Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Podtastic]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 Its high center of gravity makes it liable to tip over in collisions and so on, so its pilot has to exercise great care.

We have the ability now to make very nimble and stable legged AI drones with our 21st Century earth tech. Given the Protoculture's uber tech and massive manufacturing capability this is beyond sloppy on their part. 

They spent a lot of resources on giant warriors, giant equipment, and giant ships but skimped on things that would have made every single one of them more effective. Its both insane and spiteful at the same time.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

he favored explanation among the current sources seems to be that the Protoculture developed their overtechnology from the study of Vajra carcasses they found and that they designed their war machines based upon those advances in imitation of the Vajra's own forms seemingly in an application of "nature is the best engineer".  For a given value of "nature", considering the Vajra evolved to the point of being able to take direct control over their own evolution in the distant past.  The Vajra were an ancient and estalished interstellar species when the Protoculture's civilization was taking its first hesitant steps into space.  Presented with the opportunity to study a far more advanced species, the Protoculture would naturally hit on the idea of copying the Vajra's biotechnological "designs" because those were already proven by the Vajra's continued use of them.

 

Which just makes it worse. 

I digress, but this quote reminds me of a fanfic where a WOTW Martian is asked why they never invented the wheel. Its answer is that the leg is so much more versatile, and is a tried and tested design over millions of years. The Martians tech was so advanced in this regard that their machines seemed more like living creatures than they did.

Pity the Protoculture's " imitation of the Vajra's own forms" clearly is not at that level.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You've missed the point of them completely, I'm afraid.

Deliberately.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

the only thing protecting humanity's fragile and nascent interstellar civilization from utter ruin is that the Zentradi don't know that we exist yet.

The seeding project may prevent all of humanity's eggs being in one basket, but it does increase the risk of discovery.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They are a senseless force of largely indiscriminate destruction unleashed upon the galaxy by the Protoculture's arrogance

So they're the Orks, whereas I want them to be more like the Spessmuhreens.  Or what the Space Marines would be if they had significant numbers.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

and there's the possibility they might be unwittingly protecting the galaxy from something even worse.

Interesting. 

Provided that's not the Protodevlin and the Supervision army. 

Something new.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I assume that because the Protoculture must have had at least a communications hardline to the Zentraedi to issue orders that wouldn't be intercepted by their enemies.

It seems like a reasonably safe assumption that any Protoculture-use command and control infrastructure was probably destroyed early in the fighting, along with anyone who had the necessary authority to order the Zentradi to stop fighting.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

We have the ability now to make very nimble and stable legged AI drones with our 21st Century earth tech. Given the Protoculture's uber tech and massive manufacturing capability this is beyond sloppy on their part. 

... we have the ability to make very slow, very clumsy drones that can walk on flat services without (frequently) toppling over and even jump from one flat surface to another without (usually) falling but they're prohibitively expensive, fussy, and their capabilities are VERY limited.

The Protoculture didn't see the Zentradi as people, but rather as living weapons.  Chatty autopilot systems made of meat.

 

50 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

They spent a lot of resources on giant warriors, giant equipment, and giant ships but skimped on things that would have made every single one of them more effective. Its both insane and spiteful at the same time.

We don't know what their original development environment was like, you're judging it on the basis of what you wish was true rather than what the facts are.

 

50 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

I digress, but this quote reminds me of a fanfic where a WOTW Martian is asked why they never invented the wheel. Its answer is that the leg is so much more versatile, and is a tried and tested design over millions of years. The Martians tech was so advanced in this regard that their machines seemed more like living creatures than they did.

Pity the Protoculture's " imitation of the Vajra's own forms" clearly is not at that level.

At the time the Protoculture created the Zentradi and their equipment, they had only been a spacefaring civilization for a few hundred years.  They were simply advanced aliens, not yet the sufficiently advanced aliens whose biotechnology invoked Clarke's Third Law as seen in Macross 7, Macross Zero, and Macross Delta.  It says quite a bit that even then, they'd managed to make military hardware and autonomous logistical support infrastructure that was effectively Ragnarok-proof even if some of it was deliberately made simple to make it economical to mass-produce.

 

50 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

The seeding project may prevent all of humanity's eggs being in one basket, but it does increase the risk of discovery.

That it does, yes.

 

50 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

So they're the Orks, whereas I want them to be more like the Spessmuhreens.  Or what the Space Marines would be if they had significant numbers.

There really isn't a ton of difference there from the outsider's perspective.

They're both big, shouty, xenophobic, genetically-engineered abominations that know only war.

(Spess Muhreens are only nice guys who don't burn planets out of spite when they're Lamenters or the Ultramarines 4th Company.  )

 

50 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

Provided that's not the Protodevlin and the Supervision army. 

Something new.

It's the Supervision Army.

[sketchley]

10 hours ago, Podtastic said:

What a waste. The Regult should be fast and agile on its feet. Able to run, hop and leap around opponents like an insect.

It is.  In Macross Plus Game Edition, the Regult is particularly adapt at lethal spinning roundhouse kicks.  It's also one of the most manoeuvrable mecha you can pilot in the game.

I think Seto has convoluted "(physically) hard to operate" with "operates poorly".  I haven't come across much that claims the latter, but many sources state the former—the most extreme being the Zentradi-held opinion that they'd rather get out and walk than drive a Regult!

Edited January 25, 2022 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, sketchley said:

It is.  In Macross Plus Game Edition, the Regult is particularly adapt at lethal spinning roundhouse kicks.  It's also one of the most manoeuvrable mecha you can pilot in the game.

