Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[pengbuzz]

14 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Which reminds me Battle 5 was probably salvageable... If Gigille didn't blow up the planet.

He only disintegrated half of it...

[RedWolf]

It occurs to me Battle Astrea getting its number from a destroyed Battle class ship as a designation has precedent. In Macross VF-X2 Battle 13 was destroyed over Earth. Macross Fromtier novels had their own Battle 13. Presumably the Battle class built in Macross Dynamite 7 is also called Battle 7 as the original was destroyed on Varauta. 

On another note Macross 29 had it's 30th anniversary in 2062. That would mean the fleet has existed since 2032. Huh? That is like Macross Galaxy supposedly being launched in 2031, ten years before Macross Frontier.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

It occurs to me Battle Astrea getting its number from a destroyed Battle class ship as a designation has precedent. In Macross VF-X2 Battle 13 was destroyed over Earth. Macross Fromtier novels had their own Battle 13. Presumably the Battle class built in Macross Dynamite 7 is also called Battle 7 as the original was destroyed on Varauta. 

That's not how that works... both in terms of hull numbers in general, and how Battle-class ships are designated.

Ordinarily, if a ship is sunk you do not reuse its hull number for a new ship.  You might reuse the name later on, but the hull number is a serial identification number that, along with its hull classification symbol, forms a unique serial identification number for that specific ship and no other.

The Battle-class hull numbers are something of a special case because the number actually stenciled on the hull is only a part of it... the part that shows its fleet affiliation.  The full designation of a Battle-class goes BATTLE##/FLEET-HULL.  Battle Galaxy's full designation was BATTLE21/MG21-01 Battle Galaxy.  If a replacement were built, that replacement for the sunk Battle Galaxy would also be named Battle Galaxy to denote its affiliation with the Macross Galaxy fleet and its desigantion would be BATTLE21/MG21-02.  Theoretically, if a fleet had multiple Battle-class ships as Macross 5 appears to, they would all have the same name and hull number and only that last digit would change.

That the Battle Astraea has a hull number indicating its affiliation with the Macross Galaxy fleet but is not operated by the Macross Galaxy corporate army and is not named Battle Galaxy is a pretty strong indicator this ship is not a replacement... it's salvaged.  If Macross Galaxy built a replacement for the Battle Galaxy, it'd be named Battle Galaxy and operate with Corporate Army troops under the designation BATTLE21/MG21-02.  Apparently Heimdall's leadership are not sticklers for tradition, because naval tradition holds that it's very bad luck to rename a ship after it's been christened.

 

EDIT: Also, as a point of order, Macross Chronicle indicates that the Battle 7 was badly damaged but not destroyed... so we're not seeing them build a new one, they're repairing the existing one.  Macross 13 is another special case, because that is not an official designation... it's a codename for a ship that does not officially exist (i.e. its existence is classified).

Edited January 8, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

Now would be a good time for a Macross OVA featuring the VF-24. Bring it into the fold, (no pun intended 😜) . Considering it's the basis for so many VF's..

The technical info and variants would be awesome, ( you all know you want another Master File 😜) As it's still considered to have tech even the latest production VF's don't.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Bolt said:

Now would be a good time for a Macross OVA featuring the VF-24. Bring it into the fold, (no pun intended 😜) . Considering it's the basis for so many VF's..

The technical info and variants would be awesome, ( you all know you want another Master File 😜) As it's still considered to have tech even the latest production VF's don't.

Whether the VF-24 has technologies that other 5th Generation production or production-intent Valkyries don't have is unclear... due to nobody but the Earth/central NUNS having a complete picture of its specs.

It is, however, implied to have better versions of the key technologies used in the 5th Generation production and production-intent Valkyries we've seen so far.

If it is truly as OP as it's been implied to be - with the YF-29 supposedly being an attempt to exceed its specs - it'd be a bit of a gamebreaker for any conventional war.  Like the VF-25 and VF-27, it was developed around the idea of having to potentially go to war against the Vajra with their incredible abilities.  Now that that's not a concern anymore, no other threat we've seen quite measures up except something like a Zentradi main fleet.

(As for another Master File... maybe if it's a good one.  I'm still a little salty about the half-arsing of the VF-4, VF-22, and VF-31 books, even if the VF-31 book's copy-pasting from the VF-25 book was technically justified.  I'm still waiting for a VF-171 Master File.  That thing was the main fighter of the NUNS for at least two decades and counting.)

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm still waiting for a VF-171 Master File. 

Same .

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's not how that works... both in terms of hull numbers in general, and how Battle-class ships are designated.

Ordinarily, if a ship is sunk you do not reuse its hull number for a new ship.  You might reuse the name later on, but the hull number is a serial identification number that, along with its hull classification symbol, forms a unique serial identification number for that specific ship and no other.

