Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[AN/ALQ128]

Reading about the RVF-25's providing AEW and the carrier spoofing to cover for the regular VF-25s was neat, wish we got to see some of that more tactical coordination in Delta. Its been years since I watched Delta, but I dont really remember Chuck doing much.

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Very nearly, yeah.  The reason that trying to communicate with a main fleet is so dangerous is that its leaders absolutely can feel fear, and that fear makes them more dangerous. 

Boddole Zer's order to destroy Earth was motivated by his fear of the alien influence causing his soldiers to disobey orders and lose their will to fight.  In Macross 7, we get to learn how well-founded this fear was when we learn about how the Protodeviln used mind control to subvert Zentradi and Protoculture to their cause.  Culture shock tactics can work on Zentradi if you get good saturation, but if you don't you stand a chance of accidentally invoking their biggest fear.

 

 

There were a few occasions where the Minmay Attack failed in the Macross II timeline.

In 2036, the Zentradi Neld main fleet proved resistant to the Minmay Attack because they'd been "inoculated' against it via limited exposure to Earth's culture courtesy of Quamzin and other Zentradi who'd lived among humans briefly before fleeing back into space to rejoin their forces.

In 2037, the Zentradi Burado main fleet appeared immune to the Minmay Attack... but only because they had acquired a sophisticated Protoculture communications system which made it impossible for the UN Forces to turn their own communications network against them with broadcasts of Minmay Attack materials.  Once that obstacle was removed, that fleet proved as susceptible to the Minmay Attack as any other.  (In a rare moment, the use of the Minmay Attack and other evidence convinced the Meltrandi fleet that'd been hot on the Burado fleet's heels to conclude that Earth was a Protoculture enclave and withdraw from the system per their ancient standing order to not interfere with the worlds of the Protoculture.

In 2092, the Mardook proved to be actually immune to the Minmay Attack because their culture already had concepts like "love" and "music".

 

 

You'd have to be very careful how you did that.  If you recall, the standard approach the Zentradi take when they believe part of their forces are compromised is (un)friendly fire.

 

 

That is an excellent question... we have no idea.

Between the original series and DYRL?, we get a vague picture that the front lines of the war between the Zentradi and Supervision Army are still actively at war with each other but the battle lines are not visible to humanity or the audience.

In "Boobytrap", in Vrlitwhai and Exsedol's very first scene it's mentioned that "they" (the Supervision Army) should have been withdrawing from the unspecified region of space that Earth occupies in whatever Zentradi astrocartography system is in play "eight terms" ago.  The Zentradi glossary provided by the show's creators indicates that a term is a Zentradi unit of time equal to approximately five Earth years.  

So... somewhere around 1969, the Supervision Army started retreating from the general stellar neighborhood around the Sol system in the face of a Zentradi advance.  How far did they fall back?  We don't know.  There hasn't been any word of anyone running into them.  On the other hand, it's possible humanity HAS run into them and just didn't recognize them for what they were since the Supervision Army was made up in no small part of captured Zentradi assets.

 

In Do You Remember Love?, Earth had been well away from the front lines for quite a long time once the Protoculture established their colony there and were forced to abandon it once the warring Zentradi and Meltrandi started to move into that region of space thousands of years ago.

 

 

Sort of?  The Macross 7 chronology would probably lend some support to the idea since it established that the Supervision Army suffered a pretty significant defeat when the Anima Spiritia were able to defeat, capture, and seal the Protodeviln.  

I'm not sure throwing away functional ships after booby-trapping them smacks of desperation or someone with enough production capacity to really not care if they sacrifice a few ships to catch the Zentradi off guard.  Both sides are presumably benefitting from the use of automated factory satellites and cloning facilities to mass produce their soldiers and all their war materiel. 

Thanks for the clarification and added info Seto! I was unsure about how they would react, but assuming how they handle anything threatening, the "lack of clean trousers" situation would definitely apply.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Reading about the RVF-25's providing AEW and the carrier spoofing to cover for the regular VF-25s was neat, wish we got to see some of that more tactical coordination in Delta. Its been years since I watched Delta, but I dont really remember Chuck doing much.

 

Frontier would probably have been a better series for them to show off VFs with that kind of networked battle management capability.  Not only were the forces involved larger, SMS was a lot more professional and a lot more willing to cooperate with the local New UN Forces.

Chuck... definitely didn't do much in the Delta.  A lot of his role seemed to be analogous to Deanna Troi's in Star Trek: the Next Generation.  Those advanced sensors of his were used mainly to state the obvious like that the New UN Forces attacking them had been taken over by Var syndrome.

 

On a quasi-related note, one detail that's bothered me for a while about Macross Delta is how small the fighter complement of the Macross Elysion is relative to its size.  The Macross Elysion is more than twice the size of the Macross Quarter, and she's a fair bit larger than the standard New UN Spacy Guantanamo-class and Uraga-class space carriers, but carries a fraction of the number of mecha.  The Guantanamo-class carries up to 50 fighters, the Uraga-class up to 75, and the Macross Quarter-class up to 80.  The Elysion's a fair bit bigger in each case, but between the Aether and Hemera it seems to only be carrying 23 aircraft in total.  Just the four 5-plane flights of VF-31s (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta), two training-use VF-1EX's, and the shuttle Walkure uses.  No other fighters like the VF-171EX's that the Pipure branch had.  No unmanned fighters.  Nothing else.

