Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[ManhattanProject972]

I'd say a SV-52 would have a greater space endurance than a VF-1 without any optional equipment.

Its a much larger airframe than a VF-1 so I'd think there would be more internal space for fuel for the main engines and verniers.

Though like you guys said, FAST packs for space duty is where the VF-1 pulls ahead being more modular and whatnot, but I wonder what would a SV-52 super pack geared for space would look like? 

Larger wing mounted boosters, maybe some leg/nacelle armor both with a plethora of extra verniers?

 I don't know what they could do for the arms, perhaps something like what the YF-21 had mounted between its vertical and horizontal stabilizers?

Because of its much longer wingspan I feel like verniers at the tips of the wings would be more efficient than a VF-1 at attitude control, though the SV-52 would probably be heavier so its rotational mass would be larger. 

[Giantman]

Here's an odd question and I hope this is the correct place for it.  How did the Windermereans come to use the Sv fighter line as their own?  If I'm not mistaken the Sv Draken is a descendant of the original Sv's from Macross zero right?  Is there some connection between the anti UN forces from Zero and the anti NUNS sentiment shared by the Windermereans?  Also I'm only on episode 14 of Delta, so if the answer contains spoilers for the series conclusion please keep that in mind, thanks.

[Giantman]

So I just saw the guy from the Epsilon foundation explain how he sold the Sv units to Windermere.  

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Giantman said:

If I'm not mistaken the Sv Draken is a descendant of the original Sv's from Macross zero right?  Is there some connection between the anti UN forces from Zero and the anti NUNS sentiment shared by the Windermereans?

If I recall, it is HIGHLY unclear what, if any, relation the "modern" Sv units have with the Zero machines.

And no, they are two completely independent and unrelated anti-UN movements.

[azrael]

Modern Sv-units are in-name-only. The people who worked on the SV-51 are long since dead. The current Sv-line's purpose is to create a anti-VF VF.

[Seto Kaiba]

15 hours ago, sketchley said:

If memory serves, the first time I came across the Sv-52 was in Macross Chronicle, and the only 'statistical' data that accompanied it was that the conventional turbine engines were replaced with thermonuclear ones.

Yeah, that's the one detail about the Sv-52 that is presented consistently across all sources... that the Sv-52 was supposed to be an upgrade to the Sv-51 that included thermonuclear reaction turbine engines.  It's not even clear if any Sv-52s were actually built, due to the Alliance folding shortly after the Sv-51s were first put into practical combat service.  Macross the Ride kind of comes across in two minds about it, asserting that some units may have survived the First Space War in underground bunkers in Eastern Europe but then contradicting it by saying that Magdalena Zielonaska's Sv-52 is actually a heavily modified Sv-51.  Other sources suggest the Sv-52 was never completed before the Alliance disbanded.  Master File took both views with a middle-of-the-road approach to the question, asserting that the Alliance did begin construction of the first lot of Sv-52s but had to stop because they were unable to secure key components including the all-important thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and the incomplete airframes were retrofitted back to Sv-51 specification using available hardware.

 

 

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Going back to the original question: as the Sv-51 suffers from a limited fuel load, the Sv-52 would too.  Therefore, the VF-1 is still better because it has the capability to be extensively developed with FAST Packs and Super Parts for increased endurance (range + time on the battlefield).

I disagree.

Presuming the Sv-52 is using a mostly unmodified Sv-51 airframe, the sheer amount of space in the substantially larger airframe of the Sv-52 should enable it to carry a substantial amount of fuel.  The Sv-51's problem is that, for the internal volume it has, it wasn't enough to provide a long operating time when the fighter's engines were burning jet fuel.  Likewise, the VF-1's issues with a limited onboard fuel capacity stemmed from its size being deliberately constrained to a battroid mode that was approximately the size of a Zentradi.

The Sv-51 is so much larger than a VF-1 that it should have no problems accommodating enough internal fuel to match or exceed the capacity of a VF-1 Super Valkyrie using just its internal tanks.  After all, we're talking about a plane that is quite literally twice the size of the VF-1.

 

 

13 hours ago, sketchley said:

(I thought that the regime was obvious, as I went on about FAST Packs.  And as the (original) VF-1 FAST Packs can only be used in space... )

Y'never know... there are some books that have shown the VF-1 using FAST packs in atmosphere... and a few games as well.  The amount of thrust to get airborne is there, but it'd handle like a cow in a supermarket trolley.  

 

 

10 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Though like you guys said, FAST packs for space duty is where the VF-1 pulls ahead being more modular and whatnot, but I wonder what would a SV-52 super pack geared for space would look like? 

Probably little different from the ones the Sv-51 had... just equipped with thermonuclear reaction turbine engines or rockets rather than conventional turbines.

