Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, twich said:

Now where did the notion come from that the progression of head lasers also implied increased armor? Or am I mixing up Macross/Robotech again?

Yeah, that was a Robotech-ism.

IIRC, the idea that different variants had different amounts of armor originated in the Robotech RPG published by Palladium Books in the late 80's.  I don't recall the idea having a lot of traction until Robotech: Battlecry came out in 2002, though it reversed the RPG's take by giving the higher-performance variants less armor instead of more.  I know the so-called "2nd Edition" RPG ultimately discarded the idea altogether and gave the different variants the same armor.

 

 

12 hours ago, Bolt said:

The original concept may have been (or may not) for the VF-1J to replace the VF-1A. Nevertheless it makes sense SPACY would field different variants. They may have decided the VF-1J was a good squadron leader type and kept the 1S as the Platoon leader type. While keeping the good ole A as the infantry type. Purely guessing here.

Yeah, that why I'm keen to find out if what I've been told about this is true.

Whatever the original stance was, the VF-1J was pretty quickly written into the role of being a Japanese manufacturer's competing proposal for the UN Forces' main VF-1 variant with enhanced armament that never really caught on due to Shinnakasu's low production capacity.  The double handful of VF-1Js that were stationed aboard the Macross were almost the entire production run, though it was only in the TV series that they were used as platoon leader machines.  They were kind of demoted to a heavy weapons type in DYRL?, deploying the Armored Pack (supposedly due to native compatibility since they're made by the same company).

 

12 hours ago, Bolt said:

Interesting. If so, Roy certainly had a lot pull. Perhaps makes sense considering his status as a veteran Valkyrie pilot. 

He absolutely had a lot of authority aboard the Macross... but it wasn't due to his veteran status, it was due to his position in the ship's administrative hierarchy.

Roy was the Macross's CAG: the Commander of the ship's Air Group.  Commander of the Air Group is a position held by the most senior officer in the embarked aircraft squadrons, who functions as the aviation department head in the ship's command structure.  All of the squadron leaders report to the CAG, while the CAG reports directly to the captain.  Roy had a gargantuan amount of authority as CAG, considering the Macross had at least fourteen squadrons embarked at any given time.  He was also perfectly positioned to offer his kouhai special treatment given his level of authority and the fact that Hikaru was already a highly qualified pilot.

 

 

4 hours ago, sketchley said:

However, years later, Kawamori-san introduced Energy Conversion Armour in Macross Zero and retconned that into SDFM, etc.  If memory serves, the VF-1S had "better" engines with slightly higher output, so it's in the realm of plausibility that the VF-1S had "better" armour in Battroid (the only mode in the VF-1 that the Energy Conversion Armour is active).

The VF-1S had engines tuned for greater thrust.  I don't recall them saying anything about more generator output.

[pengbuzz]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

He absolutely had a lot of authority aboard the Macross... but it wasn't due to his veteran status, it was due to his position in the ship's administrative hierarchy.

Roy was the Macross's CAG: the Commander of the ship's Air Group.  Commander of the Air Group is a position held by the most senior officer in the embarked aircraft squadrons, who functions as the aviation department head in the ship's command structure.  All of the squadron leaders report to the CAG, while the CAG reports directly to the captain.  Roy had a gargantuan amount of authority as CAG, considering the Macross had at least fourteen squadrons embarked at any given time.  He was also perfectly positioned to offer his kouhai special treatment given his level of authority and the fact that Hikaru was already a highly qualified pilot.

Just out of curiosity: would Roy have been considered equal or slightly lesser rank to Misa Hayase? In RT, they were both Commanders (I think); in SDFM Roy was Major iirc, and Misa I think she was a Lieutenant, but she was also ship's Xo (unless I'm mistaken).

 

On a less serious note...speaking of Roy and Hikaru:

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by pengbuzz

[treatment]

Roy's a shosa.

Misa's only a tai-i.

[Bolt]

Awesome! That @Falconk playing Fokker..right?

Edited August 8, 2020 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Just out of curiosity: would Roy have been considered equal or slightly lesser rank to Misa Hayase? In RT, they were both Commanders (I think); in SDFM Roy was Major iirc, and Misa I think she was a Lieutenant, but she was also ship's Xo (unless I'm mistaken).

