Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/9/2021 at 2:59 PM, aurance said:

A question in a similar vein, do you think the VF-19F/S listed in Macross Mecha Manual Mac7 page are export monkey models? They still seem superior to the YF-19 prototype.

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Very likely, yes.

Based on what's said of the arms export restrictions imposed by the New UN Government in the wake of the Sharon Apple Incident in Macross Chronicle and Macross the Ride, it seems likely that any VF-19 or VF-22 outside those possessed by the central New UN Forces and VF-X Special Forces is at least technically a monkey model.  

Performance doesn't have to be reduced across the board for a design to be considered a "monkey model".  There just has to be a noticeable reduction of peformance or omission of features in some areas.

For example, the VF-19P that was provided to the Zola Patrol had its weapons bays replaced with fixed micro missile launchers and the fire control system had its target discovery rate dialed back.  The VF-19E monkey model specification that became the Frontier fleet's VF-19EF Caliburn had limiters imposed on various systems and the provided spec either omitted information for the airframe control AI, sensors, and other parts or the Frontier fleet felt they were substandard enough to order them replaced by new versions developed locally in the fleet.

So, even if the engine output wasn't dialed back there may be omissions or reductions in performance elsewhere in the aircraft that aren't mentioned (because the whole monkey model thing is a Frontier-era retcon).

[aurance]

Cool, thanks.

[Bolt]

  On 10/9/2021 at 8:14 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Very likely, yes.

Based on what's said of the arms export restrictions imposed by the New UN Government in the wake of the Sharon Apple Incident in Macross Chronicle and Macross the Ride, it seems likely that any VF-19 or VF-22 outside those possessed by the central New UN Forces and VF-X Special Forces is at least technically a monkey model.  

Performance doesn't have to be reduced across the board for a design to be considered a "monkey model".  There just has to be a noticeable reduction of peformance or omission of features in some areas.

For example, the VF-19P that was provided to the Zola Patrol had its weapons bays replaced with fixed micro missile launchers and the fire control system had its target discovery rate dialed back.  The VF-19E monkey model specification that became the Frontier fleet's VF-19EF Caliburn had limiters imposed on various systems and the provided spec either omitted information for the airframe control AI, sensors, and other parts or the Frontier fleet felt they were substandard enough to order them replaced by new versions developed locally in the fleet.

So, even if the engine output wasn't dialed back there may be omissions or reductions in performance elsewhere in the aircraft that aren't mentioned (because the whole monkey model thing is a Frontier-era retcon).

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Is it safe to say Isamu's VF-19 is a one off , ultra high performance dearh trap that , pretty much, only Dyson could master ?

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/10/2021 at 7:23 PM, Bolt said:

Is it safe to say Isamu's VF-19 is a one off , ultra high performance dearh trap that , pretty much, only Dyson could master ?

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Isamu's custom VF-19 from Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye is a two-off (one spare aircraft) that is in most respects a downgraded monkey model.

It started out as a VF-19EF Caliburn - the Frontier fleet's 2058 local derivative of the VF-19E export spec - and was progressively retrofitted to return its aerodynamics and as many onboard systems as possible to the YF-19 specification.  It's noted that they couldn't go all the way back to the YF-19-2 that Isamu was so in love with, so they got as close as they could (which in many cases was YF-19-3, the first prototype to have the next-gen airframe control AI package "ARIEL").  It has a much newer engine than the YF-19-3 had, but many of its modifications are meant to undo and revert the nearly twenty years of patient performance and handling refinements made by Shinsei Industry's engineers in their efforts to address the defects that led to the VF-19 being dropped as the 4th Gen main fighter.  Isamu's desire was to return the VF-19 to the unstable monster that practically nobody in the New UN Forces could control.

Its performance specs aren't too much different from the Caliburn's, but it has the oversensitive handling of the original YF-19 with none of the optimization and safety upgrades that came after.

