Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

In other words: everybody wants to rule the fleet? (cue Tears for Fears).

Well, not everybody... 

Spoiler

Narratively speaking, I'm trying to cut a dash between Mobile Suit Gundam's frequently used (abused) position that everybody in the conflict is at least partly in the wrong and the Macross position that the antagonists aren't really evil, just misguided, desperate, or using the wrong methods to do what they see as the right thing.

Only the pacifist Glass administration and the pro-rearmament Neo Zentran movement are interested in actually ruling the fleet directly.  Everyone else involved is trying to stir the pot with their own goals in mind, whether that end is maintaining the fleet's trade imbalance to preserve their own precarious economy, creating an easily-controlled client state as a junior partner in a government power bloc, or trying to develop a thriving market for their arms exports or security services.

 

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I've seen some designs out there, but not to the extent you describe.

I've been doing the GM thing in my own RPG sessions, playing in others RPG sessions, and as staff on a Macross MUSH for a long time... and oh boy could I tell you stories about the kind of garbage I've seen.  So many players who want a custom VF for themselves in game want the kind of swaggering, completely over-the-top invincibility that's normally found among the titular mecha in a Gundam storyline.  I've often spoken about how disappointed one of my friends was when I told him bringing an accurately-statted Legioss (RT: Alpha) from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA into the Macross setting was a suicidal idea, but most of the ones I've seen have been more on the Wing Gundam Zero side of the scale.  I recall a player on the Macross MUSH I was on submitted a request for a custom VF for his character which entailed his character gaining mentat abilities (yes, from Dune), performance that exceeded most 5th Gen VFs in a setting where the 4th Gen VFs were still new, and combat capabilities somewhere around the Wing Gundam Zero's level of blithe invincibility and overwhelming firepower.  (Oh, and in Camille Bidan fashion he wanted to be its designer in-universe too, and keep all the specs in his mind so it could never ever be duplicated or reverse-engineered.)

The other GMs and I just sort of stared at the application form for that one in quiet disgust, and resolved to bury that sucker like evidence of a dreadful crime.

 

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

That's one thing that bothered me about the 17; the other fighters could do more, but the 17 seemed to me to be stuck in "long range attack". After using one in several instances where we ended up in dogfights (and regretting it), I wished for a better one that was stealth and couldn't find one.

That would've been back before they brought up the subject of active stealth technology and how it makes the VF-19 and VF-22 more stealthy than the VF-17 even with bombs and missiles hung on their wings.

 

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Understood; admittedly, it began to sound dumb to me after a few years, but by then I called it that for so long that it became synonymous with the mech in my mind. If it ever came to it though, I could probably shorten it to "Wraith" (pretty sure that name's not taken, at least last time I looked), which would also fit.

Names associated with the unquiet dead are usually associated with unmanned fighters in Macross... the Ghost being the obvious one, though one of the non-official setting game series had one called the Phantom as well.  The QF-5100D Goblin II kind of breaks the pattern a bit tho.

 

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Right; I didn't want to get ridiculous on that, as it's too easy to overpower a mech with built-in "Itano Circuses". Also, the legs were already carrying quite a bit, to the point I had to relocate the gunpod. On the back of WV's leg, the engine housing bulks up a bit as it heads towards the tail. That stores much of the short range missiles, with 1-2 in the side launch pod "at ready" (may need to rework that if missiles would be too large):

We've kind of reached that point in-universe though... the YF-29 had 100 internally-carried missiles, and most Super Packs now have several hundred.

 

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:Yeah; I liked those concepts and decided to run with them. Why fix what isn't broken, right?

 

To be honest, I don't remember why I called them "arm bayonets", since they're conformal blades built into the arm housing (silver edge on the arm housing at wrist and elbow, you can just barely make it out due to age). Their original function was to provide a "last resort" melee weapon that didn't need ammo or power that could be used when all else was gone:

Ah, the "blade below the shoulder" kind of thing?

 

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:Yeah; I liked those concepts and decided to run with them. Why fix what isn't broken, right?

Seto, I really appreciate you taking a look at this for me, and the kindness of your comments in doing so. One thing this project did serve to teach me was to not criticize mech designs too hastily, as the designers often have challenges they need to overcome, and concessions do have to be made (especially with transforming designs!). It's not easy designing something meant for combat, and what can look "cool" may not work or get someone into a jam the designer never anticipated!

 

Thank you.

Eh, no worries... one thing I know about artists and model builders and musicians and so on is y'all are your own harshest critics.  Designing a transforming mecha is HARD, even for professional artists.  