Roy outranked Misa the entire time he was alive.

Misa Hayase was a 1st Lieutenant at the start of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series.  Her position was the chief air traffic controller.  She was later promoted to Captain after escaping from the Zentradi fleet and finished the series as a Major.  In Macross: Do You Remember Love?, she starts the story as a Captain in the same position and is promoted to Major after her escape from the Zentradi.

It's not explicitly stated who the Macross's executive officer was, IIRC but the circumstantial evidence points to Colonel Maistroff.

 

3 hours ago, Bolt said:

Awesome! That @Falconk playing Fokker..right?

Yeah, that's @Falconkpd playing Roy Focker.

I don't recall if Annika has a handle on here.

[pengbuzz]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Roy outranked Misa the entire time he was alive.

Misa Hayase was a 1st Lieutenant at the start of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series.  Her position was the chief air traffic controller.  She was later promoted to Captain after escaping from the Zentradi fleet and finished the series as a Major.  In Macross: Do You Remember Love?, she starts the story as a Captain in the same position and is promoted to Major after her escape from the Zentradi.

It's not explicitly stated who the Macross's executive officer was, IIRC but the circumstantial evidence points to Colonel Maistroff.

Okay, thanks for the clarification!

[Seto Kaiba]

 

So... fun thought, I think this might actually be the first time we've seen art of a VF-11D being used for its intended purpose as a training aircraft.

We've seen the ELINT/AWACS conversion the VE-11 Thunder Seeker, the modified VF-11D's used by the Jamming Birds and the Thunder Focus camera aircraft used to film Vanquish Races, but I honestly can't recall ever seeing a VF-11D in regular military markings being used for its intended purpose.

Source is the Hasegawa 1/72 Thunderbolt Test Pilot School type kit: https://www.hlj.com/1-72-scale-vf-11d-thunderbolts-test-pilot-school-hsg65866

 

[Bolt]

Ya. Been drooling over this since it was posted in the "what will Hasegawa do next" thread. 

I love that it's a New Edwards VF.

And i love Tenjin's art work.

I wonder if this baby is tuned up.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Bolt

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I wonder if this baby is tuned up.

You could argue the whole point of training aircraft is that they aren't tuned up above spec.. so that new pilots can learn easier, heh. Then again.. it is for test pilot training and their job is to kinda break stuff...

[Bolt]

11 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

You could argue the whole point of training aircraft is that they aren't tuned up above spec.. so that new pilots can learn easier, heh. Then again.. it is for test pilot training and their job is to kinda break stuff...

Right. My first thought was , it's got to be de tuned for the newb's. But seeing as it's a Test pilot trainer..

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

You could argue the whole point of training aircraft is that they aren't tuned up above spec.. so that new pilots can learn easier, heh. Then again.. it is for test pilot training and their job is to kinda break stuff...

Guess they listen to Limp Bizkit "break stuff" when they fly

[sketchley]

9 hours ago, Bolt said:

And i love Tenjin's art work.

I wonder if this baby is tuned up.

Nice picture!

I would err on the side of it being tuned up.  Reasons being:

• the VF-11D Kai has "lightly" tuned up engines (among other things)—why not carry those over to this one?
• the later produced (and more common?) VF-11C is somewhat detuned compared to the earlier VF-11B.  Therefore, if we take the VF-11C as the base model, then even just by reverting to the VF-11B specs, it would be a "tune up", no?
• what the other guys said about it being to train test pilots at New Edwards.  Maybe the pilots are used to the "stock" VF-11(B or C).  It would make a heck of a lot of sense to gently push them outside of their familiarity envelope with a tuned VF-11 to show them just what they're getting themselves into (without going overboard with a risk-your-life-every-flight VF-19A!)

Heck, it might even be part of the training program for the pilots to be involved in the tuning process.  I'm sure there's an equivalent training program going on for ground crew... why not have both working on the same fighter?  Pilot feedback to the ground crew and engineers is an important part of the test pilot job, after all.

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by sketchley

[Sanity is Optional]

Given advanced avionics: they probably just have it tuned up, and then tell the flight control software to simulate being normal or de-tuned as necessary.