Ironically, official material notes its legs are actually quite fragile... but that's segregation of gameplay and story.

 

2 minutes ago, sketchley said:

I think Seto has convoluted "(physically) hard to operate" with "operates poorly".  I haven't come across much that claims the latter, but many sources state the former—the most extreme being the Zentradi-held opinion that they'd rather get out and walk than drive a Regult!

Not me, @Podtastic.

Basically, he's upset that the Zentradi and their mecha in the official setting don't align with his personal impression of what they should be like.

All I've done is note that having legs does not necessarily mean a mecha is intended primarily for ground combat, and point out a few points regarding the Regult's handling from the official materials like it being physically demanding to operate because of its low level of system automation, that it's noted to be top-heavy with low stability and easily damaged legs, and that it does a lot of its maneuvering in the form of jumping.

At no point did I say or imply that the Regult operates poorly.  Just that it doesn't operate quite how he wishes it operated.  @Podtastic chose to interpret the disparity between how the Regult actually operates and how he wanted it to operate as it operating poorly. 😉 

(Goodness knows they're shown to be extremely agile in the original series and in Delta, ESPECIALLY while jumping.)

[RedWolf]

When NUNS got Queadluuns for their Zentradi troops in Macross Fromtier I said finally they retired those ball deathtraps! Then Macross Delta showed Regult variants! 

It gives the picture of the Brisingr Alliance being a bunch of cheapskates along with them still not replacing the VF-171. Some other Zentradi NUNS Marines use either Queadluun-Rhea or Neo Glaug as their fighting machine. 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

When NUNS got Queadluuns for their Zentradi troops in Macross Fromtier I said finally they retired those ball deathtraps! Then Macross Delta showed Regult variants! 

To be fair to the Type-104 and Type-106, none of the Zentradi mecha in the original "stock" state significantly prioritized survivability.  Improving that was something that the New UN Forces took as a serious consideration when designing upgrades like the Queadluun-Rhea.

 

30 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

It gives the picture of the Brisingr Alliance being a bunch of cheapskates along with them still not replacing the VF-171. Some other Zentradi NUNS Marines use either Queadluun-Rhea or Neo Glaug as their fighting machine. 

Now, in all fairness, there's a pretty big difference between being frugal and being a cheapskate... and what the Brisingr Alliance is being is frugal.

The Brisingr Alliance's isolated position out on the fringes of the galaxy and with some areas of intense fold fault activity has done a lot to hinder its economic growth, so the Brisingr Alliance's planetary governments have to make every penny (or whatever their local currency is called) count.  Locally developing their own 5th Generation Valkyrie is something they did very deliberately in a bid to create jobs locally and provide some economic stimulus for the cluster by selling their new model as an export fighter as well.

While the VF-171 is often treated with a bit of scorn because it compares unfavorably to the new hotness that is the local 5th Generation VF tipped to replace it, it is by no means an inferior or inadequate fighter.  It served with distinction for two decades and counting as the main Valkyrie of the NUNS, and is noted to be an effective and highly versatile Valkyrie more than adequate for fighting the Zentradi or most anything else that isn't the Vajra.

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

While the VF-171 is often treated with a bit of scorn because it compares unfavorably to the new hotness that is the local 5th Generation VF tipped to replace it, it is by no means an inferior or inadequate fighter.  It served with distinction for two decades and counting as the main Valkyrie of the NUNS, and is noted to be an effective and highly versatile Valkyrie more than adequate for fighting the Zentradi or most anything else that isn't the Vajra.

This ! The 171 still has a shelf life within the various Macross fleets.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

This ! The 171 still has a shelf life within the various Macross fleets.

Oh, absolutely.  The amount of time it takes to transition a thousand or more pilots to a new model of fighter alone ensures the VF-171 has quite a few years left to it.  That'll only be lengthened by the amount of time it takes for various emigrant governments to decide on a 5th Generation Valkyrie and start building them.  For instance, the Brisingr Alliance won't start adoption of the VF-31 Kairos until 2069 or 2070 according to Kawamori.  Even as squadrons transition to the new model, the VF-171 will continue in service for years until it has been completely supplanted by the new model in every role.  

(For instance, the Frontier Government was still in the process of phasing out and decommissioning its remaining VF-11s in 2058, over a decade after they were replaced by the VF-171.)

 

 

Also, WRT the Regult, it's worth noting that even though it's hard on its pilots due to the comparatively low degree of system automation and has some noteworthy vulnerabilities, it shares a lot of the VF-171's virtues.  It's a simple, proven design that's extremely cost-effective and has a high degree of versatility.  It can be equipped to fill a wide variety of roles in battlefield operations with minimal design changes.  It might not have all the newest and best bells and whistles, but it's rugged, dependable, and its simplicity makes it easy enough to handle that even average operators can bring out the design's potential.  That it and its pilots are designed with "acceptable losses" firmly in mind is unavoidable, but while it isn't going to win any awards for survivability it's fast and agile enough to remain threatening with a reasonably balanced armament and the fact that you're never fighting just one... the Regult pilot inevitably shows up to battle with about fifty of his closest friends.

[twich]

So it looks like Egan Loo at the Macross Compendium is starting g to upload some info for the SV-303 and the VF-31AX Kairos Plus. To add to my previous question, since it seems like they scavenged parts from the Siegfried and the SV-262 Draken III, I wonder if the rail guns were stripped from a SV-262 to “beef” it up. Can’t wait for more official information on these mechs.