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I've been doing the GM thing in my own RPG sessions, playing in others RPG sessions, and as staff on a Macross MUSH for a long time... and oh boy could I tell you stories about the kind of garbage I've seen.  So many players who want a custom VF for themselves in game want the kind of swaggering, completely over-the-top invincibility that's normally found among the titular mecha in a Gundam storyline.  I've often spoken about how disappointed one of my friends was when I told him bringing an accurately-statted Legioss (RT: Alpha) from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA into the Macross setting was a suicidal idea, but most of the ones I've seen have been more on the Wing Gundam Zero side of the scale.  I recall a player on the Macross MUSH I was on submitted a request for a custom VF for his character which entailed his character gaining mentat abilities (yes, from Dune), performance that exceeded most 5th Gen VFs in a setting where the 4th Gen VFs were still new, and combat capabilities somewhere around the Wing Gundam Zero's level of blithe invincibility and overwhelming firepower.  (Oh, and in Camille Bidan fashion he wanted to be its designer in-universe too, and keep all the specs in his mind so it could never ever be duplicated or reverse-engineered.)

The other GMs and I just sort of stared at the application form for that one in quiet disgust, and resolved to bury that sucker like evidence of a dreadful crime.

Good grief! lol

Personally, I'd rather see an awesome character in an "okay" mech than an omnipotent mech with a "bleh" character. We had one guy in our campaign who wanted to paint his VF-11 black and then paint stars on it! He called it "star camo".

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That would've been back before they brought up the subject of active stealth technology and how it makes the VF-19 and VF-22 more stealthy than the VF-17 even with bombs and missiles hung on their wings.

Yeah; he one advantage the 17 has is that its' stealth is a feature; it only dies when the mech is destroyed (according to stats IIRC); the 19 and 22 lose theirs after 50 percent MDC is lost.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Names associated with the unquiet dead are usually associated with unmanned fighters in Macross... the Ghost being the obvious one, though one of the non-official setting game series had one called the Phantom as well.  The QF-5100D Goblin II kind of breaks the pattern a bit tho.

Hmm...never noticed that in Macross. A worse name would have been "Shouldn't have eaten that pastrami grinder last night!" (that would give me nightmares! )

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We've kind of reached that point in-universe though... the YF-29 had 100 internally-carried missiles, and most Super Packs now have several hundred.

Yeah... sigh. I consider for the Wraithverge to keep some semblance of "honest" in game and in our universe, to keep the payload reasonable and able to fit within the frame, hidden by the outer stealth layers.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ah, the "blade below the shoulder" kind of thing?

Yeah, like the Gilgamesh armor of Macross II (if that's what you mean); in fact, it now that I think of it, I developed it in part to counter those blades being used by that suit.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh, no worries... one thing I know about artists and model builders and musicians and so on is y'all are your own harshest critics.  Designing a transforming mecha is HARD, even for professional artists.  

Thanks; we do indeed, because we tend to see the flaws the most and not notice what's good about the work!

And yeah: it really is hard to design them! I literally broke 8 swing armatures for the leg to body connector by simply transforming the thing!!!

(not all at once though! lol )

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Good grief! lol

Personally, I'd rather see an awesome character in an "okay" mech than an omnipotent mech with a "bleh" character.

SAME.  This is one of the reasons I'm not a bigger fan of Gundam, TBH... entirely too much of that franchise falls into the category of "bleh characters in omnipotent mecha".  It takes all the drama out of a fight if the main character's mecha can tank entire magazines of anti-mecha machine gun fire while the enemy mecha explode if anyone so much as coughs in their immediate vicinity.  New Mobile Report Gundam Wing was probably the worst offender, with Leos seemingly exploding out of pity even if Heero missed them with his big beam rifle by a clear 50 yards.

Fortunately, my regular gaming group are a pretty laid-back group who are more interested in interesting roleplay and an enjoyable game session than powergaming or any kind of coolness one-upmanship.  Some of the other gaming groups I've been involved with haven't been so fortunate.  That Macross MUSH I was on lost about 3/4 of its playerbase after a sysadmin decided his character was The Main Character and went full Mary Sue in a way that had practically everyone rolling their eyes.

Spoiler

It started with him granting his own character multiple promotions for tissue paper thin reasons, then he decided his character was half-Protodeviln in defiance of his character sheet (it's not even clear if the Protodeviln can reproduce, given that they're artificial lifeforms meant for warfare only), then he seemed to get a bit mixed up about what a Protodeviln actually was and it all started bearing a distinct resemblance to Dragon Ball Z's Super Saiyans... which ended with him having his own character court-martialed and sentenced to... more promotions, more authority, fame, top ace status, and a Char Aznable-style official "One Man Army" title.  At that point, there was a mass-mutiny among the membership and we all quit.  Since all the decent writers left, last I heard the emigrant fleet in question was now at war with a race of NPC furries.

