Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[aurance]

17 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

You ask me the writers are intending this on some level because Frontier proves they can do this without these implications.

I don’t agree with this, because: 1) they are not the same writers, and 2) even still, writing quality and attention to detail can depend largely depend on pressure, motivation, and payment. It’s fun to extrapolate “facts” based on sloppy writing but at some level of that the answers become arbitrary and make less and less sense.

Edited December 27, 2021 by aurance

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's anime... even the chillest of health nuts has eighty gallons of blood at 500psi.

 

Eh... a comparison between the two is so hopelessly one-sided that it reads like a "Virgin and Chad" meme.

Xaos PMC Division

• Founded by Space Comcast.  Works mainly in the space boonies.  (Or maybe Space Doordash, given how many jokes they make about delivering pizza.)
• Main duty is protecting an idol group.  Constantly puts them in danger.
• Parent company is a source of so much corruption that a paramilitary force is formed to hunt them down.
• War criminals on the payroll.  Multiple arrests and convictions for being unlawful combatants in a declared war.
• Recruits are local New UN Forces washouts, and a forklift driver.
• Massive core competency issues.  One "elite" pilot narrowly avoids causing a major accident and failing training.  "Super hacker" and alleged top-tier mechanic can't manage a single electronic door lock in an undercover operation.
• Labor law nightmare scenario... one employee is kept as a literal slave (illegal clone soldier) and another was coerced into accepting employment there to avoid prosecution for criminal activity.
• Can't perform without an ultra ace custom version of the latest next-generation Variable Fighter.
• Scornful of the NUNS and doesn't cooperate with the local New UN Forces until it's absolutely necessary and way too goddamn late.
• Constantly playing into the enemy's hands.
• Repeatedly gets rolled by the Aerial Knights, who have never taken part in actual combat before... losing the entire war and causing the collapse of the Brisingr Alliance.  Gets rolled again by Heimdall thereafter after Windermere takes its ball and goes home.
• Regional commander is notorious for his ineptitude.
• Organizationally broke and almost literally begging for money after being defeated.
• Joke-tier security, their entire system is compromised top-to-bottom by Epsilon Foundation hardware and backdoors despite a "super hacker" on payroll. 
• Totally upstaged in their own movie by an ace pilot guest character.
• Top ace is a simp for, and creepy stalker of, Walkure's least useful member and an incredibly toxic coworker to boot.
• Dead team member is mercy-killed by the enemy (or dies needlessly) after violating orders while hardcore simping for the least useful Walkure member... gets her and the rest of the group captured anyway.

 

Strategic Military Services

• Founded by one of the biggest interstellar shipping concerns to guard their cargo.  Hired by the wealthiest emigrant governments to supplement their local New UN Forces.
• Main duty is evaluating the NUNS's next-gen main fighter in live combat.
• Parent company is a major intestellar shipping firm whose sinister ulterior motive is... finding Minmay and the Megaroad-01?
• Highly principled staff rejects unethical orders an investigates a suspicious transfer of power in their client government, uncovering and foiling a coup d'etat.
• Recruits are elite troops poached from the NUNS, top students from an elite vocational school that normally trains pilots for the NUNS and commercial service.
• New inductees so good they have to set the simulator difficulty up way above normal to prevent them from clearing it too easily and getting arrogant.
• No known labor issues.
• Uses totally unmodified production-intent versions of the next-generation Variable Fighter they were hired to test.
• Operates well in support of the local New UN Forces, despite being critical of them.
• Realizes they're being played when the enemy's plot kicks off, goes rogue to foil it.
• Repeatedly fought the Vajra to a standstill and achieved minor victories, then rescued the Vajra from the real threat once they uncovered it all on their own.
• Regional commander is a respected veteran.
• Organizationally sound, able to manage extended independent operations in the field.
• No known security issues.
• Ace pilot guest character has a small cameo without distracting from the action.
• Top ace is a certified badass who eats pineapple and doesn't afraid of anything.
• Dead team member dies valiantly protecting the woman he loves, buying her time to join the fight and save thousands of civilians.

 

Let's be honest... which one of these would you want to hire?  I'm pretty sure it's not Xaos.

Well, that would explain Fist of the North Star, now wouldn't it? lol

Yeah... it's like comparing food from a 5-star Michelin Restaurant to Taco Bell. And Xaos doesn't even have Dorito tacos!

Edited December 27, 2021 by pengbuzz

[aurance]

Amusingly this kind of narrative intention vs exacting extrapolation of on-screen events always reminds me of what some people say about The Return of the Jedi, that the Rebels are careless a-holes who blew up a moon in low orbit of Ewok’s home, causing them all to die. No, guys, Rebels are heroes and Ewoks are fine, because RotJ was not written as a holocaust drama, just as Delta was not written as a slapstick satire of corporate ineptitude.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, aurance said:

Also, putting aside the pretty obvious real world narrative intentions that ameliorate your admittedly comical comparison, Xaos simply cannot exist for long as a company if they continuously suck at everything in the way that you imply.

*looks askance at several companies he works with on a daily basis*

... you sure?  My own professional experiences suggest to me that it's quite possible for a company that's objectively terrible at what it does to stay in business and even thrive if the customers are gullible enough, locked into a difficult-to-escape contract, or the company in question doesn't have any serious competitors in the target market.

Comcast and AT&T are the usual whipping boys for topics like that in terms of geographical market-monopolization.  There are plenty of others I could point to (e.g. Tesla) that are wildly inept and kept afloat by a small group of hardcore fans and large government subsidies.  There are a few outfits I've worked with where I know full well they're kept afloat by the difficulty of replacing them despite the issues caused by their poor quality.

