Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Wow... any carriers by chance?

Museum ships, mind you... like the Forrest Sherman-class destroyers, Aggressive-class minesweepers, Gato-class submarines, and the Iowa and New York-class battleships.

Nothing drives home the meaning of "cramped" and "space efficient" like the engine room on a Forrest Sherman-class ship.  I've gotten to see a bit more than the average tourist by being a donor to a few different museum ships.

 

 

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Thinking about it wouldn't the VAB-2 which the FBz-99G Saubergeran was based on  be a better design ancestor of the Feios Valkyrie? FBz-99G Saubergeran like the Feios has a similar transformation and lacks a Gerwalk mode.

Rebel Zentradi stole a VF-X11 and somehow reverse engineering from that made the Feios Valkyrie.

Sometimes you get convergent design... like how the common principles of passive stealth have led to most independently-developed 5th Generation stealth fighters looking VERY similar.

[pengbuzz]

26 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Museum ships, mind you... like the Forrest Sherman-class destroyers, Aggressive-class minesweepers, Gato-class submarines, and the Iowa and New York-class battleships.

Nothing drives home the meaning of "cramped" and "space efficient" like the engine room on a Forrest Sherman-class ship.  I've gotten to see a bit more than the average tourist by being a donor to a few different museum ships.

Okay, gotcha. I've been aboard the U.S.S. Nautilus in Groton, and you want to talk about cramped!!! At 5' 10" and some considerable weight, it was all I could do just to move around on the tour!

 

26 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sometimes you get convergent design... like how the common principles of passive stealth have led to most independently-developed 5th Generation stealth fighters looking VERY similar.

Yeah... everything looks the same because it's going to be limited by the shapes and materials required by the technology. In other words: a bullet's a bullet no matter who makes it, because that's the shape that works best.

[RedWolf]

Seeing the cutscene exposition about the VF-X Raven's missions I can see why Lactence is a mad dog that needs to be put down. Some people may be able to stomach Earth supremacist attitudes but not when they threaten the security of Frontier Planets and Emigration Fleets. Ordering the Special Forces to raid the Endebald's Magic Mirror Fold Radar and Vulcan's Laser defense satellite grid would render them vulnerable to a hostile galaxy full of Stray Zentradi fleets and the Supervision Army. Not to mention the Vajra which is still considered hostile at the time.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, gotcha. I've been aboard the U.S.S. Nautilus in Groton, and you want to talk about cramped!!! At 5' 10" and some considerable weight, it was all I could do just to move around on the tour!

Submarines in general are not a tall gent's friend... I'm a bit under 2m, and let me tell you having to pretzel myself into the Gato-class USS Silversides was not a pleasant experience.  I kind of expect the Nautilus to be roomier, since it isn't wasting huge amounts of space on lead acid battery stacks and diesel fuel tanks.  The worst experience I ever had with cramped interior spaces was the lower level of the engine room on the Edson... if you want to maneuver safely in that space you'd better bloody well be boneless, two-dimensional, or a Smurf.

Kind of makes you wonder what the conditions were like on the Spacy's Oberth-class missile destroyers, given that the Spacy was apparently recruiting experienced submariners to crew including Bruno J. Global, whose previous command was the submarine Marco Polo.

 

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah... everything looks the same because it's going to be limited by the shapes and materials required by the technology. In other words: a bullet's a bullet no matter who makes it, because that's the shape that works best.

More than that, aerodynamics are a common factor too... if you want to go insanely fast in atmospheric combat the way the Feios Valkyrie does, your aerodynamic options are VERY limited.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Submarines in general are not a tall gent's friend... I'm a bit under 2m, and let me tell you having to pretzel myself into the Gato-class USS Silversides was not a pleasant experience.  I kind of expect the Nautilus to be roomier, since it isn't wasting huge amounts of space on lead acid battery stacks and diesel fuel tanks.  The worst experience I ever had with cramped interior spaces was the lower level of the engine room on the Edson... if you want to maneuver safely in that space you'd better bloody well be boneless, two-dimensional, or a Smurf.

For me, it wasn't "roomy" at all; I'm willing to bet I simply wouldn't even be able to go aboard a Gato class! But as it stood, a lot of room was taken up by the piping for the reactors (surprisingly enough).

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kind of makes you wonder what the conditions were like on the Spacy's Oberth-class missile destroyers, given that the Spacy was apparently recruiting experienced submariners to crew including Bruno J. Global, whose previous command was the submarine Marco Polo.

And Global wasn't exactly a short guy either (6'3" IIRC)! On that note: it makes sense though to recruit former submariners, as they have experience fighting in a non-linear environment (to avoid Khan's mistake in Star Trek II).