 

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

We had one guy in our campaign who wanted to paint his VF-11 black and then paint stars on it! He called it "star camo".

Realistically speaking, there's nothing at all stopping a space fighter from being as garishly painted as its pilot desires... because space isn't as well lit as sci-fi would have us believe... clown car paint is just as stealthy in space as matte black.  So it's totally realistic for VFs to be painted like they're headed to an airshow in the course of normal duty.

 

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah; he one advantage the 17 has is that its' stealth is a feature; it only dies when the mech is destroyed (according to stats IIRC); the 19 and 22 lose theirs after 50 percent MDC is lost.

Macross Chronicle did establish that the VF-17 also has an active stealth system, but it's a generation older than the state of the art 3rd Generation active stealth systems developed for use on the VF-19 and VF-22.  The VF-17 went for passive stealth to complement its active stealth system because 2nd Generation active stealth was less effective at concealing a VF at short ranges or from powerful radar systems.  Every little bit helps, y'know?  The VF-19A/B/C/D and VF-22 were also designed around passive stealth and support that with an advanced 3rd Generation active stealth system that can make them virtually invisible to older model radars even at short ranges as seen in Macross Plus.

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

 Hmm...never noticed that in Macross. A worse name would have been "Shouldn't have eaten that pastrami grinder last night!" (that would give me nightmares! )

Yeah... sigh. I consider for the Wraithverge to keep some semblance of "honest" in game and in our universe, to keep the payload reasonable and able to fit within the frame, hidden by the outer stealth layers.

It definitely isn't far outside what'd be considered normal specs-wise for a 3.5th Generation or 4th Generation VF.

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah, like the Gilgamesh armor of Macross II (if that's what you mean); in fact, it now that I think of it, I developed it in part to counter those blades being used by that suit.

Ah, I see.  Yeah, there wouldn't really be much in the way of counters for the Gigamesh's high-speed combat claws on a typical VF would there?

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks; we do indeed, because we tend to see the flaws the most and not notice what's good about the work!

And yeah: it really is hard to design them! I literally broke 8 swing armatures for the leg to body connector by simply transforming the thing!!!

(not all at once though! lol )

Look at it this way, nothing you've designed has caught fire or had part of it explode.

I cannot make the same boast. 

(Government projects and high voltages, y'know...)

[Sanity is Optional]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

SAME.  This is one of the reasons I'm not a bigger fan of Gundam, TBH... entirely too much of that franchise falls into the category of "bleh characters in omnipotent mecha".  It takes all the drama out of a fight if the main character's mecha can tank entire magazines of anti-mecha machine gun fire while the enemy mecha explode if anyone so much as coughs in their immediate vicinity.  New Mobile Report Gundam Wing was probably the worst offender, with Leos seemingly exploding out of pity even if Heero missed them with his big beam rifle by a clear 50 yards.

This is why I much prefer 08th MS team, and to a lesser extent Iron Blooded Orphans and Thunderbolt. The enemies aren't just mooks, and the main cast gets their s#!t kicked in on occasion.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Sanity is Optional said:

This is why I much prefer 08th MS team, and to a lesser extent Iron Blooded Orphans and Thunderbolt. The enemies aren't just mooks, and the main cast gets their s#!t kicked in on occasion.

Exactly: stories need to show failures, goofs, and times when the characters' own actions bring about unintended consequences. Not to mention: if the enemies are just that incompetent, then "mass numbers" is only going to get them so far. You need at least some competency, or they'd never let those guys near a galley or mess, let alone a Mobile Suit.

In that vein, our campaign  was much the same way: all of us players at one time or another made some brutal mistakes. One example is that my character got another pilot that he was dating killed when a combat maneuver he pulled didn't work (I failed my piloting role with a natural "1" on the 20-sided die), and she saved him by putting herself between him and about 60+ missiles headed his way. The outcome of that was that it showed him up close the consequences of split-second decisions, and that in war, people die due to your decisions. He went on to command a special forces unit for the fleet (six fighters including himself) and investigate and bust the conspiracy on Earth.

After getting your head handed to you enough, you either get good by eventually finding a way to overcome,  or inevitably,  get dead because your number finally came up. And if that never happens, if characters never learn and grow (Imagine if Hikaru never grew beyond his first appearance in Macross when he came to the SDF-1's launch?), then all it becomes is an animated video game (or a paper one if doing an RPG face-to-face).

And even video games now have moved past that to some degree.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Sanity is Optional said:

This is why I much prefer 08th MS team, and to a lesser extent Iron Blooded Orphans and Thunderbolt. The enemies aren't just mooks, and the main cast gets their s#!t kicked in on occasion.