 

1 hour ago, aurance said:

Regardless of how you (we) feel about it Delta wasn’t written to be a farce, and Xaos is supposed to take the role of cool heroes in an action anime and presumably there’s stuff behind the scenes to justify that tone. Funny list though.

... I mean, even if Delta wasn't a farce the results of Xaos's work and the manner in which they conduct themselves speak for themselves.

Putting aside the funny bits, quite a bit of that list is factual:

• Xaos's forces were, in legal terms, unlawful combatants in the declared war between Windermere IV and the Brisingr Alliance.  This was actually mentioned in the series, and the characters failed to refute it.
• Xaos's leadership all but completely refused to work with the local New UN Forces staff, which directly led to the New UN Spacy defense forces of multiple planets falling under Windermerean mind control and ultimately led to the loss of the entire globular cluster.
• Xaos conducted illegal cloning experiments in violation of interstellar law to create Mikumo.
• Xaos coerced Reina Prowler into working for them with the threat of criminal prosecution, which is itself a crime.
• Xaos's Brisingr Globular Cluster regional commander, Ernest Johnson, is notorious in-universe for being a failure as a commander.  His reputation/nickname is literally given as 百戦百敗・無冠の名指揮官 ("Hundred Battles, Hundred Defeats - Uncrowned Commander").
• That Xaos's forces are broke is the crux of an entire plot after they get run out of the Brisingr cluster.  That live concert they hold is explicitly to raise funds because they can't even afford ammunition and fuel.
• The paramilitary organization Heimdall was created to hunt down Xaos's leader, Lady M, because of her extensive interference in government and military affairs.

I phrased a lot of it in a joking manner but yeah, Xaos is a mess compared to SMS.

Would you hire a company you knew was involved in criminal activity?  Would you hire someone for a security job when it was a matter of record they were tried and convicted for breaking the laws of war?  Would you work with a company you knew was complicit in slavery?  Or whose leadership's reputation is so dire that they're mocked as incompetent or wanted dead for their involvement in flagrant corruption?

Seriously.

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

It's possible other branches of Xaos aren't as bad at this stuff, but the Ragna branch has to eat that I think.

Even if you want to put some of that purely on the Ragna branch, some of that goes right to the top because it was ordered by Lady M... e.g. the slavery, the illegal cloning, etc.  

Even if it's just the one branch, that it's allowed to continue operating like that is a glaring, glaring problem that reflects poorly on the company as a whole.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, aurance said:

Amusingly this kind of narrative intention vs exacting extrapolation of on-screen events always reminds me of what some people say about The Return of the Jedi, that the Rebels are careless a-holes who blew up a moon in low orbit of Ewok’s home, causing them all to die. No, guys, Rebels are heroes and Ewoks are fine, because RotJ was not written as a holocaust drama, just as Delta was not written as a slapstick satire of corporate ineptitude.

Eh... we're basically in the gap between Return of the Jedi and the point where the novelists felt compelled to address the point by explicitly and on no uncertain terms stating that that outcome absolutely would've happened had the Rebel fleet not put in a herculean effort to contain the damage in the wake of the battle.

Xaos has explicitly been involved in a lot of explicitly shady BS... and they don't have an out like that (yet).  The writers explicitly put them in those positions, and then just expected the audience to forget the heroes are keeping Mikumo as a slave, that her creation was illegal, that Xaos's involvement in the war is illegal to the point the protagonists were tried for it and only escaped execution for it via jailbreak, etc. ten minutes later at most.

I understand TV Tropes likes to call this kind of a thing a "karma houdini"...

[Master Dex]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even if you want to put some of that purely on the Ragna branch, some of that goes right to the top because it was ordered by Lady M... e.g. the slavery, the illegal cloning, etc.  

Even if it's just the one branch, that it's allowed to continue operating like that is a glaring, glaring problem that reflects poorly on the company as a whole.

Agreed, I offered the idea of Ragna being the wobbly leg simply to be fair as it's not my intent to just complain about Delta. I don't dislike Delta. I recognize it has serious writing issues, and if some of this stuff isn't intentional then it's even more glaring and I believe Macross writers should do better. If it is intentional I would like to see some acknowledgment of it in story otherwise I am not sure why they are being so blatant for nothing. They could do less of this and still have the characters be the heroes.

[RedWolf]

5 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I think market location matters too, I'm not sure they operate in the same galactic sectors. Certainly SMS isn't seen in Brisingr, and Xaos is said to have branches too but we haven't seen where.

The only common area where SMS and Xaos both operate is the Laramis system where Sephira is. Sephira is mentioned a bit often that I think it is vital in connecting NUN territories. Discovered, terraformed and colonized in 2033 by Macross 4. Isamu stopped there before jumping to Eden. Sephira's Hyde City was the battlefield between VF-X Ravens and Black Rainbow. VF-X2 has the MC travel between frontier planets in missions and within Sol itself. Leon Sasaki folded out from Sephira to Ouroboros. Also in 2059 Sephira was attacked by Lost Zentradi. Messer was supposed to transfer to Xaos Laramis system branch. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Agreed, I offered the idea of Ragna being the wobbly leg simply to be fair as it's not my intent to just complain about Delta. I don't dislike Delta. I recognize it has serious writing issues, and if some of this stuff isn't intentional then it's even more glaring and I believe Macross writers should do better. If it is intentional I would like to see some acknowledgment of it in story otherwise I am not sure why they are being so blatant for nothing. They could do less of this and still have the characters be the heroes.

Yeah... I can understand wanting to have a morally complex protagonist that isn't simply a White Knight (lol) boldly charging down the Forces of Evil from a position of total moral superiority, but the way Macross Delta handles it is just WEIRD.