The Sv-51's got more underwing pylon stations, so it shouldn't need as much modular armament mounted in boosters.

 

 

7 hours ago, Giantman said:

Here's an odd question and I hope this is the correct place for it.  How did the Windermereans come to use the Sv fighter line as their own?  If I'm not mistaken the Sv Draken is a descendant of the original Sv's from Macross zero right?  Is there some connection between the anti UN forces from Zero and the anti NUNS sentiment shared by the Windermereans?  Also I'm only on episode 14 of Delta, so if the answer contains spoilers for the series conclusion please keep that in mind, thanks.

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

If I recall, it is HIGHLY unclear what, if any, relation the "modern" Sv units have with the Zero machines.

And no, they are two completely independent and unrelated anti-UN movements.

They're related in a VERY indirect, roundabout fashion... but one that contains absolutely no spoilers.

The account we've had of the connection indicates that the team that developed the Sv-154 and Sv-262 was founded by one of the Sv-51's lead developers (Alexei Kurakin) who wasn't really all that invested in the Anti-Unification Alliance's goals and had defected back to the UN Government once the Alliance officially folded.  He was taken on by Stonewell/Bellcom and subsequently attached to the VF-X-4 program during its space trials on the moon.  He and his Stonewell/Bellcom team survived the First Space War's end by being on the moon, and he later became one of the co-founders of General Galaxy.  During his stint as one of the heads of GG's development staff, he used his authority to create a special development team called the SV Works that was focused on VF vs VF combat as a core design concept (SV standing for Slayer Valkyrie or Slayer of Valkyries).  After he died, the SV Works team didn't fold, and was later sold off to the Epsilon Foundation subsidiary Dian Cecht, who was providing things like ships and fighters to a number of governments and organizations including Windermere IV's government.

So, basically, the only real connection to the Sv-51 is the design team that produced the Sv-154 and Sv-262 was founded by one of the developers of the Sv-51.

Anti-government sentiment has basically nothing to do with it, since the SV Works team was founded by a developer who defected to the UN Government and who did most of his work for the UN Government.  Windermere IV's Kingdom of the Wind purchased the Sv-154 Svard while it was still very much a member of the New UN Government.  It kept the Sv- designation because the design is not one that was adopted by the New UN Forces in any capacity.  Windermere IV's local NUNS garrison used the VF-171 and VF-22, and the Aerial Knights were sort of a stand-alone formation retained out of tradition and a sense of national pride, and operated in concert with the New UN Forces before the war of secession in 2060.

[Sildani]

Nice. Now, two questions:

Why was VF-1 battroid size deliberately set at Zentraedi size? Does Dian Cecht actually mean anything, or is it just a cool collection of sounds?

[Seto Kaiba]

17 minutes ago, Sildani said:

Nice. Now, two questions:

Why was VF-1 battroid size deliberately set at Zentraedi size?

Simply, with the exception of the VF-0 and Sv-51 that needed to be larger for practical development reasons, the early VFs were developed around the assumption of having to fight alien infantry who were projected to be ~10m tall based on examination of the SDF-1 Macross's interior spaces.  It only became apparent that the alien forces also used mecha once the first battle of the First Space War broke out and humanity encountered the Regult for the first time.  By that point, the 1st Generation and early 2nd Generation designs were set and well into development, so the assumption didn't start getting properly corrected until the 3rd Generation. 

 

17 minutes ago, Sildani said:

Does Dian Cecht actually mean anything, or is it just a cool collection of sounds?

Dian Cecht, or rather Dian Cécht, is an Irish/Celtic deity from pre-Christian Gaelic Ireland.  He's a member of the Tuatha Dé Danann and the god of healing.

Not sure why they would name a defense contractor for a god of healing, unless the specialization in combat robots is a reference to one of Dian Cécht's most famous feats, providing King Nuada with an artificial arm of silver that could function as a normal arm.

[sketchley]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, that's the one detail about the Sv-52 that is presented consistently across all sources... that the Sv-52 was supposed to be an upgrade to the Sv-51 that included thermonuclear reaction turbine engines.  It's not even clear if any Sv-52s were actually built, due to the Alliance folding shortly after the Sv-51s were first put into practical combat service.  (...)

I may be mixing it up with the thermonuclear engine equipped version of the Octos, but I remember reading somewhere about the Unified Forces using some of the Anti Unification Alliance Variable Craft during the first interstellar war.

If memory serves, I don't believe it was a case of making 'new' war machines, but a case of maximizing on 'war booty'.  With the Octos, there was a rather significant number of them, too.
 

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Presuming the Sv-52 is using a mostly unmodified Sv-51 airframe, the sheer amount of space in the substantially larger airframe of the Sv-52 should enable it to carry a substantial amount of fuel.  (...)