It strikes me as especially weird since the Macross Elysion is supposed to be the sector command ship for Xaos forces in the Brisingr cluster.  Their biggest stick is a Macross-type that seems to be on the old side and just twenty fighters?  You'd expect a ship that's halfway between a Macross Quarter and full first-gen Macross would be carrying a hundred or so VFs.  The Macross had 300+ when all was said and done, and the movie version had over 500.

 

3 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks for the clarification and added info Seto! I was unsure about how they would react, but assuming how they handle anything threatening, the "lack of clean trousers" situation would definitely apply.

Yeah, the Zentradi are definitely not to be trifled with.

[deathzealot]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

On a quasi-related note, one detail that's bothered me for a while about Macross Delta is how small the fighter complement of the Macross Elysion is relative to its size.  The Macross Elysion is more than twice the size of the Macross Quarter, and she's a fair bit larger than the standard New UN Spacy Guantanamo-class and Uraga-class space carriers, but carries a fraction of the number of mecha.  The Guantanamo-class carries up to 50 fighters, the Uraga-class up to 75, and the Macross Quarter-class up to 80.  The Elysion's a fair bit bigger in each case, but between the Aether and Hemera it seems to only be carrying 23 aircraft in total.  Just the four 5-plane flights of VF-31s (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta), two training-use VF-1EX's, and the shuttle Walkure uses.  No other fighters like the VF-171EX's that the Pipure branch had.  No unmanned fighters.  Nothing else.

It strikes me as especially weird since the Macross Elysion is supposed to be the sector command ship for Xaos forces in the Brisingr cluster.  Their biggest stick is a Macross-type that seems to be on the old side and just twenty fighters?  You'd expect a ship that's halfway between a Macross Quarter and full first-gen Macross would be carrying a hundred or so VFs.  The Macross had 300+ when all was said and done, and the movie version had over 500.

Yeah. I always wondered the same. Which is why in my head canon Alpha, Bravo, and Gamma are all full squadrons instead of just flights. There was also a fourth "grunt" unit which was only mentioned once right before Delta and Walkure started the operation to get to Windermere IV. Theta I believe. Which combined with Gamma kept the Alfheim Garrison busy while Delta and Walkure set up for the operation to get into Windermere IV via portal. I think Alpha and Bravo stayed with the Elysion when it helped out the distraction force at Randall since we see one Karios being saved by a regular Nightmare Plus before being engaged by Keith's Unit. Also, to further your note I do not think the Elysion is seen deploying any Cheyenne IIs at all. In the movie I remember some are seen on the hull of the Elysion and its remaining sister ship, but in the series I do not remember any Destroids at all outside of the regular NUNS units.

[Seto Kaiba]

31 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Yeah. I always wondered the same. Which is why in my head canon Alpha, Bravo, and Gamma are all full squadrons instead of just flights.

One of the other odd touches in Delta that definitely feels like an inconsistency is that Xaos uses Air Force organizational terms for its Valkyrie units even though the protagonists are a carrier-based force.  Available material lists their unit affiliation as Xaos Ragna 3rd Fighter Wing.  Oddly no mention of squadron, which is normally the default operating unit.  It seems likely they've pulled a SMS and are organized purely by Flight in the field.

 

31 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

There was also a fourth "grunt" unit which was only mentioned once right before Delta and Walkure started the operation to get to Windermere IV. Theta I believe. Which combined with Gamma kept the Alfheim Garrison busy while Delta and Walkure set up for the operation to get into Windermere IV via portal. I think Alpha and Bravo stayed with the Elysion when it helped out the distraction force at Randall since we see one Karios being saved by a regular Nightmare Plus before being engaged by Keith's Unit. Also, to further your note I do not think the Elysion is seen deploying any Cheyenne IIs at all. In the movie I remember some are seen on the hull of the Elysion and its remaining sister ship, but in the series I do not remember any Destroids at all outside of the regular NUNS units.

So, on that note... I went back to episode 22 to investigate.  

Whoever's speaking over the PA in the hangar mentions loading Alpha and Delta Flights onto the Aether, so presumably Beta and Gamma Flights remained aboard the Hemera.  They also, interestingly, mention transferring Destroids to the Hemera.  I don't believe we ever see any aboard ship, though.  

They do mention a Theta Flight, though it's not clear if that unit is stationed aboard the Elysion or came in on one of the other ships.  Assuming they're lettering their flights without any skips, that implies the 3rd Fighter Wing is at least twice the size of the forces directly seen/mentioned aboard the Elysion, since Theta is the 8th letter of the Greek alphabet after Epsilon, Zeta, and Eta.  At least in the US, a Fighter Wing normally has two squadrons.  Eight five-aircraft Flights would be enough for two squadrons, which are usually 12-24 planes.

If we assume Xaos is numbering their Fighter Wings and Fighter Squadrons sequentially - which is admittedly just a wild guess with nothing particular to go on aside from the basic assumption of organizational laziness - then it's at least mildly likely that Xaos's 3rd Fighter Wing consists of the Xaos's 5th and 6th Tactical Fighter Squadrons, with Delta Flight being the last unit in 5th Squadron.

[pengbuzz]

27 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One of the other odd touches in Delta that definitely feels like an inconsistency is that Xaos uses Air Force organizational terms for its Valkyrie units even though the protagonists are a carrier-based force.  Available material lists their unit affiliation as Xaos Ragna 3rd Fighter Wing.  Oddly no mention of squadron, which is normally the default operating unit.  It seems likely they've pulled a SMS and are organized purely by Flight in the field.

