Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Knight26]

8 hours ago, TehPW said:

(Yes, i understand that clevit that That info is highly suspect and now disproven)

 

I literally snorted hard at the notion of 22,000 People on the Prometheus. Then my mind started working on this...

 

Ok, let's play a game. Let's assume that the Ship's Company is 1/2 of that number (11,000)

Departments on the Prometheus:

1. Deck Department
2. Air Department
3. Engineering Department
4. Reactor Department
5. Supply Department
6. AIMD
7. Weapons Department
8. Combat Systems Department
9. Navigation Department

Maybe i'm missing something but that's the generics that i can think of. I cannot think of the exact composition of each department, in terms of how BM's in Deck, How many ABH's, ABE's or ABF's in Air, etc but by merely dividing 11k by 9 departments, you have get a command with over 1200 sailors per Department. I'll even make this thought process even worse

AIMD: Divisions

1. Maintenance Admin
2. Quality Assurance & Main Production Control
3. N/A
4. Power Plants
5. Airframes
6. Avionics
7. Weapons (repairs of weapon systems, not ordinance storage)
8. Paraloft (aka PR Shop)
9. GSE

Now each department has 1200 sailors. In this thought process, each Division in AIMD has 135 sailors. That's 45 sailors on Days, Nights and Mid shift ashore, 67 sailors on Day or Night shift underway. IN RL, a typical AIMD might have 1/2 of those numbers in total employment. I totally was giggles trying to imagine what morning muster would be like on the Prometheus with that many sailors (and that's not even mentioning The Airwing population. Clearly the 22,000 was a slight miscalculation of the numbers because all i could think of was how many folks would have to hot bunk in order to be able to sleep in their racks....?

Bonus giggles: Assuming 4 section Duty, each deployed combined Duty Section musters 5500 sailors. that's literally the norm # of sailors on a typical Nimitz-class...

 

 

 

 

Those numbers definitely seem off, time to break out the Crew Calculator.

 

[aurance]

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Daedalus and Prometheus are about twice as big as a Nimitz class (at least) and with considerably far more internal space. That said, I think that 2200 might be more appropriate given those dimensions.

Expanding on pengbuzz’s point, instead of whatever that weird crew calculation was, Nimitz is 333m long and has 6000 complement including air crew. Prometheus is 512m. Assuming same relative proportion on each side, its internal volume would be about 3.6x of the Nimitz. 3.6 x 6000 = 21600. So it works.

* Yes I know there are a lot of assumptions here nerds, just showing it’s plausible.

Edited January 30, 2022 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, aurance said:

Expanding on pengbuzz’s point, instead of whatever that weird crew calculation was, Nimitz is 333m long and has 6000 complement including air crew. Prometheus is 512m. Assuming same relative proportion on each side, its internal volume would be about 3.6x of the Nimitz. 3.6 x 6000 = 21600. So it works.

That, or something very like it, is probably the math that M.A.T. used when they wrote the original spec for Sky Angels.

Of course, when you think about it, it doesn't actually make sense for the size of the crew to scale linearly with the volume of the ship.  After all, even if the ship gets bigger there are a LOT of departments that really would not require or benefit from increased staffing.  The only areas it'd actually be 100% necessary would be the engine room, the carrier air wing (to support the greater number of aircraft), and the ship's mess.

Revised versions of the stats published in Variable Fighter Master File keep a shocking amount of the details I gave previously, but scale the crew and aircraft complements back to more reasonable numbers... 2,700 crew for the Prometheus herself, 2,200 staff in the carrier air wing, and approximately 180 aircraft of various types (primarily Valkyries).  Revised numbers put her about on par with a Gerald R. Ford-class supercarrier in terms of regular crew but with about twice the number of aircraft.

[aurance]

37 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That, or something very like it, is probably the math that M.A.T. used when they wrote the original spec for Sky Angels.

Of course, when you think about it, it doesn't actually make sense for the size of the crew to scale linearly with the volume of the ship.  After all, even if the ship gets bigger there are a LOT of departments that really would not require or benefit from increased staffing.  The only areas it'd actually be 100% necessary would be the engine room, the carrier air wing (to support the greater number of aircraft), and the ship's mess.