The writers will bring up something heinous Xaos did, then immediately sweep it under the rug and never mention it again.  It's probably most blatant when Hayate, Mirage, and Freyja are put on trial on Windermere in episode 24.  Mirage tries to invoke the spacefuture version of the Geneva Conventions regarding treatment of prisoners of war and is told flat-out by the tribunal that because they're mercenaries they're unlawful combatants not legally eligible for prisoner-of-war protections.  Even after they escape, none of the three bring that little point up with their superiors... or anyone else.  You'd think that'd be something pretty damned important to discuss, that your entire organization is participating in a war illegally.

In hindsight, it's actually really surprising that's the first we hear of it.  You'd think someone - and whatever their faults, the Xaos staff are not stupid people - would've had enough presence of mind to point out that mercenaries can't legally participate in a war like that.  (That wouldn't have been a new development either, by the time the series is set that was a on the books as a part of the laws of war for 90 years.)

Strategic Military Services at least gets a pass in that the Vajra neither knew nor cared about the laws of war.

[JB0]

Yeah, I think that's one where the writers expect us to take away "Look at these windermerian jerks using legal nitpickery to deny our heroes their rights!" and didn't really consider what they actually just said was "our heroes are literally war criminals".

[aurance]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... we're basically in the gap between Return of the Jedi and the point where the novelists felt compelled to address the point by explicitly and on no uncertain terms stating that that outcome absolutely would've happened had the Rebel fleet not put in a herculean effort to contain the damage in the wake of the battle.

Xaos has explicitly been involved in a lot of explicitly shady BS... and they don't have an out like that (yet).  The writers explicitly put them in those positions, and then just expected the audience to forget the heroes are keeping Mikumo as a slave, that her creation was illegal, that Xaos's involvement in the war is illegal to the point the protagonists were tried for it and only escaped execution for it via jailbreak, etc. ten minutes later at most.

I understand TV Tropes likes to call this kind of a thing a "karma houdini"...

Exactly. This isn’t stellar writing. But that’s one of the reasons why we don’t take it as real life with logical consequences. So ignoring writing intent and just trying to extrapolate without it leads to not a whole lot more than cliched pot shots and then in a circle right back to “it’s bad writing”.

Edited December 28, 2021 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, aurance said:

Exactly. This isn’t stellar writing. But that’s one of the reasons why we don’t take it as real life with logical consequences.

The irony in this statement is that for a fair number of those, the show indicates there are/will be consequences... and then just forgets.

But yeah, it's bloody awful writing... though looping pack to the question that prompted this, if you were choosing between hiring Xaos and SMS, would you really want to hire the one that's on the wrong side of the law so often?  It's not exactly implied that these things are secret... or at least, that the Windermereans are going to go public and condemn Xaos for the illegal clone operation they have going.

[aurance]

Hah. Yes, for the second time, based solely on the initial question “bang for the buck,” depends on how much buck and what you want the bang to be.

[Master Dex]

Yeah I don't care how much more expensive SMS is, if hiring Xaos means getting these law dodging operations that'd potentially leave me liable, then the money is worth giving to the real professionals.

And that's assuming I actually need a PMC for the job if the cost is that much of a concern.

[aurance]

3 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Yeah I don't care how much more expensive SMS is, if hiring Xaos means getting these law dodging operations that'd potentially leave me liable, then the money is worth giving to the real professionals.

And that's assuming I actually need a PMC for the job if the cost is that much of a concern.

That’s why presumably whoever’s doing the hiding would have risk assessment to factor in the liability. Both companies have military hardware and skilled operators that can do routine things without shooting their feet off, much like, say, Comcast and Tesla, Seto’s hyperbole about incompetence notwithstanding.

Edited December 28, 2021 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, aurance said:

Hah. Yes, for the second time, based solely on the initial question “bang for the buck,” depends on how much buck and what you want the bang to be.

Yeah, though when all is said and done the difference between the two seems to mostly come down to the quality and professionalism of their troops.

Xaos is amateur hour.  They're unprofessional.  Uncooperative.  Even sloppy.  Their recruitment standards are low and their forces are full of troops whose personal problems led them to quit the New UN Forces.  They even tolerate downright insubordinate behavior and unnecessary risk-taking from their troops.  They don't properly vet their equipment.

By comparison, SMS are consummate professionals.  Their soldiers are well-drilled, efficient, and motivated.  Recruitment standards are high, with troops recruited away from the New UN Forces, who quit the New UN Forces on principle, or who were drawn from top level pilot trainees in vocational programs.  They work well in concert with the New UN Forces and on their own.  They get better results than Xaos with less powerful or expensive equipment because the quality of their soldiers is so much higher.

 

Basically, you get what you pay for... if you cheap out, you suffer the consequences of having cheaped out.  IMO, it's worth more in the long run to spend more and have the peace of mind of a job done well instead of cheaping out and having to clean up the resultant mess.

[JB0]

59 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IMO, it's worth more in the long run to spend more and have the peace of mind of a job done well instead of cheaping out and having to clean up the resultant mess.

ESPECIALLY if the resulting mess involves a protoculture relic that might cause galaxy-spanning disruption. Earth is going to want to have words with you afterwards. Lots of words. Most of them harsh, and delivered to the inside of a thoroughly unpleasant cell.

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, JB0 said:

ESPECIALLY if the resulting mess involves a protoculture relic that might cause galaxy-spanning disruption. Earth is going to want to have words with you afterwards. Lots of words. Most of them harsh, and delivered to the inside of a thoroughly unpleasant cell.