 

So, on that note... I went back to episode 22 to investigate.  

Whoever's speaking over the PA in the hangar mentions loading Alpha and Delta Flights onto the Aether, so presumably Beta and Gamma Flights remained aboard the Hemera.  They also, interestingly, mention transferring Destroids to the Hemera.  I don't believe we ever see any aboard ship, though.  

They do mention a Theta Flight, though it's not clear if that unit is stationed aboard the Elysion or came in on one of the other ships.  Assuming they're lettering their flights without any skips, that implies the 3rd Fighter Wing is at least twice the size of the forces directly seen/mentioned aboard the Elysion, since Theta is the 8th letter of the Greek alphabet after Epsilon, Zeta, and Eta.  At least in the US, a Fighter Wing normally has two squadrons.  Eight five-aircraft Flights would be enough for two squadrons, which are usually 12-24 planes.

If we assume Xaos is numbering their Fighter Wings and Fighter Squadrons sequentially - which is admittedly just a wild guess with nothing particular to go on aside from the basic assumption of organizational laziness - then it's at least mildly likely that Xaos's 3rd Fighter Wing consists of the Xaos's 5th and 6th Tactical Fighter Squadrons, with Delta Flight being the last unit in 5th Squadron.

So...if the organizational terms denote who would be called up first as opposed to last: Delta Flight is the suckiest flight in a sucky PMC full of sucky flights. Is that correct?

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

So...if the organizational terms denote who would be called up first as opposed to last: Delta Flight is the suckiest flight in a sucky PMC full of sucky flights. Is that correct?

Nah... assuming the 3rd Fighter Wing operates four flights per squadron, that would imply only that Arad is organizationally the least senior flight leader in the squadron.

Of course, that may owe less (or nothing) to his rank than it does to his flight operating in a non-standard capacity as a flight demonstration team and a bodyguard detail for Tactical Sound Unit Walkure.

[Seto Kaiba]

Was doing a little bit of poking around in various Master File books and Macross Chronicle sheets earlier, and I think I've sorted out a few nagging questions I had.

Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet 01E oh-so-casually mentions how the Earth UN Forces acquired energy conversion armor technology.  They got it from battle pods left aboard Alien Star Ship 1.  That kind of explains the nagging question of how they were able to benchmark the performance of their own energy conversion armor technology as discussed in several other articles.

Interestingly, the same sheet also mentions the VF-0's armor as a mixture of titanium and carbon-based composite materials incorporating/applying nanotechnology.  We did already know that there were advanced "hypercarbon" composite materials in play, so that's not really a surprise per se.

It also mentions, in passing, that the VF-25 etc. are utilizing 2nd Generation energy conversion armor systems.

This is where it gets good...

 

Macross Frontier introduced two new types of Energy Conversion Armor technology, neither of which was really explained properly.  The first one to get mentioned is the Advanced Energy Conversion Armor used in the VF-25's Armored Pack and in SMS's heavily modified VB-6 Koenig Monster.  The other, which wasn't really name-dropped until the materials made for Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye, is Energy Conversion Armor II.  There was also the mostly-unqualified statement about the greater generator output of the new Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines providing enough surplus to run the energy conversion armor at low power around key areas like the engines and the cockpit while operating in Fighter mode.

Since Advanced Energy Conversion Armor was only used for special purposes and was acknowledged to be extremely expensive stuff, that Energy Conversion Armor II was only really name-dropped extensively in the VF-27's Super Pack from the second movie made it seem like it was similarly expensive/rare hardware and that the VF-25, VF-27, etc. all were using the same old energy conversion armor as previous generations but with more power behind it.

That's looking like it was an incorrect assumption.

Both Macross Chronicle and Master File point to the aforementioned 2nd Generation energy conversion armor that's the standard for the VF-25 and other fighters of its generation being Energy Conversion Armor II.  The more expensive Advanced Energy Conversion Armor is used on the forearm anti-projectile shield to improve its defensive ability.  There were some interesting notes related to that in Master File about Energy Conversion Armor II's greater strength being a combination of a more resilient armor material, the system being more energy efficient, and just plain having more energy to throw at it.  It's also interesting to note that apparently both the light energy conversion armor protection around the cockpit and engines in fighter mode and the Armored Pack's any-mode use of energy conversion armor are running off capacitor power rather than directly off the generators, meaning their runtime is limited rather than indefinite as it would be in other modes.

Master File had a very useful note in the margins that offers what, as far as I know, is the only attempt to explain how energy conversion armor actually works.  They stuck with the explanation in Chronicle that it's a layered, laminated armor material.  The explanation for how its durability improves when it's electromagnetically charged is that there are layers made of a special alloy that increases its molecular bonding when subjected to specific electromagnetic frequencies.  Bulletproof glass, for instance, is layers of either clear acrylics or polycarbonates sandwiched with a flexible plastic.  The hard plex layers absorbs the shock and the flexible layers beneath help spread the shock across a larger area to minimize the penetration of the projectile.  Energy conversion armor is basically a bulletproof glass-like material where layers of that special alloy that increases its hardness when subjected to electromagnetic pulses are bonded to more flexible composite armors to achieve the same effect.  (Apparently this allows it to be applied to the canopies of Variable Fighters as well...)

[darkranger12]

Saw this scan on Macross Central Facebook page.  Looks like a new macross crossed with a bird human and speaker pods. Are the feathers ships? I THINK I can make out either the aether class ship but I dunno could be the big bad from Epsilon.