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Exactly: stories need to show failures, goofs, and times when the characters' own actions bring about unintended consequences. Not to mention: if the enemies are just that incompetent, then "mass numbers" is only going to get them so far. You need at least some competency, or they'd never let those guys near a galley or mess, let alone a Mobile Suit.

That, IMO, is one of the things that makes Hikaru easier for the average viewer to relate to than Roy, Isamu, Basara, or even Alto...

Not only is our boy Hikaru completely clueless when it comes to girls, he's not The Best or The Ace.  He's a talented but otherwise normal guy out there doing his best, and he does occasionally get completely REKT for his efforts.  He's also not really given much in the way of special treatment, except plausible stuff like getting a leg up in training because he is already a highly trained stunt pilot, and he flies the same VF that the rank-and-file grunts do (more or less).  I know it's not as action figure-friendly, but I really dislike the way most protagonists in Macross after Macross II have essentially been flying Ace Customs in spirit if not in actual practice. 

One of the things I've really enjoyed about some of the video games, manga, and homebrew RPG materials is there's a lot more attention given to those neglected main VFs that are not getting their due in the animation.  The VF-11 finally became a main character's main mecha in 20-freaking-12 and the Macross Delta prequels actually gave us a proper look at a VF-171 squadron.

 

[jvmacross]

@Seto Kaiba

I figure you would have an answer to this question.....has there ever been any information that implies a difference in the head unit on the VF-1S between the TV and DYRL versions?  I have always thought it was the same and have never seen it brought up as one of the few differences between the two incarnations during past discussions on the topic of differences between DYRL and TV VF-1's....

However, it now seems that Bandai, via their upcoming DX VF-1S "TV" Roy, may be retconning a difference....really?  Personally, if there is any difference, it is caused by the medium in which it is being presented...one being a TV animated series....the other being a high quality theatrical presentation........the lineart, however, for the VF-1S is the same, in particular for the -1S head unit...so can you shed some possible light into this?......Is Bandai actually delivering on something that no other toy and/or kit company has done before...or is it simply a Macross the First style retcon?  I am hoping that the Tamashii Special page for the DX VF-1S Roy may actually have something from Kawamori about the change.....although he is also the same guy who says there is no real Macross canon....so I guess everything is possible...

Edited June 26, 2020 by jvmacross

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

@Seto Kaiba

I figure you would have an answer to this question.....has there ever been any information that implies a difference in the head unit on the VF-1S between the TV and DYRL versions?  I have always thought it was the same and have never seen it brought up as one of the few differences between the two incarnations during past discussions on the topic of differences between DYRL and TV VF-1's....

As far as I am aware, there are none... the line art for the VF-1's S-type monitor turret is exactly the same in both Macross Perfect Memory and the Macross: Do You Remember Love? Data Bank book.  And I mean EXACTLY the same, as in "it's literally the same art reprinted".

 

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

However, it now seems that Bandai, via their upcoming DX VF-1S "TV" Roy, may be retconning a difference....really?  Personally, if there is any difference, it is caused by the medium in which it is being presented...one being a TV animated series....the other being a high quality theatrical presentation........the lineart, however, for the VF-1S is the same, in particular for the -1S head unit...so can you shed some possible light into this?......Is Bandai actually delivering on something that no other toy and/or kit company has done before...or is it simply a Macross the First style retcon?  I am hoping that the Tamashii Special page for the DX VF-1S Roy may actually have something from Kawamori about the change.....although he is also the same guy who says there is no real Macross canon....so I guess everything is possible...

Can you offer more detail about what they claim to be doing?  I am not a toy collector by any stretch of the imagination.

[jvmacross]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As far as I am aware, there are none... the line art for the VF-1's S-type monitor turret is exactly the same in both Macross Perfect Memory and the Macross: Do You Remember Love? Data Bank book.  And I mean EXACTLY the same, as in "it's literally the same art reprinted".

 

Can you offer more detail about what they claim to be doing?  I am not a toy collector by any stretch of the imagination.

https://tamashii.jp/special/macross/vf-1s_RFS/

I have not read what is posted on the special DX VF-1S site, so perhaps this "change" is explained beyond the "it looks different to us" rationale....

[sketchley]

Near as I can tell, the "face" differs in three places:  ① chin line, ② visor shape, and ③ temples.  In all three, it looks like the one in Hikaru's colours is more square and with sharper angles (esp. chin/jaw), and the one in Fokker's colours is rounder with softer angles (or curves).

As Seito has said, there is no difference in the line art.  However, there is a difference in the quality of the animation.  Maybe they're just reproducing the differences from that?

[jvmacross]

7 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

https://tamashii.jp/special/macross/vf-1s_RFS/

I have not read what is posted on the special DX VF-1S site, so perhaps this "change" is explained beyond the "it looks different to us" rationale....