The Sv-51 is so much larger than a VF-1 that it should have no problems accommodating enough internal fuel to match or exceed the capacity of a VF-1 Super Valkyrie using just its internal tanks.  After all, we're talking about a plane that is quite literally twice the size of the VF-1.

To be honest, there aren't that many facts to go on.  So, even though the Sv-51 is remarkably larger than the VF-1, we don't know where the internal fuel tanks are, nor how large they are.  The only facts we really have is that the Sv-51 *needed* 2x to 4x additional drop-tanks to perform a short combat sortie - and that's even with being launched and recovered close to a battle field!

The official setting info implies that a non-FAST Pack equipped VF-1 has similar operational restrictions, in space.  On the other hand, cutaway drawings for the engine nacelle FAST Packs for the VF-1 show that they are mostly fuel tanks and so forth.

So, while I agree that the Sv-51 would have larger internal fuel tanks, I disagree that that alone is more than that carried by a FAST Pack equipped Valkyrie.

 

Quote

Y'never know... there are some books that have shown the VF-1 using FAST packs in atmosphere... and a few games as well.  The amount of thrust to get airborne is there, but it'd handle like a cow in a supermarket trolley.  

Yeah... those media tend to ignore the official setting description of the VF-1 FAST Packs.  It's not until we get to Macross 7 that we start to see aerospace Super Parts (for those that don't: FAST Packs that can be used in both space and atmosphere).

But if you put enough thrust on it, even a brick can fly!

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, sketchley said:

I may be mixing it up with the thermonuclear engine equipped version of the Octos, but I remember reading somewhere about the Unified Forces using some of the Anti Unification Alliance Variable Craft during the first interstellar war.

I remember the Macross Chronicle coverage of the Octos destroid says that manufacturing was resumed under UN Government control, but I do recall a few mentions of the Sv-51 being allegedly used during the First Space War.  Magdalena Zielonaska in Macross the Ride claims that her Sv-52γ Oryol was (pre-modification) a Sv-51 which her grandfather had flown in the First Space War.  There was also that Variable Fighter Experimental Requirements Review column in Character Model magazine back a little bit after Macross Zero had ended (Spring 2004 issue, IIRC) which was a featurette about the UN Government using captured/surrendered Sv-51s for competitive benchmarking purposes.

 

 

10 minutes ago, sketchley said:

If memory serves, I don't believe it was a case of making 'new' war machines, but a case of maximizing on 'war booty'.  With the Octos, there was a rather significant number of them, too.

Probably thinking of the above-mentioned VFERR article in Character Model then?

 

 

10 minutes ago, sketchley said:

To be honest, there aren't that many facts to go on.  So, even though the Sv-51 is remarkably larger than the VF-1, we don't know where the internal fuel tanks are, nor how large they are.  The only facts we really have is that the Sv-51 *needed* 2x to 4x additional drop-tanks to perform a short combat sortie - and that's even with being launched and recovered close to a battle field!

There are a few factoids that would let us make educated guesses.  We know there are fuel lines throughout the wings, so it's fairly logical there would be tanks there too, joined by flexible pipe segments to accommodate the bending of the wing.  Assuming the Sv-51 was designed to be retrofitted for space use with thermonuclear engines, there are likely larger tanks inside the engine nacelles, since thermonuclear engines use fuel as coolant as well during space operations.

To draw on Master File, as long as the Sv-51 has more than 5,400L of internal fuel capacity, it's officially one-up on the VF-1, and given its size that doesn't seem unreasonable at all given that we're talking an aircraft that is substantially larger and noted to be roomy enough that it can easily be retrofitted with equipment designed for the VF-17.

[ManhattanProject972]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Simply, with the exception of the VF-0 and Sv-51 that needed to be larger for practical development reasons, the early VFs were developed around the assumption of having to fight alien infantry who were projected to be ~10m tall based on examination of the SDF-1 Macross's interior spaces.  It only became apparent that the alien forces also used mecha once the first battle of the First Space War broke out and humanity encountered the Regult for the first time.  By that point, the 1st Generation and early 2nd Generation designs were set and well into development, so the assumption didn't start getting properly corrected until the 3rd Generation. 

 

So its like a bunch of Parakeets built a human sized mecha to fight us humans but didn't realize us humans have things like an Abrams or Apache?

[SMS007]

Do any official materials specify what the production version of the YF-24 is for NUNS Earth? I assume anyway that they made something for themselves before Frontier developed the YF/VF-25 and Galaxy developed the YF/VF-27.

[Master Dex]

3 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Do any official materials specify what the production version of the YF-24 is for NUNS Earth? I assume anyway that they made something for themselves before Frontier developed the YF/VF-25 and Galaxy developed the YF/VF-27.