[pengbuzz]

How it could keep wings the length of a Macross class fortress up like that without snapping the shoulders clean off is ridiculous.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

Saw this scan on Macross Central Facebook page.  Looks like a new macross crossed with a bird human and speaker pods. Are the feathers ships? I THINK I can make out either the aether class ship but I dunno could be the big bad from Epsilon.

Useless bloody Facebook page, that one... between the rampant misinformation and the useless mods pursuing their personal vendettas they're as bad as the Robotech fans when it comes to spreading misinformation.

That's definitely a current-gen Battle-class under all that garbage.  Looks like Satelight's reusing the Battle Frontier CG model with some cosmetic alterations.

I doubt it has anything to do with the Epsilon Foundation.  The promo materials pitched this as a new antagonist and, if we're being honest, the Epsilon Foundation aren't at all the type to have aspirations of galactic domination.  Yeah, they're evil... but they're corporate evil.  They're greedy and amoral war profiteers who are only too happy to sell weapons to both sides and relief supplies to everyone caught in the middle, but actually going out and busting heads themselves is way WAY outside their comfort zone.

Whoever this new antagonist is, they have enough clout to somehow obtain one of the largest New UN Forces capital ships and extensively modify it.  That's somehow who has a level of power rivaling or exceeding an emigrant government head of state.  Given that this ship is apparently associated with the new "evil" idol group Yami-Q-Ray and this new VF we've seen, that's someone who's also spent a lot of time and resources researching how to weaponize fold songs.  There's exactly one person in the scenario who has the wealth of a megacorporation, the resources and connections to influence the New UN Government and New UN Forces, and is directly connected to efforts to weaponize fold songs and researching their weapons potential: Lady M.

If it's not her, then we're in "giant space flea from nowhere" or "suspiciously similar substitute" territory for explaining this new antagonist.

 

4 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

How it could keep wings the length of a Macross class fortress up like that without snapping the shoulders clean off is ridiculous.

You'd need some kind of gravity and inertia control system to keep the structural stresses manageable... like of gravity and inertia control system a ship like that is packed to the rafters with already.

[Aranoht]

51 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

How it could keep wings the length of a Macross class fortress up like that without snapping the shoulders clean off is ridiculous.

Anti gravity motors!

[JB0]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

How it could keep wings the length of a Macross class fortress up like that without snapping the shoulders clean off is ridiculous.

I mean, it is no sillier than punching someone with an aircraft carrier on a jury-rigged mount.

[Seto Kaiba]

19 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I mean, it is no sillier than punching someone with an aircraft carrier on a jury-rigged mount.

Hey now, the mounting wasn't jury-rigged... it just wasn't made for those exact ships.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You'd need some kind of gravity and inertia control system to keep the structural stresses manageable... like of gravity and inertia control system a ship like that is packed to the rafters with already.

I wonder if the original Macross had that for it's carriers?

2 hours ago, JB0 said:

I mean, it is no sillier than punching someone with an aircraft carrier on a jury-rigged mount.

Hey now! Punching someone in the face with an aircraft carrier is the staple of all anime! 😛

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if the original Macross had that for it's carriers?

It's a safe bet... the Daedalus and Prometheus were definitely hooked up to the Macross's gravity control systems.  

Macross Chronicle notes that it was an artificial gravity field thrown up over the Prometheus's deck that allowed them to do normal CATOBAR operations while in space.

[seti88]

Are the neon lines energy flow or something like that? even down to the fingers?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, seti88 said:

Are the neon lines energy flow or something like that? even down to the fingers?

It could be, I guess.  Or any of a host of other things.

It's been mentioned a few times that Valkyries do provide power (and probably data bus connections) to their gunpod(s) through connectors in the hand.  Even though I don't think it's been explicitly reiterated in the case of the 5th Generation VFs, I suspect it's a very safe bet it's still the case since it IS stated that beam gunpods are drawing their power from the VF's engines.

That said, it could also be something else entirely.  Maybe some kind of fold wave receiver since it's apparently working in tandem with Hot Topic-brand Walkure.  Could be some kind of active stealth system other than the usual anti-radar mechanism like one intended to defeat fold wave radar or an optical camouflage system meant to scramble target locks like the Windermereans were using early in Macross Delta.  Could be a purely aesthetic touch too.  Maybe the developer, or end user, is just really REALLY in love with TRON lines.  Add a bit of purple in there and I'd suggest they were going for a vaporwave theme.

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It could be, I guess.  Or any of a host of other things.

It's been mentioned a few times that Valkyries do provide power (and probably data bus connections) to their gunpod(s) through connectors in the hand.  Even though I don't think it's been explicitly reiterated in the case of the 5th Generation VFs, I suspect it's a very safe bet it's still the case since it IS stated that beam gunpods are drawing their power from the VF's engines.

That said, it could also be something else entirely.  Maybe some kind of fold wave receiver since it's apparently working in tandem with Hot Topic-brand Walkure.  Could be some kind of active stealth system other than the usual anti-radar mechanism like one intended to defeat fold wave radar or an optical camouflage system meant to scramble target locks like the Windermereans were using early in Macross Delta.  Could be a purely aesthetic touch too.  Maybe the developer, or end user, is just really REALLY in love with TRON lines.  Add a bit of purple in there and I'd suggest they were going for a vaporwave theme.