[Sildani]

That looks awesome!

[Seto Kaiba]

On 8/20/2020 at 12:30 AM, Master Dex said:

You could argue the whole point of training aircraft is that they aren't tuned up above spec.. so that new pilots can learn easier, heh. Then again.. it is for test pilot training and their job is to kinda break stuff...

I got distracted by a few minor emergencies at work while I was researching the curriculum at real world military test pilot schools, so I meant to respond a lot earlier.  While I was drafting my reply, it occurred to me the answer was actually coming from another direction entirely.

Specifically, it's not about the needs of the test pilot school... it's about the military's habits regarding aircraft tuning.

Barring a few isolated cases of "ace tuning" (like the VF-27γ) or built-to-order aircraft (like the VF-11MAXL), the military in Macross seems to generally stick to factory tunings or are inclined to detune hardware to improve reliability, reduce maintenance requirements, and extend the service lives of key parts (like the VF-171).  Tuning for improved performance (at the implicit cost of durability/lifespan) is more a thing we see from irregulars like Sound Force and non-military users like SMS/Xaos.

 

 

On 8/20/2020 at 8:46 AM, sketchley said:

• the VF-11D Kai has "lightly" tuned up engines (among other things)—why not carry those over to this one?

But is this aircraft from before or after Macross 7?  

 

On 8/20/2020 at 8:46 AM, sketchley said:

• the later produced (and more common?) VF-11C is somewhat detuned compared to the earlier VF-11B.  Therefore, if we take the VF-11C as the base model, then even just by reverting to the VF-11B specs, it would be a "tune up", no?

Is it, though?  From what I recall, the VF-11C was a mixed bag that offered largely identical or slightly better performance thanks to avionics improvements.  The only area I recall it being mentioned as deficient vs. the VF-11B was that the omission of its bayonet made it less capable in close quarters combat.

 

On 8/20/2020 at 8:46 AM, sketchley said:

• what the other guys said about it being to train test pilots at New Edwards.  Maybe the pilots are used to the "stock" VF-11(B or C).  It would make a heck of a lot of sense to gently push them outside of their familiarity envelope with a tuned VF-11 to show them just what they're getting themselves into (without going overboard with a risk-your-life-every-flight VF-19A!)

Wouldn't that be what simulators and training versions of the more ambitious aircraft are for?  (e.g. the VF-19B?)

 

On 8/20/2020 at 8:46 AM, sketchley said:

Heck, it might even be part of the training program for the pilots to be involved in the tuning process.  I'm sure there's an equivalent training program going on for ground crew... why not have both working on the same fighter?  Pilot feedback to the ground crew and engineers is an important part of the test pilot job, after all.

If it operates anything like a modern military test pilot school, there is a separate course specifically for flight test engineers that covers that kind of thing in excruciating detai.

 

 

On 8/20/2020 at 4:07 PM, Sanity is Optional said:

Given advanced avionics: they probably just have it tuned up, and then tell the flight control software to simulate being normal or de-tuned as necessary.

We know that there are at least some software-based performance limiters built into the airframe control AI and other system software... though some of the tunings would have to be done manually, in the hardware.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I got distracted by a few minor emergencies at work while I was researching the curriculum at real world military test pilot schools, so I meant to respond a lot earlier.  While I was drafting my reply, it occurred to me the answer was actually coming from another direction entirely.

Specifically, it's not about the needs of the test pilot school... it's about the military's habits regarding aircraft tuning.

Barring a few isolated cases of "ace tuning" (like the VF-27γ) or built-to-order aircraft (like the VF-11MAXL), the military in Macross seems to generally stick to factory tunings or are inclined to detune hardware to improve reliability, reduce maintenance requirements, and extend the service lives of key parts (like the VF-171).  Tuning for improved performance (at the implicit cost of durability/lifespan) is more a thing we see from irregulars like Sound Force and non-military users like SMS/Xaos.

 

 

But is this aircraft from before or after Macross 7?  

 

Is it, though?  From what I recall, the VF-11C was a mixed bag that offered largely identical or slightly better performance thanks to avionics improvements.  The only area I recall it being mentioned as deficient vs. the VF-11B was that the omission of its bayonet made it less capable in close quarters combat.