Mostly a bunch of implications. It's generally assumed they made a VF-24 and it is implied to be stupid powerful because it's full spec. No details exist but due to the kinds of tasks the YF-24 was designed to be able to do (quick fold booster equipped jumps behind enemy lines to unload pure death before jumping out to safety) it can be assumed the VF-24 can do such things and does against Zentradi fleets. 

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

So its like a bunch of Parakeets built a human sized mecha to fight us humans but didn't realize us humans have things like an Abrams or Apache?

... I suppose so, yes.  I thought my pets were badly behaved...

 

 

9 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Do any official materials specify what the production version of the YF-24 is for NUNS Earth? I assume anyway that they made something for themselves before Frontier developed the YF/VF-25 and Galaxy developed the YF/VF-27.

5 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Mostly a bunch of implications. It's generally assumed they made a VF-24 and it is implied to be stupid powerful because it's full spec. No details exist but due to the kinds of tasks the YF-24 was designed to be able to do (quick fold booster equipped jumps behind enemy lines to unload pure death before jumping out to safety) it can be assumed the VF-24 can do such things and does against Zentradi fleets. 

All we know of the Earth/Federal New UN Forces' 5th Generation fighter - presumed to be designated VF-24 - is that the YF-24 program was successfully revived by Shinsei Industry in 2055 as the YF-24 Evolution and that the final prototype was approved for adoption and mass production by the New UN Forces in 2057.  Once the Federal New UN Forces decided on adopting the YF-24 Evolution as their next main fighter, a redacted version of the specifications were shared via the Galaxy Network to the various New UN Government members and swiftly became the basis for all other 5th Generation VFs including the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.¹ 

Indications are that it is uber as all get-out, and that the only emigrant-produced fighter able to rival it for performance is the YF-29[A] Durandal.²  The prototype is known to have beat a mixed unit of 12 VF-19s and VF-22s supported by 6 air-to-air specification QF-4000s singlehandedly in testing.

 

1. The VF-31 Kairos and Sv-262 Draken III are the only 5th Generation designs not known to be directly descended from the YF-24 Evolution spec.  It's unknown what the Sv-262's relation to the other 5th Gen designs is, and the VF-31 is indirectly descended from the YF-24 given that it's an economized YF-30, which directly descended from the YF-24 and YF-29.

2. The YF-29B Percival doesn't count, because it's an improved YF-29 produced for the federal New UN Spacy Special Forces unit Havamal and as a result counts as a federal forces VF.

[sketchley]

On 2017-10-30 at 9:05 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

(...) Assuming the Sv-51 was designed to be retrofitted for space use with thermonuclear engines, there are likely larger tanks inside the engine nacelles, since thermonuclear engines use fuel as coolant as well during space operations.

I'd like to agree with you completely, but... for the life of me, I can't recall seeing manoeuvring verniers on the Sv-51.

So, even assuming that the Sv-51 could be retrofitted for space use by swapping engines, there still needs to be extensive modification to add vernier thrusters and their fuel tanks on the airframe - which eats into the available space for fuel for the thermonuclear engines.

The other thing that dawned on me is that although there is a lot of space on the wings to strap on fuel tanks, the extra weight there both degrades the rotational flight performance and increases the amount of fuel spent recovering from rotational manoeuvres (apologies if I'm using the wrong words here).  Whereas, because the VF-1's additional fuel stores are clustered around its central mass, the effects of the additional weight are less significant (another angle to appreciate here is the stresses on the airframe - specifically wings and wing roots - is greater on the Sv-51.  So, its cost-performance is also reduced).

 

[SMS007]

Damn, I want a Macross series that shows off the power of this VF-24 superfighter!

18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All we know of the Earth/Federal New UN Forces' 5th Generation fighter - presumed to be designated VF-24 - is that the YF-24 program was successfully revived by Shinsei Industry in 2055 as the YF-24 Evolution and that the final prototype was approved for adoption and mass production by the New UN Forces in 2057.  Once the Federal New UN Forces decided on adopting the YF-24 Evolution as their next main fighter, a redacted version of the specifications were shared via the Galaxy Network to the various New UN Government members and swiftly became the basis for all other 5th Generation VFs including the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.¹ 

Indications are that it is uber as all get-out, and that the only emigrant-produced fighter able to rival it for performance is the YF-29[A] Durandal.²  The prototype is known to have beat a mixed unit of 12 VF-19s and VF-22s supported by 6 air-to-air specification QF-4000s singlehandedly in testing.

 

1. The VF-31 Kairos and Sv-262 Draken III are the only 5th Generation designs not known to be directly descended from the YF-24 Evolution spec.  It's unknown what the Sv-262's relation to the other 5th Gen designs is, and the VF-31 is indirectly descended from the YF-24 given that it's an economized YF-30, which directly descended from the YF-24 and YF-29.

