Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[twich]

So, I have been thinking about Macross 7 lately and the absolutely enormous amount of mecha that we got out of the series.  As is told, the Nova competition was between the VF-11 and the VF-14, with the VF-11 winning out.  In Macross 7, we get the Varuta/Protodevlin mecha that were taken and reworked from the Macross 5 fleet that the protodevlin drained of spiritia and commandeered their equipment.  My question is, given the stats of the Protodevlin mecha that we see, the FZ-109A. FZ-109F, AZ-130A and the FBz-99, we have thermonuclear reaction engines that produce in the realm of 55,000 kgf x2 or greater (in FBz-99 that would be x4) while the Macross 7 fleet is stuck with the VF-11C that boasts a measly 28,500 kgf x2 of thrust as the main variable fighter for the fleet.  I know that the VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22S all have more thrust than the VF-11, but I am trying to discuss the Main Variable Fighter for the 2 fleets.  Why did the UN Spacy go with the clearly inferior Variable Fighter as the Main Variable fighter for the UN Spacy and emigrant fleets?  It is stated that the VF-14 was chosen for some emigrant fleets due to long cruising range and ease of maintenance and low cost of operation.  The fact that it might be heavier, but has way more powerful engines, many more weapons than a Gun Pod and single head laser as standard equipment.  The VF-14 has chest laser cannons, gun pod and built in missile launchers.  Then you take the modified Protodevlin/Varuta variants that have heavier weapons loadouts.  Am I missing something big here that makes the VF-14 that much less desirable than the VF-11?

Twich 

[pengbuzz]

*munches popcorn*

Edited December 4, 2020 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, twich said:

So, I have been thinking about Macross 7 lately and the absolutely enormous amount of mecha that we got out of the series.

Just as long as you don't make me think about Basara.

As much as I love Macross, that guy still grinds my gears with his lack of character development.

 

16 minutes ago, twich said:

As is told, the Nova competition was between the VF-11 and the VF-14, with the VF-11 winning out.  In Macross 7, we get the Varuta/Protodevlin mecha that were taken and reworked from the Macross 5 fleet that the protodevlin drained of spiritia and commandeered their equipment.  My question is, given the stats of the Protodevlin mecha that we see, the FZ-109A. FZ-109F, AZ-130A and the FBz-99, we have thermonuclear reaction engines that produce in the realm of 55,000 kgf x2 or greater (in FBz-99 that would be x4) while the Macross 7 fleet is stuck with the VF-11C that boasts a measly 28,500 kgf x2 of thrust as the main variable fighter for the fleet.  I know that the VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22S all have more thrust than the VF-11, but I am trying to discuss the Main Variable Fighter for the 2 fleets.  Why did the UN Spacy go with the clearly inferior Variable Fighter as the Main Variable fighter for the UN Spacy and emigrant fleets?  It is stated that the VF-14 was chosen for some emigrant fleets due to long cruising range and ease of maintenance and low cost of operation.  The fact that it might be heavier, but has way more powerful engines, many more weapons than a Gun Pod and single head laser as standard equipment.  The VF-14 has chest laser cannons, gun pod and built in missile launchers.  Then you take the modified Protodevlin/Varuta variants that have heavier weapons loadouts.  Am I missing something big here that makes the VF-14 that much less desirable than the VF-11?

Oh boy, where to start...

With respect to the subject of Project Nova and why Shinsei Industry's VF-11 Thunderbolt was selected over General Galaxy's VF-14 Vampire as the next main fighter of the New UN Forces... it's all about roles, and what the New UN Forces were looking for in a 3rd Generation main VF.

The 2nd Generation VFs left the New UN Forces managing large numbers of specialized and niche VFs that were optimized to operate in specific conditions or environments, and which often performed poorly if forced to operate outside their metaphorical comfort zone.  New UN Forces leadership were looking for a "true successor" to the multi-purposefulness of the original VF-1 Valkyrie.  They wanted an all-regime 3rd Generation VF.  Something compact enough to easily operate in a space carrier's unique "ecosystem" and also flexible enough to operate equally well from space carriers and surface bases. 

Shinsei Industry's VF-11 delivered exactly what the New UN Forces asked for: a balanced all-regime main variable fighter ideally suited to be used aboard existing carriers old and new as well as on surface bases. 

What General Galaxy delivered with the VF-14 was a further exploration of the design concept behind the VF-4 Lightning III with all the good and bad that comes with it.  As good a design as it was, it wasn't what the New UN Forces were looking for.