Twich

[Bolt]

Thanks for the heads up 👍🏼

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, twich said:

So it looks like Egan Loo at the Macross Compendium is starting g to upload some info for the SV-303 and the VF-31AX Kairos Plus.

Edit history says it's Azrael doing it, tho.

Looks like he's putting in some info from the theatrical pamphlet.

 

18 minutes ago, twich said:

To add to my previous question, since it seems like they scavenged parts from the Siegfried and the SV-262 Draken III, I wonder if the rail guns were stripped from a SV-262 to “beef” it up. Can’t wait for more official information on these mechs.

That was one of the few details we already had, though the DX Chogokin seems to have thrown some interesting wrenches into the works by having the same model number of railgun as the regular Siegfried.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Seto Kaiba
Bloody hell, I can apparently neither read nor spell tonight.

[Seto Kaiba]

To make up for my grievous error in my initial reply to twich, I'll do a quick runthru of the Great Mechanics G stuff tomorrow during my tedious transmission team meetings.  (Completely misread his post and dashed off a reply that was about 80% gibberish and 20% misunderstanding. >_< )

Edited January 26, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Podtastic]

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... we have the ability to make very slow, very clumsy drones that can walk on flat services without (frequently) toppling over and even jump from one flat surface to another without (usually) falling but they're prohibitively expensive, fussy, and their capabilities are VERY limited.

The Protoculture didn't see the Zentradi as people, but rather as living weapons.  Chatty autopilot systems made of meat

Thats actually good news. I was referring here to a video I saw of a nasty 4 legged drone that couldnt even be knocked over is was so good at righting itself. It was damn frightening stuff.

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We don't know what their original development environment was like, you're judging it on the basis of what you wish was true rather than what the facts are.

Surely giant things use more resources than small things.

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's the Supervision Army.

I hoped for better. What I saw in 7 did not impress me.😒

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

At no point did I say or imply that the Regult operates poorly.  Just that it doesn't operate quite how he wishes it operated.  @Podtastic chose to interpret the disparity between how the Regult actually operates and how he wanted it to operate as it operating poorly. 😉 

Based on your comment that it is noted to be poor at walking and can tip over easily due to its high centre of gravity, so pilots have to be careful. I would nit want to hear that if U was a Zentraedi pilot being issued one for heavy ground combat .

Edited January 26, 2022 by Podtastic

[Lexomatic]

If I might interject on the contours of the current debate: I concur that the Protoculture doctrine behind the Zentraedi doesn't make sense, if you come at it with assumptions derived from "serious" space-opera and mil-SF like Star Trek, Legend of Galactic Heroes, Keith Laumer's Bolo novels, etc. [1]. If the over-the-top scale of Zentraedi forces is a satire of real world nuclear-MAD overkill (to name one facet), then it might originate in the original conception of Macross as a parody of Gundam, in which case the proper interpretation is more in line with the British-1980s-satire stance for Warhammer 40,000 or Judge Dredd. (Where "originate" would mean "post-hoc rationalization compatible with ideas from 1982, but rejected at the time.")

As a viewer it's very easy to be unaware of the Protoculture doctrine, because it's mentioned on-screen only a few times (when the human characters are lucky enough to encounter a Protoculture relic with storytelling on its mind) and is otherwise revealed in video games and "setting materials" like Macross Chronicle, relayed to us through the good services of @Seto Kaiba et al. Most of the time, the narrative focus is elsewhere, and the only discernible reason for most elements is "rule of cool."

FWIW, the story of "human strategic planners and historians (none of them romantic nor singers) who interview Zentraedi officers, study Protoculture relics, discover the true horrific scale and callousness of the original plans for the Protoculture's civil war" seems more doujinshi territory than anything we'll see on TV or in a Macross R-style official written form. Imagine Captain Picard faced with the Protoculture's decision to create "an entire race of disposable people."

[1] ... Star Wars (some of the novels, not really the movies, although the TV series sometimes consider the ethics of the Republic's clone army), David Weber [2], John Ringo, Sean Williams and Shane Dix, or the Jack McKinney Robotech novelizations (which are a different beast than the TV series which had to make-do with existing footage).

[2] The third book of Weber's Dahak/Empire from the Ashes series reveals a premise akin to that of Macross: the Achuultani have been sweeping around the galaxy for millions of years in a state of cultural stasis, exterminating everybody, because their war computer is justifying its own continued operation.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Lexomatic
More examples of mil-SF that address questions that Macross doesn't; video games as a source of Protoculture background, Picard.

[RedWolf]

Both the Glaug and Regult are based on the shape of Vajra drones. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. The Protoculture can  certainly make more Vajra like weapons such as the Giant Bugs on New Asia and Dyaus  Guardians on Ouroboros. .Essington around in Protoculture ruins is always a gamble. The Zentradi Medium Gun Destroyer firing mechanism is certainly inspired by the Vajra Knight Class.

The Nupetiet-Vergnitzs however was not based on Vajra but Galactic Whales that visit Planet Zola yearly. In Macrosss Dynamite 7 poachers catch and sell Galactic Whales to produce space ship parts. Elma didn't elaborate on what specifically but I am assuming like the Vajra Galactic Whales have natural Fold Reactors and has Fold Carbon in their bodies as they can Space Fold.