2. The YF-29B Percival doesn't count, because it's an improved YF-29 produced for the federal New UN Spacy Special Forces unit Havamal and as a result counts as a federal forces VF.

I'm a bit confused by that wording. Why do you say that the VF-31 is only indirectly descended from the YF-24 when the VF-31 is basically just a modified YF-30? Haven't the other YF-24 derivatives gone through intermediate development steps? Didn't Frontier go from YF-24 to YF-25 to VF-25 and Galaxy from YF-24 to YF-27 to VF-27?

Edited October 31, 2017 by SMS007

[Master Dex]

It's because the YF-30 is a departure in base design and was just made as a tech demonstrator for an updated form of the fold wave system. The choice to use it as a base for a production design came later and wasn't initially intended where the YF-25 was always meant to lead to a VF-25. It wouldn't be surprising to learn there was a YF-31 intermediate step but we haven't seen one. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

Honestly since the UN Spacy follows US type designations, Y is not the appropriate prefix for the YF-30. Since the YF-30 is a technology testbed, it would be more accurate to call it the XF-30. This is because Y designates a pre-production prototype, while X denotes an experimental aircraft. 

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Honestly since the UN Spacy follows US type designations, Y is not the appropriate prefix for the YF-30. Since the YF-30 is a technology testbed, it would be more accurate to call it the XF-30. This is because Y designates a pre-production prototype, while X denotes an experimental aircraft. 

Well, lol, you'd be right, but SMS actually cheated a bit so they didn't have to release the specs for the mech and the fold dimensional resonance system if I recall correctly. The mech was given the YF designator as if it was intended to be a prototype for a later system that never existed (apparently NUNS law didn't require prototype specs to be released). No doubt the NUNS eventually caught on and that is why the specs for the base unit were available for Surya to use for the VF-31.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Damn, I want a Macross series that shows off the power of this VF-24 superfighter!

Unfortunately, it's unlikely we'll see the VF-24 anytime soon since it is rather uber and used principally by the federal New UN Forces, who seem to be rather averse to poking their oars into these small regional conflicts...

 

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I'm a bit confused by that wording. Why do you say that the VF-31 is only indirectly descended from the YF-24 when the VF-31 is basically just a modified YF-30? Haven't the other YF-24 derivatives gone through intermediate development steps? Didn't Frontier go from YF-24 to YF-25 to VF-25 and Galaxy from YF-24 to YF-27 to VF-27?

The VF-31 would be the only 5th Generation VF in the New UN Forces inventory that doesn't have a direct connection to the YF-24 in its development... in the sense that if you drew a geneological "family tree" of VFs it would be the only one separated from the YF-24 by more than one step since the VF-31 is a heavily modified and economized YF-30.  Instead of being directly derivative of the YF-24, it's a derivative of a derivative of the YF-24.

Essentially, instead of YF-24 -> Prototype -> Final as in the case of the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30, it'd be:
YF-24 & YF-29 -> YF-30 -> YF-31 -> VF-31.

 

 

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

It's because the YF-30 is a departure in base design and was just made as a tech demonstrator for an updated form of the fold wave system. The choice to use it as a base for a production design came later and wasn't initially intended where the YF-25 was always meant to lead to a VF-25. It wouldn't be surprising to learn there was a YF-31 intermediate step but we haven't seen one. 

Well, we have... but in Master File.

 

 

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Honestly since the UN Spacy follows US type designations, Y is not the appropriate prefix for the YF-30. Since the YF-30 is a technology testbed, it would be more accurate to call it the XF-30. This is because Y designates a pre-production prototype, while X denotes an experimental aircraft. 

SMS Uroboros was using the YF designation as a way to game the law requiring them to disclose the specifications for the fold dimensional resonance system.  Under the YF classification, it was considered to still be a prototype under active development, which exempted them from having to disclose the complete specs (presumably because a prototype would be expected to still have its specs changing reasonably often).  Since Richard Bilra was using the Uroboros branch as his own private lab to test all manner of ways to break through fold faults, which would be an enormous boon to his business if he could find one that he can exploit on a large scale, he naturally wanted to keep it somewhat secret and thus gamed the system to avoid disclosing the new technologies SMS had developed for as long as possible.

[Valkyrie Driver]

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

SMS Uroboros was using the YF designation as a way to game the law requiring them to disclose the specifications for the fold dimensional resonance system.  Under the YF classification, it was considered to still be a prototype under active development, which exempted them from having to disclose the complete specs (presumably because a prototype would be expected to still have its specs changing reasonably often).  Since Richard Bilra was using the Uroboros branch as his own private lab to test all manner of ways to break through fold faults, which would be an enormous boon to his business if he could find one that he can exploit on a large scale, he naturally wanted to keep it somewhat secret and thus gamed the system to avoid disclosing the new technologies SMS had developed for as long as possible.