[NightmarePlus]

I have a question regarding the G-Limits of 5th Gens like the VF-25 compared to older 4th Gens like the 19 (Specifically the F and S types) and the VF-22. On the Mecha manual the 19F and 22S are listed as having an airframe limit of +35.5/- 19.5 and +60.0/- 45.0 respectively, so i was wondering if the 27.5 G's listed for the VF-25 is what the airframe is actually capable of taking for a 5th Gen or is that just what the ISC is rated for.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/13/2021 at 12:04 PM, NightmarePlus said:

I have a question regarding the G-Limits of 5th Gens like the VF-25 compared to older 4th Gens like the 19 (Specifically the F and S types) and the VF-22. On the Mecha manual the 19F and 22S are listed as having an airframe limit of +35.5/- 19.5 and +60.0/- 45.0 respectively, so i was wondering if the 27.5 G's listed for the VF-25 is what the airframe is actually capable of taking for a 5th Gen or is that just what the ISC is rated for.

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The figure given for the 5th Gen VFs is the ISC buffer capacity only.

The structural g-load limit would have to be a lot higher since even the humblest of them can easily do 30G+ of acceleration from a standing start.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/13/2021 at 12:53 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The figure given for the 5th Gen VFs is the ISC buffer capacity only.

The structural g-load limit would have to be a lot higher since even the humblest of them can easily do 30G+ of acceleration from a standing start.

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And without the ISC, reduce a pilot to a thinly-spread paste in less time than it takes to set the time for nachos and cheese in a microwave oven...

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/13/2021 at 1:52 PM, pengbuzz said:

And without the ISC, reduce a pilot to a thinly-spread paste in less time than it takes to set the time for nachos and cheese in a microwave oven...

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Or, at the very least, an unconscious and completely useless passenger in a very expensive missile.

[azrael]

The human body can, surprisingly, withstand 30+ Gs. Granted for no more than a few seconds. IIRC, you have to hit somewhere around a sustained 20-something Gs or ~50-75 Gs instantaneously where you will get turned into meat glue. But you'll be unconscious 1st well before that happens at that many Gs.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/13/2021 at 5:07 PM, azrael said:

The human body can, surprisingly, withstand 30+ Gs. Granted for no more than a few seconds. IIRC, you have to hit somewhere around a sustained 20-something Gs or ~50-75 Gs instantaneously where you will get turned into meat glue. But you'll be unconscious 1st well before that happens at that many Gs.

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Meat glue?

Did you break a steak or something? O.o

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/13/2021 at 5:07 PM, azrael said:

The human body can, surprisingly, withstand 30+ Gs. Granted for no more than a few seconds. IIRC, you have to hit somewhere around a sustained 20-something Gs or ~50-75 Gs instantaneously where you will get turned into meat glue. But you'll be unconscious 1st well before that happens at that many Gs.

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IIRC, the human body's g-force tolerance is actually somewhat better in the reverse position (facing away from the direction of travel).  

Of course, with 5th Gen VFs capable of anywhere from 30.5-40G of acceleration, the ISC becomes very necessary to avoid G-LOC, injury, or worse.

[azrael]

  On 10/13/2021 at 5:53 PM, pengbuzz said:

Meat glue?

Did you break a steak or something? O.o

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Fine. Meat goop.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/13/2021 at 6:08 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

IIRC, the human body's g-force tolerance is actually somewhat better in the reverse position (facing away from the direction of travel).  

Of course, with 5th Gen VFs capable of anywhere from 30.5-40G of acceleration, the ISC becomes very necessary to avoid G-LOC, injury, or worse.

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Or Tone-Loc

  On 10/13/2021 at 6:30 PM, azrael said:

Fine. Meat goop.

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EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww......

Edited October 13, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/13/2021 at 6:30 PM, azrael said:

Fine. Meat goop.

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"Chunky salsa".

Though !y favorite way of putting it is "a flight suit full of gazpacho".

[aurance]

  On 10/13/2021 at 7:55 PM, pengbuzz said:

Or Tone-Loc

EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww......