It could be the Protoculture original area of space puts them in proximity of these creatures. There is some confirmation of Protoculture ruins on the Vajra homeworld. But given the Vajra are extra galactic and has been known to turn Zentradi Mobile Fortress as a hive they could've just moved in. 

The Protoculture creating the Zentradi could also be a statement. "We too can be Giants!" The Protoculture are conceited enough to call itself the species with the first culture. Though I do wonder if in their proxy war using Zentradi if the Protoculture just left decisions to AI. After 500,000 years the Bird Human and Protoculture person or or AI on Rax still follow their programming. In DYRL the war continues due to the Super Computers running the the Mobile Fotresses. The Factory Satellites are.like Von Neumann machines making more of themselves and weapons they produce.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Thats actually good news. I was referring here to a video I saw of a nasty 4 legged drone that couldnt even be knocked over is was so good at righting itself. It was damn frightening stuff.

Oh, the Boston Dynamics dog series?  Yeah, they're the epitome of "tests well, but can't perform".

They started out as a DARPA project called BigDog that was supposed to be a sort of robotic pack mule to accompany infantry into areas where wheeled and tracked vehicles were unable to maneuver.  It proved to be too noisy, too heavy, and have too short of an operating time to be even remotely practical.  It went through a few more demonstrator model phases that performed well on closed courses but had issues in real world conditions.  Their first viable version was the Spot, which was scaled down considerably to address all the weight and balance issues, but it's basically a showpiece as expensive as a small car that can do a decent job following basic preprogrammed routines but handles poorly off level ground.  It's more or less an overcomplicated bomb disposal robot that isn't actually used for bomb disposal.  (You probably have more to fear from the bomb disposal robot, it's got tracks so it's not going to tip over like a dozy cow if you walk up an incline.)

There is, however, a very entertaining video by Michael Reeves of him modifying and programming one to "dispense" beer...

You might say Boston Dynamics is taking the...

...

... you know what, I'm not going to finish that joke.  It's just too easy.

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Surely giant things use more resources than small things.

Initially, sure... though the Protoculture built on such an insane scale that it's unlikely they cared, and if the miclone and bioplant systems we've seen are any indicator they had some pretty insane recycling technology too.  

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

I hoped for better. What I saw in 7 did not impress me.😒

No offense, but I get the general vibe that you're more about that other series we don't talk about here.

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Based on your comment that it is noted to be poor at walking and can tip over easily due to its high centre of gravity, so pilots have to be careful. I would nit want to hear that if U was a Zentraedi pilot being issued one for heavy ground combat .

Assuming you were a Zentradi pilot headed into a surface theater in a Regult, you'd probably be rather unconcerned about it since you'd know the Regult's greatest mobility on the ground comes from jumping/hopping and have been trained to abuse that advantage liberally.

(You'd probably be far more upset that you're going to spend your time being jostled around inside that cramped cockpit.)

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

As a viewer it's very easy to be unaware of the Protoculture doctrine, because it's mentioned on-screen only a few times (when the human characters are lucky enough to encounter a Protoculture relic with storytelling on its mind) and is otherwise revealed in video games and "setting materials" like Macross Chronicle, relayed to us through the good services of @Seto Kaiba et al. Most of the time, the narrative focus is elsewhere, and the only discernible reason for most elements is "rule of cool."

Even in the setting material, humanity can only really guess at what caused the ancient Protoculture to design things they way they did.

The original cultural, political, technological, and strategic context that led to the Zentradi military hardware being designed the way it is has been lost to half a million years of time and the general indifference of the Zentradi themselves.

Humanity just has to roll with it, because the galaxy is going to be dealing with the fallout of the Protoculture's poor decisions into eternity.

 

2 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

FWIW, the story of "human strategic planners and historians (none of them romantic nor singers) who interview Zentraedi officers, study Protoculture relics, discover the true horrific scale and callousness of the original plans for the Protoculture's civil war" seems more doujinshi territory than anything we'll see on TV or in a Macross R-style official written form. Imagine Captain Picard faced with the Protoculture's decision to create "an entire race of disposable people."

It has been addressed, albeit indirectly, a few times.... like Macross Delta mentioning that the New UN Government has a ban on the use of cloning for military purposes that makes Mikumo's creation a crime.  Humanity apparently has rather higher moral standards than the Protoculture did.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Elma didn't elaborate on what specifically but I am assuming like the Vajra Galactic Whales have natural Fold Reactors and has Fold Carbon in their bodies as they can Space Fold.

At the very least, the Galactic Whales have to have some kind of fold carbon in their bodies and a biological means to contain and manipulate it given that they use fold navigation to travel interstellar distances.  They spend their lives soaking up radiation from stars, so it's possible they don't actually need a dedicated power system like a reactor to produce energy for a fold jump.  (IIRC, they're described in Macross Chronicle as being a sort of halfway point between a plant and a mineral life form.)

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

It could be the Protoculture original area of space puts them in proximity of these creatures.

Macross Chronicle goes so far as to suggest that as the origin of Overtechnology... the Protoculture coming into possession of Vajra carcasses, studying them, and reverse-engineering their biotechnology.

(It's an interesting possibility that even their genetic engineering technology may be derived from the Vajra's control over their own evolution.)

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

The Protoculture are conceited enough to call itself the species with the first culture.

I'm not sure that's really conceit... the Protoculture were the first conventionally sentient race in the galaxy and the first ones to develop their own culture.

The Vajra absolutely predated them as a spacefaring species, but Vajra are not individually intelligent and show no sign of anything beyond basic biological drives.

