Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[RedWolf]

13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In Macross, having a fold receptor factor means you're... slightly less susceptible to falling into an uncontrollable roid rage when exposed to certain kinds of biological fold waves?

Berger Stone implies Fold Receptors are increasing in the population but NUN kept mum about it. Windermereans have strikingly similar ability as the Nomes and the Windermereans Fold Receptors in their Runes. Macross Chronicle describes the Nomes or Shrine Maiden ability as Space-Time Resonance Ability. 

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

That's what I thought:  on that note, I consider tweaked to be enhancing what's already there with adjustments, as opposed to modded.

(I could totally see Roy as being a tuner type of guy with a sweet ride! lol Anyone for "the Fast and the Furious" with the cast of Macross? )

I guess it's a matter of perspective there.

Tuning isn't so much enhancing performance as it is adjusting calibratable tolerances to reduce the safety margins put in place to protect the hardware.  You can't tune past what the hardware is physically capable of, but you can make it run closer to the red line at the expense of increased maintenance requirements, reduced part lifespan, etc.  Usually it goes the other way, detuning engines and so on to make those expensive parts last longer at the expense of reduced performance, reduce waste byproducts, etc.

 

25 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Agreed; that's why we began working it in as a baseline stealth fighter for the units. Adam (our GM) didn't want only a few characters having it. Not to mention we were going up against the Mardook from M2 as the main baddies in our campaign (GIlgamesh armor= shredded space alloy).

There's nothing quite so stimulating in a game as an underdog victory.  

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I guess it's a matter of perspective there.

Tuning isn't so much enhancing performance as it is adjusting calibratable tolerances to reduce the safety margins put in place to protect the hardware.  You can't tune past what the hardware is physically capable of, but you can make it run closer to the red line at the expense of increased maintenance requirements, reduced part lifespan, etc.  Usually it goes the other way, detuning engines and so on to make those expensive parts last longer at the expense of reduced performance, reduce waste byproducts, etc.

Okay, I see what you're saying here: so in the case of Roy's VF-1S, they adjusted it to run as close as they dared to the red line to match Roy's level of capability and performance as a pilot (as least as much as they could without tanking the craft). Given what they were up against during SW1, he probably needed every bit of performance that the fighter could deliver.

Trying not to be dense here... sometimes my mindset can be a bit wonky to say the least.

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There's nothing quite so stimulating in a game as an underdog victory.  

Definitely! We had plenty of those, even with the Wraithverge in play (actual got the head of my mech shot off during a combat! THAT was embarrassing! O.o )

[darkranger12]

6 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Berger Stone implies Fold Receptors are increasing in the population but NUN kept mum about it.

What does this mean for the general population?

[Seto Kaiba]

36 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

What does this mean for the general population?

For now, basically nothing... assuming it's even true to begin with.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

What does this mean for the general population?

Er...better fold reception?

(improved FoldTV™ image, sound and channel selection? O.o )

[Knight26]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I guess it's a matter of perspective there.

Tuning isn't so much enhancing performance as it is adjusting calibratable tolerances to reduce the safety margins put in place to protect the hardware.  You can't tune past what the hardware is physically capable of, but you can make it run closer to the red line at the expense of increased maintenance requirements, reduced part lifespan, etc.  Usually it goes the other way, detuning engines and so on to make those expensive parts last longer at the expense of reduced performance, reduce waste byproducts, etc.

 

There's nothing quite so stimulating in a game as an underdog victory.  

In short, yes.

Tuned engines and systems are pushed to their absolute engineering limit.  This limits lifespan and increases maintenance demands significantly.  This is one of the reasons why military aircraft have such long maintenance times per flight hours, especially after any kind of combat manuevers, less so after say, a cross country flight.

Detuning was common for export aircraft and vehicles as foreign customers typically didn't have the supply train that backup to get parts again quickly.  Whether the hardware stayed detuned however...

One of the things that people wonder about with the Iranian F-14s for instance, is whether they stayed detuned, or did the Iranians bring them back up to Navy spec.  Few of them are even able to fly at this point, despite having zero trap hours, but then the Grumman trained maintainers mostly fled with the Shaw.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Knight26 said:

In short, yes.

Tuned engines and systems are pushed to their absolute engineering limit.  This limits lifespan and increases maintenance demands significantly.  This is one of the reasons why military aircraft have such long maintenance times per flight hours, especially after any kind of combat manuevers, less so after say, a cross country flight.