Revised versions of the stats published in Variable Fighter Master File keep a shocking amount of the details I gave previously, but scale the crew and aircraft complements back to more reasonable numbers... 2,700 crew for the Prometheus herself, 2,200 staff in the carrier air wing, and approximately 180 aircraft of various types (primarily Valkyries).  Revised numbers put her about on par with a Gerald R. Ford-class supercarrier in terms of regular crew but with about twice the number of aircraft.

I’m aware of all that. There’s nothing more to my calculation than feasibility of living space.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, aurance said:

I’m aware of all that. There’s nothing more to my calculation than feasibility of living space.

It wasn't my intention to criticize your math, and I apologize if it came off that way despite my intention.

I was just affirming that, yeah, that's probably how the M.A.T. group arrived at their original number before using that as a springboard to jump into the more up-to-date details and why the linear scaling of the crew size doesn't quite work as TehPW had posted previously.

[Knight26]

Ok, so playing with my crew calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/0Bx9xl0H5s2WWT014TFpDTFRwSVk/edit?resourcekey=0-JBoPUxQUR6hxHHaeH1Vjqw#gid=2084902012

I am coming up with the following numbers for a crew compliment:
Assumptions:

150 Valkyries
30 support aircraft (AWAC, etc...)
60 Destroids

Just Crew:	1919
Airwing	1325
Embarked Troops	1161
Total Crew (true)	4405
Officers	792
Enlisted	3318
Civilian Staff	254
Total Embarked(True)	4405

 

I recognize that my assumptions may be off, but you are all free to play around and put in more "Accurate" numbers that better match canon, especially for things like emplaced weapons, numbers of troops, vehicles, etc...

[pengbuzz]

I also imagine that with the increased number of aircraft, there would be an increased amount of space for storing reactant for their fuel supply. So that would cut down on space too. Not to mention increased storage for munitions.

(yes, including the "Budweiser" mini-missiles. )

Edited January 30, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

59 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Ok, so playing with my crew calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/0Bx9xl0H5s2WWT014TFpDTFRwSVk/edit?resourcekey=0-JBoPUxQUR6hxHHaeH1Vjqw#gid=2084902012

I am coming up with the following numbers for a crew compliment:
Assumptions:

150 Valkyries
30 support aircraft (AWAC, etc...)
60 Destroids

There were no Destroids on the Prometheus, so that'll presumably take the numbers down a bit.

Master File's contention is 150 Valkyries and ~30 various auxiliary craft including Ghosts, the old F203 Dragon II (which Master File insists on calling F/A-20N), the ES-11D Cat's Eye, LVT Avenger II, and Sea Sergeant helicopters.

 

19 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I also imagine that with the increased number of aircraft, there would be an increased amount of space for storing reactant for their fuel supply. So that would cut down on space too. Not to mention increased storage for munitions.

Onboard fuel storage should actually be SIGNIFICANTLY less than a conventional nuclear aircraft carrier since the VF-1 Valkyrie, QF-3000 Ghost, and ES-11D Cat's Eye are all using thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that are vastly more fuel efficient in atmosphere than the kerosene-based jet engines of conventional fighters.

[pengbuzz]

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There were no Destroids on the Prometheus, so that'll presumably take the numbers down a bit.

Master File's contention is 150 Valkyries and ~30 various auxiliary craft including Ghosts, the old F203 Dragon II (which Master File insists on calling F/A-20N), the ES-11D Cat's Eye, LVT Avenger II, and Sea Sergeant helicopters.

 

Onboard fuel storage should actually be SIGNIFICANTLY less than a conventional nuclear aircraft carrier since the VF-1 Valkyrie, QF-3000 Ghost, and ES-11D Cat's Eye are all using thermonuclear reaction turbine engines that are vastly more fuel efficient in atmosphere than the kerosene-based jet engines of conventional fighters.

Good point, though they have more aircraft (albeit as you mentioned: in atmosphere they are more efficient).

(I wonder how that woud have translated with their trip in spaaaaaaaaaaacccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....... )

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Good point, though they have more aircraft (albeit as you mentioned: in atmosphere they are more efficient).

(I wonder how that woud have translated with their trip in spaaaaaaaaaaacccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....... )

The Macross was intended for long-duration operations in deep space... so presumably it was equipped with some fairly substantial onboard fuel reserves to support itself and its airwing's operations.

[pengbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross was intended for long-duration operations in deep space... so presumably it was equipped with some fairly substantial onboard fuel reserves to support itself and its airwing's operations.