Not to mention with the incidents already going on with Macross Galaxy (and the previous Sharon Apple Incident), the New UN Government cannot afford more scandals to keep cropping up. I can imagine interplanetary relations with colony worlds that are concerned (as well as other fleets still in-transit) are tense as it stands.

But in any event, I am going to withdraw from this portion of the convo, as I have friends on both sides.

Edited December 28, 2021 by pengbuzz

[RedWolf]

We have to note though Xaos was not hired to fight Windermere but to perform Anti-Var operations. As it is viewed as an epidemic. It just turns out Windermere weaponized it. With help from Epsilon Foundation. 

It just so happens the Tactical Sound Unit this time is from a private company not government or military sponsored like Sound Force, Jamming Birds, Milky Dolls, Sheryl and Ranka.

SMS does not have their own Fold Receptor Idols in the payroll. Xaos actively recruits them such as the Thrones and Walkure. But it is kinda hit or miss. Pirika in Macross E was the only one effective to calming Var among the Thrones. One of the Thrones, Blau Bloom, can actually make Var worse. Some people's biological Fold Waves like hers are more of the mind control effect like Tina Accra from Macross 7th Code, Chelsea Scarlet from Macross the Ride or Heinz. Of the original Walkure two had to retire due to PTSD. 

SMS does have optional equipment like Fold Amps for Deculture operations just that they do not have an active Fold Receptor Idol on the payroll. 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Not to mention with the incidents already going on with Macross Galaxy (and the previous Sharon Apple Incident), the New UN Government cannot afford more scandals to keep cropping up. I can imagine interplanetary relations with colony worlds that are concerned (as well as other fleets still in-transit) are tense as it stands.

Eh... I don't think it's quite that bad.  

After the Second Unification War, the New UN Government is letting the individual member governments manage their own affairs with a much greater degree of autonomy.  So a scandal occurring at the level of an individual emigrant government isn't likely to impact them unless some bureau under the central government or its armed forces is involved in causing it.

For instance, the Sharon Apple incident was a scandal for the New UN Government itself because the Macross Concern and Venus Sound Laboratory were developing the Sharon-type AI under a defense contract awarded to them by the New UN Gov't.  Macross Galaxy's bad behavior, on the other hand, was confined to the Macross Galaxy fleet itself and its corporate government so the violations of interstellar laws and treaties by the Galaxy Executives didn't involve the central government except perhaps in terms of prosecuting the offenders after the fact.  It's noted in Macross Delta that the New UN Government and the armed forces directly under its purview try to remain neutral in tiffs between the various local governments precisely to avoid ending up in politically difficult situations.

 

 

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

We have to note though Xaos was not hired to fight Windermere but to perform Anti-Var operations. As it is viewed as an epidemic. It just turns out Windermere weaponized it. With help from Epsilon Foundation. 

Granted, that is what Xaos was hired for.

The problem is that, once the Kingdom of the Wind made its formal declaration of war and the Aerial Knights began to operate openly under their nation's banner, Xaos's status as mercenaries and their continued participation in combat between the New UN Forces and Aerial Knights made them unlawful combatants.  If they'd left the Aerial Knights alone to focus on protecting Walkure or avoided combat altogether to focus on security for Walkure's anti-Var live concerts they'd have been fine.  Of course, participating in espionage is a whole other matter.  Even if they were legally considered soldiers and not mercenaries, being caught in disguise and behind enemy lines would also void their legal protectons.

In short, Xaos is remarkably blase about knowingly ordering its mercenary forces to violate the laws of war... and its forces are even more shockingly ignorant about the legality of the orders they're following.

(Which is still not even in the top five stupid things they've done... nothing will ever top their repeated decision to send the most recognizable celebrities in the entire star cluster on undercover operations behind enemy lines.  Especially since those people were also nigh-irreplaceable strategic assets.  You'd think they were trying to get Walkure killed, as hard as they work to needlessly endanger them.)

 

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

SMS does not have their own Fold Receptor Idols in the payroll.

They seem to have no problem asking top-tier idols with biological fold wave abilities for their help without having to maintain a captive idol group to recklessly endanger...

 

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Xaos actively recruits them such as the Thrones and Walkure. But it is kinda hit or miss. Pirika in Macross E was the only one effective to calming Var among the Thrones.

Of course, we should also note that the only members of Walkure who can actually accomplish anything are Mikumo and Freyja.  The other members are repeatedly shown to be pretty useless.  

[aurance]

Not to mention pulling the wool over every client and military-grade hardware vendor they do business with to turn them into psychos or idiots, and as a final cherry on top somehow turn Max Jenius into a psycho or idiot for working with them, am I right? Such power and incompetence combined! There certainly can't be different interpretation of some onscreen events or circumstances happening off-screen to make some degree of sense and fit into the narrative tone!

(FYI this is sarcasm. 😉)

Edited December 28, 2021 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, aurance said:

Not to mention pulling the wool over every client and military-grade hardware vendor they do business with to turn them into psychos or idiots, [...]

I know you said you intended this as sarcasm, but there's some unintended hilarity in that their suppliers were absolutely already psychos...

Remember, Xaos bought a lot of the equipment that wasn't on loan to it from the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces through Epsilon Foundation subsidiaries... and you know what they're like.  They one-stop shopped a worse war profiteer than Anaheim Electronics.  At least AE could blame the divisions that used to be Zeonic and Zimmad for their covertly selling arms to Neo Zeon.  Epsilon has no such excuse.

[JB0]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

undercover operations behind enemy lines

So... did they ever explain how those prosthetic runes they were wearing were supposed to work?
Because it seemed on the face of it to be an INCREDIBLY bad idea to wear prosthetic replicas of an organ designed to facilitate some level of empathic communication. My impression was that every windermerian they walked past should be going "wait, I can't feel their rune... is that actually just a chunk of plastic?", but no one blinked twice.