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

More than that, aerodynamics are a common factor too... if you want to go insanely fast in atmospheric combat the way the Feios Valkyrie does, your aerodynamic options are VERY limited.

That's why I mentioned about "bullet shape": while a bullet flies ballistically and not aerodynamically, my point (no pun intended) was that the shape was going to be critically important. In atmosphere, there's eventually going to be a limit to how shape and materials can hold up against friction and turbulence in the air, so how your craft is shaped is going to determine how fast you can go before you start going to gooey melty pieces.

On that note: I wonder if the NUNS would be doing research to see if they could use some sort of generated aerodynamic field to assist their valks in flight (much like the magnetic shifting system helps the parts of a valk slide past each other in transform, reducing wear and speeding up transformation)? If one could generate a field that aided in flight dynamics and could take the brunt of the friction at higher speeds rather than putting it directly on the fighter, that would be a big help IMO.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

On that note: I wonder if the NUNS would be doing research to see if they could use some sort of generated aerodynamic field to assist their valks in flight (much like the magnetic shifting system helps the parts of a valk slide past each other in transform, reducing wear and speeding up transformation)? If one could generate a field that aided in flight dynamics and could take the brunt of the friction at higher speeds rather than putting it directly on the fighter, that would be a big help IMO.

Interestingly, they have...

One of the more unconventional ways the VF-27 exploited the atypically large generator surplus it had from four Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines was using its energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier system in Fighter mode to allow it to briefly exceed the usual Mach 5+ heat resistance boundary and achieve Mach 9 at ~10km by beefing up the armor strength and using the pinpoint barrier to shield the fighter from as much air friction as possible.

Unfortunately, that draws a lot of power and can only be done for short periods.

[pengbuzz]

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Interestingly, they have...

One of the more unconventional ways the VF-27 exploited the atypically large generator surplus it had from four Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines was using its energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier system in Fighter mode to allow it to briefly exceed the usual Mach 5+ heat resistance boundary and achieve Mach 9 at ~10km by beefing up the armor strength and using the pinpoint barrier to shield the fighter from as much air friction as possible.

Unfortunately, that draws a lot of power and can only be done for short periods.

Yeah, I'd imagine that would require a lot of energy and would thus limit the duration. Useful for emergencies, but unless they could up the average power output, not much beyond that then?

Also makes me think of another possibility: putting all of that into beefing up the shield valks like the 11 and 19 have on their arm to tank shots heavier than from a fighter.

(yeah...I have an entire bag of half-baked ideas just waiting for rainy days... )

[Seto Kaiba]

56 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Also makes me think of another possibility: putting all of that into beefing up the shield valks like the 11 and 19 have on their arm to tank shots heavier than from a fighter.

Happens a few times in Macross Delta, actually...

Hayate misplaces several Battroid arms that way, trying to use his pinpoint barrier and forearm-mounted shield to block beam grenade shots from the Sv-262's beam gunpod, which inevitably mostly succeeds but at the cost of the arm blowing up too.

[pengbuzz]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Happens a few times in Macross Delta, actually...

Hayate misplaces several Battroid arms that way, trying to use his pinpoint barrier and forearm-mounted shield to block beam grenade shots from the Sv-262's beam gunpod, which inevitably mostly succeeds but at the cost of the arm blowing up too.

Ah...so he's into disarmament.

[Bolt]

Ba-da-dat !

😜

Edited January 24, 2022 by Bolt

[snakerbot]

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

though it's only mentioned on a few specific units like the SF-3A Lancer II space fighter and Queadluun-Rhea battle suit.

What about Jan in the back of the YF-19 en route to Earth? Any indication if that was equipment on the YF-19 or part of the suit he wore?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

What about Jan in the back of the YF-19 en route to Earth? Any indication if that was equipment on the YF-19 or part of the suit he wore?

His Macross Chronicle character sheet (PLUS Civilian 04A) says it was his space suit, though they don't refer to it as a cold sleep function... rather, as a "simple" sleep or "quasi" sleep (簡易のスリープ) function.  They don't elaborate further on the subject, unfortunately, and it's not covered further in the Technology sheets about spacesuits or helmets.

[deathzealot]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kind of makes you wonder what the conditions were like on the Spacy's Oberth-class missile destroyers, given that the Spacy was apparently recruiting experienced submariners to crew including Bruno J. Global, whose previous command was the submarine Marco Polo.

You know, one of these days I am going to go through with my plan on writing a fanfiction that really explores the Oberth Class before the first war. Maybe follow the Goddard when it went after the Anti-UN Controlled Tsiolkovsky. Though reading the Macross Mecha Manuel entry on the Oberth Class didn't the Tsiolkovsky destroy the Oberth as it was evacuating the Mars Base? Or was that something from Robotech?