Like the VF-4, the VF-14 is first and foremost a space-use variable fighter.  It had an unusually large airframe for its time and that additional size was leveraged mainly to improve its performance in space and, to a lesser extent, improve its stealthiness.  The VF-14 uses the same generation engine technology as the VF-11 but its greater size allowed the engine to be scaled up accordingly for more power and allowed the fighter to internally carry more fuel to extend its cruising range in space beyond what the VF-11 could accomplish without external tanks.  Its armaments were also internalized and its aerodynamics adjusted for maximum passive stealth performance.  The design choices that made it such an excellent space fighter also made a relatively stable aircraft in atmosphere, negatively impacting its maneuverability.  Not to the same level that it did the VF-4, which didn't surpass its predecessor, but enough that the VF-11 had a clear advantage.

It's also worth noting that the Special Research Unit's VF-14s - the ones that were captured by the Protodeviln and became the basis for the Fz-109 and Az-130 - weren't the standard New UN Forces model.  Macross Chronicle describes them as being an independently developed "heavily armed" specification that differed significantly from the standard New UN Forces VF-14s seen in Macross M3.  The standard VF-14 didn't have the micro-missile launchers or the chest-mounted guns.  

Some emigrant governments had different priorities for their defense forces than the central New UN Forces, and opted to adopt the space-focused VF-14 over the VF-11... but most governments went with the VF-11 for that balanced performance and versatility.  

The VF-17 (starting from the D type), VF-19, VF-22, and VF-171 were built with the next-generation thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine technology.  Their greater thrust output comes from having a more advanced and efficient engine design.  The VF-14, on the other hand, is brute forcing its way to higher thrust outputs by simply making a bigger engine so it's less efficient.

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, twich said:

Am I missing something big here that makes the VF-14 that much less desirable than the VF-11?

Twich 

The short answer is customize-ability, as in option parts.  The VF-11 has all manner of Super Packs, Radomes, and Armour Parts.

While the VF-14 has the advantages of a larger fuel tank, and more internal volume (meaning internal weapons and more space for future improvements to the avionics, etc.), it is has significantly less customize-ability for different mission roles.

 

A good example of the differences is that scene in Macross Plus with the VF-11 walking patrol around the air base.  Yes, the VF-14 can do the same job, but only the VF-11 can bring Destroid-level armour and firepower to that role by donning an Armour Pack... or different capabilities with Super Packs, or a Radome pack, or . . .

 

[pengbuzz]

7 minutes ago, sketchley said:

The short answer is customize-ability, as in option parts.  The VF-11 has all manner of Super Packs, Radomes, and Armour Parts.

While the VF-14 has the advantages of a larger fuel tank, and more internal volume (meaning internal weapons and more space for future improvements to the avionics, etc.), it is has significantly less customize-ability for different mission roles.

 

A good example of the differences is that scene in Macross Plus with the VF-11 walking patrol around the air base.  Yes, the VF-14 can do the same job, but only the VF-11 can bring Destroid-level armour and firepower to that role by donning an Armour Pack... or different capabilities with Super Packs, or a Radome pack, or . . .

 

I would also have to add training as another point.

With a specialized craft such as the VF-14, you need specialized training in order to fly it (slower, different setup, different characteristics in all three modes, etc). Whereas with the VF-11, the pilot can "train up" for the base model and then train in the specific armor and packs as needed without having to train for another craft altogether. Someone coming from a fleet where they used the 14 is going to take a bit longer to get up to speed, for example, as opposed to someone who's coming in from a VF-11 squadron and simply has to train up for armor or whatnot.

Just my opinion, but I may be mistaken.

 

[twich]

So, basically, it is versatility. As mentioned, base VF, super packs, full armor, etc. kinda like the VF-25.

twich

[Bolt]

And... it looks really good in Pink!

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

And... it looks really good in Pink!

Not sure that qualifies as a tactical advantage... O.o

[Bolt]

Surely it threw off enemy Zentradi! They must've stopped in mid combat to ponder the color scheme.
" What is it..?!"

Edited December 4, 2020 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, twich said:

So, basically, it is versatility. As mentioned, base VF, super packs, full armor, etc. kinda like the VF-25.

Essentially, yes... both in the sense that it had a high degree of equipment customizability via Option Packs and that it could operate equally well in space and in the atmospheres of planets.