The Battle-class hull numbers are something of a special case because the number actually stenciled on the hull is only a part of it... the part that shows its fleet affiliation.  The full designation of a Battle-class goes BATTLE##/FLEET-HULL.  Battle Galaxy's full designation was BATTLE21/MG21-01 Battle Galaxy.  If a replacement were built, that replacement for the sunk Battle Galaxy would also be named Battle Galaxy to denote its affiliation with the Macross Galaxy fleet and its desigantion would be BATTLE21/MG21-02.  Theoretically, if a fleet had multiple Battle-class ships as Macross 5 appears to, they would all have the same name and hull number and only that last digit would change.

That the Battle Astraea has a hull number indicating its affiliation with the Macross Galaxy fleet but is not operated by the Macross Galaxy corporate army and is not named Battle Galaxy is a pretty strong indicator this ship is not a replacement... it's salvaged.  If Macross Galaxy built a replacement for the Battle Galaxy, it'd be named Battle Galaxy and operate with Corporate Army troops under the designation BATTLE21/MG21-02.  Apparently Heimdall's leadership are not sticklers for tradition, because naval tradition holds that it's very bad luck to rename a ship after it's been christened.

 

EDIT: Also, as a point of order, Macross Chronicle indicates that the Battle 7 was badly damaged but not destroyed... so we're not seeing them build a new one, they're repairing the existing one.  Macross 13 is another special case, because that is not an official designation... it's a codename for a ship that does not officially exist (i.e. its existence is classified).

Well, that would explain the Enterprise  in Star Trek V! lol

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, that would explain the Enterprise  in Star Trek V! lol

... on a couple of levels.

Spoiler

The "mildly military" Federation Starfleet wasn't exactly using hull numbers consistently either... though that can be at least partly excused by the fact that they explicitly aren't a military.  Their ships are treated as part of a common registry, rather than being divided by type the way a military hull classification and number system would.  The original plan back in TOS was that the first two digits of a registry would denote the class, and the latter two the individual hull.  Enterprise was supposed to be Ship 01 of the Starfleet 17th starship class.  That got lost somewhere along the way, and it became an arbitrarily-assigned number.

Even then, reusing a number was a rare exception reserved for Starfleet's most celebrated starships and crews who had achieved a status best described as "living legend".  It wasn't until Discovery that we started seeing repeats with suffixes showing up commonly.  Prior to that, it was just the Enterprise and the 29th century Relativity.  Other cases of ships with the same name have different registries entirely.

(One could also semi-jokingly attribute the Enterprise's terrible luck to the fact that the Enterprise-A was originally named something else, and Starfleet changed the name... bad luck!)

 

[JB0]

59 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Other cases of ships with the same name have different registries entirely.

Except the DS9 Defiants.

[sketchley]

12 hours ago, Bolt said:

Now would be a good time for a Macross OVA featuring the VF-24. Bring it into the fold, (no pun intended 😜😜) . Considering it's the basis for so many VF's..

 

If he were interested in it, I think Kawamori-san would have done it by now.  However, just as we can see with the YF-30 and its spawn, he tends to go for the next thing, and the next derivative (with a tendency to add on more and more greebles each iteration).

I think some better questions to ask would be:

• Will the sponsors (*cough* Bandai *cough*) be willing to invest in a show that will essentially be perceived as 'milking the mold' and may not see as much merchandise sales as a completely new hero Valkyrie would?
• And will we be seeing more derivatives of the YF-30 in a new series, or has Kawamori-san already tired of it? (as the debut of the Sv-303 and the recycling of the VF-31A in the latest production seems to suggest)

That said, I'd be interested in a show where the VF-24 appears, too.

[Knight26]

THere is a long history of NAMING ships after older ships, but the registry always changes.  The US Navy for instance reuses quite a few ship names, but they hull numbers change. 

The best example being the Enterprise:
5x before we started to properly hull number them  (1775, 1776, 1799, 1831, 1874)
SP-790 (A motor patrol boat)
CV-6 (aircraft carrier WWII)
CVN-65 (First nuclear-powered Aircraft Carrier)
CVN-80 (New Ford class carrier, under construction)

But, as Seto stated, renaming a hull is considered bad luck, as is reusing a hull number on a new ship.

[RedWolf]

Watching Macross shows randomly I noticed certain vague concepts were elaborated upon in future productions. For example the Spiritia Gauge used by the Protodevlin could be seen as measuring Biological Fold Waves. Spiritial levels go higher when people are in danger. What else goes higher when singers are in danger? Their Fold Receptor Factor in Macross Delta.. The Hydra on  MF episode Legend of Zero going rabid could be a victim of Var syndrome as it is infected with Fold Bacteria. Song Energy is a form of Fold Wave. 

[aurance]

15 hours ago, JB0 said:

Except the DS9 Defiants.

Nope, the two have different registries.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

• Will the sponsors (*cough* Bandai *cough*) be willing to invest in a show that will essentially be perceived as 'milking the mold' and may not see as much merchandise sales as a completely new hero Valkyrie would?

The OVAs seem to get slightly different treatment on that front... it's less Bandai and more the secondary licensees that jump on that, like Arcadia, and they seem to be more willing to take risks on that kind of thing too.  