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

You know, one of these days I am going to go through with my plan on writing a fanfiction that really explores the Oberth Class before the first war. Maybe follow the Goddard when it went after the Anti-UN Controlled Tsiolkovsky. Though reading the Macross Mecha Manuel entry on the Oberth Class didn't the Tsiolkovsky destroy the Oberth as it was evacuating the Mars Base? Or was that something from Robotech?

After some quick double-checking, it appears to may be conflating events from the official Macross timeline with events from the Robotech short comic "Mars Base One".

In Macross, the fate of the Oberth-class's namesake ship Oberth is unknown... but she was likely one of the hundred-plus sunk during the First Space War.

In Robotech's "Mars Base One" short comic, the Oberth was sunk in orbit of Mars by a Zentradi warship performing advance reconnaissance in 2005 while attempting to evacuate the personnel remaining at Mars Base.

 

Spoiler

"Mars Base One" was a short comic published as a part of (read: as padding for) the five-issue Robotech: Invasion limited series.  Robotech's "New Generation" was never a very popular title, so they added a "Macross Saga" short story to it to give it more of a draw.  

Its story involved the construction of the titular Mars Base (Macross's Salla Base) on Mars between 2003 and 2005 not as a scientific outpost but as a clandestine offworld base engaged in development and testing of weapons of mass destruction.  Said testing drew the attention of a Zentradi warship that was scouting the solar system ahead of their main force, leading it to attack the base, triggering an evacuation to the nearby Oberth that ended with the Oberth being sunk by the Zentradi ship and the remaining soldiers activating a prototype Grand Cannon system to sink the Zentradi ship in return before the surviving personnel wandered out into the Martian desert to die after life support at the base failed.

Completely pointless, as per usual for Robotech.

 

[deathzealot]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

After some quick double-checking, it appears to may be conflating events from the official Macross timeline with events from the Robotech short comic "Mars Base One".

In Macross, the fate of the Oberth-class's namesake ship Oberth is unknown... but she was likely one of the hundred-plus sunk during the First Space War.

In Robotech's "Mars Base One" short comic, the Oberth was sunk in orbit of Mars by a Zentradi warship performing advance reconnaissance in 2005 while attempting to evacuate the personnel remaining at Mars Base.

Shakes head. But the whole bit about the Oberth being destroyed by Anti-UN Terrorists was before the Mars Base One comic even came out. So where did that come from?

EDIT: Now that I am thinking about it. I think it was either one of the early Robotech RP Books or some sort fanon timeline that someone made way back when.

Edited January 24, 2022 by deathzealot

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Shakes head. But the whole bit about the Oberth being destroyed by Anti-UN Terrorists was before the Mars Base One comic even came out. So where did that come from?

Not a clue.  Not Macross though, AFAIK.

From the oldest versions of the lore, the only time the first space destroyer Oberth is mentioned are the start of construction in 2003 and its commissioning in 2005.

The only two ships of the class noted to have seen combat prior to the First Space War were the Oberth-class's second ship Goddard and third ship Tsiolkovsky, which fought each other after the Tsiolkovsky was hijacked by the Anti-Unification Forces and used to attack the Mars Return Fleet.

Other than that, the only other two named Oberth-class ships in official material are the Miranda and Akishima, which were sunk in the opening battle of the First Space War.

[twich]

Does it not seem odd to anyone else that we have not seen any new information about the mecha from the second Macross Delta movie?  It has been a few months since release and we still don't really have any information.  Even the VF-31AX Kairos Plus, we can only speculate as to what its stats are.  Why are the rail guns beefier?  Are they a larger caliber?  The VF-31A kairos had 27mm railguns, the VF-31 Siegfried had 25mm railguns.  The designation on the guns of the toy lead us to believe it is a LM-25, which is the same as the Siegfried, but why is it so much larger and longer?  

I am truly curious as to the stats of the SV-303 and how only a YF-29 piloted by Max Jenius has any chance against it?  Are people thinking it is even more powerful than a Earth based VF-24?

I know this has probably been discussed at length, but man, no info is painful!

Twich

[sketchley]

55 minutes ago, twich said:

Does it not seem odd to anyone else that we have not seen any new information about the mecha from the second Macross Delta movie?

It seems to be par for the course for Delta.  ... even Frontier.

If things follow the usual pattern, it won't be until they release the models that we'll start to see stats in detail.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, twich said:

Does it not seem odd to anyone else that we have not seen any new information about the mecha from the second Macross Delta movie?  It has been a few months since release and we still don't really have any information.