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Though I do wonder if in their proxy war using Zentradi if the Protoculture just left decisions to AI. After 500,000 years the Bird Human and Protoculture person or or AI on Rax still follow their programming. In DYRL the war continues due to the Super Computers running the the Mobile Fotresses. The Factory Satellites are.like Von Neumann machines making more of themselves and weapons they produce.

There is one factoid that suggests the Protoculture originally took a direct hand in controlling the Zentradi.

Macross Chronicle mentions that the Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class Zentradi fleet mothership has an area that replicates the environment of the Protoculture homeworld.  There wouldn't be any functional reason to have something like that unless the ships were originally designed to have Protoculture living aboard them as well.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

At the very least, the Galactic Whales have to have some kind of fold carbon in their bodies and a biological means to contain and manipulate it given that they use fold navigation to travel interstellar distances.  They spend their lives soaking up radiation from stars, so it's possible they don't actually need a dedicated power system like a reactor to produce energy for a fold jump.  (IIRC, they're described in Macross Chronicle as being a sort of halfway point between a plant and a mineral life form.)

Must be fun when playing "20 questions".

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle goes so far as to suggest that as the origin of Overtechnology... the Protoculture coming into possession of Vajra carcasses, studying them, and reverse-engineering their biotechnology.

(It's an interesting possibility that even their genetic engineering technology may be derived from the Vajra's control over their own evolution.)

I'm supposing that by now, certain entities in the NUNS as well as the major corporations have been studying Vajra remains.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle mentions that the Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class Zentradi fleet mothership has an area that replicates the environment of the Protoculture homeworld.  There wouldn't be any functional reason to have something like that unless the ships were originally designed to have Protoculture living aboard them as well.

Interesting... is it possible that there might be at least one or two motherships out there that could have Protoculture survivors aboard them?

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I'm supposing that by now, certain entities in the NUNS as well as the major corporations have been studying Vajra remains.

Yeah, they've been at that for a good while now.

It's a fairly safe bet humanity has been studying the Vajra since first contact was made in 2040, or from shortly after that point.  The first major study of the Vajra that we know about was the 117th Research Fleet's expedition into Vajra space in the mid-to-late 2040s.  That expedition featured prominently into Macross Frontier's backstory as that was where Ranka contracted the V-type bacterium in utero that made her the "Little Queen", where Grace developed the implant network theory, where Ranka and Brera were orphaned in the Vajra's attack on the fleet, and what led the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global to end up a decaying wreck on Gallia IV.  In 2059, Macross Frontier's Island-3 had a xenobiology lab where the Frontier fleet's xenobiology experts studied the Vajra carcasses recovered during the first battle (and probably others).

 

6 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Interesting... is it possible that there might be at least one or two motherships out there that could have Protoculture survivors aboard them?

Current official setting material describes the Protoculture as extinct for hundreds of thousands of years.

(And the Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class seems to have been largely replaced in continuity with the Boddole Zer-type mobile fortress from the movies.)

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, they've been at that for a good while now.

It's a fairly safe bet humanity has been studying the Vajra since first contact was made in 2040, or from shortly after that point.  The first major study of the Vajra that we know about was the 117th Research Fleet's expedition into Vajra space in the mid-to-late 2040s.  That expedition featured prominently into Macross Frontier's backstory as that was where Ranka contracted the V-type bacterium in utero that made her the "Little Queen", where Grace developed the implant network theory, where Ranka and Brera were orphaned in the Vajra's attack on the fleet, and what led the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global to end up a decaying wreck on Gallia IV.  In 2059, Macross Frontier's Island-3 had a xenobiology lab where the Frontier fleet's xenobiology experts studied the Vajra carcasses recovered during the first battle (and probably others).

 

Current official setting material describes the Protoculture as extinct for hundreds of thousands of years.

(And the Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class seems to have been largely replaced in continuity with the Boddole Zer-type mobile fortress from the movies.)

Thanks Seto... my apologies if I keep bringing up the Protoculture's possibility of survival, but at least on Earth, they've found remnants of species that had previously been declared "extinct". I was seeing some faint possibilities that perhaps a surviving group (albeit small) could have escaped annihilation by being in some "pocket" secreted away by circumstance or happenstance.

[sketchley]

21 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks Seto... my apologies if I keep bringing up the Protoculture's possibility of survival, but at least on Earth, they've found remnants of species that had previously been declared "extinct". I was seeing some faint possibilities that perhaps a surviving group (albeit small) could have escaped annihilation by being in some "pocket" secreted away by circumstance or happenstance.

Nothing's impossible in science fiction. 

My personal interpretation is that the Protoculture are like the Ancients in Stargate SG-1: remaining groups moved on to different galaxies or evolved into different forms of life (not saying that the Protoculture evolved into energy based beings, mind you).

However, until Kawamori-san wants to tell a story involving Protoculture survivors, it's probably not going to happen.

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks Seto... my apologies if I keep bringing up the Protoculture's possibility of survival, but at least on Earth, they've found remnants of species that had previously been declared "extinct". I was seeing some faint possibilities that perhaps a surviving group (albeit small) could have escaped annihilation by being in some "pocket" secreted away by circumstance or happenstance.

Macross II: Lovers Again toyed with the idea via the Mardook, who were implied to be the descendants of Protoculture refugees who had been living a semi-nomadic existence like the Protoculture computer in Macross: Do You Remember Love? mentioned.  I've often wondered if they were meant to be descendants of that very same group of Protoculture, since their culture had a myth/prophecy about a blue planet that where they would find peace.  Whether that's a good thing or not is a YMMV sort of thing.