Detuning was common for export aircraft and vehicles as foreign customers typically didn't have the supply train that backup to get parts again quickly.  Whether the hardware stayed detuned however...

One of the things that people wonder about with the Iranian F-14s for instance, is whether they stayed detuned, or did the Iranians bring them back up to Navy spec.  Few of them are even able to fly at this point, despite having zero trap hours, but then the Grumman trained maintainers mostly fled with the Shaw.

Moral of the story: you cane tune a plane, but you can't tuna fish.

*runs*

[RedWolf]

 

Okay I get the Battle Suit form of the Final Weapon in Macross M3 as a final boss.

 

 

It's the other mode that serves as a Jammer that is weird to me.

 

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

17 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Tuned engines and systems are pushed to their absolute engineering limit.  This limits lifespan and increases maintenance demands significantly.  This is one of the reasons why military aircraft have such long maintenance times per flight hours, especially after any kind of combat manuevers, less so after say, a cross country flight.

Detuning was common for export aircraft and vehicles as foreign customers typically didn't have the supply train that backup to get parts again quickly.  Whether the hardware stayed detuned however...

It's interesting to note that the New UN Government seems to have mandated various forms of detuning on certain export variants... particularly where the VF-19 is concerned.

The New UN Forces in the Frontier era also seem to be fans of detuning in general, apparently just to reduce operating costs.  The FF-2550F engines adopted by the VF-171EX and VF-171-III are detuned almost 20% compared to the ones used on the VF-19.  The VF-171's FF-2110A engines seem to be detuned versions of the FF-2100X, also by about 20%.

I guess even the New UN Forces of the wealthiest emigrant fleets are still fundamentally cost-conscious.

 

EDIT: Apparently this post pushed me to "Super Dimension Member"?

Edited January 12, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Knight26]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's interesting to note that the New UN Government seems to have mandated various forms of detuning on certain export variants... particularly where the VF-19 is concerned.

The New UN Forces in the Frontier era also seem to be fans of detuning in general, apparently just to reduce operating costs.  The FF-2550F engines adopted by the VF-171EX and VF-171-III are detuned almost 20% compared to the ones used on the VF-19.  The VF-171's FF-2110A engines seem to be detuned versions of the FF-2100X, also by about 20%.

I guess even the New UN Forces of the wealthiest emigrant fleets are still fundamentally cost-conscious.

 

EDIT: Apparently this post pushed me to "Super Dimension Member"?

It actually makes some sense.  While in transit resources would be limited so you would want to detune the engines during normal operations to lengthen their lifespan.  Once you reach a new colony world and set up mining and other resource gathering  tune those engines back up to full since you will have plenty of resources to exploit.

[pengbuzz]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's interesting to note that the New UN Government seems to have mandated various forms of detuning on certain export variants... particularly where the VF-19 is concerned.

The New UN Forces in the Frontier era also seem to be fans of detuning in general, apparently just to reduce operating costs.  The FF-2550F engines adopted by the VF-171EX and VF-171-III are detuned almost 20% compared to the ones used on the VF-19.  The VF-171's FF-2110A engines seem to be detuned versions of the FF-2100X, also by about 20%.

I guess even the New UN Forces of the wealthiest emigrant fleets are still fundamentally cost-conscious.

I'd have to guess that since it takes time, materials and labor for their Three-Star Factory ships to make the replacement parts, they would just as soon try to keep the docket clear for more needful things by not requiring those parts so often. Not to mention the down-time it would take to replace worn parts, as well as wear and tear on the airframe with tearing it down to remove and replace them. I would also venture it takes time and effort to re-calibrate the engines and other systems after replacement;  in a couple of Macross 7 episodes, when maintenance was being done on Basara's Valkyrie, the technicians  were talking about metal fatigue in the various components as they were working

 

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

EDIT: Apparently this post pushed me to "Super Dimension Member"?

Congrats! BTW: thanks again for the advice on the quotations; posting is much  easier now!

[RedWolf]

Which reminds me the VF-17 of Diamond Force under Kiryu engine output was increased by 20%. By the time of Macross Dynamite 7 the VF-171 should be starting to be distributed among fleets as a replacement for the VF-11. However we see Teal versions of the VF-17 flying by. Diamond Force has already switched to the VF-22S which is a special operations fighter. 