That was, to the central New UN Forces and most emigrant governments, more desirable than the greater main engine thrust and better passive stealth performance of the VF-14.

 

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I would also have to add training as another point.

With a specialized craft such as the VF-14, you need specialized training in order to fly it (slower, different setup, different characteristics in all three modes, etc). Whereas with the VF-11, the pilot can "train up" for the base model and then train in the specific armor and packs as needed without having to train for another craft altogether. Someone coming from a fleet where they used the 14 is going to take a bit longer to get up to speed, for example, as opposed to someone who's coming in from a VF-11 squadron and simply has to train up for armor or whatnot.

If anything, I'd actually say the opposite would be true.

In terms of familiarity, a pilot who qualified on the VF-4 would probably find the model conversion training for the VF-14 less of an adjustment than the VF-11's.  The VF-14's design is structurally and aerodynamically a lot closer to the VF-4's and they're both VFs optimized for operations in space.  The difference in handling isn't going to be as great as it would be with the more VF-1-like VF-11.  Especially in atmospheric flight, where the VF-11 is going to be a lot more maneuverable.  Pilots who'd qualified on the VF-5000 would probably find the VF-11 the easier aircraft to switch to for similar reasons.

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If anything, I'd actually say the opposite would be true.

In terms of familiarity, a pilot who qualified on the VF-4 would probably find the model conversion training for the VF-14 less of an adjustment than the VF-11's.  The VF-14's design is structurally and aerodynamically a lot closer to the VF-4's and they're both VFs optimized for operations in space.  The difference in handling isn't going to be as great as it would be with the more VF-1-like VF-11.  Especially in atmospheric flight, where the VF-11 is going to be a lot more maneuverable.  Pilots who'd qualified on the VF-5000 would probably find the VF-11 the easier aircraft to switch to for similar reasons.

Hence my disclaimer:

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Just my opinion, but I may be mistaken.

This is one reason I like participating in this topi: if I'm ever unsure of my facts, I can simply post what I think here and see if I'm right or not, especially with folks who have a better background on this (and better access to info pertaining to thus) than I do. I had not considered the fact that the VF-4 was more optimized for spaceflight than for atmospheric, so it makes sense that the switch to another spaceflight-optimized plane would be less of a jump.

Edited December 5, 2020 by pengbuzz

[twich]

Other than “it says it in such and such source” does anyone know the reason that the VF-4 is less maneuverable in atmosphere than the VF-1. Is it thrust to weight! It has canards that the VF-1 doesn’t, seems as though with the higher thrust it should be more maneuverable.....

twich

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, twich said:

Other than “it says it in such and such source” does anyone know the reason that the VF-4 is less maneuverable in atmosphere than the VF-1. Is it thrust to weight! It has canards that the VF-1 doesn’t, seems as though with the higher thrust it should be more maneuverable.....

It's an aerodynamics issue.

Specifically, it's because the delta wing design that the VF-4 adopted to improve its internal fuel capacity and its payload capacity is has comparatively high aerodynamic stability for a fighter.  Fighters get a lot of their maneuverability from being inherently unstable.  The VF-4's long fuselage and large delta wing airframe gives it excellent performance in high speed straight-line flight but its high drag at low speeds and large wing area made it less able to turn quickly.  That's not a problem for it in space, where there's none of that pesky air to get in the way of turning by vernier power, but in atmosphere it's more suited to interceptor and attacker roles.

[pengbuzz]

32 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's an aerodynamics issue.

Specifically, it's because the delta wing design that the VF-4 adopted to improve its internal fuel capacity and its payload capacity is has comparatively high aerodynamic stability for a fighter.  Fighters get a lot of their maneuverability from being inherently unstable.  The VF-4's long fuselage and large delta wing airframe gives it excellent performance in high speed straight-line flight but its high drag at low speeds and large wing area made it less able to turn quickly.  That's not a problem for it in space, where there's none of that pesky air to get in the way of turning by vernier power, but in atmosphere it's more suited to interceptor and attacker roles.

I read something like this about the F-16, and that it relies on flight computers to keep it stable during normal flight (i.e. non dog-fighting maneuvers).