I don't really want to just bag on the show for the sake of it, but that was actually the point at which I stopped cutting the writers any slack because it made so little sense, and I'd like to know if this is a case of "there is a perfectly logical explanation for why this worked that was buried in one of the tie-in comics" or if they really did just completely forgot that the windermerians don't wear costume jewelry in their hair.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, JB0 said:

So... did they ever explain how those prosthetic runes they were wearing were supposed to work?
Because it seemed on the face of it to be an INCREDIBLY bad idea to wear prosthetic replicas of an organ designed to facilitate some level of empathic communication. My impression was that every windermerian they walked past should be going "wait, I can't feel their rune... is that actually just a chunk of plastic?", but no one blinked twice.

... well, as far as how they're supposed to work... they don't.  At least, not that way.  It's possible they're articulated like the cat ears, tails, and claws Walkure and Delta Flight wore when they infiltrated Voldor, but they provide no empathic ability.

The gaiden manga White Knight of the Black Wing has almost the exact scenario you describe occur when Roid and Keith meet an undercover Wright Immelmann, disguised as a Windermerean.  They notice more or less right away that they can't feel anything from his runes and aren't quite buying his cover story of being a traveler, but because he was only asking for directions and their minds were on other things they initially shrug off the whole encounter.

Trying to go undercover on a planet of empaths whose abilities only work with their own species is an admittedly terrible idea.  Especially if some members of the team have their own anatomical oddities that'd give the game away immediately like Mirage's pointed Zentradi ears.  To their credit, they seem to have been well aware their disguises wouldn't be convincing up close for exactly that reason and tried to keep their distance and let Freyja do any necessary talking in the hopes that they'd look the part from outside of the range of empathic communication.  (Or at least hope that the locals in Freyja's village would accept her word that the Xaos crew had no intention to do anyone any harm.)

[TehPW]

On 12/27/2021 at 11:24 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, though when all is said and done the difference between the two seems to mostly come down to the quality and professionalism of their troops.

Xaos is amateur hour.  They're unprofessional.  Uncooperative.  Even sloppy.  Their recruitment standards are low and their forces are full of troops whose personal problems led them to quit the New UN Forces.  They even tolerate downright insubordinate behavior and unnecessary risk-taking from their troops.  They don't properly vet their equipment.

By comparison, SMS are consummate professionals.  Their soldiers are well-drilled, efficient, and motivated.  Recruitment standards are high, with troops recruited away from the New UN Forces, who quit the New UN Forces on principle, or who were drawn from top level pilot trainees in vocational programs.  They work well in concert with the New UN Forces and on their own.  They get better results than Xaos with less powerful or expensive equipment because the quality of their soldiers is so much higher.

 

Basically, you get what you pay for... if you cheap out, you suffer the consequences of having cheaped out.  IMO, it's worth more in the long run to spend more and have the peace of mind of a job done well instead of cheaping out and having to clean up the resultant mess.

Those troops didn't quit the NUNS, they were either kicked-out outright as BCD 'winners' or simply denied the opportunity to reenlist (Nah, dawg. We can keep your billet empty. Even IF your presence was needed, it isn't wanted). That's for the enlisted side. The officers, either they were cashiered out or forced to resign (because they would NOT promote them). 

Edited December 30, 2021 by TehPW
High-Year Tenure is presumable still a thing in the Macross worlds, just like in Real Life....

[Seto Kaiba]

32 minutes ago, TehPW said:

Those troops didn't quit the NUNS, they were either kicked-out outright as BCD 'winners' or simply denied the opportunity to reenlist (Nah, dawg. We can keep your billet empty. Even IF your presence was needed, it isn't wanted). That's for the enlisted side. The officers, either they were cashiered out or forced to resign (because they would NOT promote them). 

As far as we know, the only one of the lot who received a BCD invitation to leave was Ozma Lee in the Macross Frontier novelization.  He was let go after he attempted some percussive behavioral correction on a member of the board of inquiry into the loss of the 117th Research Fleet for aggravating Ranka's severe PTSD.  It turns out assaulting a really well-connected civilian during a military legal proceeding is a poor career choice even if they REALLY deserve it.  The other ex-NUNS members of SMS are not indicated to have been forced out, such as Henry Gilliam Ford or Jeffrey Wilder.

Mirage Jenius explicitly quit the New UN Forces of her own accord because she couldn't cope with the expectations of greatness that came with her family name, being a pilot of only average skill.  Arad Molders is strongly implied to have quit the New UN Forces because of personal issues caused by the Windermere war of independence.  Chuck... we're not really sure what his deal is, but he seems to have quit the New UN Forces for personal reasons too given his reaction to being asked about fighting humans.  Messer seems to have gotten himself the spacefuture version of a Section 8 or AR 635-200 for SEVERE PTSD after the Alfheim Var riots.

[RedWolf]

According to a WW2 survey of infantrymen by Gen. M.L.A. Marshal only 10 to 15 percent of soldiers shoot to kill. Most people are reluctant to kill people and be killed themselves. The US Army took note and adjusted training so soldiers won't be in the battlefield.

There is a reluctance in Macross for some characters to take a life. Hikaru was shocked the aliens were persons. Giants but persons. Even as a later veteran he would rather not go lethal in police action against Zentradi. In Macross VF-X2 Gilliam Angreat asked Aegis Focker who they were fighting. Is it Zentradi or Protodevlin? No it is

fellow Humans. Lactence was misusing Special Forces to supress frontier planets. Vajra aren't and after being constantly attacked NUNS pilots were enthusiastic in killing them as they were not Human. Meltrandi that grew up in Terran culture show reluctance in killing people. Klan told Nene they are lucky they were not fighting fellow Zentradi. Chelsea Scarlett was frustrated despite being a full blooded Zentradi she can't take the shot to kill. Mirage also showed reluctance in killing during her first sortie against anti-UN forces as a NUNS pilot.