It's been quite a while since Frontier, so I'd have to look at the relative release dates to be sure... but my gut feeling is that in this specific case (Absolute Live!!!!!!) there's been a rather surprising dearth of information about the new mechanical designs in the movie.  I'd have kind of expected a major feature in Great Mechanics or something, but all we got was an 8 pager crammed into the back of the winter issue.

 

9 hours ago, twich said:

  Even the VF-31AX Kairos Plus, we can only speculate as to what its stats are.  Why are the rail guns beefier?  Are they a larger caliber?  The VF-31A kairos had 27mm railguns, the VF-31 Siegfried had 25mm railguns.  The designation on the guns of the toy lead us to believe it is a LM-25, which is the same as the Siegfried, but why is it so much larger and longer?  

I noticed that on the toy thread... with the barrels beefed up like that, I was expecting a much larger round for greater stopping power, especially since the VF-31AX was hacked together for actual combat not for airshow use.

 

9 hours ago, twich said:

I am truly curious as to the stats of the SV-303 and how only a YF-29 piloted by Max Jenius has any chance against it?  Are people thinking it is even more powerful than a Earth based VF-24?

If Max's YF-29 is what we've been led to believe it is - essentially unmodified from the original Macross Frontier fleet specification - then they can't be that powerful.  

Especially if the VF-31AX can fight them, since what little data we have suggests they're just Kairos airframes with Siegfried parts and higher-quality fold quartz in their fold wave systems.

 

9 hours ago, twich said:

I know this has probably been discussed at length, but man, no info is painful!

It's irritating, at least.  Then again, when it came to the Macross Delta TV series we didn't start seeing properly detailed stats until - IIRC - the TOMYTEC model kits dropped.  That was literally the entire reason I bought them.

[aurance]

I’m mainly curious about that weird beam gun in the weapon container. What its use case is.

[aurance]

Presumably the paper specs of -303, -29, and -31AX are within some margin where a skilled pilot (or AI) could match with each other with a degree of story tension. Probably the -24 as well, towards the top end of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, aurance said:

Presumably the paper specs of -303, -29, and -31AX are within some margin where a skilled pilot (or AI) could match with each other with a degree of story tension. Probably the -24 as well, towards the top end of that.

If I had to guess, I'd assume that the VF-31AX Kairos Plus's specifications will probably not be significantly different from those of the VF-31 Siegfried.  After all, what we know of them is that they were VF-31A airframes that were retrofitted with spare parts from the Siegfrieds that were destroyed earlier.  The only upgrades specifically mentioned are the fold quartz used in the fold wave system and the ordnance container w/ beam gunpod being exchanged for a more powerful model.

With that as the baseline, I'm inclined to suspect that the Sv-303 Vivasvat is probably not going to be all that impressive either.  Maybe VF-27 level, given that Max supposedly beats them handily in a YF-29 that was no different in spec to the original type.

[JB0]

16 hours ago, twich said:

I am truly curious as to the stats of the SV-303 and how only a YF-29 piloted by Max Jenius has any chance against it?  Are people thinking it is even more powerful than a Earth based VF-24?

In fairness, I'd put less weight on the YF-29 part of that equation and more on the Max part. He could outfly them in a literal cardboard box.

[Podtastic]

On 1/23/2022 at 8:51 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

There's a limit to the number of troops a ship can actually utilize.

Once every duty station is fully manned for all shifts that the ship's duty roster has and there are pilots for all of the mecha the ship can carry while also carrying enough supplies to sustain operations for the intended duration, any troops above and beyond that number are resources that can't be properly utilized.  The Zentradi can't repair mecha or ships, and storing lots of replacement mecha would curtail the storage for consumables significantly.  It's easier, faster, and more resource-efficient to equip ships with what they need and to simply rotate depleted units off the front lines for replenishment than provide ships with an excess of resources that could be lost in combat before they could be utilized.

This seems to imply that there are no Zentraedi " marine" infantry legions. If their entirely mechanised what was the point in making them giants in the first place?

I like the idea of all the larger ships being able to deploy thousands of infantry in addition to mecha via the dropships. We know from the series that a standard Zentraedi rifle is powerful enough to down a valkyrie, so that's a lot of additional firepower. Keeping up with moving Regults is a problem so they would need some kind of troop transports. Mb something like a Zentraedi hover version of the German halftrack. (Even if impractical that sure would look great in anime or a diorama.)

[JB0]

35 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

This seems to imply that there are no Zentraedi " marine" infantry legions. If their entirely mechanised what was the point in making them giants in the first place?