For the main Macross continuity/metaseries... Kawamori's going to do what Kawamori wants to do.  I doubt he's going to back down from the position that the Protoculture are gone, though.  Not after going so hard on the Cold War allegory in Macross 7, Macross Zero making a big deal out of wanting their creations to not repeat their mistakes, and both Frontier's story and Delta's story making a huge deal out of their legacy, unrealized societal ambitions, terminal decline, and who was meant to inherit their legacy.  It'd suck all the wind out of the sails of those story arcs if someone one day just stumbled across a bunch of Protoculture blithely going about their business.

It's like finding the Megaroad-01... some mysteries are better left unsolved, because the sheer mundanity of the answer means it'll never live up to the myth built on the question.  The legend has outgrown the reality to the point that the reality would only be disappointing.

[pengbuzz]

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross II: Lovers Again toyed with the idea via the Mardook, who were implied to be the descendants of Protoculture refugees who had been living a semi-nomadic existence like the Protoculture computer in Macross: Do You Remember Love? mentioned.  I've often wondered if they were meant to be descendants of that very same group of Protoculture, since their culture had a myth/prophecy about a blue planet that where they would find peace.  Whether that's a good thing or not is a YMMV sort of thing.

For the main Macross continuity/metaseries... Kawamori's going to do what Kawamori wants to do.  I doubt he's going to back down from the position that the Protoculture are gone, though.  Not after going so hard on the Cold War allegory in Macross 7, Macross Zero making a big deal out of wanting their creations to not repeat their mistakes, and both Frontier's story and Delta's story making a huge deal out of their legacy, unrealized societal ambitions, terminal decline, and who was meant to inherit their legacy.  It'd suck all the wind out of the sails of those story arcs if someone one day just stumbled across a bunch of Protoculture blithely going about their business.

It's like finding the Megaroad-01... some mysteries are better left unsolved, because the sheer mundanity of the answer means it'll never live up to the myth built on the question.  The legend has outgrown the reality to the point that the reality would only be disappointing.

Well...to be honest...

I was kinda hoping they would find a few of them alive, in some hidden enclave on a distant planet. Maybe very elderly, with one of them the last remaining engineer who worked on their projects like the Zentraedi, Bird Human, Protodevlin and such. The group would walk up to them, and after a fairly cordial welcome, one of the group of NUNS people would clear their throat and ask just one thing:

NUNS Group Member: "Excuse me sir, but I'd just like to know one thing about all the work your people have done in your culture?"

Elderly Protoculture Engineer: "I'd be happy to tell you, dear child,"

NUNS Group Member: "Okay...er...how do I put this?..."

*clears throat*

Spoiler

NUNS Group Member: "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING??!!"

*Elderly Protoculture Engineer drops dead of coronary from sheer shock before replying*

NUNS Group Member: " Awww... crap."

I'm not looking for Kawamori to answer anything...just to have someone pointedly exclaim to the remainder how stupid they were for doing it. Then I'd be a happy pengbuzz.

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by pengbuzz

[RedWolf]

The existence of the Star Singer and Mina Forte at least suggest the Protoculture puts some survivors in stasis. Which reminds me was there a story where a SF-3A Lancer II pilot was put into cold sleep and the time he wakes up the war was over?

Edited January 27, 2022 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, RedWolf said:

The existence of the Star Singer and Mina Forte at least suggest the Protoculture puts some survivors in stasis.

Whether they're actually Protoculture or some kind of bio-android is a bit of an unresolved matter...

 

12 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Which reminds me was there a story where a SF-3A Lancer II pilot was put into cold sleep and the time he wakes up the war was over?

Not that I recall?  Master File had a story about an unmanned VF-1 that was launched on a flight thru the solar system before the war that returned after, to the surprise of all.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not that I recall?  Master File had a story about an unmanned VF-1 that was launched on a flight thru the solar system before the war that returned after, to the surprise of all.

Wonder how much maintenance it needed after?

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, pengbuzz said:

Wonder how much maintenance it needed after?

From the picture and description, it was damaged to the point of being inoperable... but was still able to be restored.

It was the No.3 VF-1 production model that had been sent on an unmanned solo flight to Saturn to confirm the durability of the VF-1 and its engines.  It was initially believed that it'd been damaged by a Zentradi attack, but was later concluded to have suffered a LOT of micrometeorite impacts passing near Saturn.

[pengbuzz]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

From the picture and description, it was damaged to the point of being inoperable... but was still able to be restored.

It was the No.3 VF-1 production model that had been sent on an unmanned solo flight to Saturn to confirm the durability of the VF-1 and its engines.  It was initially believed that it'd been damaged by a Zentradi attack, but was later concluded to have suffered a LOT of micrometeorite impacts passing near Saturn.

Hmm... would have been something if the SDF-1 had encountered it on its' trip back (one battle happened in Saturn's rings IIRC).

[Seto Kaiba]

Since there was a Newbie thread question about the Prometheus, here are some fun facts from one of the oldest versions of the Prometheus's lore in Sky Angels.

PLEASE NOTE, THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS LORE THAT IS NO LONGER CURRENT/CORRECT

Development of the Prometheus-class was originally a US Navy project intended to develop an OTM-based next-generation supercarrier for the US Navy, and transitioned to being the planned main aircraft carrier of the UN Navy once the UN Forces were established.