Well, then the UN Spacy does things a little bit differently. Under the US Tri service Aircraft designation system, the YF-30 would be classed as an experimental craft, while Y is for limited production prototypes that are used during Testing and Evaluation. The YF-30 is more akin to the purpose built NASA X-planes designed to test new equipment and construction technologies (like the X-29, X-34, X-36, X-43, and to an extent the X-53). 

I would have also thought that SMS would have worked on the improved fold technologies hand in hand with the federal NUNS forces. Similarly to how it works in the US. Company develops an Idea, patents it to protect their hold on the tech, but the government can partner with the company to utilize the technology by purchasing from the company, and refining the technology. Then private entities must license the technology from the patent holder. 

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, sketchley said:

I'd like to agree with you completely, but... for the life of me, I can't recall seeing manoeuvring verniers on the Sv-51.

There are a few structures on the Sv-51 that look like verniers, but not the traditional thrust vectoring ring-type Stonewell/Bellcom loves so much...

 

16 hours ago, sketchley said:

So, even assuming that the Sv-51 could be retrofitted for space use by swapping engines, there still needs to be extensive modification to add vernier thrusters and their fuel tanks on the airframe - which eats into the available space for fuel for the thermonuclear engines.

Maybe so, but we're dealing with such a large airframe that it's unlikely that would be enough to offset the gains from no longer needing to carry a few thousand gallons of jet fuel.  The efficiency of thermonuclear reaction turbines is such that a VF can get by for weeks on less fuel than a single modern fighter's drop tank contains.  You could handily fit a VF-1 in the space occupied by the Sv-51's engine nacelles alone, and that argues strongly for it having the greater capacity.

(From assorted sources incl. Master File, the VF-1's fuel consumption rate in atmosphere is just a hair over 1.007L/hr.  IIRC, in the Master File books the verniers are sharing at least some of their fuel demand with the main tanks.)

 

16 hours ago, sketchley said:

The other thing that dawned on me is that although there is a lot of space on the wings to strap on fuel tanks, the extra weight there both degrades the rotational flight performance and increases the amount of fuel spent recovering from rotational manoeuvres (apologies if I'm using the wrong words here).

Granted, but the Sv-51 (and Sv-52?) has a lot more wing area to play with and as a result larger control surfaces, as well as a multi-axis thrust-vectoring nozzle instead of a two-dimensional one, which should offset the difference nicely.  The movable wing, which could be coupled with a wingtip roll-control thruster like the VF-1's, would potentially offer greater precision of control than what the VF-1 can bring to the party.

 

16 hours ago, sketchley said:

 Whereas, because the VF-1's additional fuel stores are clustered around its central mass, the effects of the additional weight are less significant (another angle to appreciate here is the stresses on the airframe - specifically wings and wing roots - is greater on the Sv-51.  So, its cost-performance is also reduced).

There's nothing stopping them from putting conformal tanks on a Sv-51 or Sv-52, the wing tanks are a matter of expediency for the submarine launch environment since the fighters had to be stored nose-up with the wings folded.

(The conformal tanks on the VF-1 had an ulterior motive... expanding the coolant stores for the thermonuclear reactor in space operations.)

 

 

33 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Well, then the UN Spacy does things a little bit differently. Under the US Tri service Aircraft designation system, the YF-30 would be classed as an experimental craft, while Y is for limited production prototypes that are used during Testing and Evaluation. The YF-30 is more akin to the purpose built NASA X-planes designed to test new equipment and construction technologies (like the X-29, X-34, X-36, X-43, and to an extent the X-53). 

Not really the New UN Spacy's doing in this case, like I've indicated before the YF-30's designation was a deliberate attempt by the SMS Uroboros office to "game the system" and avoid disclosing the existence and capabilities of the fold dimensional resonance system.  By classifying it as a late development prototype (YF) for that was stil being evaluated, they were able to avoid having to disclose the specifications of all of its equipment to the New UN Government.  If they'd classified it as an experimental fighter (a VF-X), the Experimental classification would have resulted in drawing government and military scrutiny to a project that Mr. Bilra went to almost comical extremes to keep secret.  After deliberately establishing an overfunded, undermanned SMS presence on one of the galaxy's most remote and inaccessible worlds in a bid to keep the project as secret as possible within the confines of galactic law.  Filing for a VF-X designation after doing all that would've rather defeated the point, being tantamount to advertising that they were working on something unique and special that would practically demand military or government oversight.

 

33 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I would have also thought that SMS would have worked on the improved fold technologies hand in hand with the federal NUNS forces. Similarly to how it works in the US. Company develops an Idea, patents it to protect their hold on the tech, but the government can partner with the company to utilize the technology by purchasing from the company, and refining the technology. Then private entities must license the technology from the patent holder. 