Okay...I didn't think it would given that its' hangars (shoulders I presume) didn't look like their air wing would be as large as the carriers'. But I see your point here and it's a good one.

[twich]

I know that the Valkyrie was jokingly called the breast fighter because of location of where it landed, but where is the flight deck on the SDF-1 sans the carriers for arms?

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, twich said:

I know that the Valkyrie was jokingly called the breast fighter because of location of where it landed, but where is the flight deck on the SDF-1 sans the carriers for arms?

Twich

In the torso, apparently... with the "shoulders" being shown to be where the fighters are recovered before they connected up the Daedalus and Prometheus.  

[Bolt]

So the launch arms we see in DYRL. Are they also meant for retrieving VF's into the ARMD ? And didn't the SDF-1 have the means to launch and receive Aircraft independent from the Carrier arms? I take that as a given. But where are they located. I know we see returning vf's entering the bow (vents) port and starboard, in SDFM. I always wondered if that was true to the line art or one of the many sub contracted studio flubs. And , I believe, we also see vf's landing on the deck / main guns in ship mode. And the opening credits show elevators (from said deck?) loading and launching vf's.  But in trying to place the various hangars and launching/receiving locations for aircraft throughout the Macross, it gets a bit confusing.

edit. Well @twich you beat me to it lol. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Bolt

[pengbuzz]

Anime animators: giving fans animation (and continuity headaches) since the '60s (and probably earlier).

[aurance]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It wasn't my intention to criticize your math, and I apologize if it came off that way despite my intention.

I was just affirming that, yeah, that's probably how the M.A.T. group arrived at their original number before using that as a springboard to jump into the more up-to-date details and why the linear scaling of the crew size doesn't quite work as TehPW had posted previously.

Given, but berthing for 5000 people, maybe double the number of aircraft loadout of Nimitz, and a lot less onboard fuel storage necessary still leaves a large amount of extra room in a Prometheus proportionally compared to said Nimitz. Which is used for… what, other than more people and more FutureTech equipment? Cargo?

[pengbuzz]

11 minutes ago, aurance said:

Given, but berthing for 5000 people, maybe double the number of aircraft loadout of Nimitz, and a lot less onboard fuel storage necessary still leaves a large amount of extra room in a Prometheus proportionally compared to said Nimitz. Which is used for… what, other than more people and more FutureTech equipment? Cargo?

Pizza?

[aurance]

5 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Pizza?

Listen, I said Prometheus, not Dream Boat 🍕🚢

[deathzealot]

4 minutes ago, aurance said:

Listen, I said Prometheus, not Dream Boat 🍕🚢

You do know modern aircraft carriers actually have fast food restaurants in them don't you? Or at least that is something I heard second-hand from my Navy Veteran of a step-father.

[aurance]

1 minute ago, deathzealot said:

You do know modern aircraft carriers actually have fast food restaurants in them don't you? Or at least that is something I heard second-hand from my Navy Veteran of a step-father.

Oh I know. Markets and leisure spaces too.

[pengbuzz]

37 minutes ago, aurance said:

Listen, I said Prometheus, not Dream Boat 🍕🚢

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pizza_Night_Aboard_USS_Ronald_Reagan_DVIDS119078.jpg

[JB0]

59 minutes ago, aurance said:

Given, but berthing for 5000 people, maybe double the number of aircraft loadout of Nimitz, and a lot less onboard fuel storage necessary still leaves a large amount of extra room in a Prometheus proportionally compared to said Nimitz. Which is used for… what, other than more people and more FutureTech equipment? Cargo?

With the way they use missiles in Macross? Ammo. Lots of ammo.

[pengbuzz]

1 minute ago, JB0 said:

With the way they use missiles in Macross? Ammo. Lots of ammo.

A seaborne Itano Circus? Gotta love it!!!

[aurance]

32 minutes ago, JB0 said:

With the way they use missiles in Macross? Ammo. Lots of ammo.

I can believe that.

[deathzealot]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

A seaborne Itano Circus? Gotta love it!!!

Didn't they kind of do that with the Macross against the Zentreadi after they glassed Earth? I mean a ship version of the Itano Circus?

[TehPW]

10 hours ago, aurance said:

Given, but berthing for 5000 people, maybe double the number of aircraft loadout of Nimitz, and a lot less onboard fuel storage necessary still leaves a large amount of extra room in a Prometheus proportionally compared to said Nimitz. Which is used for… what, other than more people and more FutureTech equipment? Cargo?