Seto, I seem to recall you mentioning that UN Spacy was envisioning a different kind of war with the Zentraedi (more about planet-based and "taking/ holding territory") than the one they found themselves in ultimately. The VF-1 was very maneuverable in atmosphere but would run out of reactant in space and needed the Super packs, while the VF-4 and VF-14 were more space-based (showing a trend towards space-based after Space War 1). With the advent of the VF-171, 29, 30 and 31, I'm wondering if with the decentralization of the UNS and the establishment of NUNS if the YF-24 Evolution was designed deliberately as a testbed and then dumbed down so that the fleets could make their own advancements based on their perceived need and requirementss.

Am I : 1) correct on this; 2) wrong or 3) overlooking something/ other?

Edited December 5, 2020 by pengbuzz

[twich]

is that the same principle that makes the SV-262 Draken III a good hit and run variable fighter?  I know that it has been discussed that the major weakness of the SV-262 is its lack of internal fuel storage, which is why the Lil'Drakens are necessary to extend the range in space.  (side question, do the 4 missile pod fast packs of the SV-262 hold fuel as well as Micro Missiles?)  In an atmosphere, this isn't really an issue due to the nature of Variable Fighters Thermonuclear reaction burst turbines being able to use air as a propellant in atmosphere to effectively extend the range of a VF in atmosphere.

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I read something like this about the F-16, and that it relies on flight computers to keep it stable during normal flight (i.e. non dog-fighting maneuvers).

Yeah, that's the case for pretty much all modern fighter aircraft... and a fair few non-fighter aircraft that have highly unconventional aerodynamic profiles like the B-2 Spirit flying wing bomber and the F-117A Nighthawk attacker.

 

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

With the advent of the VF-171, 29, 30 and 31, I'm wondering if with the decentralization of the UNS and the establishment of NUNS if the YF-24 Evolution was designed deliberately as a testbed and then dumbed down so that the fleets could make their own advancements based on their perceived need and requirementss.

Am I : 1) correct on this; 2) wrong or 3) overlooking something/ other?

There's no indication that the New UN Government and/or the central New UN Forces had any ulterior motives like that behind their redaction of key technical details from the YF-24 Evolution spec shared with the emigrant governments.

Locally-developed variant specifications were an inevitability long before the New UN Government enacted its new restrictions on arms exports to emigrant governments in the wake of the Sharon Apple incident.  Emigrant fleets were headed out into the great wilderness of space with every expectation that it would take years to find a habitable planet to settle on, and they were equipped with the manufacturing facilities needed to maintain themselves and their defense forces.  It was never going to be a logistically sane proposal to ship hundreds or thousands of new VFs to a fleet that might be ten years away from Earth by space fold.  Instead, the emigrant governments would manufacture those new VFs themselves under license from the manufacturer.  With variances in the technical capabilities of some of those fleets and access to raw materials, that not every emigrant government would be able to manufacture them to the same standard was inevitable.  Similarly, once emigrant governments became more established and emigrant fleets got large enough to have their own self-sustaining economies, it was equally inevitable that some of them would opt to tweak the new designs they received to incorporate their own technical advancements or to fit different requirements from their local defense forces... similar to how Japan tweaked the build-under-license F-16 into the Mitsubishi F-2.  The arms export restrictions intended to preserve the superiority of the central New UN Forces and Earth's NUNS were the reason the specs for the YF-24 Evolution were redacted, but there's a strong possibility most emigrant fleets wouldn't have been able to replicate Earth's most advanced overtechnology even if they'd shared it.

TL;DR: Even if the New UN Gov't had shared the unredacted YF-24 Evolution specs it would've been inevitable that many different local variations were built because of differences in local manufacturing capability, resource availability, etc.  There would've been no need to instigate it, it would've happened naturally.

 

 

1 hour ago, twich said:

is that the same principle that makes the SV-262 Draken III a good hit and run variable fighter?

It's related... the Draken III is a different kind of delta wing design called a tailless cranked arrow delta wing.

By having two different levels of sweepback in the wing, it's able to overcome the problematic loss of performance at low airspeeds in exchange for needing a larger wing surface.  Like the Saab 35 that inspired it, the Draken III provides this by having a blended wing body design so the entire underside of the plane functions as wing surface.  By going tailless and using airfoil shaping combined with using the trailing edge of the wing as elevons, instability could be induced in the otherwise stable delta wing design to make the aircraft more agile.  Combine that with thrust vectoring on multiple axes, and considerable agility can be acheived.