It could easily be that the protoculture initially thought that zentradi infantry was a good idea and changed their minds in favor of all-mechanized after the size decision was "set in stone".

[Seto Kaiba]

19 minutes ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, I'd put less weight on the YF-29 part of that equation and more on the Max part. He could outfly them in a literal cardboard box.

Wouldn't a doghouse be more appropriate, if he's a flying ace?

Cardboard boxes are for espionage.  Everyone knows that. 😉 

 

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

This seems to imply that there are no Zentraedi " marine" infantry legions.

What possible use would massed infantry be in a fleet engagement where two fleets of spaceships are shooting at each other from hundreds or thousands of kilometers away in a No Quarter battle in deep space?

It's not like they can roll down a window and stick a rifle out or march over to the enemy fleet on foot.

There's very little reason to even consider boarding actions if your goal is to simply destroy your enemy utterly and if your goal is to board an enemy ship mecha have been shown to be effective in that regard.

The standard Zentradi approach to finding an enemy planet is to roll up with a Main Fleet and convert it into a parking lot with massed bombardment, no need to land any ground forces.

There may, at one point, have been a call for Zentradi infantry but they seem to be an all but exclusively mechanized force by the time humanity encounters them.  The only times we see Zentradi infantry during the First Space War are minimal security details aboard ships or off-duty mecha pilots reacting to threats inside their ship.

 

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

If their entirely mechanised what was the point in making them giants in the first place?

Perhaps there was a point in the Protoculture's history when Zentradi existed but their mecha did not, and they were used as infantry instead.

Maybe it was necessary to make them super-resilient to the point that they shrug off 55mm cannon fire.

Maybe the Protoculture just thought it was super intimidating to be ten meters tall.

Maybe the Protoculture found it easier to dehumanize them if it was immediately obvious they were non-Protoculture?

Whatever the original reason was, it's been lost to time since the Protoculture went extinct.

 

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

I like the idea of all the larger ships being able to deploy thousands of infantry in addition to mecha via the dropships. We know from the series that a standard Zentraedi rifle is powerful enough to down a valkyrie, so that's a lot of additional firepower. Keeping up with moving Regults is a problem so they would need some kind of troop transports. Mb something like a Zentraedi hover version of the German halftrack. (Even if impractical that sure would look great in anime or a diorama.)

That'd just take away from their ability to deploy flight-capable armored vehicles that are even more heavily armed and not significantly larger.

[Podtastic]

17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The standard Zentradi approach to finding an enemy planet is to roll up with a Main Fleet and convert it into a parking lot with massed bombardment, no need to land any ground forces.

Is that standard though? It seems extreme.

Surely smaller fleets get deployed on independent missions where they would need to deploy ground forces.

There must be situations in a galactic conflict where you need to secure resources, technology, information etc, and the answer isn't just to atomise everything.

And the majority of the Zentraedi mecha are land vehicles, the Regults. Why have such large ground forces if they are unnecessary?

 

[pengbuzz]

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wouldn't a doghouse be more appropriate, if he's a flying ace?

Cardboard boxes are for espionage.  Everyone knows that. 😉 

Did you remember to talk to the Colonel about that on the CODEC? ☺️

 

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What possible use would massed infantry be in a fleet engagement where two fleets of spaceships are shooting at each other from hundreds or thousands of kilometers away in a No Quarter battle in deep space?

It's not like they can roll down a window and stick a rifle out or march over to the enemy fleet on foot.

There's very little reason to even consider boarding actions if your goal is to simply destroy your enemy utterly and if your goal is to board an enemy ship mecha have been shown to be effective in that regard.

Zentraedi drive-by?

 

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The standard Zentradi approach to finding an enemy planet is to roll up with a Main Fleet and convert it into a parking lot with massed bombardment, no need to land any ground forces.

There may, at one point, have been a call for Zentradi infantry but they seem to be an all but exclusively mechanized force by the time humanity encounters them.  The only times we see Zentradi infantry during the First Space War are minimal security details aboard ships or off-duty mecha pilots reacting to threats inside their ship.

I suspect as mecha became more and more used, they really didn't need infantry forces. Not to mention a mech could carry more firepower and armor anyways, plus increase effective range.

 

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Perhaps there was a point in the Protoculture's history when Zentradi existed but their mecha did not, and they were used as infantry instead.

Maybe it was necessary to make them super-resilient to the point that they shrug off 55mm cannon fire.

Maybe the Protoculture just thought it was super intimidating to be ten meters tall.

Maybe the Protoculture found it easier to dehumanize them if it was immediately obvious they were non-Protoculture?

Whatever the original reason was, it's been lost to time since the Protoculture went extinct.