@Seto Kaiba....ok, there wasn't much info in the new site for the DX VF-1S, mainly just a quick announcement....and it mostly covered the change to the stand and, of course, the head change....so for now...there is no mention of lineart or any info claiming that Kawamori designed the DYRL to be any different than the TV version....it just states that the new head is a new "interpretation" and that the neck is also new....

Hopefully, this is not just another instance of Bandai changing things just for the sake of changing them.....this mostly happens with color selections that do not match what is seen onscreen...it could also be a Tenjin tweak...he did that with the pilot name scripts on these DX VF-1's, which look awful in my opinion...prefer the more traditional stencil or plain bold printed fonts used on past toy releases and on the actual show.....

[jvmacross]

18 minutes ago, sketchley said:

However, there is a difference in the quality of the animation.  Maybe they're just reproducing the differences from that?

Yes, that is what I brought up before.  The site actually seems to imply the change is merely an "interpretation" of the difference in looks between the TV and DYRL head units.

Again, that could be written off as animation "style" differences.

There is some precedence, as Arcadia also went out of there way to release a VF-1S "Roy Focker Special Movie Version" and then proceed to mold it in bright white plastic (well maybe pinkish white )...so implying "Animated Movie" Version........before "off-white" indicated DYRL VF-1....

 

I suppose it is ultimately all a ploy to make collectors buy yet another VF-1S Roy Focker....for me it is useless to resist the collector siren call.....

Edited June 26, 2020 by jvmacross

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, jvmacross said:

https://tamashii.jp/special/macross/vf-1s_RFS/

I have not read what is posted on the special DX VF-1S site, so perhaps this "change" is explained beyond the "it looks different to us" rationale....

The official website doesn't offer much more detail than that... they just mention that they've made a new head mold based on a new interpretation of the design that differs from the one they did for the movie version.

 

2 hours ago, sketchley said:

Near as I can tell, the "face" differs in three places:  ① chin line, ② visor shape, and ③ temples.  In all three, it looks like the one in Hikaru's colours is more square and with sharper angles (esp. chin/jaw), and the one in Fokker's colours is rounder with softer angles (or curves).

As Seito has said, there is no difference in the line art.  However, there is a difference in the quality of the animation.  Maybe they're just reproducing the differences from that?

Must be... 

 

2 hours ago, jvmacross said:

Hopefully, this is not just another instance of Bandai changing things just for the sake of changing them.....this mostly happens with color selections that do not match what is seen onscreen...it could also be a Tenjin tweak...he did that with the pilot name scripts on these DX VF-1's, which look awful in my opinion...prefer the more traditional stencil or plain bold printed fonts used on past toy releases and on the actual show.....

This does appear to be basically that... Bandai changing things simply for the sake of changing them, since the VF-1S's head is supposed to be exactly the same.

[jvmacross]

Well, here is what I am thinking may support the idea that the VF-1S was actually different all this time.....

As you know, the VF-1A head is the only one that was undeniably different between the TV and DYRL version.....however, is there anything out there that may provide clues as to why Kawamori did this?  What if Kawamori actually wanted to switch up all of the VF-1 heads for the DYRL film but just couldn't come up with something for each or ran out of time?

Another bit that may support this is the fact that the last 2 remaining head variants that did not get a makeover (if you accept that the VF-1S was already "different" in DYRL, just as the VF-1A) since their TV appearances were the VF-1J and the VF-1D...but that was finally accomplished with their makeovers in the Macross the First manga.  So that would mean that all VF-1 heads have now been tweaked from their original "TV" versions...

Again, Kawamori has made it so that there is no way of really knowing which is the "in-universe" correct VF-1 head unit...making it an ideal way for the likes of Bandai to keep pumping out new "versions" in the future.....this is Lucas-level type of marketing genius

Sadly, Bandai opted to go with a dedicated "TV" release for their ROY-1S, instead of just packaging the dang "TV and DYRL" heads in one box.....they were gracious enough to do just that with the HMR VF-1A release....but I suppose the larger 1/48 size means they can tampo TV and DYRL specific markings......so getting more detail now just means you have to pay twice for more or less the same figure

Edited June 26, 2020 by jvmacross

[jeniusornome]

I thought "in universe", since DYRL was filmed in like 2030, all the VFs in it were supposedly later-built VF-1s. So if you want an in-universe explanation for the differences in the design between the TV and movie, assume that over the ~8 years they were being built they made a few tweaks to them for the same reasons that tweaks get made to real life production aircraft - suppliers change, someone upgrades some avionics, they ran out of material towards the end of the war so they had to make the head a little thinner, etc.