 

1 hour ago, twich said:

I know that it has been discussed that the major weakness of the SV-262 is its lack of internal fuel storage, which is why the Lil'Drakens are necessary to extend the range in space.  (side question, do the 4 missile pod fast packs of the SV-262 hold fuel as well as Micro Missiles?)  In an atmosphere, this isn't really an issue due to the nature of Variable Fighters Thermonuclear reaction burst turbines being able to use air as a propellant in atmosphere to effectively extend the range of a VF in atmosphere.

What little exists in terms of official writeups for the Sv-262 haven't mentioned any fuel in the micro-missile pods.  (Presumably they'd want to keep them as compact as possible to avoid compromising the aerodynamics of the blended wing body.)

The Draken III is a 5th Generation VF, it uses Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines.

I did a summary of the different generations of engine technology here back in September.

 

 

 

The TL;DR version is that the first three generations of VF used the initial-type thermonuclear reaction turbine engine.  That was replaced by a more efficient design, the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine, starting on the Gen 3.5 VFs like the VF-17D/S type and 4th Gen VFs like the VF-19, VF-22, and VF-171.  That, in turns, was replaced by an even more powerful engine design called the Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine on the 5th Generation VFs.  With each generation of engine tech, there's just about a doubling of maximum thrust and improvements in heat-exchange and gravity control system tech.

As far as relevance beyond engine power, the thermonuclear reaction burst turbines combined with enlarged airframes to effectively remove the need for FAST Packs or conformal fuel tanks for most short-to-medium duration space operations.  The later Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines greater power and efficiency flipped the FAST Pack equation around such that the point of them became using boosters to offset the weight of massive amounts of additional weaponry instead of adding a couple weapons to improve the survivability of a booster system.

[pengbuzz]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, that's the case for pretty much all modern fighter aircraft... and a fair few non-fighter aircraft that have highly unconventional aerodynamic profiles like the B-2 Spirit flying wing bomber and the F-117A Nighthawk attacker.

 

There's no indication that the New UN Government and/or the central New UN Forces had any ulterior motives like that behind their redaction of key technical details from the YF-24 Evolution spec shared with the emigrant governments.

Locally-developed variant specifications were an inevitability long before the New UN Government enacted its new restrictions on arms exports to emigrant governments in the wake of the Sharon Apple incident.  Emigrant fleets were headed out into the great wilderness of space with every expectation that it would take years to find a habitable planet to settle on, and they were equipped with the manufacturing facilities needed to maintain themselves and their defense forces.  It was never going to be a logistically sane proposal to ship hundreds or thousands of new VFs to a fleet that might be ten years away from Earth by space fold.  Instead, the emigrant governments would manufacture those new VFs themselves under license from the manufacturer.  With variances in the technical capabilities of some of those fleets and access to raw materials, that not every emigrant government would be able to manufacture them to the same standard was inevitable.  Similarly, once emigrant governments became more established and emigrant fleets got large enough to have their own self-sustaining economies, it was equally inevitable that some of them would opt to tweak the new designs they received to incorporate their own technical advancements or to fit different requirements from their local defense forces... similar to how Japan tweaked the build-under-license F-16 into the Mitsubishi F-2.  The arms export restrictions intended to preserve the superiority of the central New UN Forces and Earth's NUNS were the reason the specs for the YF-24 Evolution were redacted, but there's a strong possibility most emigrant fleets wouldn't have been able to replicate Earth's most advanced overtechnology even if they'd shared it.

TL;DR: Even if the New UN Gov't had shared the unredacted YF-24 Evolution specs it would've been inevitable that many different local variations were built because of differences in local manufacturing capability, resource availability, etc.  There would've been no need to instigate it, it would've happened naturally.

 

Yeah; I wasn't saying they had an ulterior motive, but that they reduced the overall performance so as to create a basic template for fleets to make their own models based on their needs for the craft. Thanks for pointing out that the emigrant fleets had restrictions due to their abilities, economies and materials access.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks for pointing out that the emigrant fleets had restrictions due to their abilities, economies and materials access.

Yeah, that little tidbit first emerged in Macross Dynamite 7 with the reduced capability export variant VF-19 that planet Zola was operating.

It didn't really get discussed in depth until the Macross Frontier setting materials started talking about why the New UN Forces were using the VF-171 instead of the VF-19, though it was Macross the Ride that really dug into it by starting to refer to them by the real world term "monkey model".  Sadly, designation conventions for 'em are a bit inconsistent across the different models with most appending a special designation after the block number, some using a special block number, and some applying a different variant letter.  Several of those local specifications were absolute necessities, since the New UN Government had withheld entire systems from the available specs like the VF-19E's airframe control AI and sensors.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Several of those local specifications were absolute necessities, since the New UN Government had withheld entire systems from the available specs like the VF-19E's airframe control AI and sensors.