 

On the other side of the coin there are Zentradi who can't adjust to a civilian life and seek battles. Quamzin and Laplamiz chose to fight even if they had the option to settle down as they are too indoctrinated by their programming. Then there is Angers 672 who chose her Zentradi instincts to to fight. There is some genetic predisposition among Zentradi for aggression but being exposed to Protodevlin derived technology may have made Angers 672 more likely to do so. Protodevlin and Evil Series has an effect on Zentradi fight or flight responses. 

 

Some Zentradi treat their aggression as a medical issue. Hence either taking medication or using implants.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

According to a WW2 survey of infantrymen by Gen. M.L.A. Marshal only 10 to 15 percent of soldiers shoot to kill. Most people are reluctant to kill people and be killed themselves. The US Army took note and adjusted training so soldiers won't be in the battlefield.

There is a reluctance in Macross for some characters to take a life. Hikaru was shocked the aliens were persons. Giants but persons. Even as a later veteran he would rather not go lethal in police action against Zentradi.

WRT the part that was on topic...

There's no indication that any of the characters who left the New UN Forces to join a PMC did so because they were unable/unwilling to kill if the situation called for it.  They've only done that with one character so far, and that was Chelsea Scarlett in Macross the Ride.

For Arad and Chuck, the issue that drove them out of the military seems to have been who they were fighting and why.  The 2060 war with Windermere IV seems to have been a sore spot for a fair number of New UN Forces soldiers.  They hint that Chuck has some bad memories/issues involving a conflict he participated in where the enemies were human.  Mirage left for issues totally unrelated to combat.  Messer's issues... well... he seems to be a little too willing to kill.

[pengbuzz]

18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

WRT the part that was on topic...

There's no indication that any of the characters who left the New UN Forces to join a PMC did so because they were unable/unwilling to kill if the situation called for it.  They've only done that with one character so far, and that was Chelsea Scarlett in Macross the Ride.

For Arad and Chuck, the issue that drove them out of the military seems to have been who they were fighting and why.  The 2060 war with Windermere IV seems to have been a sore spot for a fair number of New UN Forces soldiers.  They hint that Chuck has some bad memories/issues involving a conflict he participated in where the enemies were human.  Mirage left for issues totally unrelated to combat.  Messer's issues... well... he seems to be a little too willing to kill.

Back into the convo (now that it passed the previous part) with a few questions for you:

1) Admittedly, I never served in the military, but my dad did (combat veteran). He told me in our conversations back when he was alive that the Army didn't want soldiers who were "too willing to kill" because they could easily go overboard and end up at the very least killing enemies illegally or killing non-combatants. I assume that UN Spacy/ NUNS would adhere to the same thing, being derived from modern militaries?

2) On another topic: in Macross, I know of two PMC's: SMS and Xaos. Are those the only two, or are there more out there? I don't know if any are mentioned in the games / manga/ other literature, etc.

3) From what I've read in these convo's and seen generally,  the Macross Galaxy fleet contingent of General Galaxy seem to be up to their elbows in some "not-so-savory" stuff. Now, what I'm thinking here may be "a bit out there", but given their predilection for leaving whatever morality they have left in the closet  in the name of expediency, I'm hoping you'll understand where I'm coming from.

So...would it be a far stretch for them to get the idea of either:

1) Harvesting the brains of dead pilots to use in their fighters (as some sort of "wetware" workaround on the AI ban/ restriction?)

And/or-

2) Attempting to clone human brains and use them in fighters for the same reason?

My reasoning here is that they would only need to address the G-force/ inertia issue for a compartment where the brain would be kept, and it would conceivably be easier to sustain life-support requirements for it (not as much oxygen needed, BDI/ BD control system direct link improving reaction times, possible added hardware to improve functioning/ reaction times).

Admittedly, this last one is weird and creeps me out (cannot believe I'm typing it!), so please feel free to disregard it if it's too much.

Thanks in advance.

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

On another topic: in Macross, I know of two PMC's: SMS and Xaos. Are those the only two, or are there more out there? I don't know if any are mentioned in the games / manga/ other literature, etc.

Private Army maybe. Manfred Brando CEO of Critical Path Corporation participated in battles during the Second Unification War. He had connections with the Black Market, General Galaxy, Lactence and Macross Galaxy. Even after he died... Twice! His technology is still used in Macross Delta. He invented the Zauber Flute Fold comm system using Fold Quartz. Which was installed by Epsilon Foundation on the Sigur Barrentz. He also invented the anti-FCS Sound Jamming System which was based on the Zauber Flute. Also when he died the first time he had a digital backup in Macross Galaxy.

 

Ernest Johnson captain of Macross Elysion was a mercenary during the Second Unification War joining both Black Rainbow and Lactence. He got a rep being a veteran that didn't win a battle.

 

Hunter Guild in Macross 30 perhaps can be described as freelance agents. Using VFs from couriering to escort missions.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Harvesting the brains of dead pilots to use in their fighters (as some sort of "wetware" workaround on the AI ban/ restriction?)

Macross Galaxy just reuses dead bodies and puts a new person in them.