I'll take "All of the Above" for $500, Alex. 😉

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

Is that standard though? It seems extreme.

It probably wasn't the standard in the Protoculture's heyday.

It likely became a part of the Zentradi's standard playbook after the Protoculture rescinded the directive "Do not interfere with the Protoculture" to combat the Supervision Army's forces, which grew by capturing and brainwashing the populations of entire planets.

 

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

Surely smaller fleets get deployed on independent missions where they would need to deploy ground forces.

What independent missions?  The Zentradi have been operating on a single directive for the last 500,000 years: Search and Destroy.

Branch fleets of hundreds of warships seem to be the smallest default unit the Zentradi send to a theater.  The standard response to a force of that size meeting an enemy that it can't overcome?  Summon Bigger Fish.  They'll call in reinforcements until they find a hammer big enough to crack that nut, like how Vrlitwhai called in Quamzin, then Laplamiz, and eventually referred the matter up the chain of command to Boddole Zer himself.  As we saw in DYRL?, when an enemy fleet is found by a branch fleet force, the standard approach is to roll up with your entire main fleet and try to wipe them out in one go.  The same was true in Macross 2036 and Eternal Love Song too.

 

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

There must be situations in a galactic conflict where you need to secure resources, technology, information etc, and the answer isn't just to atomise everything.

Well, no... of course there aren't.

The Zentradi have no concept of creative actions or thoughts, so their interest in information only extends as far as actionable intelligence... and you can get that from the wrecks of enemy ships after they've been shot to pieces.

Likewise, they have no need to secure resources or technology because all of their logistical needs are met by the millions of automated factory satellites the Protoculture made for the purpose.  Those factory satellites autonomously handle every step of the manufacturing process from mining the raw materials all the way to assembling the completed product for delivery to a stockpile or fleet.

So, yeah... the answer is to just atomize everything, because the Protoculture's last directive to them was to destroy the Supervision Army.

 

9 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

And the majority of the Zentraedi mecha are land vehicles, the Regults. Why have such large ground forces if they are unnecessary?

Having legs doesn't necessarily make it a land vehicle... the Regult is actually noted to be not very good at walking.

They're mainly used as fighters in space battles.

[Podtastic]

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They're mainly used as fighters in space battles.

But is that primarily what they are designed for? Why have those landing craft then?

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Regult is actually noted to be not very good at walking.

Sounds like a stupid note. Design something that looks great and then say it works like crap.

What a waste. The Regult should be fast and agile on its feet. Able to run, hop and leap around opponents like an insect.

I cringe whenever I see those fanimations where they clunk around like AT-STs.

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What independent missions?  The Zentradi have been operating on a single directive for the last 500,000 years: Search and Destroy

Properly developed the Zentraedi have awesome potential aa an army of intergalactic conquest. Their being wasted in this narrow setting against such uninteresting foes.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Podtastic

[RedWolf]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wouldn't a doghouse be more appropriate, if he's a flying ace?

Cardboard boxes are for espionage.  Everyone knows that. 😉 

 

Max is totally the master of subterfuge. He thought his VF-1 is inconspicuous wearing clothes of a Zentradi whom he nicked him from while in a toilet. His disguise sense is inherited by his daughter Mylene. She puts shades on her pet rat too.

 

 

.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Did you remember to talk to the Colonel about that on the CODEC? ☺️

Erm... no.

FISSION MAILED

 

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Zentraedi drive-by?

I have to admit, the idea left me with the strange mental image of a bunch of Zentradi wiseguys all leaning out the windows to shoot like mafiosi in a car chase.

 

 

4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

But is that primarily what they are designed for? Why have those landing craft then?

Exactly what any of the Zentradi equipment was originally designed for is a question to someone who's been dead for half a million years.  What they're used for now is primarily space combat.  Remember, the equipment the Zentradi force use hasn't changed in that half-million year span except for various technologies that've become lost because their factory satellites were destroyed (like thermonuclear reaction weaponry).

The descent pods exist for the sake of transporting the Battle Pods in bulk, because they can't make reentry or return to orbit under their own power.

 

4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Sounds like a stupid note. Design something that looks great and then say it works like crap.

What a waste. The Regult should be fast and agile on its feet. Able to run, hop and leap around opponents like an insect.

I cringe whenever I see those fanimations where they clunk around like AT-STs.

Remember, this is still lowest-bidder military hardware even if it is made autonomously by robotic factories.