"Here's the plans for the new jet."

"I think there was a problem in the transmission, we're missing some parts."

"No, that's complete and correct."

"There's no computer. At all."

"Oh, don't be such a baby. The Wright brothers didn't whine because they didn't have a computer."

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, that little tidbit first emerged in Macross Dynamite 7 with the reduced capability export variant VF-19 that planet Zola was operating.

It didn't really get discussed in depth until the Macross Frontier setting materials started talking about why the New UN Forces were using the VF-171 instead of the VF-19, though it was Macross the Ride that really dug into it by starting to refer to them by the real world term "monkey model".  Sadly, designation conventions for 'em are a bit inconsistent across the different models with most appending a special designation after the block number, some using a special block number, and some applying a different variant letter.  Several of those local specifications were absolute necessities, since the New UN Government had withheld entire systems from the available specs like the VF-19E's airframe control AI and sensors.

Well, that scenario actually would play into the events that led to the development of an in-fleet stealth fighter (the one I designed for the RPG I'm in). Unlikely for most fleets, but ours had some pretty good resources and technical abilities.

 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

"Here's the plans for the new jet."

"I think there was a problem in the transmission, we're missing some parts."

"No, that's complete and correct."

"There's no computer. At all."

"Oh, don't be such a baby. The Wright brothers didn't whine because they didn't have a computer."

ROFL!!

"Wait... why does the engine compartment only have a treadmill with a hamster on it?!"

"Didn't you know? NUNS is trying to save the environment with renewable energy!'

[Bolt]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Several of those local specifications were absolute necessities, since the New UN Government had withheld entire systems from the available specs like the VF-19E's airframe control AI and sensors.

Lol. That didn't hold back a certain SMS cargo pilot

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, that scenario actually would play into the events that led to the development of an in-fleet stealth fighter (the one I designed for the RPG I'm in). Unlikely for most fleets, but ours had some pretty good resources and technical abilities.

Yup... so far, we've had at least four known cases of 5th Generation VFs being original developments by emigrant governments and private corporations.

Plus the Macross Frontier fleet and Macross Galaxy fleets are known to have both created their own local versions of the VF-19, and in the novelization the Galaxy fleet had done major updates to older GG VFs to keep them frontline fit like the VF-17 and VF-9.

 

8 hours ago, Bolt said:

Lol. That didn't hold back a certain SMS cargo pilot

True... though he was never interested in the VF-19's production ARIEL airframe control AI.

When he twisted Dr. Neumann and Shinsei's arms into building him a VF-19 for his personal use, he wanted the prototype's build with none of the safety fixes, control refinements, or performance optimizations.  If Shinsei's legal dept. hadn't already been well and truly involved after that nutjob tried to buy VF-19 parts under the table, they would've been getting panicky calls from development saying "you won't believe what this nutty test pilot wants THIS time".

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yup... so far, we've had at least four known cases of 5th Generation VFs being original developments by emigrant governments and private corporations.

Plus the Macross Frontier fleet and Macross Galaxy fleets are known to have both created their own local versions of the VF-19, and in the novelization the Galaxy fleet had done major updates to older GG VFs to keep them frontline fit like the VF-17 and VF-9.

 Yeah...I almost get the feeling like the colony fleets got "thrown under the bus" once they departed Earth. On that note: ours in the campaign really doesn't like Earth, and the further they can get from them, the better; the CO and crew got burned too many times to count and the political intrigue, conspiracies and overall ham-fistedness and official blundering they did in the story to our group left a very bad taste in many mouths.

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

True... though he was never interested in the VF-19's production ARIEL airframe control AI.

When he twisted Dr. Neumann and Shinsei's arms into building him a VF-19 for his personal use, he wanted the prototype's build with none of the safety fixes, control refinements, or performance optimizations.  If Shinsei's legal dept. hadn't already been well and truly involved after that nutjob tried to buy VF-19 parts under the table, they would've been getting panicky calls from development saying "you won't believe what this nutty test pilot wants THIS time".

ROFL!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

47 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

 Yeah...I almost get the feeling like the colony fleets got "thrown under the bus" once they departed Earth.