*Grins* G.S.E. All those nice planes (both the transformers and not) need Aircraft Jacks (both tripod and Axle), Hydraulic Power Supplies (probably two different models that use two different types of hydraulic fluid for both those Transformer and not), Engine removing trailers (maybe we're lucky and its a common model used on a variety, like the 4000 Trailers used on anything that isn't a F/A-18 or a F-35. Unlucky? The Macross version of a ETU-110 for each different model supported), Nitrogen and Oxygen Service carts, Ground Power carts, Air Start Carts, Air Conditioner Carts, Tow bars and Pushbacks/Tugs, slings for those planes, specialty GSE exclusive to certain models (or even S/Ns) of embarked Aircraft... Did i mention Forklifts and Man Lifts? B-4 Maintenance Stands? 

 

and that's just AIMD assets. Weapons Department has their own small trailers for weapons (AIMD GSE would provide any lifting equipment, like hoists). and maybe Cargo, stacked at one end of the bay (like spare engine cans)...

Noooooo, no i don't miss the boat. It's just fun thought experiments that i'll talk about with a therapist at the VA... 😅

Edited January 31, 2022 by TehPW
Derpyiness

[Bolt]

21 hours ago, Bolt said:

So the launch arms we see in DYRL. Are they also meant for retrieving VF's into the ARMD ? And didn't the SDF-1 have the means to launch and receive Aircraft independent from the Carrier arms? I take that as a given. But where are they located. I know we see returning vf's entering the bow (vents) port and starboard, in SDFM. I always wondered if that was true to the line art or one of the many sub contracted studio flubs. And , I believe, we also see vf's landing on the deck / main guns in ship mode. And the opening credits show elevators (from said deck?) loading and launching vf's.  But in trying to place the various hangars and launching/receiving locations for aircraft throughout the Macross, it gets a bit confusing.

edit. Well @twich you beat me to it lol. 

So no info on some of this ..?

Some of it was kinda answered..

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So no info on some of this ..?

Some of it was kinda answered..

Sorry, I'm a bit slow today... not feeling well.  I'll get to this one, I promise.

[pengbuzz]

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sorry, I'm a bit slow today... not feeling well.  I'll get to this one, I promise.

Hope you feel better Seto; being sick just plain sucks.

[Master Dex]

I was thinking earlier about this and I figure might as well ask it.

We know in the Block 5 and earlier VF-1s transformation was controlled largely between the sliders on a panel. A move no doubt distracting to a pilot mid-combat. Later VFs, including the DYRL Block 6 style seem to have changed this to a HOTAS style control where the orientation of the throttle lever seems to guide transformation... but I never fully understood the mechanics of this. Does flipping it up move to Gerwalk or Battroid? What are the differences between them in this respect? I could dig deeper and question the mechanisms for controlling said modes but... a lot of that is anime magic or really, the airframe control AI I suppose. I'll stick with the controls for transformation for now.

[twich]

So something that kind of stuck into my head a little ago, and yes, I know we don’t have official stats, but…..why would they take the base VF-31 Kairos and boost it up with a bunch of fold quartz to gain performance, engine wise. The base Kairos has a thrust of 1645kN x2, the Siegfried has 1800 something kN x2 with the fold wave system boosting it by 15% or so in overboost. 
did they use the engines of the original Kairos or Siegfried? My thought is that the original Kairos didn’t have the fold wave overboost thing, so if they gave it that capability by adding fold quartz….you pretty much give it the performance of the original Siegfried.

Would it not be cheaper to just give the Siegfried some different/upgraded wings, more fold quartz to increase fold wave boost and change out the mission pack?

I guess it is just hard for me to wrap my head around this based on not having any factual hard stats to back it up, for my brain at least. What does everyone else think?

Twich

[Bolt]

22 minutes ago, twich said:

So something that kind of stuck into my head a little ago, and yes, I know we don’t have official stats, but…..why would they take the base VF-31 Kairos and boost it up with a bunch of fold quartz to gain performance, engine wise. The base Kairos has a thrust of 1645kN x2, the Siegfried has 1800 something kN x2 with the fold wave system boosting it by 15% or so in overboost. 
did they use the engines of the original Kairos or Siegfried? My thought is that the original Kairos didn’t have the fold wave overboost thing, so if they gave it that capability by adding fold quartz….you pretty much give it the performance of the original Siegfried.