 

Wouldn't that be what simulators and training versions of the more ambitious aircraft are for?  (e.g. the VF-19B?)

 

If it operates anything like a modern military test pilot school, there is a separate course specifically for flight test engineers that covers that kind of thing in excruciating detai.

 

 

We know that there are at least some software-based performance limiters built into the airframe control AI and other system software... though some of the tunings would have to be done manually, in the hardware.

I wonder if Guld's YF-21 "Omega-1" was specifically tuned to his requirements? I think I saw somewhere that he designed the craft, but I'm most likely mistaken.

[Bolt]

I believe he had a heavy hand in it.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

15 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if Guld's YF-21 "Omega-1" was specifically tuned to his requirements? I think I saw somewhere that he designed the craft, but I'm most likely mistaken.

Guld Goa Bowman was a General Galaxy employee and one of the designers collaborating on the development of the YF-21 in addition to being its lead test pilot.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Bolt said:

I believe he had a heavy hand in it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Guld Goa Bowman was a General Galaxy employee and one of the designers collaborating on the development of the YF-21 in addition to being its lead test pilot.

Okay, thanks for the clarification on that. Watching M+, it was a little unclear and aside from what I had read elsewhere once, I didn't see much else to confirm one way or another.

[slide]

On 8/20/2020 at 7:46 AM, sketchley said:

• what the other guys said about it being to train test pilots at New Edwards.  Maybe the pilots are used to the "stock" VF-11(B or C).  It would make a heck of a lot of sense to gently push them outside of their familiarity envelope with a tuned VF-11 to show them just what they're getting themselves into (without going overboard with a risk-your-life-every-flight VF-19A!)

On 8/27/2020 at 7:27 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Wouldn't that be what simulators and training versions of the more ambitious aircraft are for?  (e.g. the VF-19B?)

Simulators are used to teach pilots systems-management, procedures, emergency procedures, cockpit familiarization, etc. while safely on Terra-Firma. They also allow a pilot to get an expectation of what's up with certain handling quirks [I'm lookin' at YOU, F-14 Tomcat!!] in a safe environment, so that they can spend their actual flight-hours integrating all their previous flight knowledge with the minutia of running/flying a new machine specifically. so yes.

 

In the real-world, it's an absolute luxury to have a gov't rich enough to order dedicated training models of a front-line fighter. Even then, dedicated trainer models are typically rare, short production-run things.

Canada, for example, has 2-seat CF-18's, but they're not dedicated trainers, they're fully operational air-frames that may conveniently be used for the training role. This is how most nations get around that problem... they're 'not trainers', but they can be/are often used that way.

Of course, then there are countries like India, whose entire Su-30MKI fleet is Tandem-seating...

"training versions of the more ambitious aircraft " ...... that's at odds with modernity it seems, as there are no two-seaters for our most advanced, ultra expensive air-frames like F-22, F-35, Su-57. J-20, J-35, F-117 [though Nighthawk is more of a unique case.. especially since she's an attacker].

However, since NUNS runs the world(s) in a way our current world powers can only have steamy dreams over, they can do whatever they want, I suppose, so they could just order VT [or B, D, etc] versions of everything.

 

 

Anyhow, I would suspect a "Test Pilot School" would be about teaching very competent pilots about test-flying and those procedures/skills, which is a big change from combat-flying. In addition to a set of "instructor controls", I suspect the rear-seater in the New-Edwards VF-11D's has FCS/computer-access and all sorts of failure/kill-switches to mess with the student.

 

 

For anyone interested, the current training scheme for an RCAF Fast Jet pilot is as follows:

Spoiler

Phase 1: primary flight training on the Grob 120-A

Phase 2: basic flight training on the CT-156 Harvard II

---Students are sorted into their career-streams at this point: Multi-Engine, Rotary Wing, and Fast Jets.

Phase 3: advanced fighter training on the CT-155 Hawk; learning advanced aerobatics, instrument flying, and tactical formation flying.

Phase 4: known as Fighter Lead-In Training (FLIT), still on the Hawk

Then you graduate to 410 Tactical Fighter Operational Training Squadron (the Cougars) at CFB Cold-Lake, where you will learn how to fly the CF-18 [410 Sqn. are the most prolific, but all the operational CF-18 squadrons train nuggets]. 