I do wonder if one day we will see either the Zentradi Variable Glaug or Feios Valkyrie in a future anime series. The Zentradi has kinda been mooks  in Frontier and Delta. Having them will make Zenteadi more of threat. The Variable Glaug is a Battle Pod concept VF. While the Feios much like the VF-22 it's design was inspired by the Queadluun series Bartle Suit. However the Variable Glaug works better with Meltrandi piloting it. While the Feios is for Miclone sized Zentradi.

 

[Bolt]

28 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Diamond Force has already switched to the VF-22S which is a special operations fighter. 

Considering M&M also had each their own, in customary colors. I can't help but wonder if they were a bit ahead of the curve, as far as accusations of new VF's. Considering their status and such. Granted, I'm sure Max was subject to nuns bureaucracy as any macross commander. Nevertheless, i wonder if they had "preferred " treatment in the slightest.

 

34 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

I do wonder if one day we will see either the Zentradi Variable Glaug or Feios Valkyrie in a future anime series.

This has been discussed before. But, those Queadluun Regults , ((ZBP-106 Rigādo) we saw in the first episode of Delta, I'm assuming were a General Galaxy creation. Piloted by Zentradi (as opposed to Meltran pilots) , designed to bring the Regult up to Queedluun capabilities. Is there technical data on those or the improved maneuvering 104 ?

[azrael]

23 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Considering M&M also had each their own, in customary colors. I can't help but wonder if they were a bit ahead of the curve, as far as accusations of new VF's. Considering their status and such. Granted, I'm sure Max was subject to nuns bureaucracy as any macross commander. Nevertheless, i wonder if they had "preferred " treatment in the slightest.

Probably not. More of a need for newer VFs. If there was little need to newer tech, then why spend the money? M7 never had a need for newer VF-tech since they didn't encounter many significant threats until the Protodevlin. And obviously, the VF-17 didn't live up to the Jenius' needs so they went with a VF-22. Everyone would love newer tech, but do you really need it?

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I'd have to guess that since it takes time, materials and labor for their Three-Star Factory ships to make the replacement parts, they would just as soon try to keep the docket clear for more needful things by not requiring those parts so often. Not to mention the down-time it would take to replace worn parts, as well as wear and tear on the airframe with tearing it down to remove and replace them. I would also venture it takes time and effort to re-calibrate the engines and other systems after replacement;  in a couple of Macross 7 episodes, when maintenance was being done on Basara's Valkyrie, the technicians  were talking about metal fatigue in the various components as they were working

Naturally, though you'd expect the fleet arsenal to maintain a reasonable stock level of replacement parts for routine servicing of aircraft.

Basara's VF-19 Custom "Fire Valkyrie" is an extreme case, as one of the few true "Ace Custom" units that has well and truly been modified to exceed the performance (and likely the design tolerances) of the aircraft it started life as.  (Macross Chronicle suggests Basara's VF-19 started as a VF-19F.)  Same basic deal as in Delta, when Makina and co. complain that Hayate's inexperience is putting unnecessary stress on the custom VF-31 "Siegfried'.

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

By the time of Macross Dynamite 7 the VF-171 should be starting to be distributed among fleets as a replacement for the VF-11. However we see Teal versions of the VF-17 flying by. Diamond Force has already switched to the VF-22S which is a special operations fighter. 

By the time of Macross Dynamite 7, the VF-171 was only just entering production for its earliest adopters (e.g. Earth).

Even there, the process of phasing in a new model of Valkyrie takes years to complete and would only have just been starting in 2047.  Once the aircraft are available the pilots and ground crews have to stand down from combat-ready status for months of retraining to familiarize themselves with the new model.  That's done in waves to prevent the number of groups in retraining at a time from significantly reducing the combat readiness of the force as a whole.  This has to be repeated, one or two squadrons at a time, across dozens and dozens of squadrons and the hundreds of mechanics and other support personnel.

Then, of course, it also takes a while for the designs to trickle out to the emigrant fleets where the local government and local New UN Forces evaluate them and potentially submit modifications to the design before local production begins and then years more for them to gradually phase those new fighters in.

Odds are the Macross 7 fleet hadn't even seen the specs for the VF-171 yet at the time of Macross Dynamite 7.  They were only just starting trial production of small numbers of the VF-19 and VF-22 in 2046-2047, ~5 years after those designs were adopted by the central New UN Forces and Earth.