Nah... by all indications, the emigrant fleets actually got a pretty sweet deal.

Emigrant fleet populations are volunteers.  They're leaving the still-desolate dustball called Earth to live in a newly built, state-of-the-art city ship while it sails the stars looking for a pristine new planet for them to settle on.  The only ones that've been depicted as not being fairly nice places to live even by modern standards are Macross Galaxy and Macross-29, the former being bad because the government is an amoral corporation with no oversight and the latter because the government is incompetent and ran the economy into the ground.  They leave their home ports with sizable defense fleets armed however the fleet government chooses to equip its forces... which usually means with current-gen variable fighters and warships.  It's not logistically feasible for them to get new tech from Earth directly but they get specs for upgrades and advancements sent to them to manufacture on their own and they also get to commercialize any advancements they develop themselves.

All in all, it sounds like they've got it made in the shade to me.

 

47 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

On that note: ours in the campaign really doesn't like Earth, and the further they can get from them, the better; the CO and crew got burned too many times to count and the political intrigue, conspiracies and overall ham-fistedness and official blundering they did in the story to our group left a very bad taste in many mouths.

When is your game set?

[pengbuzz]

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nah... by all indications, the emigrant fleets actually got a pretty sweet deal.

Emigrant fleet populations are volunteers.  They're leaving the still-desolate dustball called Earth to live in a newly built, state-of-the-art city ship while it sails the stars looking for a pristine new planet for them to settle on.  The only ones that've been depicted as not being fairly nice places to live even by modern standards are Macross Galaxy and Macross-29, the former being bad because the government is an amoral corporation with no oversight and the latter because the government is incompetent and ran the economy into the ground.  They leave their home ports with sizable defense fleets armed however the fleet government chooses to equip its forces... which usually means with current-gen variable fighters and warships.  It's not logistically feasible for them to get new tech from Earth directly but they get specs for upgrades and advancements sent to them to manufacture on their own and they also get to commercialize any advancements they develop themselves.

All in all, it sounds like they've got it made in the shade to me.

 You have some really good points; I thought the two fleets represented how the conditions aboard colony fleets had become by the time of Macross Delta.

 

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

When is your game set?

About a bit after Macross 7 (a few years after Basara's time, but it's a bit anachronistic in that the setting involves the colony fleets having M+/ M7 tech, while Earth is using Macross II stuff (don't ask me why...my GM is a bit of a mystery! lol ). After your report on how the MII stuff stacks up, not sure it would work. In the game, the Unity Gov't. has gotten pretty arrogant and think they have what it takes to paste Zentraedi main fleets like a turkey shoot.

Edited December 7, 2020 by pengbuzz

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Emigrant fleet populations are volunteers.  They're leaving the still-desolate dustball called Earth to live in a newly built, state-of-the-art city ship while it sails the stars looking for a pristine new planet for them to settle on.

M7 had some ghetto parts. Basara and crew were slumming..

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

 You have some really good points; I thought the two fleets represented how the conditions aboard colony fleets had become by the time of Macross Delta.

Nah... as far as we know, most emigrant fleets are reasonably nice places to live like the titular fleets in both Macross 7 and Macross Frontier.

Macross Galaxy is an unpleasant place to live because the Macross Galaxy corporation that serves as the fleet's de facto government doesn't really answer to the fleet's populace.  Their policies prioritized efficiency over quality of life, so they converted support ships producing natural foodstuffs into factories for synthetic food, the habitat sections have little in the way of unutilized space for recreation, and extreme adoption of labor saving technologies led to high unemployment and homelessness.

Macross 29 was originally a nice place to live, and might be one again one day if they're lucky.  The residential areas were damaged by gravitational wave activity, but its main problem was that reality ensued after its government went full Relina and adopted a policy of unarmed total pacifism.  It turns out that being an extreme doormat when you're negotiating trade agreements with neighboring nations is a Very Bad Idea and they ended up with an economy-crushing trade imbalance.

 

14 hours ago, Bolt said:

M7 had some ghetto parts. Basara and crew were slumming..

It had A "ghetto" part... which, in all fairness, wasn't actually a part of the City-7 or the 37th large-scale long-distance emigrant fleet.