Prometheus's keel was laid 18 June 2003 at the Newport News Shipbuilding yard in Newport News, Virginia.  It took five years to complete her construction due to modifications made as part of the Macross strategic system and the introduction of OTM.  She was finished and launched in 2008.

Prometheus's sister ships CVA-102 and CVA-103 were completed at the Newport News shipyard on 11 December 2009 and 30 January 2010 respectively, but both were destroyed in the orbital bombardment of Earth in February 2010.

The Prometheus-class and Daedalus-class were the last class of ships constructed using conventional nuclear fission reactors, due to pushback from the military who opposed using more OTM than was necessary at the start of construction.  OTM advocates won out regarding the adoption of waterjet propulsion and the Prometheus-class and Daedalus-class are the first navy vessels to adopt the technology.

The Prometheus's reactor complex houses four Westinghouse A7W pressurized water reactors, an improved version of the A4W reactor used by the US Navy's Nimitz-class.

The lower portion of the "island" contains a set of phased array radars for the Aegis Kai system, a SPS-12 search radar, SPS-48 3D anti-aircraft radar, SPN-44~49 air traffic control radars, and landing guidance radars.  Its defenses include 4 20mm Phalanx CIWS units, 3 Mk.41 10-round missile launchers for Super Sea Sparrow missiles.  Plans were underway to replace the Phalanx units with ROV-20 laser cannon emplacements, but not completed at the time the First Space War broke out.  The ROV-20s were installed after the Macross's return to Earth in November 2009.

Original launch equipment included 4 catapults on the main deck and 2 on the angled deck, all Mk.15 Mod 1 steam catapults.  Later retrofitted to a linear (electromagnetic) type.

In addition to the six main catapults, there is another launch-only deck directly beneath the bow.  

The Prometheus-class's armor-plated main deck is designed to withstand a direct hit from a kiloton-class thermonuclear reaction weapon or a short-range detonation from megaton-class thermonuclear reaction weapon.  This heat resistance is also used to support VTOL launches of Valkyries from the main deck.

There are nine elevators, each outfitted to take two Valkyries at a time.

The firing-and-reset interval for the six main catapults is approximately 18 seconds.

The double set of arresting gear allows for arrested recovery of two aircraft every 35-40 seconds.

The expected endurance of the nuclear fuel in the reactor system is 30 years, or 2-3 million miles.

Due to soaring production costs during the Unification Wars and the introduction of initial generation OTM, the total production cost of the Prometheus was $15.002 billion.

 

Original launch date was given as 21 September 2007, and commissioned on 5 May 2008.

Standard displacement 456,000t, maximum displacement 511280t.

Her four A7W reactors power eight main waterjet turbine engines.

Her total output was 520,000 horsepower, acheiving a top speed of 35+ knots on the surface or 16+ knots submerged.

Her original listed crew complement is 22,000.

Her original listed airwing size is 450 aircraft.

[Bolt]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:03 PM, RedWolf said:

Which reminds me was there a story where a SF-3A Lancer II pilot was put into cold sleep and the time he wakes up the war was over?

Curious to know about that one. 

[Seto Kaiba]

My completionist tendencies are showing, so here's a summary of the Daedalus-class section from the Sky Angels book as well.

PLEASE NOTE, THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS LORE THAT IS NO LONGER CURRENT/CORRECT

Development of the Daedalus-class semi-submersible amphibious assault ship began around the same time as that of the Prometheus-class, intended for use by the Navy/Marines.

In order to address economic policy issues in Japan following Japan's substantial/overwhelming investment in the UN Government's Sea Lane Defense Plan, the planned construction of the Daedalus was moved to Japan's Yashu Heavy Industries shipyard.  Key American-manufactured components including the ship's reactor and waterjet turbine engines were built in America and sent to Japan for installation.

Construction began in November 2003, with the Daedalus originally scheduled to enter service in mid-2007.  Completion was delayed due to design changes from the Macross strategic system and the introduction of OTM.

The class was originally conceived as a Marine Corps LPH (Landing Platform, Helicopter) intended to deploy infantry by helicopter but was reworked into a landing ship for Destroids after the introduction of OTM.

The Daedalus-class's design with two islands mounted on an airfoil-like structure was a design concession intended to increase the depth the main deck could submerge when the ship operated in semi-submersible mode.  The base of the port bridge contains a collection of phased-array radar modules (Aegis Kai type) with an Integrated Tactical Amphibious Warfare Data System installed to facilitate command and control operations over the embarked Destroids.

The Daedalus's flight deck can accommodate 22 normal-sized helicopters, 12 Sikorsky Super Sea Stallion heavy lift helicopters, or 12 VTOL aircraft concurrently.

The hangar deck is approximately 400m long and 55m wide, with a two-layer structure able to accommodate over 200 MBR-04 or MBR-07 series Destroids and 2-3 HWR-00 series Destroids.

There are two large and two small elevators on each side (loading capacity 300t and 100t respectively) and the entire bow functions as a ramp.  The amphibious dock well is below the hangar and is four decks high, with enough space to support 20 landing craft.  There are also quarters/living facilities for approximately 12,000 marines aboard.

During the Macross launch ceremony, the Marine Corps along with the Destroid battalion embarked were protected by multiple layers of watertight bulkheads and radiation shielding in preparation for a possible attack by the remnants of the Anti-Unification Forces.  Due to this, the embarked troops were able to survive the unexpected fold jump and the ship finding itself in the vacuum of space.