Could it possibly be a form of psychological warfare? Something to disorient and mentally mess with their enemy?

[darkranger12]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Could it possibly be a form of psychological warfare? Something to disorient and mentally mess with their enemy?

Or possibly help with that energy shielding that we saw.  A fully shielded valk is interesting to me. 

[Bolt]

We're going to find out soon enough!

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Could it possibly be a form of psychological warfare? Something to disorient and mentally mess with their enemy?

Can't see how it could... 

Normally, if you want to make it harder for an enemy to discern your movements by eye you use either regular camouflage (in the hopes of going unseen) or dazzle camouflage (to trick the eye regarding what direction you're moving).  If it were about disorienting the enemy, I'd expect to see a dazzle camouflage paintjob like the YF-27-5's:

 

All in all, I can't really imagine any psychological warfare potential in the new enemy VF's tacky ground effects lightning... unless someone was really badly traumatized during a showing of TRON.

 

 

3 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

Or possibly help with that energy shielding that we saw.  A fully shielded valk is interesting to me. 

Unlikely, IMO.  "Energy shields" the way most science fiction or science fantasy titles conceptualize them don't exist in the Macross universe.  The closest equivalent in Macross - the barrier technology developed during the First Space War - works on very different principles from the shields of most other sci-fi franchises.  Rather than a "force field" made up of high-intensity electromagnetic fields or layers of exotic particles, Macross's barrier technology produces a localized discontinuity in the fabric of space time.  A dimensional fault, to use the show's favored term for it.  It's warping space-time in a very specific area relative to the barrier system such that matter and energy can't traverse it.  What you end up with is essentially a movable immovable object that can be freely shaped and deflect physical objects just as readily as lasers, particle beams, plasma, and radiation.  

The upside is that it's a highly versatile defensive mechanism with far better defensive ability than even energy conversion armor can offer.  The downside is that tying space-time in knots requires a LOT of power and, more importantly, it's impermeable in both directions.

That last bit is why pinpoint barriers are the norm rather than omnidirectional ones... the enemy can't shoot you through it, but you can't shoot the enemy through it either.  A VF with omnidirectional barrier coverage would be well-defended but utterly incapable of returning fire.

[pengbuzz]

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All in all, I can't really imagine any psychological warfare potential in the new enemy VF's tacky ground effects lightning... unless someone was really badly traumatized during a showing of TRON..

ROFL!!!!!

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

So, from what little I was able to glean from that five minute roadshow teaser, it looks like the Sv-303 is equipped fairly similarly to the Sv-262.  

Especially the presence of what seems to be a variant of the 262's Fold Reheat system.

 

Definitely gonna want an explanation for how/why the enemy ship in the film appears to be the Battle Galaxy... given that Macross Frontier materials indicate she was destroyed over the Vajra home planet in the TV version and destroyed in the Vajra attack on the Galaxy fleet in the movie version.  

Really hoping the other unconfirmed spoilers about the film are false though.  

[Seto Kaiba]

So... since we're in a bit of a Delta frenzy today anyway with last night's theatrical debut of Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!, I decided to go and tackle a few of the questionable areas in the Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried to satisfy my curiosity.

The first one is a remark in the VF-31 development history section that mentions an aircraft we've never seen or heard before: the YF-30B Chronos.

In an interesting contrast to Macross 30's YF-29B Perceval, the YF-30B is a reduced-capability version of the YF-30 instead of an enhancement.  The YF-30B removed the FF-3001/FC2 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and the proprietary and poorly-understood Fold Dimensional Resonance System.  Several units were produced for testing via SMS or other affiliated security services and performed well enough that Shinsei pinned its hopes on the YF-30B as a contender for an inexpensive, but highly versatile, mass produced main Variable Fighter for emigrant governments.  (Apparently being able to put the arms outside the engine nacelles instead of between them was a real watershed moment for durability in Battroid mode.)

Perhaps my happiest find is an explanation for the inexplicable color-changing paint used on the Siegfrieds and Draken IIIs.

Where the VF-25 (and VF-171EX) used an ablative anti-beam coating that doubled as radar-absorbent material for passive stealthiness, the VF-31 is described as using a separate anti-beam coating that comes in an adhesive sheet form that's bonded to the airframe.  The sheeting is a smart material that can also function as a display surface for still images and also video, allowing it to function as a kind of optical camouflage.

Apparently the reason both the VF-31 and Sv-262 adopted medium-bore railguns in place of beam machine guns as their primary fighter-mode gun is in response to the increasing efficacy of ablative anti-beam coatings, which are able to dampen 30-40% of a typical beam machine gun's fire.

No useful info on the function of the LU-18A beam gunpod, but there is oddly a mention of a conventional rotary cannon option not depicted which is considered useful for cases involving things like combat with Zentradi.

[aurance]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... since we're in a bit of a Delta frenzy today anyway with last night's theatrical debut of Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!, I decided to go and tackle a few of the questionable areas in the Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried to satisfy my curiosity.

The first one is a remark in the VF-31 development history section that mentions an aircraft we've never seen or heard before: the YF-30B Chronos.

In an interesting contrast to Macross 30's YF-29B Perceval, the YF-30B is a reduced-capability version of the YF-30 instead of an enhancement.  The YF-30B removed the FF-3001/FC2 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and the proprietary and poorly-understood Fold Dimensional Resonance System.  Several units were produced for testing via SMS or other affiliated security services and performed well enough that Shinsei pinned its hopes on the YF-30B as a contender for an inexpensive, but highly versatile, mass produced main Variable Fighter for emigrant governments.  (Apparently being able to put the arms outside the engine nacelles instead of between them was a real watershed moment for durability in Battroid mode.)