Diamond Force is a special case in the most stringently literal sense.  They were THE elite special forces unit in the 37th large-scale long-distance emigrant fleet and probably would have been the first recipients of the VF-19 if they hadn't been seconded to the City 7 government as a defense unit under Milia's command and temporarily replaced by the newly-established Emerald Force.  Diamond Force and Emerald Force would have been first in line for any upgrade or new model because they were the fleet's Best of the Best.

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

I do wonder if one day we will see either the Zentradi Variable Glaug or Feios Valkyrie in a future anime series. The Zentradi has kinda been mooks  in Frontier and Delta. Having them will make Zenteadi more of threat. The Variable Glaug is a Battle Pod concept VF. While the Feios much like the VF-22 it's design was inspired by the Queadluun series Bartle Suit. However the Variable Glaug works better with Meltrandi piloting it. While the Feios is for Miclone sized Zentradi.

I suspect not.

Kawamori's said in the past that he wanted to avoid having Zentradi ships and mecha shown among the New UN Forces to avoid any confusion about who was on what side.

We're also kind of past them at this point, with the original Variable Glaug having been a 3rd Generation-equivalent Valkyrie and the manned Neo Glaug bis being a 4th Generation-equivalent.  The Queadluun-Alma was a 4.5th Generation-equivalent, but it was also one-of-a-kind thanks to the unique components of the Astral System and it was still beaten by a YF-25.

 

3 hours ago, Bolt said:

Considering M&M also had each their own, in customary colors. I can't help but wonder if they were a bit ahead of the curve, as far as accusations of new VF's. Considering their status and such. Granted, I'm sure Max was subject to nuns bureaucracy as any macross commander. Nevertheless, i wonder if they had "preferred " treatment in the slightest.

Well, maybe among the 37th fleet... with Max being the ranking officer of the fleet's New UN Forces and Milia being the fleet government's head of state.

They managed to secure for themselves a pair of VF-22s before they were even available for Diamond Force.  But then, who's going to argue?  It's MAX AND MILIA.  Two absolutely legendary Ace of Aces pilots who are the most respected pilots and flight instructors alive.  Just irritating them is probably a career-ending move even outside the fleet.  Would any career-minded officer want to have "reassigned after pissing off a living legend" on their resume?

 

3 hours ago, Bolt said:

This has been discussed before. But, those Queadluun Regults , ((ZBP-106 Rigādo) we saw in the first episode of Delta, I'm assuming were a General Galaxy creation. Piloted by Zentradi (as opposed to Meltran pilots) , designed to bring the Regult up to Queedluun capabilities. Is there technical data on those or the improved maneuvering 104 ?

We're not exactly sure when they were made... so they may or may not be connected to General Galaxy.  The New UN Forces were producing Zentradi hardware from their factory satellites from shortly after the First Space War.

As a New UN Forces issue, they're pretty much guaranteed to be upgraded versions intended for better overall survivability and reliability on the battlefield.  I doubt they're made that high-spec though.  The Queadluun series needed special, expensive, hardware to achieve the performance it did.  It's more likely that these are more subdued models which existed in the interim between the end of the First Space War and the introduction of the Queadluun-Rhea, with performance closer to their original models.

There is, unfortunately, no detail on them as of yet.

[pengbuzz]

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Naturally, though you'd expect the fleet arsenal to maintain a reasonable stock level of replacement parts for routine servicing of aircraft.

Exactly, and I don't think they would want to burn through those too quickly by using them more than necessary. Hence not tuning the craft and needing more parts and taxing the factory.

 

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Basara's VF-19 Custom "Fire Valkyrie" is an extreme case, as one of the few true "Ace Custom" units that has well and truly been modified to exceed the performance (and likely the design tolerances) of the aircraft it started life as.  (Macross Chronicle suggests Basara's VF-19 started as a VF-19F.)  Same basic deal as in Delta, when Makina and co. complain that Hayate's inexperience is putting unnecessary stress on the custom VF-31 "Siegfried'.

Yeah... Ol' Nekki there has a tendency to be rough with stuff/ people. I'm pretty sure Ray's gonna need some replacement parts at the rate that band tours!!! lol

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah... Ol' Nekki there has a tendency to be rough with stuff/ people. I'm pretty sure Ray's gonna need some replacement parts at the rate that band tours!!! lol

Probably not... Basara wasn't allowed to take the VF-19 with him when he left the fleet in 2047, so he's been bumming around the galaxy without it ever since.