Alternately, maybe the production crew of DYRL had to restore a bunch of old busted VF-1s for the movie and they didn't get it quite right.

Far as real life is concerned, I read that as it being the same reason there are TV-style hands and DYRL style hands. One looks a little softer and rounded and more cartoony, the other is more edgy and detailed because it had a better animation budget. And Bandai did it to sell more.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

As you know, the VF-1A head is the only one that was undeniably different between the TV and DYRL version.....however, is there anything out there that may provide clues as to why Kawamori did this?  What if Kawamori actually wanted to switch up all of the VF-1 heads for the DYRL film but just couldn't come up with something for each or ran out of time?

Offhand, I don't recall Kawamori ever giving a specific reason for modifying the VF-1A's monitor turret design for the movie... but I'd assume he wanted to make it somewhat more visually impressive-looking since it was going to be (however temporarily) a main character mecha.  The TV version VF-1A head is kind of flat and undetailed looking.  The far more angular movie version looks a lot more impressive and dynamic.  There was no need to mess with the VF-1D head since it wasn't appearing in the film (replaced by the VT-1), and both the VF-1J and the VF-1S already had that certain je ne sais quoi that makes them stand out as main character mecha even though the J was only getting a glorified cameo.  I suspect the VF-1A head was the only one he set out to retool.

 

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Another bit that may support this is the fact that the last 2 remaining head variants that did not get a makeover (if you accept that the VF-1S was already "different" in DYRL, just as the VF-1A) since their TV appearances were the VF-1J and the VF-1D...but that was finally accomplished with their makeovers in the Macross the First manga.  So that would mean that all VF-1 heads have now been tweaked from their original "TV" versions...

But only one of those was done by Kawamori... he made some slight tweaks to the J-type head to modernize the design for Macross the First.  The D-type head design was done by Hidetaka.  Macross the First is its own alternate take though, and the revamped designs haven't been seen outside of it.  Even Macross Delta, which was made well after Macross the First, uses an unmodified TV series VF-1J head.  Since Macross the First is cancelled (again), I doubt we'll see any more of those designs.

 

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Again, Kawamori has made it so that there is no way of really knowing which is the "in-universe" correct VF-1 head unit...making it an ideal way for the likes of Bandai to keep pumping out new "versions" in the future.....this is Lucas-level type of marketing genius

Personally, I think you're jumping to conclusions here and making a lot of unfounded assumptions of intent by the notoriously airy-fairy Kawamori-sensei who hates being pinned down to anything.

Bandai would keep pumping out new versions every few years no matter what happened... they're Bandai, it's what they do.

As to there being no way of knowing what head is correct... that's not correct.  Excluding the VF-1A, there's only one official monitor turret design for any given variant.  The VF-1A's two monitor turret designs are BOTH correct, given that the TV version officially corresponds to VF-1A's from Blocks 1-5 and the DYRL? version to Blocks 6 and later.  They gave that explanation way back in Variable Fighter's Aero Report.  

 

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Sadly, Bandai opted to go with a dedicated "TV" release for their ROY-1S, instead of just packaging the dang "TV and DYRL" heads in one box.....they were gracious enough to do just that with the HMR VF-1A release....but I suppose the larger 1/48 size means they can tampo TV and DYRL specific markings......so getting more detail now just means you have to pay twice for more or less the same figure

... as Gavil might have said under the circumstances, "The Beauty of Marketing to Collectors".

They've got you lot over a barrel and they freaking know it.

 

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

I thought "in universe", since DYRL was filmed in like 2030, all the VFs in it were supposedly later-built VF-1s.

Yup... though there's a fun little asterisk there in that the "Movie-type" VF-1 was actually in service before the end of the First Space War.

The TV version of the VF-1 is representative of the VF-1's first few production blocks (1-5), and the Movie version of the entire rest of the VF-1's production run (Block 6 and up).  The SDF-1 Macross's VF-1s were mainly Block 4 and 5 aircraft, but there are a few sources (like This is Animation: Macross Plus) that put Block 6 VF-1s in operation not long after the First Space War began.  It mentions a UN Spacy Marine Corps training squadron - SVMAT-102 - was equipped with the Block 6 VT-1 Super Ostrich and began a three month assignment to ARMD-04 Clemenceau in October 2009 (around the time the Macross reached Mars in episode 7).  

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

So if you want an in-universe explanation for the differences in the design between the TV and movie, assume that over the ~8 years they were being built they made a few tweaks to them for the same reasons that tweaks get made to real life production aircraft - suppliers change, someone upgrades some avionics, they ran out of material towards the end of the war so they had to make the head a little thinner, etc.