 

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

• And will we be seeing more derivatives of the YF-30 in a new series, or has Kawamori-san already tired of it? (as the debut of the Sv-303 and the recycling of the VF-31A in the latest production seems to suggest)

That's the million dollar question.

When we get a new Macross series, it's almost certainly going to go forward in time rather than backward, so what'll the Main Variable Fighter be?  From the 2060s on, the 5th Gen are the new emerging standard and they're gonna be around for a while.  So they either have to skip forward quite a ways (20 years or so) to a point where the 5th Gen are the grunt only mecha or consider something more like the original series or II where the main characters actually use the standard mecha just with different paintjobs.

Absolute Live!!!!!! kind of gives the vibe that Bandai was a bit surprised that the VF-31A proved to be more appealing as a toy than any of the Delta Flight versions, and may have put in a word about wanting stuff for the movie to use THAT mold as a starting point instead of the Siegfried type.

I'd like to see the franchise get away from Hero Mecha Syndrome a bit.  Especially since the novelty of the super-elite PMC has worn off quite a bit since Frontier thanks in part to the real world war crimes charges against PMCs.

 

 

3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Watching Macross shows randomly I noticed certain vague concepts were elaborated upon in future productions. For example the Spiritia Gauge used by the Protodevlin could be seen as measuring Biological Fold Waves.

Not "could be" so much as "is"... Macross Chronicle, and really the Macross 7 series itself, is pretty clear on the subject.

The amplification system used in the Sound Boosters is explicitly noted to be a modified fold system.

 

3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

The Hydra on  MF episode Legend of Zero going rabid could be a victim of Var syndrome as it is infected with Fold Bacteria. Song Energy is a form of Fold Wave. 

Unfortunately, Macross Delta's attempt to draw a connection between the V-type bacterium and Var syndrome is really poorly done and not thought out at all.

It asserts (as a theory) that humanity acquired fold receptors and biological fold wave abilities when the Vajra left the galaxy in 2059.  This ignores the fact that biological fold waves were first documented decades earlier, with the first demonstrated instance being half a century earlier.  It's one of a number of things that Delta appropriated from previous titles but tries to pretend it invented... like the holographic costumes, the gas jet rockets, etc.

It also kind of ignores that, in Macross Frontier, being infected with the V-type bacterium was only survivable if it set up shop in your entric nervous system like it does on the Vajra.  If the bacteria infect your brain instead, you get an incurable cough of death(TM) and other unfortunate consequences.

[Bolt]

10 hours ago, sketchley said:

If he were interested in it, I think Kawamori-san would have done it by now. 

Perhaps so. I don't know how it all works. But I suspect, even if he did want to move on, the "powers that be " would've said "hold on son, we're not done milking walkure.."

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

When we get a new Macross series, it's almost certainly going to go forward in time rather than backward, so what'll the Main Variable Fighter be?

Yes, this does seem predictable, hence my original statement about the VF-24. That could be a current story or as far back as 10 years. Perhaps with all this Delta success, slipping in something along the lines of a Macross Zero style OVA would be a great opportunity to expand and offer more diversity. Crazy talk, i know. Just to be clear , I'm NOT talking about the same as M.0  ,at all . Just taking us back to a previous point and telling another story. 
maybe they could take a point or two from S(tar) W(ars)..

 

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'd like to see the franchise get away from Hero Mecha Syndrome a bit.  Especially since the novelty of the super-elite PMC has worn off quite a bit since Frontier thanks in part to the real world war crimes charges against PMCs.

Same here. VF-171 Story please ..

Edited January 9, 2022 by Bolt

[Bolt]

On another note.. is there any technical data or performance  info on the VF-1SR Attack Valkyrie???

[deathzealot]

Just now, Bolt said:

On another note.. is there any technical data or performance  info on the VF-1SR Attack Valkyrie???

What is that??

[Bolt]

1 minute ago, deathzealot said:

What is that??

I have several images of it. Been around for a while. Another awesome custom !

 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, Bolt said:

On another note.. is there any technical data or performance  info on the VF-1SR Attack Valkyrie???

Nope.

All we know is that it was an evolutionary upgrade to the VF-1 Valkyrie introduced c.2018 to improve its capabilities and that it was in widespread use c.2036 for the events of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross 2036 game where they were used by the game's main characters: Komilia Maria Jenius and her wingman Lott Sheen.  It's equipped with the Super Pack II, a semi-fixed augment pack more along the lines of the VF-2SS's Super Armed Pack that has boosters, missiles, and beam guns like the VF-1's Strike Pack.

There are three flavors like the standard VF-1... the VF-1AR, JR, and SR:

The exemplar in the pic @Bolt posted is Komilia's VF-1SR.  The one on the left here is Lott Sheen's VF-1JR, which he has in Roy Focker colors.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

Hey @Seto Kaiba Your VF list , you posted here in December, doesn't list this or any M2 , does it ?

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Hey @Seto Kaiba Your VF list , you posted here in December, doesn't list this or any M2 , does it ?