Perhaps my happiest find is an explanation for the inexplicable color-changing paint used on the Siegfrieds and Draken IIIs.

Where the VF-25 (and VF-171EX) used an ablative anti-beam coating that doubled as radar-absorbent material for passive stealthiness, the VF-31 is described as using a separate anti-beam coating that comes in an adhesive sheet form that's bonded to the airframe.  The sheeting is a smart material that can also function as a display surface for still images and also video, allowing it to function as a kind of optical camouflage.

Apparently the reason both the VF-31 and Sv-262 adopted medium-bore railguns in place of beam machine guns as their primary fighter-mode gun is in response to the increasing efficacy of ablative anti-beam coatings, which are able to dampen 30-40% of a typical beam machine gun's fire.

No useful info on the function of the LU-18A beam gunpod, but there is oddly a mention of a conventional rotary cannon option not depicted which is considered useful for cases involving things like combat with Zentradi.

Not gonna talk about the plot but these bits of mech info are cool. I like the railgun development.

[aurance]

You mentioned in another thread the YF-24 is still not in production by Delta time because it's too expensive? So is it a failure as far as it becoming the next mass produced NUNS fighter? Is the "main" NUNS fighter still VF-171? If the Macross Mecha Manual specs are to go buy, the VF-171 has less performance than pretty much every custom emigrant fleet fighter we've seen so far. I thought the Feds were trying to work on a clear performance advantage over the emigrant fleets, on the median.

[Bolt]

I believe the VF-24 is in heavy use.  For Earth..

[snakerbot]

3 hours ago, aurance said:

You mentioned in another thread the YF-24 is still not in production by Delta time because it's too expensive? So is it a failure as far as it becoming the next mass produced NUNS fighter? Is the "main" NUNS fighter still VF-171? If the Macross Mecha Manual specs are to go buy, the VF-171 has less performance than pretty much every custom emigrant fleet fighter we've seen so far. I thought the Feds were trying to work on a clear performance advantage over the emigrant fleets, on the median.

The YF-24 was approved by the Federal NUNS (i.e. Earth) for production in 2057. The specs were then partially redacted and transmitted to the colonies for them to do with them what they will. Frontier developed it into the YF- and VF-25 and the YF-29. Galaxy developed it into the VF-27. Presumably some fleets just produced it locally without changes. The "main NUNS fighter" of Earth is the VF-24, but the local NUNS branches at each colony fleet are doing their own thing. You may be thinking of the YF-29, which absolutely is too expensive to produce.

[charles88]

Its seems that VF-31 AX has become contender for title strongest VF for reason of 

 

Spoiler

After their VF gets destroyed by Sv-303, Max managed to rescue Xaos and move to their hideout, turn out that their hideout has extremely rich with Fold Quartz,. With that Makina decided to use a LOT of Fold Quartz to modified the hell out of VF-31 to match Sv-303 capability. It shows that it matches YF-29 capability during training with Max

 

[no3Ljm]

Hey @Seto Kaiba, from @Gerli's post in the Zettai Live thread. SV-303 is called 'Vivasvat'? Is that correct based on the katakana?

'Vivasvat' from Hinduism:

Quote

Vivasvat, also known as Vivasvant, is also one such of these deities. His wife is Saranyu, daughter of Tvashtar. His sons include the Ashvins, Yama, and Manu. Through Manu, Vivasvat is considered an ancestor of humanity. Vivasvat is affiliated with Agni and Matarishvan, with Agni being stated to have been first revealed to those two. Vivasvat is also variously related to Indra, Soma, and Varuna. Vivasvant is also used as an adjective of Agni and Ushas to mean "brilliant". Already by the time of his earliest appearance (the Rigveda), Vivasvat had declined in importance. He was likely a solar deity, but scholars debate his specific role as one. In the Rigveda, Indra drinks Soma alongside Manu Vivasvat and Trita. In post-Vedic literature, Vivasvat further declines in importance, and is merely another name for the sun. He is cognate to the Avestan Vivanhvant, who is the father of Yima (cognate to Yama) and Manu.

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by no3Ljm

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, aurance said:

Not gonna talk about the plot but these bits of mech info are cool. I like the railgun development.

Unfortunately, it failed to answer my main question with respect to the railguns used by the VF-31 and Sv-262.

Specifically: are the railguns "true" railguns that use purely electromagnetic force to launch projectiles or are these like the VF-25's "railgun" where there's an electromagnetic assist to a chemically-propelled conventional bullet.

 

9 hours ago, aurance said:

You mentioned in another thread the YF-24 is still not in production by Delta time because it's too expensive? So is it a failure as far as it becoming the next mass produced NUNS fighter? Is the "main" NUNS fighter still VF-171? If the Macross Mecha Manual specs are to go buy, the VF-171 has less performance than pretty much every custom emigrant fleet fighter we've seen so far. I thought the Feds were trying to work on a clear performance advantage over the emigrant fleets, on the median.

The YF-29, not the YF-24.