So by the time you've reached the Front-Line fighter, you already know what you're doing, you just need to learn the particulars of your new airplane.

In Canada, the AETE is where you would end up to be a test pilot, and to qualify, you need to be a graduate of a test-pilot school program like this

Edited August 29, 2020 by slide

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, slide said:

Simulators are used to teach pilots systems-management, procedures, emergency procedures, cockpit familiarization, etc. while safely on Terra-Firma. They also allow a pilot to get an expectation of what's up with certain handling quirks [I'm lookin' at YOU, F-14 Tomcat!!] in a safe environment, so that they can spend their actual flight-hours integrating all their previous flight knowledge with the minutia of running/flying a new machine specifically. so yes.

It likely helps that the simulators we've seen in Macross Plus and Macross Frontier seem to be a bit more... extreme... than anything we currently have today.  

The one in Macross Plus is particularly terrifying, given that it seems to not only be on a fairly extreme armature but appears to be straight-up rocket propelled.

 

 

1 hour ago, slide said:

In the real-world, it's an absolute luxury to have a gov't rich enough to order dedicated training models of a front-line fighter. Even then, dedicated trainer models are typically rare, short production-run things.

Canada, for example, has 2-seat CF-18's, but they're not dedicated trainers, they're fully operational air-frames that may conveniently be used for the training role. This is how most nations get around that problem... they're 'not trainers', but they can be/are often used that way.

All told, that level of obscene luxury seems to be fairly rare in Macross as well.

There are very few dedicated training variants of VFs out there.  Most VFs follow suit with that real world practice of having a variant with a tandem cockpit on an airframe otherwise identical to the single-seat main version.  The VF-1 had dedicated model conversion training variants - the improvised VF-1D and production VT-1 - but that was justified in that the two of 'em were being used to train pilots on VF operation in general not just on a specific model of aircraft.  From then on, you see mostly fully operational tandem variants like the VF-4B, VF-11D, VF-17T, VF-19B/D, etc. until optional second seats became a standard feature on the 5th Gen main VFs.

 

 

1 hour ago, slide said:

However, since NUNS runs the world(s) in a way our current world powers can only have steamy dreams over, they can do whatever they want, I suppose, so they could just order VT [or B, D, etc] versions of everything.

Depends on the locale... I think a lot of the reason we DON'T see dedicated training variants for most models of VF is that it's only really Earth that has the benefit of massively over-the-top manufacturing capability thanks to its nearly two dozen factory satellites.  Most emigrant fleets have to make do with more restraint via onboard factories or factory ships in similar lines to the Macross 7 fleet's Three Star.  

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, slide said:

...

For anyone interested, the current training scheme for an RCAF Fast Jet pilot is as follows:

  Hide contents

Phase 1: primary flight training on the Grob 120-A

Phase 2: basic flight training on the CT-156 Harvard II

---Students are sorted into their career-streams at this point: Multi-Engine, Rotary Wing, and Fast Jets.

Phase 3: advanced fighter training on the CT-155 Hawk; learning advanced aerobatics, instrument flying, and tactical formation flying.

Phase 4: known as Fighter Lead-In Training (FLIT), still on the Hawk

Then you graduate to 410 Tactical Fighter Operational Training Squadron (the Cougars) at CFB Cold-Lake, where you will learn how to fly the CF-18 [410 Sqn. are the most prolific, but all the operational CF-18 squadrons train nuggets]. 

So by the time you've reached the Front-Line fighter, you already know what you're doing, you just need to learn the particulars of your new airplane.

In Canada, the AETE is where you would end up to be a test pilot, and to qualify, you need to be a graduate of a test-pilot school program like this

Thank you for posting this.  As someone interested in military aviation in general—not to mention being a fellow "Canuckistanian" who has moved to the land of the rising sun—it's very informative.

... and further highlights just how romanticized things are in Macross.  However, I suspect that things in Macross are influenced as much—if not more so—by the procedures in the JASDF than they are by those in the USAF.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, slide said:

I suspect the rear-seater in the New-Edwards VF-11D's has FCS/computer-access and all sorts of failure/kill-switches to mess with the student.