Yes, that's what the production block numbers denote... minor variations in hardware, software, and feature support made while a particular model or variant of aircraft is still in mass production that wouldn't, on their own, be enough to constitute a new variant.  New aircraft are built to that updated standard, and older models are updated to it as resources and time permit.  You may have heard in the news about the US Navy's recent delivery of the new F/A-18E/F Block III Super Hornets, and plans to update all the old Block II's to Block III level.

The last TV version production block was Block 5, and the first Movie version production block was Block 6.

Variable Fighter Master File, though not official setting material, follows this line religiously and asserts that Block 8 was the current standard in production when the Zentradi wiped out everything on Earth's surface.

The reason given for the VF-1A's monitor turret design changing was an update/improvement/refinement in the design of the sensor cluster that went hand-in-hand with the various avionics improvements for operations in space that were also part of Block 6.

[jvmacross]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... as Gavil might have said under the circumstances, "The Beauty of Marketing to Collectors".

They've got you lot over a barrel and they freaking know it.

 

By "you" I assume that includes "book" collectors?  Or are you not getting the "Roy Focker Special" Masterfiles? 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

By "you" I assume that includes "book" collectors?  Or are you not getting the "Roy Focker Special" Masterfiles? 

Oh ho!  Maybe the comic book collectors.

Collecting the larger publications is comparatively easy since publishers can't get away with just changing the cover a bit and re-sell the same book as a new product the way that toy companies can redeco an existing mold and call it an all-new product.  They have to actually come up with new content or people won't buy their book.

For the record, I have two personal-use copies of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1S Roy Focker Special on order... one for my own use, and one for scanning and archival.  Same as all the other volumes.  

We know the Master File for the "Roy Focker Special" isn't going to be a reprint of an older book.  It's gonna be something akin to the Master Archive Mobile Suit: MSV Ace Pilot Log book that was done for Gundam, talking about the career of a particular ace pilot more than the actual mecha.  Though, admittedly, even I wish they'd put their energy into a volume about something other than the VF-1.  There are enough VF-19s floating around to do a VF-19 Vol.2, or maybe a VF-31 Vol.2 that actually talks about the production VF-31.  Or a book for the VF-17 and VF-171.  Or, shock, maybe a book about the SV-51 or Sv-262, or the SV Works in general.

I don't expect anything great or particularly interesting from the Roy Focker Special book.  Likely a lot of fuss and noise about the VF-0S, VF-X-1, VF-1A-1, and VF-1S-4, with some side notes about the F203 and probably F-14A+ to go along with a general biography of Roy and probably a featurette about the other units who drew inspiration from the SVF-1 Skulls like Max and Milia's Dancing Skulls, Ozma Lee's SMS Skull Platoon, etc.

[pengbuzz]

The only thing I can see is the TV head looks a little rounder and the visor looks slightly narrower.

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For the record, I have two personal-use copies of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1S Roy Focker Special on order... one for my own use, and one for scanning and archival.  Same as all the other volumes.  

Dude....you are one book short of following the collector's code....one to open, one to keep mint and one for "just in case".....you say you are not a toy collector, but you definitely carry the gene defect without even knowing it! LOL

 

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Dude....you are one book short of following the collector's code....one to open, one to keep mint and one for "just in case".....you say you are not a toy collector, but you definitely carry the gene defect without even knowing it! LOL

 

Nah his second is cause he has to tear it up to scan it for his terribly mysterious website, lol. Pretty sure he doesn't have any unopened.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Nah his second is cause he has to tear it up to scan it for his terribly mysterious website, lol. Pretty sure he doesn't have any unopened.

Bingo.

There are books I have more than two of... but that's mostly because they're old enough that finding a pristine copy for scanning is difficult or if I screw up and accidentally win multiple copies on YJA.

Incidentally, the terribly mysterious website's servers are up but haven't been populated with webpages yet... so I can at least say the project's official name is Macross Historica.  

Edited June 27, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Bingo.

There are books I have more than two of... but that's mostly because they're old enough that finding a pristine copy for scanning is difficult or if I screw up and accidentally win multiple copies on YJA.

Incidentally, the terribly mysterious website's servers are up but haven't been populated with webpages yet... so I can at least say the project's official name is Macross Historica.  

*sits in waiting room*

My interest was peaked, and you have kept it at a steady high good sir.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

*sits in waiting room*

My interest was peaked, and you have kept it at a steady high good sir.

Don't get too excited, we're still months away from launching... getting absolutely destroyed at work thanks to furloughs and temporary headcount reductions brought on by the whole lockdown thing.  I can't even interview replacements because of the extreme restrictions on access to our facilities now. 