It's not entirely clear what the Macross Frontier Fleet Arsenal and local branches of Shinsei Industry and Legodt & Angeloni Industries had in mind for future applications when the YF-29 Durandal's development kicked off.  Maybe it was originally intended to be a Special Forces fighter like the VF-19EF Caliburn or VF-22S Sturmvogel II.  Either way, the frankly impractical amount of ultra-high purity fold quartz needed to manufacture the all-important Fold Wave System that made the YF-29's incredible performance possible also left the fighter impossible to mass produce due to its scarcity.

There are several interesting notes in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried about the Fold Wave System.

It's indicated that the originator of the theory behind the Fold Wave System was none other than Lt. Col. Gadget M. Chiba of the Macross 7 fleet.  It was supposedly an outgrowth of his Sound Energy hypothesis that joined it up to unified fold theory involving using dimensionally-resonant crystals (fold quartz) to amplify fold waves.

Some guidance is also offered with respect to the claim made in the extra features of the Macross Delta blu-rays that asserts the VF-31 Custom "Siegfried" is considered to be a Generation 5.5 Variable Fighter.  Master File's assertion is that the YF-29 and its completed Fold Wave System constitute a 6th Generation VF.  The 5th Generation VF-31 Kairos's retrofits to include that system in the Siegfried type supposedly made it Gen 5.5.  

Also of interest is a note that the VF-31 Custom's Fold Wave System is said to be of a somewhat different design than the YF-29's.  It's said that the design of the Siegfried's Fold Wave System requires less of the ultra-high purity fold quartz needed to make a fold wave system, theoretically without sacrificing the system's performance but at the cost of it being less practical because the system cannot activate and maintain operation without an external fold wave oscillator (aka a suitably powerful biological fold wave source).  It would appear that this is the reason the VF-31 Custom Siegfried type uses its fold wave system so sparingly in the series.  The YF-29 is said to be able to "brute force" activate it without an external fold wave source.

 

9 hours ago, Bolt said:

I believe the VF-24 is in heavy use.  For Earth..

It's Earth's 5th Generation Main Variable Fighter, their replacement for the VF-171 Nightmare Plus.

 

5 hours ago, snakerbot said:

The YF-24 was approved by the Federal NUNS (i.e. Earth) for production in 2057. The specs were then partially redacted and transmitted to the colonies for them to do with them what they will. Frontier developed it into the YF- and VF-25 and the YF-29. Galaxy developed it into the VF-27.

Your summation is quite correct.  I just want to add one tiny note to that last sentence.

Macross Galaxy began development of the YF-27 based on the YF-24 spec, but completed the project using development data from Frontier's YF-29 leaked to them by LAI.

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Its seems that VF-31 AX has become contender for title strongest VF for reason of 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

After their VF gets destroyed by Sv-303, Max managed to rescue Xaos and move to their hideout, turn out that their hideout has extremely rich with Fold Quartz,. With that Makina decided to use a LOT of Fold Quartz to modified the hell out of VF-31 to match Sv-303 capability. It shows that it matches YF-29 capability during training with Max

 

Unlikely, IMO... but I'm waiting to see actual specs rather than vague claims in potentally unreliable spoilers.

Back in the Macross Delta TV series, it was noted on several occasions that the modifications Xaos made to the trial production VF-31's in Delta Flight's care were already pushing the limits of the airframe's durability.  Expert handling was able to mitigate that issue, but Hayate's rougher style resulted in his VF-31 Custom Siegfried sustaining damage just by how he was flying it.  Though there is some evident frame reinforcement on the Kairos Plus around the wings, I doubt that the stock VF-31 airframe could actually reach the YF-29 performance-wise without suffering a fair amount of damage from stresses beyond the design limit.

There's also been a fair amount said about differences in Fold Wave System design that make the YF-29 superior as well, and the claim made in the Macross Delta series material that the YF-29 is a generation ahead of the Siegfried series and others.

 

3 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

Hey @Seto Kaiba, from @Gerli's post in the Zettai Live thread. SV-303 is called 'Vivasvat'? Is that correct based on the katakana?

'Vivasvat' from Hinduism:

 

ヴィヴァスヴァト would be read Vi-Va-Su-Va-To (ヴィ - ヴァ - ス - ヴァ - ト), so Vivasvat should be the correct transliteration, I'd assume.

My grasp of Hindu mythology is unfortunately quite sparse.  This is, I think, the fourth Hindu mythology reference in Macross's technical setting.  The first was ANGIRAS, the name of the original generation of airframe control AIs used in VFs.  Then there was the Vajra, Surya Aerospace (makers of the VF-31), and now Vivasvat.

Spoiler

The Sv-303 Vivasvat is manufactured by the Epsilon Foundation subsidiary Dian Cecht, who also manufacture the Sv-262 Draken III for Windermere IV's Aerial Knights.  Unmanned and remotely controlled by the DE-124 SIREN DELTA SYSTEM, a "Quantum AI" that seems to just by Sharon Apple 2.0.  The TRON lines are a new kind of fold wave-based energy conversion armor, and there's a fourth mode meant for high mobility space dogfighting.

Feels like the Macross II references are coming to a head... the Metal Siren in that OVA also had a fourth mode that deployed all of its engines for high-mobility space dogfighting.

We already had the Star Singer who is basically just an Emulator, and Var syndrome which works almost exactly like the Song of Death from Macross II.

 

My burning question is where the hell the Battle Astraea came from... because, as others have noted, that's clearly a Battle-class under all that garbage and it appears to be what remains of the Battle Galaxy.

[aurance]

49 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Unfortunately, it failed to answer my main question with respect to the railguns used by the VF-31 and Sv-262.