If Macross Delta is any indication, even single-seaters used for training purposes are replete with all kinds of instructor controls over the student's interface.

[slide]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It likely helps that the simulators we've seen in Macross Plus and Macross Frontier seem to be a bit more... extreme... than anything we currently have today.  

The one in Macross Plus is particularly terrifying, given that it seems to not only be on a fairly extreme armature but appears to be straight-up rocket propelled.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's a deathmachine...

I always thought that it was thrusters, that the pod was floating in an artificial gravity field, and the "armature" was actually fuel lines, power-lines and buses for the various AG generators and instruments inside the pod... but maybe that was me overthinking it on that one... now that I type it out, that sounds REALLY expensive... especially considering what we saw Isamu do to it

Then again... didn't they new-build the '19 once, then have to repair the crap out of that second one for Isamu's assignment to the project?

 

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If Macross Delta is any indication, even single-seaters used for training purposes are replete with all kinds of instructor controls over the student's interface.

Overtechnology must be wondrous for stuff like that.

I can't imagine having any sort of remote shutdown/control stuff in a fighter, but then again, Alto was able to slave his VF-25 to his EX-gear wirelessly... which, I suppose, is the same thing connectivity wise...

 

15 hours ago, sketchley said:

Thank you for posting this.  As someone interested in military aviation in general—not to mention being a fellow "Canuckistanian" who has moved to the land of the rising sun—it's very informative.

... and further highlights just how romanticized things are in Macross.  However, I suspect that things in Macross are influenced as much—if not more so—by the procedures in the JASDF than they are by those in the USAF.

No worries, I became quite interested when it was mentioned and decided to find out.

I have a PS for that post: If you sail under a star of fortune like Chris Hadfield, once you've spent some time at CETE, you apply to the Canadian Space Program and get to ride the big rockets with NASA!

Edited August 30, 2020 by slide

[camk4evr]

16 hours ago, slide said:

 

 

Overtechnology must be wondrous for stuff like that.

I can't imagine having any sort of remote shutdown/control stuff in a fighter, but then again, Alto was able to slave his VF-25 to his EX-gear wirelessly... which, I suppose, is the same thing connectivity wise...

 

 

Did you know that the AVRO Arrow could have been flown from the ground if anything happened to the pilot?

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, camk4evr said:

Did you know that the AVRO Arrow could have been flown from the ground if anything happened to the pilot?

That's pretty impressive, especially as the Avro Arrow was completed in 1957!

[Sanity is Optional]

On 8/30/2020 at 8:56 AM, slide said:

Overtechnology must be wondrous for stuff like that.

I can't imagine having any sort of remote shutdown/control stuff in a fighter, but then again, Alto was able to slave his VF-25 to his EX-gear wirelessly... which, I suppose, is the same thing connectivity wise...

Probably helps that almost all the enemies of the various Macross series are not the types that could hijack a VF through hacking the external control interface (Sharon Apple and Windermere aside). The most common enemy is the Zentradi, and they can barely maintain their own equipment.

Also there's a loooong history of Ghost usage, so there's very advanced remote-operation tech (as in Frontier it's shown that local AI is heavily limited).

[Bolt]

Just waiting for Galaxy to show up and start taking names..

[Seto Kaiba]

On 8/30/2020 at 11:56 AM, slide said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's a deathmachine...

I always thought that it was thrusters, that the pod was floating in an artificial gravity field, and the "armature" was actually fuel lines, power-lines and buses for the various AG generators and instruments inside the pod... but maybe that was me overthinking it on that one... now that I type it out, that sounds REALLY expensive... especially considering what we saw Isamu do to it

Then again... didn't they new-build the '19 once, then have to repair the crap out of that second one for Isamu's assignment to the project?

To be fair, the OVA is pretty clear about the YF-19 having a pretty excellent claim to the title of "deathmachine" itself.

Shinsei's YF-19 team had already lost two test pilots in fatal accidents, seen two more hospitalized with serious injuries, totalled one of their two prototypes, and seriously damaged the other even before Isamu was assigned as their latest victim test pilot.  Depending on the version of the story, he became the third test pilot to sustain serious injuries.