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First time I’ve heard this name mentioned in years 😝😝

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/15/2021 at 12:27 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

"Chunky salsa".

Though !y favorite way of putting it is "a flight suit full of gazpacho".

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Yeah, I thought of mentioning "chunky salsa" (first found the term in the ST:TNG Technical Manual by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda), but I felt I had overused it on the several occasions we talked on this topic.

Col. Johnson: "Someone want to pour Lt. Dyson out of his flight suit?"

Edited October 15, 2021 by pengbuzz

[twich]

So now that the new Macross Delta movie has released, do we have any information/new source material for the variable fighters in the movie?

how is the VF-31AX Kairos Plus different than VF-31 Siegfried?

is Max’s YF-29 any different than Alto’s even though it has been almost 10 years since we first say the YF-29 introduced?

how overpowering is this new SV-303?

Twich

Edited October 26, 2021 by twich

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/26/2021 at 8:32 PM, twich said:

So now that the new Macross Delta movie has released, do we have any information/new source material for the variable fighters in the movie?

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None that I've seen.

 

  On 10/26/2021 at 8:32 PM, twich said:

how is the VF-31AX Kairos Plus different than VF-31 Siegfried?

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From what's been said, it's some kind of improvised field modification that uses more fold quartz than the Siegfried type did.

 

  On 10/26/2021 at 8:32 PM, twich said:

is Max’s YF-29 any different than Alto’s even though it has been almost 10 years since we first say the YF-29 introduced?

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Search me.

 

  On 10/26/2021 at 8:32 PM, twich said:

how overpowering is this new SV-303?

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Can't be that good if all it's doing is bodying a bunch of third string nobodies like Xaos and Windermere IV's Aerial Knights. 😴

[NightmarePlus]

  On 10/26/2021 at 8:32 PM, twich said:

is Max’s YF-29 any different than Alto’s even though it has been almost 10 years since we first say the YF-29 introduced?

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Although we don't know for sure, it could be that Max's YF-29 was manufactured using purpose built parts for the craft in contrast to Alto's YF-29 that had to be assembled partially out of VF-25 parts.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/27/2021 at 3:01 PM, NightmarePlus said:

Although we don't know for sure, it could be that Max's YF-29 was manufactured using purpose built parts for the craft in contrast to Alto's YF-29 that had to be assembled partially out of VF-25 parts.

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On a side note: that makes me wonder how Max would have performed in the YF-19? I know that craft killed some pilots and crippled others, and given Max's skills, how that would have panned out?

[deathzealot]

Considering he piloted a VF-22 during his days as commander of the Macross Seven. I would think he could fly a VF-19. 

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/27/2021 at 4:33 PM, deathzealot said:

Considering he piloted a VF-22 during his days as commander of the Macross Seven. I would think he could fly a VF-19. 

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The thing is though: I'm talking about the YF-19, not the VF-19 or VF-21. The YF-19 had a control system and thrust/ engine suite that made it nearly impossible for most pilots to fly. As for the VF-22 Sturmvogel, it lacks the Brain Direct Interface system (BDS) and Brain Direct Image system (BDI) that the the YF-21 Omega One possessed.

While I believe Max could have handled either, I'd be interested to see what folks think.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/27/2021 at 3:01 PM, NightmarePlus said:

Although we don't know for sure, it could be that Max's YF-29 was manufactured using purpose built parts for the craft in contrast to Alto's YF-29 that had to be assembled partially out of VF-25 parts.

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It's possible... though given that it's a YF-29 and not a YF-29B, and that it's operating out in an area where the emigrant governments and even the megacorps seem to be operating on hair shirt budgets, I'd assume it was probably made using a fair amount of the same VF-25 hardware adopted by the VF-31 to keep costs down.

 

  On 10/27/2021 at 4:29 PM, pengbuzz said:

On a side note: that makes me wonder how Max would have performed in the YF-19? I know that craft killed some pilots and crippled others, and given Max's skills, how that would have panned out?

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It's Max... he and Milia are basically the two best ace pilots to ever set foot in a cockpit.