No, it does not... and for good reason.

Macross II's technical setting is more influenced by Gundam than by real world technological progression in fighter aircraft.  As such, there's not really a good, clear, and explicit generational progression one can point to as we can with Kawamori's main timeline.  Like the generations of Mobile Suit in Gundam's Universal Century, you've got a reasonably clear 1st Gen and 2nd Gen and past that point you're counting to potato because incremental upgrades and radical leaps in technology come in at the same time and the sharp distinctions disappear.

You've got the VF-1 and VF-4 more or less the same as the main timeline's family tree... but then there's the VF-1 Kai "Refined Valkyrie"/"Attack Valkyrie" from the late 2010s and VF-4S Siren from the 2030s that don't quite fit being enhanced versions of their originals with significant new capabilities and technologies.  Then you've got the events of 2054 which led to a second Overtechnology renaissance and Valkyries in Macross II that are either a single generation or potentially three generations depending on how you want to look at them.  It starts with the VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie in the 2060s, then the original VF-2 series in the 2070s, the regime-optimized versions in 2081 and 2086 (VF-2SS and VF-2JA respectively), then the VA-1 Metal Siren.

Basically, it's hard to list them in any terms other than chronological order because it's not super clear whether there are generational divides or simple incremental enhancement and it's not really clear what the defining traits of a given generation ARE.  The only really explicit point there is the pre-2054 Valkyries vs. the post-2054 Valkyries, the former being based on human reverse-engineered Overtechnology and the latter being based on a combination of human, Zentradi, and Meltrandi overtechnology with particular design emphasis explicitly drawn from powered battle suits.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, it does not... and for good reason.

Macross II's technical setting is more influenced by Gundam than by real world technological progression in fighter aircraft.  As such, there's not really a good, clear, and explicit generational progression one can point to as we can with Kawamori's main timeline.  Like the generations of Mobile Suit in Gundam's Universal Century, you've got a reasonably clear 1st Gen and 2nd Gen and past that point you're counting to potato because incremental upgrades and radical leaps in technology come in at the same time and the sharp distinctions disappear.

Sounds like they might have been trying to compete with MSG on some level.

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You've got the VF-1 and VF-4 more or less the same as the main timeline's family tree... but then there's the VF-1 Kai "Refined Valkyrie"/"Attack Valkyrie" from the late 2010s and VF-4S Siren from the 2030s that don't quite fit being enhanced versions of their originals with significant new capabilities and technologies.  Then you've got the events of 2054 which led to a second Overtechnology renaissance and Valkyries in Macross II that are either a single generation or potentially three generations depending on how you want to look at them.  It starts with the VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie in the 2060s, then the original VF-2 series in the 2070s, the regime-optimized versions in 2081 and 2086 (VF-2SS and VF-2JA respectively), then the VA-1 Metal Siren.

Basically, it's hard to list them in any terms other than chronological order because it's not super clear whether there are generational divides or simple incremental enhancement and it's not really clear what the defining traits of a given generation ARE.  The only really explicit point there is the pre-2054 Valkyries vs. the post-2054 Valkyries, the former being based on human reverse-engineered Overtechnology and the latter being based on a combination of human, Zentradi, and Meltrandi overtechnology with particular design emphasis explicitly drawn from powered battle suits.

Yeah, it would be very hard to reconcile MII's tech to the main timeline as it stands, without either doing a retcon that it didn't happen on Earth per se or  some serious hand-waving. So it's going to need listing as a separate list unto itself (I can definitely see the Gundam influences in it).

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Sounds like they might have been trying to compete with MSG on some level.

More a question of Macross II: Lovers Again and its tie-ins being developed by a creative team with more than a few Gundam franchise veterans and no Kawamori around to inject his passion for realistic aerospace engineering.

 

5 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah, it would be very hard to reconcile MII's tech to the main timeline as it stands, without either doing a retcon that it didn't happen on Earth per se or  some serious hand-waving. So it's going to need listing as a separate list unto itself (I can definitely see the Gundam influences in it).

Very much so, yes... especially since Macross II's timeline has the introduction of things like beam gunpods decades before Valkyries in the main timeline got them, as well as Gundam-inspired additions like funnels (on the VF-4) and bits (on the VF-2).

There are some points in common, like the adoption of increasing amounts of Zentradi overtechnology or the inclusion of a support armature in the cockpit to enable the pilot to hold up better under high g-force loads.  Generator output seems to have been considered more important than thrust, so the Macross II Valkyries are generating three times as much from their engines as a VF-1 and using it to power things like railguns and particle weapons.

[sketchley]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The OVAs seem to get slightly different treatment on that front... it's less Bandai and more the secondary licensees that jump on that, like Arcadia, and they seem to be more willing to take risks on that kind of thing too.  

Well, that may have been true a decade or two ago.  However, when was the last Macross OVA released?

