their landing site into the valley. Man, I can feel the whiplash. Yeah, Halbrand is looking more sus this episode. I'm hesitating to say with certainty that big bang is Mount Doom, but I guess it could be. In the canon mythology, Mount Doom has been around since the first age. Melkor/Morgoth created the volcano. If this is that volcano, Amazon could be adding to their alternate timeline again. In Tolkien's written work, Sauron's one ring was forged earlier in the second age before he used Mount Doom to signal his attack on Gondor. This happens thousands of years later in the second age. In the show, even with some of the non-canon happenings, it still feels early for these events. I mean, we haven't even seen Isildur's brother on screen, Numenor is still above sea level, and Gondor isn't a place on the map. If it is another volcano, I guess this could have been a test Sauron put in place to see if he could still tempt men to his side. In that case, it looks like the test was a complete success. Expand To answer a couple of you questions. Adar gave the hilt to the Grumpy Tavern guy right when the Numenorians show up. He walked outside and summoned him and told him he had a task for him. Like you said, Amazon is playing fast and lose with Middle Earth History so I look at Mt Doom being formed now as a sort of Echo of Calabrimbor making his forge with the Dwarves so Sauron is making his own with the Volcano. Setting up the infrastructure to creat the Rings of Power if you will. Chris Edited October 3, 2022 by Dobber Quote
azrael Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 On 10/3/2022 at 6:44 AM, technoblue said: I got caught up with episode 6 today. Very cool, although I do have questions/nitpicks... Reveal hidden contents I'm hesitating to say with certainty that big bang is Mount Doom, but I guess it could be. In the canon mythology, Mount Doom has been around since the first age. Melkor/Morgoth created the volcano. If this is that volcano, Amazon could be adding to their alternate timeline again. In Tolkien's written work, Sauron's one ring was forged earlier in the second age before he used Mount Doom to signal his attack on Gondor. This happens thousands of years later in the second age. In the show, even with some of the non-canon happenings, it still feels early for these events. I mean, we haven't even seen Isildur's brother on screen, Numenor is still above sea level, and Gondor isn't a place on the map. If it is another volcano, I guess this could have been a test Sauron put in place to see if he could still tempt men to his side. In that case, it looks like the test was a complete success. Expand Well from the looks of it... Reveal hidden contents The volcano appeared to be in a dormant state. So it's not like it wasn't there, it just wasn't active. Quote
technoblue Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 On 10/3/2022 at 10:45 AM, Dobber said: To answer a couple of you questions. Adar gave the hilt to the Grumpy Tavern guy right when the Numenorians show up. He walked outside and summoned him and told him he had a task for him. Like you said, Amazon is playing fast and lose with Middle Earth History so I look at Mt Doom being formed now as a sort of Echo of Calabrimbor making his forge with the Dwarves so Sauron is making his own with the Volcano. Setting up the infrastructure to creat the Rings of Power if you will. Chris Expand Right. I was unsure of the order of events by the end of the episode. I thought Adar had the conversation when his army first arrived at the watchtower and he noticed the inscription on the wall. I then thought the scene where Arondir was trying to damage/destroy the sword in town came after that moment and so things got muddled. A mix-up on my part, most assuredly. On 10/3/2022 at 3:08 PM, azrael said: Well from the looks of it... Reveal hidden contents The volcano appeared to be in a dormant state. So it's not like it wasn't there, it just wasn't active. Expand Indeed. I’m okay with it being there but I find it curious, if it is that volcano, why the creative team decided to use it as an offensive strike this early. I’m not against the creative license, but I like seeing how this show gives context for its non-canon events, especially if that context can pull me deeper into the show’s current events. Quote
Thom Posted October 4, 2022 Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) On 9/30/2022 at 4:54 PM, Dobber said: After the snooze fest from last week this weeks episode is back with a vengeance! Reveal hidden contents Did we just see the formation of Mt. Doom!? More certain than ever that Halbrand is Sauron. In fact I think when Adar was talking to Galadriel about Sauron, he was describing the “wrong” he asked Halbrand of. I think Halbrand’s hatred was likely genuine due to said wronging and was also checking to see if Adar recognized him so he could keep his cover. That’s my theory at least. Chris Expand I think you are right in that, and will go a step further and... Reveal hidden contents ...wonder if Halbrand (if he is Sauron) perhaps doesn't fully remember who he was, or is. It's even possible that the reason he was running from the Southlands to Neumenor was to 'escape' his own destiny. His own identity of self could have been 'muddled' after Adar killed him, and he could start coming back to himself now. A possibility anyway. As to the culmination of the episode, I will say that I was starting to be a bit disappointed.... Reveal hidden contents ...with the hilt and its purpose. A key? Alright, a key to open the flood gates and drown out the whole valley? Okay, I guess. But then we see why they were digging all those channels and tunnels, to basically set off a hydro-thermal bomb under the dormant volcano.