That's why he had to "borrow" (without permission) the Zola Patrol's shiny new VF-19P in Macross Dynamite 7.

Fire Bomber itself also kinda broke up around that point, IIRC from the Re:Fire album where they did a reunion of sorts Mylene went off and had a solo career, Ray became a producer or a manager, and I completely forgot what happened to Veffidas.  I know Basara was still bumming around the galaxy at the time and sent his recorded tracks in via the galaxy network.

[Bolt]

11 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, maybe among the 37th fleet... with Max being the ranking officer of the fleet's New UN Forces an

That's pretty much where i was going with that..

 

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There is, unfortunately, no detail on them as of yet.

Oh well. Thanks for your input !

[RedWolf]

20 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Queadluun-Alma was a 4.5th Generation-equivalent, but it was also one-of-a-kind thanks to the unique components of the Astral System and it was still beaten by a YF-25

If I read it right the Queadluun Alma was built during the Protoculture's heyday.and the current one used by Angers is a customized version adding characteristics from the Feios. So the high speed mode.

 

20 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They managed to secure for themselves a pair of VF-22s before they were even available for Diamond Force.  But then, who's going to argue?  It's MAX AND MILIA. 

Just as Max or Milia is about to ask the answer is always:Yes! This is the same couple that got VF-25 from Frontier, which they later use to help rescue said fleet. Leaving Exsedol to mind the store on Battle 7.

 

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably not... Basara wasn't allowed to take the VF-19 with him when he left the fleet in 2047, so he's been bumming around the galaxy without it ever since.

That's why he had to "borrow" (without permission) the Zola Patrol's shiny new VF-19P in Macross Dynamite 7.

Meanwhile Elma Hoiley has the VF-19 Wind Valkyrie a reproduction of the Fire Valkyrie. Xaos just uses the power of money with their VF customs.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, RedWolf said:

Just as Max or Milia is about to ask the answer is always:Yes! This is the same couple that got VF-25 from Frontier, which they later use to help rescue said fleet. Leaving Exsedol to mind the store on Battle 7.

That probably wasn't a hugely difficult feat, all told... the Macross Frontier fleet government developed the VF-25 with an eye towards export sales to other emigrant governments like the Brisingr Alliance did with their VF-31.

 

1 minute ago, RedWolf said:

Meanwhile Elma Hoiley has the VF-19 Wind Valkyrie a reproduction of the Fire Valkyrie. Xaos just uses the power of money with their VF customs.

More than anything, that kind of depends on what the Wind Valkyrie started life as.

Basara's Fire Valkyrie was originally a military spec VF-19F.  Elma's Wind Valkyrie was probably something newer, but also likely a more restricted monkey model since Elma was just an employee of a civilian corporation.

Given her origin, I kind of suspect it was probably a VF-19P originally.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably not... Basara wasn't allowed to take the VF-19 with him when he left the fleet in 2047, so he's been bumming around the galaxy without it ever since.

That's why he had to "borrow" (without permission) the Zola Patrol's shiny new VF-19P in Macross Dynamite 7.

Fire Bomber itself also kinda broke up around that point, IIRC from the Re:Fire album where they did a reunion of sorts Mylene went off and had a solo career, Ray became a producer or a manager, and I completely forgot what happened to Veffidas.  I know Basara was still bumming around the galaxy at the time and sent his recorded tracks in via the galaxy network.

I thought his VF-19 was destroyed at the end of Macross 7, hence why he had to borrow one?

And I didn't mean replacement parts for the '19; I meant replacement parts for poor Ray after Basara gives him a nervous breakdown!

Edited January 13, 2022 by pengbuzz

[RedWolf]

Ray probably just paid for that space truck rental that Varauta wrecked too! And Basara tells the Zolan Galaxy Police to charge Ray over at Macross 7 for the rental.

Know what  totally see this how this could've snowballed to become Xaos. All that business from Fold Communication, to transportation, entertainment, PMC and food delivery just to support singers like Basara.

.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

And I didn't mean replacement parts for the '19; I meant replacement parts for poor Ray after Basara gives him a nervous breakdown!

Given how successful Fire Bomber was, he probably has Scrooge McDuck-esque amounts of money with which to console himself.