Speaking of the market in general (not only Macross), I sense that in the past few years there has been a tangible shift away from rental shops offering physical media to streaming, etc. (it might seem quaint to people overseas, but that's Japan for you).  So, the traditional primary sponsors of OVAs may be correspondingly shifting away to streaming entities (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, etc.)  So, I guess the question changes to: are they willing to sponsor a Macross series?

 

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'd like to see the franchise get away from Hero Mecha Syndrome a bit.  Especially since the novelty of the super-elite PMC has worn off quite a bit since Frontier thanks in part to the real world war crimes charges against PMCs.

Well, two things to keep in mind:

• hero mecha is what sells (in Japan)
• people in Japan (the primary market) generally don't pay attention to that kind of news, so PMCs are still gimmicky here

The second point loops back to my earlier question: has Kawamori-san bored with PMCs?  So far he's giving us the cream of the crop (SMS) and their antithesis (Chaos).  Where could he go with them next?

Personally, I think he likes to use PMCs as they're a convenient story-writing way to get around government bureaucracy (par for the course in Japan... :roll: ) and turn it into something he's more familiar with (corporate bureaucracy)*, as well as an excuse to give the protagonists unique hero mecha that's visually distinct from what the regular soldiers use.

* as Steven King says: write what you know about

 

8 hours ago, Bolt said:

Perhaps so. I don't know how it all works. But I suspect, even if he did want to move on, the "powers that be " would've said "hold on son, we're not done milking walkure.."

Very true.  I suspect that's one of the main reasons why the protagonists switched to the VF-31AX Kairos Plus in the 2nd Delta movie.

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are three flavors like the standard VF-1... the VF-1AR, JR, and SR:@Bolt posted is Komilia's VF-1SR.  The one on the left here is Lott Sheen's VF-1JR, which he has in Roy Focker colors.

Oh, I've never seen closeups of their heads before.  They're neat.

Edited January 10, 2022 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

20 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Well, that may have been true a decade or two ago.  However, when was the last Macross OVA released?

A bit over 9 years ago... (Macross FB7).

We're about due for one.

 

20 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Speaking of the market in general (not only Macross), I sense that in the past few years there has been a tangible shift away from rental shops offering physical media to streaming, etc. (it might seem quaint to people overseas, but that's Japan for you).  So, the traditional primary sponsors of OVAs may be correspondingly shifting away to streaming entities (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, etc.)  So, I guess the question changes to: are they willing to sponsor a Macross series?

... Netflix'll sponsor anything, then cancel it right away if it doesn't perform up to their expectations.  

 

20 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Well, two things to keep in mind:

• hero mecha is what sells (in Japan)
• people in Japan (the primary market) generally don't pay attention to that kind of news, so PMCs are still gimmicky here

Eh... there's hero mecha and then there's hero mecha.

You can make a protagonist's mecha distinctive without having to make it a separate model of mecha entirely.  Gundam has certainly proven you don't need to have ace customs all over hell's half acre in order to sell toys and kits, you just need a distinctive paintjob for a main character.

The YF-29's already basically become Macross's Gundam and you can tell they're wearing that idea out pretty badly.

 

20 minutes ago, sketchley said:

The second point loops back to my earlier question: has Kawamori-san bored with PMCs?  So far he's giving us the cream of the crop (SMS) and their antithesis (Chaos).  Where could he go with them next?

Kawamori-san still has to answer to the production committee, though... and it's pretty clear from Macross Delta that the writers were struggling pretty hard to make the PMC idea work in the story this time around.  There's a moment near the end of the Macross Delta TV anime that borders on an ignored epiphany on the writers part where it gets brought up that PMCs can't actually fight in wars the way Xaos was doing even in Macross's fictional universe.  Kawamori's been putting a rather blunt anti-corporate theme into Macross stuff since Frontier, focusing on the abuses of unchecked capitalism and amoral war profiteering.  The writers also started trending towards Xaos being morally rather in the grey too.  I don't think he's so lacking in self-awareness that those two lines of thought won't meet in the middle sooner or later.

 

20 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Personally, I think he likes to use PMCs as they're a convenient story-writing way to get around government bureaucracy (par for the course in Japan... :roll: ) and turn it into something he's more familiar with (corporate bureaucracy)*, as well as an excuse to give the protagonists unique hero mecha that's visually distinct from what the regular soldiers use.

You could do the same thing with Special Forces units easily enough... he's already done that one twice before with the VF-X Special Forces.

PMCs seem to be a thing just because they can write the characters edgy and rebellious.

 

20 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Very true.  I suspect that's one of the main reasons why the protagonists switched to the VF-31AX Kairos Plus in the 2nd Delta movie.

Personally, my suspicion remains that Bandai saw the VF-31A was an unexpectedly popular option and appealed for opportunity to milk that mold more.

Ordinarily, you'd expect the Next Movie to offer a new and improved mecha rather than a hastily improvised one that looks far more like the grunt mecha than the previous batch of ace customs and even shares their name.

[pengbuzz]

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... there's hero mecha and then there's hero mecha.