The dude's basically running life with cheats enabled.

 

  On 10/27/2021 at 9:38 PM, pengbuzz said:

The thing is though: I'm talking about the YF-19, not the VF-19 or VF-21. The YF-19 had a control system and thrust/ engine suite that made it nearly impossible for most pilots to fly. As for the VF-22 Sturmvogel, it lacks the Brain Direct Interface system (BDS) and Brain Direct Image system (BDI) that the the YF-21 Omega One possessed.

While I believe Max could have handled either, I'd be interested to see what folks think.

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I'm sure Max would've found it challenging, but he's got Creator's Pet-tier plot armor.  The only character I can think of who has that level or better in plot armor is Kira "Jesus" Yamato from Mobile Suit Gundam SEED.

Yeah, the YF-19-1 and YF-19-2 were kinda janky due to their use of a previous-gen airframe control AI and their high thrust-to-weight ratio and those control issues put several less-than-exceptional pilots in the ICU or in the grave, but Max is Max.  He handles a VF-22 like it's nothing, and there isn't a very large difference in their thrust to weight ratios.  I think he would quickly adapt to the peaky handling of the YF-19, though probably not to the extent of actually enjoying it like that nutjob Isamu.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/27/2021 at 10:30 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It's possible... though given that it's a YF-29 and not a YF-29B, and that it's operating out in an area where the emigrant governments and even the megacorps seem to be operating on hair shirt budgets, I'd assume it was probably made using a fair amount of the same VF-25 hardware adopted by the VF-31 to keep costs down.

 

It's Max... he and Milia are basically the two best ace pilots to ever set foot in a cockpit.

The dude's basically running life with cheats enabled.

 

I'm sure Max would've found it challenging, but he's got Creator's Pet-tier plot armor.  The only character I can think of who has that level or better in plot armor is Kira "Jesus" Yamato from Mobile Suit Gundam SEED.

Yeah, the YF-19-1 and YF-19-2 were kinda janky due to their use of a previous-gen airframe control AI and their high thrust-to-weight ratio and those control issues put several less-than-exceptional pilots in the ICU or in the grave, but Max is Max.  He handles a VF-22 like it's nothing, and there isn't a very large difference in their thrust to weight ratios.  I think he would quickly adapt to the peaky handling of the YF-19, though probably not to the extent of actually enjoying it like that nutjob Isamu.

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Yeah, I thought Max would be able to handle it, but I just wanted an unbiased opinion. Thanks.

And yeah: Isamu is a nutjob! lol

[RedWolf]

  On 10/27/2021 at 9:38 PM, pengbuzz said:

As for the VF-22 Sturmvogel, it lacks the Brain Direct Interface system (BDS) and Brain Direct Image system (BDI) that the the YF-21 Omega One possessed.

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The  VF-22 and VF-22S does have a simplified BDI with manual controls. BDS was also mentioned in Gamlin's checklist on his VF-22S in Mylene Beat. Though from my understanding the literature treats the BDS and BDI as one and the same. The VF-22HG on the other hand returns to the specs of the YF-21 along with accommodation for pilots with cybernetics implants. Todo's VF-22 was also equipped for cyborgs. Wilbur Garland's VF-22 has the Sound Jamming System. The Manfred AI's VF-22 has the Zauber Flute, much like the Sigur Barrentz as Manfred Brando was the inventor, and the ISC used for the VF-24.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/28/2021 at 2:03 PM, RedWolf said:

The  VF-22 and VF-22S does have a simplified BDI with manual controls. BDS was also mentioned in Gamlin's checklist on his VF-22S in Mylene Beat. Though from my understanding the literature treats the BDS and BDI as one and the same. The VF-22HG on the other hand returns to the specs of the YF-21 along with accommodation for pilots with cybernetics implants. Todo's VF-22 was also equipped for cyborgs. Wilbur Garland's VF-22 has the Sound Jamming System. The Manfred AI's VF-22 has the Zauber Flute, much like the Sigur Barrentz as Manfred Brando was the inventor, and the ISC used for the VF-24.