This is an era of megacorporations that often skirt the law or believe themselves to be above it... and remember, this was not only Richard Bilra's personal passion, it was something with enormous potential to expand his company's control of interstellar shipping into a virtual monopoly.  "Reality ensues" in that the New UN Forces are no better at keeping secrets than modern militaries are... which is to say they're absolutely bloody terrible at it.

[SMS007]

On a different subject, why does the VF-171 have its number? Is there real-life precedent for a "17" fighter getting economized into version "171"? Petty concern, but "171" offends my sense of order when almost every other variable fighter designation has followed an obvious numerical scheme.

Edited October 31, 2017 by SMS007

[sketchley]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

SMS Uroboros was using the YF designation as a way to game the law requiring them to disclose the specifications for the fold dimensional resonance system.  (...)

@ the OP of the question: SMS isn't the first one to do this.  Galaxy Fleet did it with the YF-27.  So, in some ways its SMS merely copying what their rivals have already done.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Maybe so, but we're dealing with such a large airframe that it's unlikely that would be enough to offset the gains from no longer needing to carry a few thousand gallons of jet fuel.  The efficiency of thermonuclear reaction turbines is such that a VF can get by for weeks on less fuel (...)

I'll repeat what I said earlier:  in space.

Discussions on fuel capacity are meaningless when talking about thermonuclear reaction engines in an atmosphere. 

So, please consider my comments on wing loads and stresses in that context.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There's nothing stopping them from putting conformal tanks on a Sv-51 or Sv-52, the wing tanks are a matter of expediency for the submarine launch environment since the fighters had to be stored nose-up with the wings folded.

(The conformal tanks on the VF-1 had an ulterior motive... expanding the coolant stores for the thermonuclear reactor in space operations.)

I've already addressed the conformal tanks on the Sv-51/52 earlier.

... and only the FAST Packs on the back the engine nacelles on the VF-1 have been indicated as coolant stores.  The other ones are fuel.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, SMS007 said:

On a different subject, why does the VF-171 have its number? Is there real-life precedent for a "17" fighter getting economized into version "171"?

Sort of... but not quite in the same way.

The "VF-171" designation is presumably a furthering of the in-joke reference to its inspiration, the F-117A Nighthawk, which also had an aberrant/non-systemic designation that was itself an in-joke.  (The 117 was a generic radio call used for aircraft that the 4477th test squadron were flying - typically captured enemy aircraft - that they didn't want to publicly identify.)  It may also be a reference to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, which is actually a different aircraft entirely from the F/A-18 and was intentionally set down as F/A-18E/F to sneak the acquisitions past congress who, it was felt, wouldn't pony up for a new aircraft so it was sent down for approvals as though it were an upgrade to the existing F/A-18... which is also a non-systemic designation.

 

3 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Petty concern, but "171" offends my sense of order when almost every other variable fighter designation has followed an obvious numerical scheme.

It hasn't happened often, but the Macross universe has at least been consistent about treating new aircraft derived from existing aircraft directly with wild number jumps like that.  The jumbo-ized VF-1 Valkyrie got designated VF-3000 despite technically being a contemporary of the VF-4.

 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

@ the OP of the question: SMS isn't the first one to do this.  Galaxy Fleet did it with the YF-27.  So, in some ways its SMS merely copying what their rivals have already done.

Galaxy Fleet did it backwards, though... their fighter was a production aircraft, but because they never disclosed the existence of the production spec to the New UN Government it's officially considered to still be a YF even though it's mass-produced.

 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

I'll repeat what I said earlier:  in space.

But can you do it with reverb?  It's more effective with reverb.

 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

Discussions on fuel capacity are meaningless when talking about thermonuclear reaction engines in an atmosphere. 

Not necessarily meaningless, mind you... your logistical support just needs to worry about refueling once every other fortnight, not once after every hour-long sortie.

(Available data for the VF-1 Valkyrie in atmosphere puts its continuous operating time at 29 days 4 hours on a full fuel load, and somewhere between 6 1/2 and 10 minutes in space at full thrust.)

Still, given the sizes concerned here (and now that I'm home and can compare like to like, I've got two models in the same scale to look at) it seems a safe bet that you could fit the entire engine nacelle + conformal tank from the VF-1 into the nacelle of the Sv-51 and have room left over.

[SMS007]

37 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It hasn't happened often, but the Macross universe has at least been consistent about treating new aircraft derived from existing aircraft directly with wild number jumps like that.  The jumbo-ized VF-1 Valkyrie got designated VF-3000 despite technically being a contemporary of the VF-4.

 

Galaxy Fleet did it backwards, though... their fighter was a production aircraft, but because they never disclosed the existence of the production spec to the New UN Government it's officially considered to still be a YF even though it's mass-produced.