You can make a protagonist's mecha distinctive without having to make it a separate model of mecha entirely.  Gundam has certainly proven you don't need to have ace customs all over hell's half acre in order to sell toys and kits, you just need a distinctive paintjob for a main character.

The YF-29's already basically become Macross's Gundam and you can tell they're wearing that idea out pretty badly.

 

As opposed to Hikaru's VF-1J in SFDM: distinctive (red and white, group leader model but not ace model) but still a VF-1.

And for that point: a hero should be a hero because they had the inner strength, courage and fortitude to stand up and do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. If they need a special mech/ dohickey/ whatever... then whoever has it can be the "hero" and not just that person.

Audie Murphy didn't have an uber-gun to take on the Nazis...just determination and a desire to do his duty for God and country.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A bit over 9 years ago... (Macross FB7).

Wasn't that a movie?  (it was theatrically released first, no?)

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't think he's so lacking in self-awareness that those two lines of thought won't meet in the middle sooner or later.

Well, there's him, and everyone else.  That everyone else not only includes the production staff, but also the viewers.  We've seen on more than one occasion* Kawamori-san changing his vision to make it easier for the (casual) viewer to easily differentiate between not only protagonists and antagonists, but also the main and sub protagonists.  And not everyone on the production staff will have his experiences and interests.**

In short, his creative decisions all boil down to what he can do (within sponsors' limits) and what he perceives he can do (the viewers' limits).  The perception one is a doozy, as he may be self-editing too harshly.

Kawamori-san may already know the limits of PMCs, but his self-editing may have resulted in "It's Macross, PMCs exist, and they can do those things."  Perhaps that 'ignored epiphany' was also a wink at (or a kind of lampshading for) the viewers who are more aware of the real world realities of PMCs?

 

* E.g.: the VF-19 being replaced by the VF-171 as the main VF in MF.

** there have been times when Kawamori-san has almost appeared obsessive in providing a logical reason for transforming fighter jets to exist in a Macross show.  Yet I'm sure the majority of staff members just shrug there shoulders and say "It's Macross, OF COURSE there are Valkyries."  (E.g.: the dancing Valkyries at the start of Delta to justify their in-universe existence).

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You could do the same thing with Special Forces units easily enough... he's already done that one twice before with the VF-X Special Forces.

PMCs seem to be a thing just because they can write the characters edgy and rebellious.

Arguably he's done that since M7.  However, I think your spot-on with the freedom it gives them to write the characters.

 

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The YF-29's already basically become Macross's Gundam and you can tell they're wearing that idea out pretty badly.

Any idea if Max's YF has any armament or performance differences from previous iterations? I get the idea each is unique, but..

 

2 hours ago, sketchley said:

hero mecha is what sells (in Japan)

I understand. It also sells over seas. 
I just think a new story with an older VF would also sell. New livery, some custom variant. Bandai and co. Could just as easily milk those molds as well. My example of the VF-24 would at least be "new" in many regards, IMO.

 

43 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

As opposed to Hikaru's VF-1J in SFDM: distinctive (red and white, group leader model but not ace model) but still a VF-1.

Exactly.

[Seto Kaiba]

40 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

As opposed to Hikaru's VF-1J in SFDM: distinctive (red and white, group leader model but not ace model) but still a VF-1.

Exactly... hell, Roy's VF-1S is probably the single most distinctive design in the franchise and it's only real difference from any other unit is its paintjob.

 

40 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

And for that point: a hero should be a hero because they had the inner strength, courage and fortitude to stand up and do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. If they need a special mech/ dohickey/ whatever... then whoever has it can be the "hero" and not just that person.

There are settings where it's justified - like Gundam's Universal Century - but it doesn't really fit in a series like Macross where there are no superhumans, nobody's got hyper-evolved super-reflexes or precognition, nobody's legally recognized as a one-man army, etc.  These are regular joes working with regular military procurement.  Even Gundam can't hide how stupid and impractical its obsession with ace custom mecha is, and has to lampshade it every now and again to stop the writers from going completely mad.

It can be compelling when it's done well (e.g. Macross 7), but if the people in the ace customs don't really live up to it then you just wonder what the point of the ace custom even was... 

 

 

2 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Wasn't that a movie?  (it was theatrically released first, no?)

Was it?

 

2 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Well, there's him, and everyone else.  That everyone else not only includes the production staff, but also the viewers.  We've seen on more than one occasion* Kawamori-san changing his vision to make it easier for the (casual) viewer to easily differentiate between not only protagonists and antagonists, but also the main and sub protagonists.  And not everyone on the production staff will have his experiences and interests.**

In short, his creative decisions all boil down to what he can do (within sponsors' limits) and what he perceives he can do (the viewers' limits).  The perception one is a doozy, as he may be self-editing too harshly.

Kawamori-san may already know the limits of PMCs, but his self-editing may have resulted in "It's Macross, PMCs exist, and they can do those things."  Perhaps that 'ignored epiphany' was also a wink at (or a kind of lampshading for) the viewers who are more aware of the real world realities of PMCs?