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Ah, gotcha. My mistake, I stand corrected.

(or sit corrected at my pc browsing MacrossWorld, as the case may be).

[NightmarePlus]

Random question, but does the VF-31 Master File shed light on information regarding the class of Macross type ships Elysion and her sister ships belong to?

[RedWolf]

  On 10/28/2021 at 6:12 PM, NightmarePlus said:

Random question, but does the VF-31 Master File shed light on information regarding the class of Macross type ships Elysion and her sister ships belong to?

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They are called Two-Third Class in VF Master File.

[deathzealot]

  On 10/28/2021 at 6:21 PM, RedWolf said:

They are called Two-Third Class in VF Master File.

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Blink. Jeez. That is worst then the Macross Quarter Class. I always called them the Macross Elysion Class in my head canon. Or for my own fanfiction I had them called the Macross Pathfinder Class. 

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/28/2021 at 7:07 PM, deathzealot said:

Blink. Jeez. That is worst then the Macross Quarter Class. I always called them the Macross Elysion Class in my head canon. Or for my own fanfiction I had them called the Macross Pathfinder Class. 

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Well, I would take Master File with a grain of salt, given what Seto Kaiba has told us of the info they include.

[deathzealot]

  On 10/28/2021 at 7:18 PM, pengbuzz said:

Well, I would take Master File with a grain of salt, given what Seto Kaiba has told us of the info they include.

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True, that. Still I would love to find out the class names for some of the ships we see in both Frontier and into Delta. Like the Stealth Cruiser or the Windermere Ships in Delta. Though, from what I understand a non-canonical source of some sort had the Stealth Cruiser as the Osaka Class if I remember correctly.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/28/2021 at 6:12 PM, NightmarePlus said:

Random question, but does the VF-31 Master File shed light on information regarding the class of Macross type ships Elysion and her sister ships belong to?

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Very little.  It also mentions the carriers that make up the arms are Enterprise-class, though that's no more official than anything else in those books.

 

  On 10/28/2021 at 7:18 PM, pengbuzz said:

Well, I would take Master File with a grain of salt, given what Seto Kaiba has told us of the info they include.

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They do self-disclaim as not official setting material, so everything in 'em needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

  On 10/28/2021 at 9:09 PM, deathzealot said:

True, that. Still I would love to find out the class names for some of the ships we see in both Frontier and into Delta. Like the Stealth Cruiser or the Windermere Ships in Delta. Though, from what I understand a non-canonical source of some sort had the Stealth Cruiser as the Osaka Class if I remember correctly.

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Yeah, that was a fan publication... circle FANKY's Battleships of the Galaxy.

[sketchley]

  On 10/29/2021 at 12:05 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

They do self-disclaim as not official setting material, so everything in 'em needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

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This.

At best, they are a fun peak 'under the hood' to see how Macross tech works.

But at the end of the day, they are fan produced content that is not official in any way, shape or form.

[pengbuzz]

  On 10/29/2021 at 12:05 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

They do self-disclaim as not official setting material, so everything in 'em needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

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At the rate they're going, more like a block of salt and a belt sander...

  

  On 10/29/2021 at 2:25 AM, sketchley said:

This.

At best, they are a fun peak 'under the hood' to see how Macross tech works.

But at the end of the day, they are fan produced content that is not official in any way, shape or form.

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Agreed: I still find it weird that their depiction of the VF-1's Battroid mode shows the entire nose landing gear having to drop outside the nose just so the pilot's seat can rotate into upright position. I have all sorts of issues with that one...

Edited October 29, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 10/29/2021 at 3:01 AM, pengbuzz said:

At the rate they're going, more like a block of salt and a belt sander...

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Every now and then they decide they really like something from those books and incorporate it into the official setting.

The Macross Chronicle sheets for the QF-3000 Ghost, SF-3A Lancer II, and some details for the ARMD-class are taken almost whole cloth from the original Macross tech manual book Sky Angels.