😲 And boom, there's Mount Doom!! I'm thinking Adar was working for Sauron and this was Sauron's plan to make a Mordor for himself. But Adar, wanting his 'children' to be free, killed Sauron (or thought he did) but still carried out the plan to give the Southlands as a gift to the Orcs. But with Sauron not being dead, he basically just did what Sauron wanted anyway. Dupid Adar! And now we'll get to see who survived that pyroclastic flow?! Edited October 4, 2022 by Thom Quote
Big s Posted October 4, 2022 Posted October 4, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 7:15 PM, Thom said: And now we'll get to see who survived that pyroclastic flow?! Expand Reveal hidden contents The preview showed Galadriel easily survived by just standing in the way of searing hot gas like it had no effect on her. I get the feeling most survived what should have incinerated them all. Quote
Thom Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) On 10/4/2022 at 10:05 PM, Big s said: Reveal hidden contents The preview showed Galadriel easily survived by just standing in the way of searing hot gas like it had no effect on her. I get the feeling most survived what should have incinerated them all. Expand Reveal hidden contents I can see Galadrial and the elves, as they can withstand some harsh extremes, but most of the humans, except for our leads, should be not so much. I'm sure they found some way though. Edited October 5, 2022 by Thom Quote
technoblue Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 On 10/5/2022 at 1:23 PM, Thom said: Reveal hidden contents I can see Galadrial and the elves, as they can withstand some harsh extremes, but most of the humans, except for our leads, should be not so much. I'm sure they found some way though. Expand Well, not to beat around the bush, but... Reveal hidden contents This has already been covered by those of us in the thread who are book nerds. The elves from Valinor and the humans from Numenor do have traits that help them. Trying to apply real-world logic to these two groups is only going to get one frustrated. I mean, they just about flew on horseback from the coastal bays to the inland mountain ranges to rescue the embattled Southlanders, so there are fantasy rules at play already. If any of the people are fragile and delicate like those of us in the real-world, I would expect them to be born and raised in Middle Earth itself. Besides, Middle Earth was supposed to be an analogue for our world. Quote
Big s Posted October 9, 2022 Posted October 9, 2022 Reveal hidden contents A slow episode again. It’s kind of expected after the last one. Lots of people basically down over loss and injury. The non hobbits were mostly fluff as usual. And the dwarves are still deciding what to do. I kinda hoped things story wise would have moved forward, but they mostly kinda stalled in this episode. Quote
kalvasflam Posted October 9, 2022 Posted October 9, 2022 can't wait until the season is over so I can binge watch this stuff.... although from the sounds of it, it might be a bit difficult to stomach all at one go. Quote
Big s Posted October 10, 2022 Posted October 10, 2022 On 10/9/2022 at 9:55 PM, kalvasflam said: can't wait until the season is over so I can binge watch this stuff.... although from the sounds of it, it might be a bit difficult to stomach all at one go. Expand It’s pretty slow most of the time. Maybe you should do an episode or two a day starting now and by Friday you’ll be ready for the last episode Quote
TangledThorns Posted October 10, 2022 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) On 10/9/2022 at 9:55 PM, kalvasflam said: can't wait until the season is over so I can binge watch this stuff.... although from the sounds of it, it might be a bit difficult to stomach all at one go. Expand Yeah, the episodes are long and there is a long build up that I hope pays off. Though I felt the same about Game of Thrones early in its first season too. That being said, as much money as Amazon put into Rings of Power (and it shows!) I still think THE BOYS is their top series imho. Edited October 10, 2022 by TangledThorns Quote
technoblue Posted October 10, 2022 Posted October 10, 2022 I caught this last episode early--on Friday last week--and I have a number of thoughts about it but I'm going to set most of them aside until after the season finale this week. ...okay, I will say this... Reveal hidden contents You guys were right about the sword/key subplot. It was all about waking Mount Doom and creating Mordor. I'm still a bit conflicted about the timing of it, although I have to admit the visuals were cool to watch, even the post-eruption chaos. It also appears that the Queen Regent's fate will sync with canon soon. Things for her, politically, are now uncertain after these events and that will create a power vacuum in Numenor. Galadriel finally mentions Celeborn too but it feels like a potential plot device, so I'm going to hold my tongue about what she said. Quote
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