 

[Knight26]

Even with maintaining adequate spares for all ships and fighters you still wouldn't want to run your craft at max capacity while underway without a strong logistic train behind you.  The 3-Stars might be able to churn out dozens of fighters a day when fully stocked with adequate supplies coming in, but given the relatively slow speed and infrequent jumps the colony fleets seemed to make I would assume that means they are almost always running on a conservation/minimum consumption stance as much as possible.  Once they reach their selected colony world and establish trade with other colonies to get the logistics train back up and running the fighters would then be retuned back to full spec.

As for your special forces/custom jobs.  That goes beyond just tuning.  The SF craft are likely tuned to full spec, with the maintainers maybe pushing those bounds where they can.  The customs, well there almost anything could be going on, but it would take a seriously talented engineering team to make sure that the modifications didn't actually hurt the craft.  Basara's Fire Valkyrie likely had many of the military systems stripped (internal guns and associated hardware at a minimum) lowering its mass on top of having uprated/uptuned engines.

I've always contended that it would have been better/made more sense, that Basara should have started out in a lower spec custom valkyrie, (VF-4 up to a VF-11) and only once he demonstrated what he was capable of was granted the VF-19, in the same episode where it gets refitted.  After Zero, I thought it would have been cool if he turned out to be child of Sara and Shin and started out in a rebuilt and re-engined VF-0.  Given how the later Macross productions all seem to tie back to Zero, it would have made for an interesting connection.

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Even with maintaining adequate spares for all ships and fighters you still wouldn't want to run your craft at max capacity while underway without a strong logistic train behind you.  The 3-Stars might be able to churn out dozens of fighters a day when fully stocked with adequate supplies coming in, but given the relatively slow speed and infrequent jumps the colony fleets seemed to make I would assume that means they are almost always running on a conservation/minimum consumption stance as much as possible.

Given that it's noted that the Three Star-type factory ships were used to produce most things an emigrant fleet needs - from daily necessities and bulk goods for export all the way up to new fighters and warships for its local New UN Forces - I'm not sure it's necessarily an issue of available resources so much as it is allocating resources between the economy and the military.

It's been said that the Three Star-type acquires its raw materials from a variety of places including mining of asteroids and planetoids, cosmic dust collection, and so on.  There are some scenes in Frontier showing the titular emigrant fleet taking asteroids in tow to mine them for resources.

That said, one would imagine the military wields a fair amount of economic power on its own.  Macross Chronicle's comments on the matter suggest an emigrant fleet's local New UN Forces employ 10-15% of a fleet's total population on average.  (It certainly explains why Macross 29 is in such dire economic straits... they abolished one of an emigrant fleet's biggest job creators.)

 

 

26 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

As for your special forces/custom jobs.  That goes beyond just tuning.  The SF craft are likely tuned to full spec, with the maintainers maybe pushing those bounds where they can.  The customs, well there almost anything could be going on, but it would take a seriously talented engineering team to make sure that the modifications didn't actually hurt the craft.  Basara's Fire Valkyrie likely had many of the military systems stripped (internal guns and associated hardware at a minimum) lowering its mass on top of having uprated/uptuned engines.

Well, inasmuch as the New UN Government permits...

Arms export restrictions on the VF-19 and VF-22 in the 2040s and beyond likely mean that "full spec" to an emigrant fleet is VERY different to "full space" for the central New UN Forces.  Even the Frontier fleet had to resort to developing replacements for some performance-limited systems locally in order to achieve the desired level of performance from their locally-built derivative of the VF-19E.

 

26 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

I've always contended that it would have been better/made more sense, that Basara should have started out in a lower spec custom valkyrie, (VF-4 up to a VF-11) and only once he demonstrated what he was capable of was granted the VF-19, in the same episode where it gets refitted.  After Zero, I thought it would have been cool if he turned out to be child of Sara and Shin and started out in a rebuilt and re-engined VF-0.  Given how the later Macross productions all seem to tie back to Zero, it would have made for an interesting connection.

It would've made him a lot less conspicuous at least... remember Gamlin slowly losing his sh*t trying to figure out who the pilot of the red VF-19 was when the fleet's military didn't even have the VF-19 yet?

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Given how successful Fire Bomber was, he probably has Scrooge McDuck-esque amounts of money with which to console himself.

 

I should do that as a cartoon: Ray swimming around in a bank vault full of money, with Veffidas in a swimsuit sitting on a pile of it with a drink in her hand.