 

The Daedalus's keel was laid on 12 November 2003.  She was launched on 20 January 2008, and commissioned into UN Forces service on 10 June 2008.

Her fully-loaded displacement is 570500t.

Like the Prometheus, the Daedalus is powered by four Westinghouse A7W nuclear fission reactors providing 520,000 horsepower for 8 waterjet turbine engines.

Her top speed is 32+ knots on the surface and 18+ knots submerged.

Her normal crew complement is 21,000... including 12,000 marines.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

During the Macross launch ceremony, the Marine Corps along with the Destroid battalion embarked were protected by multiple layers of watertight bulkheads and radiation shielding in preparation for a possible attack by the remnants of the Anti-Unification Forces.  Due to this, the embarked troops were able to survive the unexpected fold jump and the ship finding itself in the vacuum of space.

Ah, that explains quite a bit!

Edited January 29, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Ah, that explains quite a bit!

It certainly explains where the UN Forces got the idea to blame South Ataria island's disappearance on the Anti-Unification forces... they were actually expecting, and actively prepared for, an attack on the Macross launch ceremony.

(Makes you wonder how big of an attack they thought the AUN remnant could pull off... with hundreds of Valkyries and Destroids on station, at least one supercarrier and massive assault ship on station and battened down in anticipation of a tactical reaction weapon strike, and in Macross the First a SECOND supercarrier... (The Asuka II's sister ship CVN-100 Graf Zeppelin II.)

[TehPW]

(Yes, i understand that clevit that That info is highly suspect and now disproven)

 

I literally snorted hard at the notion of 22,000 People on the Prometheus. Then my mind started working on this...

 

Ok, let's play a game. Let's assume that the Ship's Company is 1/2 of that number (11,000)

Departments on the Prometheus:

1. Deck Department
2. Air Department
3. Engineering Department
4. Reactor Department
5. Supply Department
6. AIMD
7. Weapons Department
8. Combat Systems Department
9. Navigation Department

Maybe i'm missing something but that's the generics that i can think of. I cannot think of the exact composition of each department, in terms of how BM's in Deck, How many ABH's, ABE's or ABF's in Air, etc but by merely dividing 11k by 9 departments, you have get a command with over 1200 sailors per Department. I'll even make this thought process even worse

AIMD: Divisions

1. Maintenance Admin
2. Quality Assurance & Main Production Control
3. N/A
4. Power Plants
5. Airframes
6. Avionics
7. Weapons (repairs of weapon systems, not ordinance storage)
8. Paraloft (aka PR Shop)
9. GSE

Now each department has 1200 sailors. In this thought process, each Division in AIMD has 135 sailors. That's 45 sailors on Days, Nights and Mid shift ashore, 67 sailors on Day or Night shift underway. IN RL, a typical AIMD might have 1/2 of those numbers in total employment. I totally was giggles trying to imagine what morning muster would be like on the Prometheus with that many sailors (and that's not even mentioning The Airwing population. Clearly the 22,000 was a slight miscalculation of the numbers because all i could think of was how many folks would have to hot bunk in order to be able to sleep in their racks....?

Bonus giggles: Assuming 4 section Duty, each deployed combined Duty Section musters 5500 sailors. that's literally the norm # of sailors on a typical Nimitz-class...

 

 

 

 

[pengbuzz]

57 minutes ago, TehPW said:

(Yes, i understand that clevit that That info is highly suspect and now disproven)

 

I literally snorted hard at the notion of 22,000 People on the Prometheus. Then my mind started working on this...

 

Ok, let's play a game. Let's assume that the Ship's Company is 1/2 of that number (11,000)

Departments on the Prometheus:

1. Deck Department
2. Air Department
3. Engineering Department
4. Reactor Department
5. Supply Department
6. AIMD
7. Weapons Department
8. Combat Systems Department
9. Navigation Department

Maybe i'm missing something but that's the generics that i can think of. I cannot think of the exact composition of each department, in terms of how BM's in Deck, How many ABH's, ABE's or ABF's in Air, etc but by merely dividing 11k by 9 departments, you have get a command with over 1200 sailors per Department. I'll even make this thought process even worse

AIMD: Divisions

1. Maintenance Admin
2. Quality Assurance & Main Production Control
3. N/A
4. Power Plants
5. Airframes
6. Avionics
7. Weapons (repairs of weapon systems, not ordinance storage)
8. Paraloft (aka PR Shop)
9. GSE

Now each department has 1200 sailors. In this thought process, each Division in AIMD has 135 sailors. That's 45 sailors on Days, Nights and Mid shift ashore, 67 sailors on Day or Night shift underway. IN RL, a typical AIMD might have 1/2 of those numbers in total employment. I totally was giggles trying to imagine what morning muster would be like on the Prometheus with that many sailors (and that's not even mentioning The Airwing population. Clearly the 22,000 was a slight miscalculation of the numbers because all i could think of was how many folks would have to hot bunk in order to be able to sleep in their racks....?

Bonus giggles: Assuming 4 section Duty, each deployed combined Duty Section musters 5500 sailors. that's literally the norm # of sailors on a typical Nimitz-class...

 

 

 

 

Daedalus and Prometheus are about twice as big as a Nimitz class (at least) and with considerably far more internal space. That said, I think that 2200 might be more appropriate given those dimensions.

Edited January 30, 2022 by pengbuzz