Yeah, he does have to boil it down and he does have the writers there to turn his ideas into something more palatable to general audiences... but even then, you could tell Delta was struggling to make the PMC idea work.  Especially since the story basically had a PMC with maybe twenty planes to its name going up against an entire national military all on their own and somehow at least coming to a draw despite hilarious incompetence on all sides.

 

2 minutes ago, sketchley said:

** there have been times when Kawamori-san has almost appeared obsessive in providing a logical reason for transforming fighter jets to exist in a Macross show.  Yet I'm sure the majority of staff members just shrug there shoulders and say "It's Macross, OF COURSE there are Valkyries."  (E.g.: the dancing Valkyries at the start of Delta to justify their in-universe existence).

Y'sure that's all Kawamori and not Masahiro Chiba chipping in?

 

2 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Arguably he's done that since M7.  However, I think your spot-on with the freedom it gives them to write the characters.

Like I said WRT ace customs, it can work if it's well thought-out... and Sound Force was well thought-out, though it was technically a unit of Irregulars inside the NUNS rather than a private orgnaization.  SMS worked pretty plausibly too because it was working in concert with the NUNS rather than trying to do things solo, and even when they went rogue it was for narratively sound reasons and it was shown that even their hypercompetent forces can't really fight something like a government.  Xaos was just poorly thought out, and seems like it was mainly just there so the characters could talk sh*t about the NUNS even though the writers seem to have been a bit wishy-washy on that point and show the NUNS doing way more actual work than them.

 

12 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Any idea if Max's YF has any armament or performance differences from previous iterations? I get the idea each is unique, but.

Can I get back to you on that one?

Still waiting for actual specs... and starting to suspect we won't get any until the Blu-rays drop.

[sketchley]

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Was it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross_FB_7:_Ore_no_Uta_o_Kike!

(the link at the bottom to the WayBackMachine is especially nostalgic! )

 

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

'sure that's all Kawamori and not Masahiro Chiba chipping in?

That particular line was from an interview with Kawamori-san in Great Mechanics.

I don't think Chiba-san has been involved with Delta (or Frontier, for that matter).

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Any idea if Max's YF has any armament or performance differences from previous iterations? I get the idea each is unique, but..

There's nothing in the most recent publications with it (Great Mechanics, etc.)

GM says it's exactly the same as the one used by SMS (equipped with a Fold Wave System, painted blue.)  The only 'difference' (if we can call it that), is that it also indicates that Max's piloting skill can fully pull out, or utilize the YF-29's capabilities.

The Macross Large Analysis (マクロス大解剖) mook states that it's equipped with EX-Gear and a Fold Wave System, and that Max is able to pull out it's capabilities to the maximum limit.

In other words, aside from being painted blue and Max using it to it's full potential (a subtle dig on Aruto???), it's unchanged from the prototype seen in the 2nd Frontier movie.

 

... it's maddening how little detail is published on Valkyries recently.  Remember when we complained how the stuff on the Frontier Valkyries was 'spartan'? (^_^;)

Edited January 10, 2022 by sketchley

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Exactly... hell, Roy's VF-1S is probably the single most distinctive design in the franchise and it's only real difference from any other unit is its paintjob.

That and the performance may have been slightly tweaked (but not ridiculous levels obviously).

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are settings where it's justified - like Gundam's Universal Century - but it doesn't really fit in a series like Macross where there are no superhumans, nobody's got hyper-evolved super-reflexes or precognition, nobody's legally recognized as a one-man army, etc.  These are regular joes working with regular military procurement.  Even Gundam can't hide how stupid and impractical its obsession with ace custom mecha is, and has to lampshade it every now and again to stop the writers from going completely mad.

It can be compelling when it's done well (e.g. Macross 7), but if the people in the ace customs don't really live up to it then you just wonder what the point of the ace custom even was... 

I'll give you that; some situations call for a special-modded mech. And M7 had a legit reason for it: a situation that normal combat mecha simply were not suited for (Spiritua doesn't respond really to bullets and missiles).

I also agree that in Macross, there are no "new-types" like with Gundam or other stuff like that. I ran into issues similar when I designed the Wraithverge for our campaign, and had to strongly resist the temptation to make it an uber-fighter. After designing it and going over it to remove anything that would make it too powerful or "ace custom", my GM set it up in-game that it was UN Spacy's newest stealth fighter to date: if your character's abilities and stats could handle it and you passed the training, they could fly it as well.

To date: 3 pilots (as of last game session) were trained to fly it, with more in training who would then train others from varying fleets and those would return and do likewise.