  

3 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Even with maintaining adequate spares for all ships and fighters you still wouldn't want to run your craft at max capacity while underway without a strong logistic train behind you.  The 3-Stars might be able to churn out dozens of fighters a day when fully stocked with adequate supplies coming in, but given the relatively slow speed and infrequent jumps the colony fleets seemed to make I would assume that means they are almost always running on a conservation/minimum consumption stance as much as possible.  Once they reach their selected colony world and establish trade with other colonies to get the logistics train back up and running the fighters would then be retuned back to full spec.

That plays into my point: why keep producing more replacement parts when not needed, than to run the specs closer to normal and use the production capacity for consumer goods?

 

3 hours ago, Knight26 said:

As for your special forces/custom jobs.  That goes beyond just tuning.  The SF craft are likely tuned to full spec, with the maintainers maybe pushing those bounds where they can.  The customs, well there almost anything could be going on, but it would take a seriously talented engineering team to make sure that the modifications didn't actually hurt the craft.  Basara's Fire Valkyrie likely had many of the military systems stripped (internal guns and associated hardware at a minimum) lowering its mass on top of having uprated/uptuned engines.

I would also venture that the parts would have to be reinforced somehow to withstand that kind of tuning, as well as losing weight wherever it wasn't necessary so added armor could be installed at critical points.

  

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, inasmuch as the New UN Government permits...

Arms export restrictions on the VF-19 and VF-22 in the 2040s and beyond likely mean that "full spec" to an emigrant fleet is VERY different to "full space" for the central New UN Forces.  Even the Frontier fleet had to resort to developing replacements for some performance-limited systems locally in order to achieve the desired level of performance from their locally-built derivative of the VF-19E.

This is why in our RPG, the fleet developed their own next-gen stealth valk.

Edited January 13, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Knight26]

The closest examples I can think of to "Custom Fighters" would be the time to altitude record holders:  F-4, F-15, and Su-27.  Those birds had specially tuned engines and were stripped of everything that wasn't needed to accomplish the time to altitude records (guns, radars, weapon systems, paint, etc...)  They then, in some cases, were further reinforced to handle the extra loads to be placed upon them.

@Seto Kaiba I agree, he would have been less conspicuous, but at the same time, even more infuriating to Gamlin.  "Why is a civilian here flying into battle?"  And  "How the heck is he keeping up with us in that antiquated hunk of junk?"  Do that would also have established him as an even more amazing pilot because he was making such an old craft perform so well, as opposed to be in the top of the line fighter.  Even SK's design works kind of backs that up with early Fire Valk concept being based more on the VF-11.

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

remember Gamlin slowly losing his sh*t trying to figure out who the pilot of the red VF-19 was when the fleet's military didn't even have the VF-19 yet?

It was more Gamlin asking why does Basara have a VF-19? What is his connection to the military that is so hush-hush that his computer terminal goes dead.

I'm guessing Gamlin is not a movie buff or at least a history one that it would be obvious. Except it is not an idol but a Rock Star. The original mission of Operation M was to pacify Zentradi. However at the time and still is conventional wisdom is that You Leave No Witnesses when it comes to Stray Zentradi. Pilots who are few compared to Zentradi are getting killed or suffer  PTSD . I can see why CnC Higgins was enthusiastic about the X-9 Ghost.

 

[Master Dex]

26 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

 I agree, he would have been less conspicuous, but at the same time, even more infuriating to Gamlin.  "Why is a civilian here flying into battle?"  And  "How the heck is he keeping up with us in that antiquated hunk of junk?"  Do that would also have established him as an even more amazing pilot because he was making such an old craft perform so well, as opposed to be in the top of the line fighter.  Even SK's design works kind of backs that up with early Fire Valk concept being based more on the VF-11.

I did get vibes of this in Dynamite 7 though when he flies a VT-1C into space to go sing to whales and manages to fly perfectly fine by nudging the throttle and control yoke with an acoustic guitar. He definitely has some skill.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I should do that as a cartoon: Ray swimming around in a bank vault full of money, with Veffidas in a swimsuit sitting on a pile of it with a drink in her hand.

It's kind of a scary thought.

Sheryl Nome debuted as an idol in 2057, and in less than two years had amassed a fortune vast enough to have an elite private military contractor mobilize a brand new, state of the art space warship and multiple squadrons of the latest Valkyrie with her personal credit card.