Would it not be cheaper to just give the Siegfried some different/upgraded wings, more fold quartz to increase fold wave boost and change out the mission pack?

I guess it is just hard for me to wrap my head around this based on not having any factual hard stats to back it up, for my brain at least. What does everyone else think?

Twich

Bandai Factor. 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Hope you feel better Seto; being sick just plain sucks.

Thanks.  It's something I'm used to, whenever the weather changes really rapidly I tend to get a bit bleh... with migraines and such.

Mother Nature is in a real bad mood out here right now, so I'm just feeling her wrath a bit more keenly than most.

 

4 hours ago, Master Dex said:

We know in the Block 5 and earlier VF-1s transformation was controlled largely between the sliders on a panel. A move no doubt distracting to a pilot mid-combat. Later VFs, including the DYRL Block 6 style seem to have changed this to a HOTAS style control where the orientation of the throttle lever seems to guide transformation... but I never fully understood the mechanics of this. Does flipping it up move to Gerwalk or Battroid? What are the differences between them in this respect? I could dig deeper and question the mechanisms for controlling said modes but... a lot of that is anime magic or really, the airframe control AI I suppose. I'll stick with the controls for transformation for now.

Like a lot of the really in-depth detail, this one has the most detailed answer in Variable Fighter Master File's page.  Specifically, Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Battroid Valkyrie.

Essentially, it's about the angle of the throttle lever... which locks in three positions:

• Horizontal: Fighter mode
• 45 Degrees above Horizontal: GERWALK mode
• Vertical: Battroid mode

There's a thumb trigger that unlocks the throttle lever angle to prevent unintended actuation of the mode selector.

The aforementioned Master File book has more detail, including diagrams showing how the throttle is used for maneuvering in each mode.

 

 

59 minutes ago, twich said:

So something that kind of stuck into my head a little ago, and yes, I know we don’t have official stats, but…..why would they take the base VF-31 Kairos and boost it up with a bunch of fold quartz to gain performance, engine wise. The base Kairos has a thrust of 1645kN x2, the Siegfried has 1800 something kN x2 with the fold wave system boosting it by 15% or so in overboost. 
did they use the engines of the original Kairos or Siegfried? My thought is that the original Kairos didn’t have the fold wave overboost thing, so if they gave it that capability by adding fold quartz….you pretty much give it the performance of the original Siegfried.

What we've been told is that the VF-31AX Kairos Plus is a stock VF-31A Kairos that was upgraded using the remaining spare parts from the VF-31 Custom Siegfrieds.

Since it's been indicated in a few places - incl. Master File - that you need a special class of engine for compatibility with a Fold Wave System, I'd assume the Kairos Plus is using the detuned FF-3001/FC2 engines that were originally produced for the Siegfried customs.  If they were looking to improve performance, possibly engines detuned less than the ones on the Siegfried were... since the FF-3001/FC2 was originally rated for a base output of 2,110kN when it was deployed on the YF-30 Chronos.  (Of course, given the issues that the engines detuned to a maximum output of 1,875kN already caused for the Kairos airframe in the Siegfried Custom type, they wouldn't be able to go too much higher with that without significant frame reinforcement.)

 

59 minutes ago, twich said:

Would it not be cheaper to just give the Siegfried some different/upgraded wings, more fold quartz to increase fold wave boost and change out the mission pack?

So, as I understand it... the reason the Kairos Plus is a thing is that...

Spoiler

... Xaos's VF-31 Custom Siegfrieds and Windermere IV's Sv-262 Draken III's get hit with the Worf Effect pretty hard early in Absolute Live!!!!!! and are either destroyed or suffer so much damage that they're effectively beyond repair.  Hacking together a new ace custom using the remaining/spare VF-31A's and the stockpiles of Siegfried spare parts was the only option to produce something that could face the Vivasvat in combat.

So yeah, it probably would have been cheaper... but the option to retrofit doesn't seem to have been available.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Thanks.  It's something I'm used to, whenever the weather changes really rapidly I tend to get a bit bleh... with migraines and such.

Mother Nature is in a real bad mood out here right now, so I'm just feeling her wrath a bit more keenly than most.

I understand completely;  I get those (TBI-related and aggravated by weather) along with physical injuries that act up as well.

Some days ya just wanna hide in bed and not even sit at a 'puter!

[no3Ljm]

Just posting here bigger clear promotional images from the last movie.