Greenwich Meridian
Appeared in "Wired Warrior". Inspector General of the Information Department of the Macross Galaxy Fleet, a local operative of Planet Never dispatched by Brera in the actual battle test of the prototype YF-27-3 Shahar. The code name is "Aoi Kaze". A petite woman in an old-fashioned dress and a fan of Cheryl. Board the VF-22S and take charge of the Brera's battle. During the mission, he is killed by protecting Brera from a terrorist attack. Its identity is the prototype bioroid " Meridian 01 (Meridian Zero One)" developed by the Galaxy Fleet, and the cerebrum of the dead pilot is used and a new personality is planted. Brera's original mission is to test this, and after her death, she will be cremated by Brera, who hates the use of Meridian by the Galaxy fleet anymore.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

1) Admittedly, I never served in the military, but my dad did (combat veteran). He told me in our conversations back when he was alive that the Army didn't want soldiers who were "too willing to kill" because they could easily go overboard and end up at the very least killing enemies illegally or killing non-combatants. I assume that UN Spacy/ NUNS would adhere to the same thing, being derived from modern militaries?

Almost certainly, yes.

You could probably draw a connection there to the 33rd Marines being stationed out in the middle of bloody nowhere.

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

2) On another topic: in Macross, I know of two PMC's: SMS and Xaos. Are those the only two, or are there more out there? I don't know if any are mentioned in the games / manga/ other literature, etc.

No others have been mentioned to date.

Unless you want to count the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army, which was technically a private armed force though it operated under the auspices of the New UN Forces because the Macross Galaxy corporate government operated as a New UN Government member state.

There are likely others out there.  All of the PMCs that've been mentioned so far have been subsidiaries of megacorporations or mega-conglomerates... and there's plenty of those around in the Macross setting these days.

The Uroboros Hunter's Guild could be called a marginal case.  It's not organized like a military unit in any sense - and a fair number of people in-universe and out would say it really isn't organized at all - being a trade association and licensing body for private Valkyrie operators.  If you got all or even most of them together they'd be a fairly formidable force by sheer weight of numbers even though most of them are operating 1st and 2nd Generation Valkyries in a period when real militaries and PMCs are using 4th Generation Valkyries, but they're spread across a wide array of freelance gigs from bounty hunting to private security to resource gathering/prospecting and high-speed courier services.

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

3) From what I've read in these convo's and seen generally,  the Macross Galaxy fleet contingent of General Galaxy seem to be up to their elbows in some "not-so-savory" stuff. Now, what I'm thinking here may be "a bit out there", but given their predilection for leaving whatever morality they have left in the closet  in the name of expediency, I'm hoping you'll understand where I'm coming from.

So...would it be a far stretch for them to get the idea of either:

1) Harvesting the brains of dead pilots to use in their fighters (as some sort of "wetware" workaround on the AI ban/ restriction?)

As I've mentioned in past posts, the Macross Frontier short story Wired Warrior talks about the Macross Galaxy fleet's prototype attempt at this... a young lady named Greenwich Meridian, who is was made by reprogramming a salvaged brain from a dead New UN Forces soldier.  They don't seem to have taken it any farther than that, though.  Even Brera, who was a fully-cyborged soldier and subjected to mind control, found the entire idea repellant.

Mind you, neither Project Meridian nor its nominal rival Project Stella were intended to circumvent limitations on the usage of fully-autonomous combat AIs.  They were efforts to circumvent the two main logistical problems inherent in expanding the Macross Galaxy fleet's armed forces: the limited availability of people who are suitable for military service and the significant investment in time and resources it takes to train a soldier to the level of combat readiness.  Project Meridian tried to resolve the problem of availability by the simple expedient of reprogramming the brains of the recently deceased with an artificial personality and installing them in artificial bodies.  Project Stella tried to eliminate, or at least greatly abbreviate, the amount of time it takes to train a soldier by giving them a sort of artificial multiple personality disorder in the form of a combat AI that'd take over in combat.  Neither project seemed to pan out as expected, or at least never got far enough by the time of the fleet's destruction to be put into widespread practical use.

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

2) Attempting to clone human brains and use them in fighters for the same reason?

My reasoning here is that they would only need to address the G-force/ inertia issue for a compartment where the brain would be kept, and it would conceivably be easier to sustain life-support requirements for it (not as much oxygen needed, BDI/ BD control system direct link improving reaction times, possible added hardware to improve functioning/ reaction times).

Admittedly, this last one is weird and creeps me out (cannot believe I'm typing it!), so please feel free to disregard it if it's too much

Not that we know of.

Mind you, they wouldn't need to go that far.  Existing AI technology used in unmanned fighters can already achieve superhumanly-fast response times.  What the Ghost X-9's use of a Sharon-type AI was trying to achieve was fully-autonomous operation with a level of unpredictability rivaling a flesh-and-blood pilot.  The air combat AIs used in Ghosts can react much faster than a living pilot can, but their behavior is defined by preset routines and responses to specific criteria that make their behavior predictable in combat.  They require a certain amount of external direction in combat because of this.  

In 2059, LAI was working on a new approach to personality emulation in an attempt to achieve the same kind of unpredictability and autonomous operation as the Ghost X-9 but without the inherent instability of the Sharon-type AI.  They used SMS Skull Platoon as a model for the system.

When things came to a head in the TV series, Galaxy just used the fully-autonomous air combat software from the Ghost X-9 illegally...

[pengbuzz]

35 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Almost certainly, yes.

You could probably draw a connection there to the 33rd Marines being stationed out in the middle of bloody nowhere.

 

No others have been mentioned to date.

Unless you want to count the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army, which was technically a private armed force though it operated under the auspices of the New UN Forces because the Macross Galaxy corporate government operated as a New UN Government member state.

There are likely others out there.  All of the PMCs that've been mentioned so far have been subsidiaries of megacorporations or mega-conglomerates... and there's plenty of those around in the Macross setting these days.