(Granted, there's official art of her jaw dropping when she sees the final invoice... but still...)

 

 

3 hours ago, Knight26 said:

The closest examples I can think of to "Custom Fighters" would be the time to altitude record holders:  F-4, F-15, and Su-27.  Those birds had specially tuned engines and were stripped of everything that wasn't needed to accomplish the time to altitude records (guns, radars, weapon systems, paint, etc...)  They then, in some cases, were further reinforced to handle the extra loads to be placed upon them.

Yeah, there are some fun accounts of stuff like that in Master File as well... the "Streak Valkyrie" and the Project Trapeze Valkyrie that was used for long duration space flight testing, for instance.

 

3 hours ago, Knight26 said:

@Seto Kaiba I agree, he would have been less conspicuous, but at the same time, even more infuriating to Gamlin.  "Why is a civilian here flying into battle?"  And  "How the heck is he keeping up with us in that antiquated hunk of junk?"  Do that would also have established him as an even more amazing pilot because he was making such an old craft perform so well, as opposed to be in the top of the line fighter.  Even SK's design works kind of backs that up with early Fire Valk concept being based more on the VF-11.

True, though there are limits.

Remember Gamlin's wonderful experience in Milia's old Super Valkyrie?  He was fumbling around and getting frustrated by how low the performance was compared to the VF-11C he'd trained on and the VF-17D that was his normal duty unit.

 

3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

It was more Gamlin asking why does Basara have a VF-19? What is his connection to the military that is so hush-hush that his computer terminal goes dead.

Then he spends a fair amount of time getting increasingly angry standing outside the hangar being repeatedly and politely told to go away by the security guards.

 

3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

I'm guessing Gamlin is not a movie buff or at least a history one that it would be obvious. Except it is not an idol but a Rock Star. The original mission of Operation M was to pacify Zentradi. However at the time and still is conventional wisdom is that You Leave No Witnesses when it comes to Stray Zentradi. Pilots who are few compared to Zentradi are getting killed or suffer  PTSD . I can see why CnC Higgins was enthusiastic about the X-9 Ghost.

He's definitely no music buff... remember his reaction to Dr. Chiba's office?

 

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I did get vibes of this in Dynamite 7 though when he flies a VT-1C into space to go sing to whales and manages to fly perfectly fine by nudging the throttle and control yoke with an acoustic guitar. He definitely has some skill.

If anything, that's a ringing endorsement of how intuitive the ANGIRAS integrated airframe control AI is... that it was able to turn having him bonk levers with his guitar into something other than a high velocity crash.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's kind of a scary thought.

Sheryl Nome debuted as an idol in 2057, and in less than two years had amassed a fortune vast enough to have an elite private military contractor mobilize a brand new, state of the art space warship and multiple squadrons of the latest Valkyrie with her personal credit card.

(Granted, there's official art of her jaw dropping when she sees the final invoice... but still...)

 

I'd buy that for a dollar!!

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I'd buy that for a dollar!!

Let's be honest, we'd probably ALL get sticker shock seeing what it costs to mobilize a private army for a high-risk rescue mission...

[Bolt]

Is there any doubt who Alto was going to choose...!? 😊

On another note, in comparison. Is there any info concerning the missile types used by the ZENTRADI ?

In particular , i'm curious how the heavy missiles used on their Regults compared to NUNS RMS-1 missiles , in universe.

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Is there any doubt who Alto was going to choose...!? 😊

Given the ferocity of the debate over the topic at the time...?

 

18 minutes ago, Bolt said:

On another note, in comparison. Is there any info concerning the missile types used by the ZENTRADI ?

In particular , i'm curious how the heavy missiles used on their Regults compared to NUNS RMS-1 missiles , in universe.

None of which I am aware.

That said, it's a very safe bet the heavy missiles on the Regult's heavy missile variant are nowhere near the firepower of the Spacy's RMS-1 thermonuclear reaction missiles.

To the Zentradi, thermonuclear reaction weaponry is a lost technology.  They lost access to it around 380,000 BCE when the Supervision Army destroyed the factory satellites that were producing thermonuclear reaction munitions for the Zentradi forces.

The Regult heavy missile variant's missile may have a blast yield equivalent to hundreds or maybe even thousands of kilograms of TNT... but even the lightest reaction warhead used by the UN Spacy had a yield of 500t.