[RedWolf]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I also agree that in Macross, there are no "new-types" like with Gundam or other stuff

Umm... Kinda but more in line with Zeon Zum Deikun's belief Newtypes will allow humanity to communicate with a esper ability. Here in Macross it is known as Space-Time Resonance Ability or Fold Receptor Factor. It was vague in Macross 7 with Basara. He was more of a transmitter. Giving people life with his singing, literally. Come Macross Zero we see this also with Sara Nome but she and Mao can actually see Fold Waves visually referring It to as Wind and Waves. Then in comes the introduction of the Fold Wave System in Macross Frontier  Wings of Goodbye where it on the YF-29 enhances Alto's senses as the system is powered up by singers. Come Macross Delta we are introduced to Windermereans who do not only transmit  and receive their thoughts through their Rune hair organs but the ability to read Fold Waves which they refer to as Wind having excellent spatial awareness.

Yes Exsedol wasn't wrong Humans have super powers... 

Considering both the Evil Series and the Bird Human Terrans act functionally like batteries for Protoculture WMDs. With Windermereans not only their lives short but the harder they sing they actually lose their lifespan faster.

Edited January 10, 2022 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, sketchley said:

That particular line was from an interview with Kawamori-san in Great Mechanics.

I don't think Chiba-san has been involved with Delta (or Frontier, for that matter).

Didn't Chiba do most of the Frontier-era Great Mechanics interviews?

 

13 hours ago, sketchley said:

The Macross Large Analysis (マクロス大解剖) mook states that it's equipped with EX-Gear and a Fold Wave System, and that Max is able to pull out it's capabilities to the maximum limit.

In other words, aside from being painted blue and Max using it to it's full potential (a subtle dig on Aruto???), it's unchanged from the prototype seen in the 2nd Frontier movie.

I took it more as another way of endorsing the YF-29 as The Strongest Valkyrie... 

Its specs are so far beyond what any other contemporary Valkyrie can offer that only a SSR Ultra Rare Legendary Ace of Aces can draw out its full potential.  

If they'd said Hayate I'd have taken it as a dig at the pilot because Hayate is criticized in-universe as an unpolished raw talent who is unnecessarily rough on his plane and has yet to come into his own.  Alto, on the other hand, was skilled and experienced enough to explicitly draw out the full potential of the VF-25 and be frustrated by the lower specs of the VF-171EX.

 

13 hours ago, sketchley said:

... it's maddening how little detail is published on Valkyries recently.  Remember when we complained how the stuff on the Frontier Valkyries was 'spartan'? (^_^;)

It's become more of a slow drip of information, which is fine as long as it gets to a reasonable level.  The problem is that slow drip is distributed across so many fronts that getting all the info together becomes a huge pain in the arse.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

That and the performance may have been slightly tweaked (but not ridiculous levels obviously).

It's tuned differently, but it's still running all-stock parts.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I also agree that in Macross, there are no "new-types" like with Gundam or other stuff like that. I ran into issues similar when I designed the Wraithverge for our campaign, and had to strongly resist the temptation to make it an uber-fighter. After designing it and going over it to remove anything that would make it too powerful or "ace custom", my GM set it up in-game that it was UN Spacy's newest stealth fighter to date: if your character's abilities and stats could handle it and you passed the training, they could fly it as well.

To date: 3 pilots (as of last game session) were trained to fly it, with more in training who would then train others from varying fleets and those would return and do likewise.

I've always tried to avoid that kind of thing.  When you give players access to an uber-mecha it sucks all the tension and challenge out of combat.

Gundam or Macross, I prefer to stick 'em in mass production mecha because being the Unchosen One instead of the ultimate plot armored hero of ultimate destiny makes for more engaging storytelling.

 

9 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Umm... Kinda but more in line with Zeon Zum Deikun's belief Newtypes will allow humanity to communicate with a esper ability. Here in Macross it is known as Space-Time Resonance Ability or Fold Receptor Factor.

It's not at all similar.

In Gundam, having Newtype abilities means you've got a slightly more durable body, faster reflexes, telepathy with other Newtypes, and even a limited form of precognition.

In Macross, having a fold receptor factor means you're... slightly less susceptible to falling into an uncontrollable roid rage when exposed to certain kinds of biological fold waves?

[pengbuzz]

20 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's tuned differently, but it's still running all-stock parts.

That's what I thought:  on that note, I consider tweaked to be enhancing what's already there with adjustments, as opposed to modded.

(I could totally see Roy as being a tuner type of guy with a sweet ride! lol Anyone for "the Fast and the Furious" with the cast of Macross? )

20 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I've always tried to avoid that kind of thing.  When you give players access to an uber-mecha it sucks all the tension and challenge out of combat.

Gundam or Macross, I prefer to stick 'em in mass production mecha because being the Unchosen One instead of the ultimate plot armored hero of ultimate destiny makes for more engaging storytelling.

Agreed; that's why we began working it in as a baseline stealth fighter for the units. Adam (our GM) didn't want only a few characters having it. Not to mention we were going up against the Mardook from M2 as the main baddies in our campaign (GIlgamesh armor= shredded space alloy).

[Bolt]

14 hours ago, sketchley said:

In other words, aside from being painted blue and Max using it to it's full potential (a subtle dig on Aruto???), it's unchanged from the prototype seen in the 2nd Frontier movie.

Do you mean Alto , sir ?