 

On 8/30/2020 at 11:56 AM, slide said:

I can't imagine having any sort of remote shutdown/control stuff in a fighter, but then again, Alto was able to slave his VF-25 to his EX-gear wirelessly... which, I suppose, is the same thing connectivity wise...

On Hayate's VF-1EX, the training support AI that was under the remote control of the instructor aircraft (Mirage's VF-1EX) was something that could be switched off from the trainee aircraft's side.  That was a dedicated training aircraft, though.  The remote control an EX-Gear suit has over a VF is noted to be pretty limited and pretty short-ranged.  Presumably it's disabled if there's an EX-Gear suit already connected to the aircraft (with the apparent exception of a direct physical plug connection as in Frontier Ep7.  I'd imagine there's also some pretty hefty cryptographic protections on that function as well to prevent unauthorized individuals from remotely operating a VF.

 

25 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

Probably helps that almost all the enemies of the various Macross series are not the types that could hijack a VF through hacking the external control interface (Sharon Apple and Windermere aside). The most common enemy is the Zentradi, and they can barely maintain their own equipment.

Windermere hijacked the pilots themselves, not the controls... and Sharon never seemed to actually be in control of the YF-19 itself, just messed with the communication system's holographic displays.  Ideally, you'd want to isolate the aircraft controls from outward-facing communications systems for exactly that reason.  

(Cars and other vehicles with connectivity to outside networks usually have a hardware firewall between the protected vehicle network and the outside world that is set up to filter communications from the outside world so that only legitimate data for very specific purposes is gated through to the protected network... unless you're Tesla, then you just leave your sh*t open to the goddamn world so that hackers can gain access to every car your company has ever sold.)

 

25 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

Also there's a loooong history of Ghost usage, so there's very advanced remote-operation tech (as in Frontier it's shown that local AI is heavily limited).

The original QF-3000's AI was noted to be somewhat flaky and as a result the early Ghosts were run almost exclusively in semi-autonomous mode only.

The Sharon Apple-based autonomous AI developed for the AIF-X-9 Ghost had its own issues, and government restrictions in the wake of Sharon's little psychotic break meant that an improved version of the QF-3000 Ghost's AI was used for most modern Ghosts.  (Excl. Luca's, which used a version of the banned Sharon Apple AI in the form of the Judas System, and the AIF-X-8S prototypes from the audio dramas that used personality AIs modeled on Skull Platoon members Luca Angeloni, Alto Saotome, and Michael Blanc.)

 

[Sanity is Optional]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Windermere hijacked the pilots themselves, not the controls... and Sharon never seemed to actually be in control of the YF-19 itself, just messed with the communication system's holographic displays.  Ideally, you'd want to isolate the aircraft controls from outward-facing communications systems for exactly that reason.  

(Cars and other vehicles with connectivity to outside networks usually have a hardware firewall between the protected vehicle network and the outside world that is set up to filter communications from the outside world so that only legitimate data for very specific purposes is gated through to the protected network... unless you're Tesla, then you just leave your sh*t open to the goddamn world so that hackers can gain access to every car your company has ever sold.)

Was more referring to ability, rather then actually doing it. Zentradi, Vajra, and the space-vampires from 7 don't seem like they could even understand hacking, let alone attempt it.

As far as hardware firewalls, it really depends how the system is set up. Ghosts by necessity have to be able to accept outside commands. As does the VF-25 (seen by remote piloting in Frontier+Movies). Presumably all of the Ex-Gear fighters share similar abilities.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The original QF-3000's AI was noted to be somewhat flaky and as a result the early Ghosts were run almost exclusively in semi-autonomous mode only.

The Sharon Apple-based autonomous AI developed for the AIF-X-9 Ghost had its own issues, and government restrictions in the wake of Sharon's little psychotic break meant that an improved version of the QF-3000 Ghost's AI was used for most modern Ghosts.  (Excl. Luca's, which used a version of the banned Sharon Apple AI in the form of the Judas System, and the AIF-X-8S prototypes from the audio dramas that used personality AIs modeled on Skull Platoon members Luca Angeloni, Alto Saotome, and Michael Blanc.)