Ughhhh. I still hate it, though. If the Macross 7 VF-17 model had been directly adapted into a CG model for Macross Frontier, my sense of order would be so much happier.

 

How about after the end of the Vajra War, though? I can't swear to it, but I want to say that among the many fighters Hávamál fielded in Macross 30 included VF-27s. And all the loading screens in Macross 30 label Brera and May's fighters as "VF-27".

[Seto Kaiba]

34 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Ughhhh. I still hate it, though. If the Macross 7 VF-17 model had been directly adapted into a CG model for Macross Frontier, my sense of order would be so much happier.

No such luck, I'm afraid... it would've even made more sense if they'd pulled a Super Hornet and called it, say, the VF-17E/F or some such designation along those lines.  I actually like it a bit better than the regular VF-17.  (Unfortunately the speculated real-world designation for the F-117 is already taken, it was believed the Nighthawk would be F-19 initially.)

 

34 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

How about after the end of the Vajra War, though? I can't swear to it, but I want to say that among the many fighters Hávamál fielded in Macross 30 included VF-27s. And all the loading screens in Macross 30 label Brera and May's fighters as "VF-27".

To be frank, that the VF-27 is still officially considered YF-27 by the New UN Government in 2059 is one of those tidbits that starts with "technically [...]".  All the artbooks, magazine articles, model kits, toys, etc. call it the VF-27 anyway, and so do the titles which are set after Macross Frontier, like Mei Leeron's VF-27 in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy or the VF-27 owned by the head of Zelgar Heavy Industries in Macross E.

(It's possible that General Galaxy, via Macross Galaxy, was forced to come clean with the spec after the VF-27's existence became public knowledge, and probably suffered some kind of sanctions or penalty for concealing it like that.)

[Valkyrie Driver]

Does the VF-27 have any other users besides the Galaxy fleet?

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Valkyrie Driver said:

Does the VF-27 have any other users besides the Galaxy fleet?

Government users?  None that we know of.

Several VF-27s are known to have ended up in the hands of private users, though.  In Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, Uroboros Hunters Guild administrator Mei Leeron has a VF-27γ Lucifer as her personal VF in 2060.  In Macross E, Ivan Polyvanov (AKA Ivan Tsari) of Selgar Heavy Industries also has a private VF-27γ that he uses in opposition of Xaos's Tactical Sound Unit Thrones in 2062.

[SMS007]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Government users?  None that we know of.

Several VF-27s are known to have ended up in the hands of private users, though.  In Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, Uroboros Hunters Guild administrator Mei Leeron has a VF-27γ Lucifer as her personal VF in 2060.  In Macross E, Ivan Polyvanov (AKA Ivan Tsari) of Selgar Heavy Industries also has a private VF-27γ that he uses in opposition of Xaos's Tactical Sound Unit Thrones in 2062.

Actually, Hávamál does too.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

14 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Actually, Hávamál does too.

 

Whether or not that's actually canon is ambiguous, though... the only VF-27 user from the game that got confirmed in Macross Chronicle was Mei Leeron.  I'd have to check the novelization to see if they depict Havamal using VF-27s there too (I don't recall them doing so).

[Sildani]

Regardless: nice paint scheme! Blast, where’s Kurt when you need him?

Edited November 3, 2017 by Sildani

[SMS007]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Whether or not that's actually canon is ambiguous, though... the only VF-27 user from the game that got confirmed in Macross Chronicle was Mei Leeron.  I'd have to check the novelization to see if they depict Havamal using VF-27s there too (I don't recall them doing so).

Oh? What do these materials say Hávamál fields besides Rod's YF-29B?

2 hours ago, Sildani said:

Regardless: nice paint scheme! Blast, where’s Kurt when you need him?

I know, right? The VF-27 needs more love.

[Valkyrie Driver]

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

I know, right? The VF-27 needs more love.

I agree, it's a lovely bird. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

Oh? What do these materials say Hávamál fields besides Rod's YF-29B?

To be honest, they're infuriatingly vague on that score... it's only mentioned that Hávamál is a VF-X unit equipped with many state-of-the-art variable fighters, and that their aces are issued the YF-29B Percival.  The novelization of Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy skips most of the little encounters with Hávamál from the game (the ones that weren't really an actual part of the story) in favor of focusing on the various lackeys Hávamál uses to fight their battles by proxy... like how they basically blackmailed Shin, D.D., and Nora into helping them, secretly backed the bandits under self-proclaimed "Bandit King" Ganess Modora to use them as a proxy to attack Uroboros' New UN Forces and privateers, and used Sharon for the purpose of mind-controlling the crew of the SMS Macross Quarter and aces from Macross 7.  As in the game, the only Hávamál pilot who figures prominently in the story is Rod... and only at the beginning and the end, the fight where Reon has a YF-25 and the one after he gets the YF-30.