The Regult was a no-frills, no-modcons, heavily economized for large-scale mass production military vehicle whose designers gave exactly zero ****s about the lives or comfort of the Zentradi piloting it.  Its main problem is that, to keep costs down, there is very little onboard automation.  Most of its systems are manually operated by a Zentradi pilot who's in a cramped and uncomfortable position inside of its cockpit.  It was designed to imitate the form of a Vajra larva, which gets around mainly by hopping and flying, which is also the way the Regult mainly gets around.  Its high center of gravity makes it liable to tip over in collisions and so on, so its pilot has to exercise great care.

 

4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Properly developed the Zentraedi have awesome potential aa an army of intergalactic conquest. Their being wasted in this narrow setting against such uninteresting foes.

You've missed the point of them completely, I'm afraid.

The Zentradi weren't created to be - and aren't - a super cool, awesome army of intergalactic conquest.  They were an entire race of disposable people created by the Protoculture's two sociopolitical factions for a single cruel purpose: to fight their brutal, pointless, incredibly short-sighted civil war for them.  The Protoculture were so fixated on destroying their own people over petty differences that they raised up an unstoppable force of destruction, armed it so well for the purpose that it could fight into eternity if need be, and turned the nightmare they'd created loose on their fellows.  Initially, the story was that they achieved mutually assured destruction just in case this Cold War allegory isn't obvious enough.  In practical terms, this isn't G.I. Joe... this is borderline Lovecraft.  The Zentradi's genre is cosmic horror, not action-adventure.  

Even though humanity were able to turn part of one Zentradi fleet to their purpose and teach them there is more to life than war, there are still thousands upon thousands of fleets out there, composed of millions of warships, and the only thing protecting humanity's fragile and nascent interstellar civilization from utter ruin is that the Zentradi don't know that we exist yet.  The New UN Government takes great pains to keep it that way, because a single main fleet is a force on such a cyclopean scale that they can't be fought on an even footing EVER.

The tragedy of the Zentradi is that they're a race of thinking, feeling, sentient beings who were created for brutal, short, senseless lives of violence in the name of masters who are long dead and can't even contemplate ending the violence.  They are a senseless force of largely indiscriminate destruction unleashed upon the galaxy by the Protoculture's arrogance, and there's the possibility they might be unwittingly protecting the galaxy from something even worse.

[pengbuzz]

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Erm... no.

FISSION MAILED

Do you still need scissors for Hari Kiri rock? 61?

 

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I have to admit, the idea left me with the strange mental image of a bunch of Zentradi wiseguys all leaning out the windows to shoot like mafiosi in a car chase.

Playing Woke Up This Morning in the background (in Zentraedi), right?

 

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Exactly what any of the Zentradi equipment was originally designed for is a question to someone who's been dead for half a million years.  What they're used for now is primarily space combat.  Remember, the equipment the Zentradi force use hasn't changed in that half-million year span except for various technologies that've become lost because their factory satellites were destroyed (like thermonuclear reaction weaponry).

The descent pods exist for the sake of transporting the Battle Pods in bulk, because they can't make reentry or return to orbit under their own power.

Remember, this is still lowest-bidder military hardware even if it is made autonomously by robotic factories.

The Regult was a no-frills, no-modcons, heavily economized for large-scale mass production military vehicle whose designers gave exactly zero ****s about the lives or comfort of the Zentradi piloting it.  Its main problem is that, to keep costs down, there is very little onboard automation.  Most of its systems are manually operated by a Zentradi pilot who's in a cramped and uncomfortable position inside of its cockpit.  It was designed to imitate the form of a Vajra larva, which gets around mainly by hopping and flying, which is also the way the Regult mainly gets around.  Its high center of gravity makes it liable to tip over in collisions and so on, so its pilot has to exercise great care.

Combining these points together: could their original operations have had to do with securing something involving the Vajra? Seeing as Protoculture were seemingly obsessed with them, I wonder if their civil war early on  required craft designed to seem "normal" amongst the Vajra?

 

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You've missed the point of them completely, I'm afraid.

The Zentradi weren't created to be - and aren't - a super cool, awesome army of intergalactic conquest.  They were an entire race of disposable people created by the Protoculture's two sociopolitical factions for a single cruel purpose: to fight their brutal, pointless, incredibly short-sighted civil war for them.  The Protoculture were so fixated on destroying their own people over petty differences that they raised up an unstoppable force of destruction, armed it so well for the purpose that it could fight into eternity if need be, and turned the nightmare they'd created loose on their fellows.  Initially, the story was that they achieved mutually assured destruction just in case this Cold War allegory isn't obvious enough.  In practical terms, this isn't G.I. Joe... this is borderline Lovecraft.  The Zentradi's genre is cosmic horror, not action-adventure.  