The Akusho district was a separate 300m-long Island-type habitat ship that had attached itself to one of the City-7's docking ports without authorization and was allowed to remain for reasons that are never given.  It wasn't a registered part of the fleet.  Even though its buildings were in disrepair, it's worth noting that all the public utilities still worked (incl. purely cosmetic ones like the holographic sky) and there was no evident crime.  Basara's home might've been an abandoned apartment building that had holes in the walls and at least one floor, but it still had power, light, heat, clean running water, access to the fleet's communications network, and appliances including a stove w/ cooktop, refrigerator, and a positively gargantuan TV.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even though its buildings were in disrepair, it's worth noting that ... there was no evident crime. 

I'd hope not, with a highly-visible VF-19 for security. Kinda thing that makes people think twice about smashing a window and taking off with the TV.

[pengbuzz]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nah... as far as we know, most emigrant fleets are reasonably nice places to live like the titular fleets in both Macross 7 and Macross Frontier.

Macross Galaxy is an unpleasant place to live because the Macross Galaxy corporation that serves as the fleet's de facto government doesn't really answer to the fleet's populace.  Their policies prioritized efficiency over quality of life, so they converted support ships producing natural foodstuffs into factories for synthetic food, the habitat sections have little in the way of unutilized space for recreation, and extreme adoption of labor saving technologies led to high unemployment and homelessness.

Wow... sounds likr that fleet needed someone to sae it from its' own government!

  

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross 29 was originally a nice place to live, and might be one again one day if they're lucky.  The residential areas were damaged by gravitational wave activity, but its main problem was that reality ensued after its government went full Relina and adopted a policy of unarmed total pacifism.  It turns out that being an extreme doormat when you're negotiating trade agreements with neighboring nations is a Very Bad Idea and they ended up with an economy-crushing trade imbalance.

"Full Relina"... as in Relina of the Sanc Kingdom in New Mobile Report Gundam Wing?

If that's the case, "doormat" may be a fairly kind nomenclature. IIRC, her kingdom got absolutely plowed.

[Seto Kaiba]

44 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Wow... sounds likr that fleet needed someone to sae it from its' own government!

Yup... Macross the Musiculture's plot revolves around a reform movement called the Neo Zentran that emerged out of anti-government rioting five years before the story's start.

(The main character, Vigo, was an aspiring dancer who abandoned his dream to infiltrate the Neo Zentran movement to get revenge for a fellow dancer who lost a leg in the rioting, ended up reforming it into a legitimate political movement in opposition to the current pacifistic administration, and became its candidate for mayor.)

 

44 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

"Full Relina"... as in Relina of the Sanc Kingdom in New Mobile Report Gundam Wing?

If that's the case, "doormat" may be a fairly kind nomenclature. IIRC, her kingdom got absolutely plowed.

At least Macross 29's extreme doormat approach to diplomacy only left it in economic ruin instead of literal ruin.

Whether the fleet can actually recover is another matter entirely... since the ending kind of ignores the actual causes of the fleet's problems in favor of trying to revitalize the fleet's economy via the entertainment industry.  (Kind of missing the fact that a Miss Macross contest is not exactly an innovative idea, entertainment-wise, since many fleets seem to have at least one analogous contest.)

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, JB0 said:

I'd hope not, with a highly-visible VF-19 for security. Kinda thing that makes people think twice about smashing a window and taking off with the TV.

I dunno... anyone familiar with Basara would know that thing isn't armed.

Most of the time, it almost seems like the Akusho district isn't occupied by anyone other than Basara, Ray, and Veffidas... and maybe the occasional visitor like Rex's biker gang.

[pengbuzz]

45 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I dunno... anyone familiar with Basara would know that thing isn't armed.

Most of the time, it almost seems like the Akusho district isn't occupied by anyone other than Basara, Ray, and Veffidas... and maybe the occasional visitor like Rex's biker gang.

Except for the missiles in the lower legs that Basara was trying to remove and Ray convinced him to leave them in.

[twich]

I believe it still has head/monitor turret lasers (beam Cannon?)and wing root lasers (beam cannon?), plus the internal micro missiles previously mentioned. I know Basara doesn’t want them there, but it is still equipped.

twich

Edited December 7, 2020 by twich

[pengbuzz]

13 minutes ago, twich said:

I believe it still has head/monitor turret lasers (beam Cannon?)and wing root lasers (beam cannon?), plus the internal micro missiles previously mentioned. I know Basara doesn’t want them there, but it is still equipped.

twich

And of course, Mylene's whining, but that only counts if she's flying with Basara. :P

[JB0]

Also, even an unarmed thirty-foot robot poses an inherent threat to pedestrians.