Specifically: are the railguns "true" railguns that use purely electromagnetic force to launch projectiles or are these like the VF-25's "railgun" where there's an electromagnetic assist to a chemically-propelled conventional bullet.

 

The YF-29, not the YF-24.

It's not entirely clear what the Macross Frontier Fleet Arsenal and local branches of Shinsei Industry and Legodt & Angeloni Industries had in mind for future applications when the YF-29 Durandal's development kicked off.  Maybe it was originally intended to be a Special Forces fighter like the VF-19EF Caliburn or VF-22S Sturmvogel II.  Either way, the frankly impractical amount of ultra-high purity fold quartz needed to manufacture the all-important Fold Wave System that made the YF-29's incredible performance possible also left the fighter impossible to mass produce due to its scarcity.

There are several interesting notes in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried about the Fold Wave System.

It's indicated that the originator of the theory behind the Fold Wave System was none other than Lt. Col. Gadget M. Chiba of the Macross 7 fleet.  It was supposedly an outgrowth of his Sound Energy hypothesis that joined it up to unified fold theory involving using dimensionally-resonant crystals (fold quartz) to amplify fold waves.

Some guidance is also offered with respect to the claim made in the extra features of the Macross Delta blu-rays that asserts the VF-31 Custom "Siegfried" is considered to be a Generation 5.5 Variable Fighter.  Master File's assertion is that the YF-29 and its completed Fold Wave System constitute a 6th Generation VF.  The 5th Generation VF-31 Kairos's retrofits to include that system in the Siegfried type supposedly made it Gen 5.5.  

Also of interest is a note that the VF-31 Custom's Fold Wave System is said to be of a somewhat different design than the YF-29's.  It's said that the design of the Siegfried's Fold Wave System requires less of the ultra-high purity fold quartz needed to make a fold wave system, theoretically without sacrificing the system's performance but at the cost of it being less practical because the system cannot activate and maintain operation without an external fold wave oscillator (aka a suitably powerful biological fold wave source).  It would appear that this is the reason the VF-31 Custom Siegfried type uses its fold wave system so sparingly in the series.  The YF-29 is said to be able to "brute force" activate it without an external fold wave source.

 

It's Earth's 5th Generation Main Variable Fighter, their replacement for the VF-171 Nightmare Plus.

 

Your summation is quite correct.  I just want to add one tiny note to that last sentence.

Macross Galaxy began development of the YF-27 based on the YF-24 spec, but completed the project using development data from Frontier's YF-29 leaked to them by LAI.

 

Unlikely, IMO... but I'm waiting to see actual specs rather than vague claims in potentally unreliable spoilers.

Back in the Macross Delta TV series, it was noted on several occasions that the modifications Xaos made to the trial production VF-31's in Delta Flight's care were already pushing the limits of the airframe's durability.  Expert handling was able to mitigate that issue, but Hayate's rougher style resulted in his VF-31 Custom Siegfried sustaining damage just by how he was flying it.  Though there is some evident frame reinforcement on the Kairos Plus around the wings, I doubt that the stock VF-31 airframe could actually reach the YF-29 performance-wise without suffering a fair amount of damage from stresses beyond the design limit.

There's also been a fair amount said about differences in Fold Wave System design that make the YF-29 superior as well, and the claim made in the Macross Delta series material that the YF-29 is a generation ahead of the Siegfried series and others.

 

ヴィヴァスヴァト would be read Vi-Va-Su-Va-To (ヴィ - ヴァ - ス - ヴァ - ト), so Vivasvat should be the correct transliteration, I'd assume.

My grasp of Hindu mythology is unfortunately quite sparse.  This is, I think, the fourth Hindu mythology reference in Macross's technical setting.  The first was ANGIRAS, the name of the original generation of airframe control AIs used in VFs.  Then there was the Vajra, Surya Aerospace (makers of the VF-31), and now Vivasvat.

  Reveal hidden contents

The Sv-303 Vivasvat is manufactured by the Epsilon Foundation subsidiary Dian Cecht, who also manufacture the Sv-262 Draken III for Windermere IV's Aerial Knights.  Unmanned and remotely controlled by the DE-124 SIREN DELTA SYSTEM, a "Quantum AI" that seems to just by Sharon Apple 2.0.  The TRON lines are a new kind of fold wave-based energy conversion armor, and there's a fourth mode meant for high mobility space dogfighting.

Feels like the Macross II references are coming to a head... the Metal Siren in that OVA also had a fourth mode that deployed all of its engines for high-mobility space dogfighting.

We already had the Star Singer who is basically just an Emulator, and Var syndrome which works almost exactly like the Song of Death from Macross II.

 

My burning question is where the hell the Battle Astraea came from... because, as others have noted, that's clearly a Battle-class under all that garbage and it appears to be what remains of the Battle Galaxy.

My bad, I just misunderstood which fighter you were referring to in your second paragraph here, and was puzzled:

Edited October 9, 2021 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

44 minutes ago, aurance said:

My bad, I just misunderstood which fighter you were referring to in your second paragraph here, and was puzzled:

My apologes for the confusion caused by my grammatical ambiguity.

[aurance]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

My apologes for the confusion caused by my grammatical ambiguity.

No no it’s fine, thanks as always for sharing your knowledge.

A question in a similar vein, do you think the VF-19F/S listed in Macross Mecha Manual Mac7 page are export monkey models? They still seem superior to the YF-19 prototype.

Edited October 9, 2021 by aurance