Even though humanity were able to turn part of one Zentradi fleet to their purpose and teach them there is more to life than war, there are still thousands upon thousands of fleets out there, composed of millions of warships, and the only thing protecting humanity's fragile and nascent interstellar civilization from utter ruin is that the Zentradi don't know that we exist yet.  The New UN Government takes great pains to keep it that way, because a single main fleet is a force on such a cyclopean scale that they can't be fought on an even footing EVER.

The tragedy of the Zentradi is that they're a race of thinking, feeling, sentient beings who were created for brutal, short, senseless lives of violence in the name of masters who are long dead and can't even contemplate ending the violence.  They are a senseless force of largely indiscriminate destruction unleashed upon the galaxy by the Protoculture's arrogance, and there's the possibility they might be unwittingly protecting the galaxy from something even worse.

  Tragedy upon tragedy, given that those that are free have the capability to go on to some tremendous things (Millia comes predominantly to mind). The only thing that did anything to help end it (and even then, just locally at Earth!), was Minmay's singing. And that's not a guarantee when dealing with the Zentraedi.

Sometimes, I wonder if it were possible in story to be able to use the old Protoculture systems to transmit a peace message to them... but I think it's been pointed out that orders for them to stop didn't work when repeatedly sent.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Do you still need scissors for Hari Kiri rock? 61?

Nothing will ever top the matter-of-fact, utterly boisterous delivery of "Nanomachines, son!".

(Revengence is the best Metal Gear.  Fight me.)

 

4 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Combining these points together: could their original operations have had to do with securing something involving the Vajra? Seeing as Protoculture were seemingly obsessed with them, I wonder if their civil war early on  required craft designed to seem "normal" amongst the Vajra?

Probably not, I would say.

Macross Chronicle and other sources have waxed downright lyrical about the Protoculture's admiration, bordering on reverence, for the Vajra.  The favored explanation among the current sources seems to be that the Protoculture developed their overtechnology from the study of Vajra carcasses they found and that they designed their war machines based upon those advances in imitation of the Vajra's own forms seemingly in an application of "nature is the best engineer".  For a given value of "nature", considering the Vajra evolved to the point of being able to take direct control over their own evolution in the distant past.  The Vajra were an ancient and estalished interstellar species when the Protoculture's civilization was taking its first hesitant steps into space.  Presented with the opportunity to study a far more advanced species, the Protoculture would naturally hit on the idea of copying the Vajra's biotechnological "designs" because those were already proven by the Vajra's continued use of them.

 

4 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Sometimes, I wonder if it were possible in story to be able to use the old Protoculture systems to transmit a peace message to them... but I think it's been pointed out that orders for them to stop didn't work when repeatedly sent.

Assuming such a system exists, and that the Zentradi would even recognize or understand such a message 500,000 years or acknowledge its authority 500,000 years after their creators disappeared.

The Protoculture tried something similar in Macross Delta's backstory, using their delta wave system to try and bring a halt to the fighting by creating a galaxy-wide hive mind, but apparently decided the risk of Your Head A'splode was too great to turn it on.

[pengbuzz]

25 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nothing will ever top the matter-of-fact, utterly boisterous delivery of "Nanomachines, son!".

(Revengence is the best Metal Gear.  Fight me.)

MGS 1 was the best. Cardboard boxes at 40 paces.

25 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably not, I would say.

Macross Chronicle and other sources have waxed downright lyrical about the Protoculture's admiration, bordering on reverence, for the Vajra.  The favored explanation among the current sources seems to be that the Protoculture developed their overtechnology from the study of Vajra carcasses they found and that they designed their war machines based upon those advances in imitation of the Vajra's own forms seemingly in an application of "nature is the best engineer".  For a given value of "nature", considering the Vajra evolved to the point of being able to take direct control over their own evolution in the distant past.  The Vajra were an ancient and estalished interstellar species when the Protoculture's civilization was taking its first hesitant steps into space.  Presented with the opportunity to study a far more advanced species, the Protoculture would naturally hit on the idea of copying the Vajra's biotechnological "designs" because those were already proven by the Vajra's continued use of them.

Good points.

 

25 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Assuming such a system exists, and that the Zentradi would even recognize or understand such a message 500,000 years or acknowledge its authority 500,000 years after their creators disappeared.

The Protoculture tried something similar in Macross Delta's backstory, using their delta wave system to try and bring a halt to the fighting by creating a galaxy-wide hive mind, but apparently decided the risk of Your Head A'splode was too great to turn it on.

I assume that because the Protoculture must have had at least a communications hardline to the Zentraedi to issue orders that wouldn't be intercepted by their enemies.

Hmm... maybe instead of "hive mind: like they were thinking, minimize the risk by only doing it long enough for a "push notification" of "would you stop killing everything in sight already?!"