The Uroboros Hunter's Guild could be called a marginal case.  It's not organized like a military unit in any sense - and a fair number of people in-universe and out would say it really isn't organized at all - being a trade association and licensing body for private Valkyrie operators.  If you got all or even most of them together they'd be a fairly formidable force by sheer weight of numbers even though most of them are operating 1st and 2nd Generation Valkyries in a period when real militaries and PMCs are using 4th Generation Valkyries, but they're spread across a wide array of freelance gigs from bounty hunting to private security to resource gathering/prospecting and high-speed courier services.

 

As I've mentioned in past posts, the Macross Frontier short story Wired Warrior talks about the Macross Galaxy fleet's prototype attempt at this... a young lady named Greenwich Meridian, who is was made by reprogramming a salvaged brain from a dead New UN Forces soldier.  They don't seem to have taken it any farther than that, though.  Even Brera, who was a fully-cyborged soldier and subjected to mind control, found the entire idea repellant.

Mind you, neither Project Meridian nor its nominal rival Project Stella were intended to circumvent limitations on the usage of fully-autonomous combat AIs.  They were efforts to circumvent the two main logistical problems inherent in expanding the Macross Galaxy fleet's armed forces: the limited availability of people who are suitable for military service and the significant investment in time and resources it takes to train a soldier to the level of combat readiness.  Project Meridian tried to resolve the problem of availability by the simple expedient of reprogramming the brains of the recently deceased with an artificial personality and installing them in artificial bodies.  Project Stella tried to eliminate, or at least greatly abbreviate, the amount of time it takes to train a soldier by giving them a sort of artificial multiple personality disorder in the form of a combat AI that'd take over in combat.  Neither project seemed to pan out as expected, or at least never got far enough by the time of the fleet's destruction to be put into widespread practical use.

 

Not that we know of.

Mind you, they wouldn't need to go that far.  Existing AI technology used in unmanned fighters can already achieve superhumanly-fast response times.  What the Ghost X-9's use of a Sharon-type AI was trying to achieve was fully-autonomous operation with a level of unpredictability rivaling a flesh-and-blood pilot.  The air combat AIs used in Ghosts can react much faster than a living pilot can, but their behavior is defined by preset routines and responses to specific criteria that make their behavior predictable in combat.  They require a certain amount of external direction in combat because of this.  

In 2059, LAI was working on a new approach to personality emulation in an attempt to achieve the same kind of unpredictability and autonomous operation as the Ghost X-9 but without the inherent instability of the Sharon-type AI.  They used SMS Skull Platoon as a model for the system.

When things came to a head in the TV series, Galaxy just used the fully-autonomous air combat software from the Ghost X-9 illegally...

Okay, thanks.

On that note: so the Galaxy fleet was destroyed? Poor civilians... but maybe it was a mercy.

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, thanks.

On that note: so the Galaxy fleet was destroyed? Poor civilians... but maybe it was a mercy.

Depends on continuity. TV continuity has Galaxy Mainland hidden away.

 

Battle Galaxy and it's escorts were at the Vajra homeworld during the final battle. So while Battle Galaxy was punched to pieces by Battle Frontier the fleet is unaccounted for.

In the Movie continuity Macross Galaxy was destroyed by Vajra. Hence taking over Battle Frontier.

 

In Sheryl Kiss the Galaxy Manga Macross Galaxy Senate leader murdered the civilian population of Macross Galaxy when she took control of the Vajra through Ranka.

 

Though for some reason Battle Astrea of the organization Heimdall which is led by Cromwell, a AI and pro-cybernetics advocate, sports the number 21 on its arms. And the hull on the arms is similar to Battle Galaxy. Is Battle Astrea a refurbished Battle 21/Galaxy we are not sure. Epsilon could've built it or refitted the remains. In Macross E they did refit a SDFN for mad scientist's experiment.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, thanks.

On that note: so the Galaxy fleet was destroyed? Poor civilians... but maybe it was a mercy.

Depends on the version.

Macross Frontier's TV anime version has the Macross Galaxy fleet appear to be wiped out by the Vajra early on, only to later reveal the distress call was disingenuous at best and the fleet used its supposed destruction to go under the radar and pursue their agenda against the Vajra.  In that version, the Mainland and at least a portion of the Galaxy fleet are revealed to still be out there after the Vajra and Macross Frontier fleet sink the Battle Galaxy and most of its escorts in orbit of the Vajra planet.

The Macross Frontier movie version reverses the scenario in almost every respect.  The Macross Frontier fleet receives the Macross Galaxy fleet's distress call, but presumes it to be part of a hostile intelligence operation and refuses to dispatch any reinforcements.  SMS sorties after being independently contracted to assist Macross Galaxy, and discovers tha the distress call was quite genuine... a dozen or so light escort warships full of refugees being all that's left of Macross Galaxy, with the Galaxy Executives hiding among them and reworking their plan to capture and use the Battle Frontier instead.

[Seto Kaiba]

That, of course, being why we're all very confused by the Battle Astraea... it looks for all the world to be a repaired, recommissioned Battle Galaxy, which shouldn't be possible given the ship was destroyed in both versions of Macross Frontier. 

Even if the wreckage was still orbiting the Vajra planet, you don't just sell off the wreck of a fleet flagship-grade space warship that was beyond state of the art just a few years prior.  (Someone has some explaining to do.)

(Unless, of course, there was more than one.  An oft-overlooked detail of the old City-class environment ships is that they technically had provision for THREE Battle-class ships to dock there even if they typically only had the primary dock occupied.)

[RedWolf]

Which reminds me Battle 5 was probably salvageable... If Gigille didn't blow up the planet.