In the beginning of Frontier, the ghosts are shown as going nuts as soon as they enter the com-jamming bubbles the Vajra create, so they are at least somewhat reliant on external signals to function (Judas system aside).

[Seto Kaiba]

31 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

Was more referring to ability, rather then actually doing it. Zentradi, Vajra, and the space-vampires from 7 don't seem like they could even understand hacking, let alone attempt it.

Well, yeah... the Vajra definitely wouldn't understand the basic concept.  The Zentradi were shown to have some pretty effective communications decryption technology going for them back in Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but it's doubtful they would know how to apply it to something like hacking a remotely-operated vehicle.  The Protodeviln would probably be the ones most likely to understand it since they had to have some pretty good understanding of the Protoculture's overtechnology given that they were able to fairly swiftly apply some to the tech captured in the Varauta system to produce their improved versions of the local VFs and warships, as well as all the spiritia-related gizmos they use.

 

31 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

As far as hardware firewalls, it really depends how the system is set up. Ghosts by necessity have to be able to accept outside commands. As does the VF-25 (seen by remote piloting in Frontier+Movies). Presumably all of the Ex-Gear fighters share similar abilities.

Yes, I know... the whole point of a stand-alone hardware firewall is to filter incoming and outgoing communications to make sure that any modules that have outward-facing network communication are isolated from the rest of the vehicle's data networks and authenticate and sanity-check any data that's being sent between the vehicle's outward-facing networks and internal network.  I have quite a bit of experience with them from my day job.

 

31 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

In the beginning of Frontier, the ghosts are shown as going nuts as soon as they enter the com-jamming bubbles the Vajra create, so they are at least somewhat reliant on external signals to function (Judas system aside).

Yes, as noted the AIF-7 Ghosts used by the Macross Frontier New UN Forces are operating with a semi-autonomous AI system. 

Like their predecessor, they're dependent on the mothership to direct them to the combat zone and provide them with mission parameters.  The jamming they encountered from the Vajra was extraordinarily intense, enough that it not only blinded the radars of the warships monitoring the action and severed communication links with the Ghosts headed into that area, it also caused visible electric arcing and disrupted or even disabled the Ghost's onboard systems.  (That suggests this was closer to an EMP attack than actual jamming.)

[slide]

On 8/31/2020 at 3:33 AM, camk4evr said:

Did you know that the AVRO Arrow could have been flown from the ground if anything happened to the pilot?

Actually no, I did not. 

I assume that was so they could get the airframe back from the Arctic if the pilots got fried because they were too close to the Genies when they detonated? 

 

On 8/31/2020 at 7:35 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

...The jamming they encountered from the Vajra was extraordinarily intense, enough that it not only blinded the radars of the warships monitoring the action and severed communication links with the Ghosts headed into that area, it also caused visible electric arcing and disrupted or even disabled the Ghost's onboard systems.  (That suggests this was closer to an EMP attack than actual jamming.)

if you hook a broad-spectrum jammer up to a powerful enough generator, isn't that exactly what would happen [in theory]?

Also, since they're space bugs that evolved [presumably] into their current form; that's either a hell of a hide-and-seek adaptation [which it can't be, because they're emitting energy at a high intensity], or that's Humans mis-interpreting a "hey, stay the F away from me" communication ["vocalization" seems like the wrong way to characterize it, but they communicate with fold waves, which means energy], so the "jamming" may have been the Vajra equivalent of a growl, or cat hissing.

I can only imagine any other space-borne life form would get the message after entering their electrical/energy field... even a space-whale might take notice!

Edited September 3, 2020 by slide

[pengbuzz]

On 8/29/2020 at 8:24 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It likely helps that the simulators we've seen in Macross Plus and Macross Frontier seem to be a bit more... extreme... than anything we currently have today.  

The one in Macross Plus is particularly terrifying, given that it seems to not only be on a fairly extreme armature but appears to be straight-up rocket propelled.

It would seem to me like a drink mixer that pours out what used to be pilots O.o

[slide]

38 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

It would seem to me like a drink mixer that pours out what used to be pilots O.o

Sounds like a fair assessment.

[Bolt]

Agreed. Just goes to show what a tough SOB Isamu is. And no wonder he was tapped to test the YF-24. Now wouldn't that be an awesome OVA!