At the very least, I'm fairly confident there won't be anything too attention-grabbing in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1S Roy Focker Special that'll distract my group from working on Masahiro Chiba's original Sky Angels doujinshi.  If it's anything like Master Archive Mobile Suit: MSV Ace Pilot Log it'll be mostly biographical info on Roy's military service.

The Sky Angels book has been a really fascinating look into Macross's earliest lore.  I especially enjoyed the foreword, which is presented as an excerpt from another fictional book by the title Valkyrie in the Blue Sky by an author M. L. Gadjet (sic) that talks about the first flight of the initial VF-1 prototype.  That prototype, called VFX-FP-1, was a converted F-14 that was outfitted with the QF-3000's FF-1999 thermonuclear reaction turbine engine.  It took off from the Rogers Dry Lake at Edwards Air Force Base for a 70 minute test flight a bit 12:30 on September 21st, 2006.  Master File borrowed a fair bit of that, especially the use of the FF-1999 for early testing like it did with the VF-0-NF.

[Master Dex]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Don't get too excited, we're still months away from launching... getting absolutely destroyed at work thanks to furloughs and temporary headcount reductions brought on by the whole lockdown thing.  I can't even interview replacements because of the extreme restrictions on access to our facilities now. 

Yeah no worries, lol. I definitely get it, nothing is standard right now. As an engineer myself I can certainly understand those challenges.

[twich]

So has it ever been explained why the thermonuclear reaction engines have the number scheme that they do? Like the FF-1999, know it comes before the FF-2001 of the VF-1, but why not FF-2000? The YF-19 has the FF-2200, but the YF-21 has the FF-2450B, which is hella more powerful than the FF-2450A that the VF-3000(?) had. The VF-3001OU812/FC2 is less powerful than the FF-2999 that is in the SV-262 Draken III. It kinda makes my head hurt a little, not a lot, just a little

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, twich said:

So has it ever been explained why the thermonuclear reaction engines have the number scheme that they do?

Nope.  We can make some reasonable inferences, but that's about it.

One detail that has remained mostly consistent is that model numbers ending in 99 are usually the initial model in a particular hardware generation.  For instance, the FF-1999 being the initial-type thermonuclear reaction turbine engine or the FF-2099 being the first thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine.  Presumably, if the pattern continues, the Sv-262's engine (model FF-2999) was the initial-type Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine.

Model numbers 1999-2098 seem to be 1st Gen engine designs, with 2099-2998 being 2nd Gen engine designs, and 2999+ being 3rd Gen.  There are a few aberrations, like the typo in Macross Chronicle that incorrectly gives the VF-11MAXL's engine number as FF-3600 and the VF-14 using model FF-2770 even though it was not a burst turbine model.  The same with the FF-2450 on the VF-3000.

 

Quote

Like the FF-1999, know it comes before the FF-2001 of the VF-1, but why not FF-2000?

Skipped design numbers usually mean a prototype that didn't pan out or a significant change in hardware prompting the start of a new design series.

 

Quote

The YF-19 has the FF-2200, but the YF-21 has the FF-2450B, which is hella more powerful than the FF-2450A that the VF-3000(?) had. The VF-3001OU812/FC2 is less powerful than the FF-2999 that is in the SV-262 Draken III. It kinda makes my head hurt a little, not a lot, just a little

I'd ignore the VF-3000 on that front, odds are they didn't notice they'd already used that number... because the VF-3000's engines are 1st Gen and the VF-22's are 2nd.

Higher number doesn't necessarily mean "more powerful" either... just (potentially) a later model.  /FC1 and /FC2 denote some kind of upgrade, but we're not sure specifically what since the FF-3001[A] is rated for 1,620kN, the FF-3001/FC1 is rated for 2,105kN, and the FF-3001/FC2 is rated for 2,110kN.  The Draken III's engines are FF-2999/FC2, so they're not the original FF-2999 spec.  The FF-3011 used by the VF-27 is individually less powerful than the FF-3001, but the VF-27 has four of them.

Engine tuning also affects its output power.  You'll notice the YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engines are rated for 2,110kN while the detuned version used by the VF-31 Siegfrieds is only putting out 1,875kN.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[twich]

So on the topic of engines, I am still trying to wrap my head around.....what is the magic number/barrier before a variable fighter can attain orbit unassisted? Now, I though it had been discussed that when the thrust to weight ratio is above 10:1, but some craft don’t fit with that, the VF-14 can, but has a less than 10:1 ratio, but the VF-4 has the thermonuclear reaction engines, the rocket nozzles and the ram/scram jets on the rear of the fuselage, now that seems like some serious thrust (6 engines) and take the VF-2SS with its 2 main engines and then the boosters on the back....4 engines, the VF-11 is in the same boat.....

is it a fuel thing? Having enough onboard fuel to be able to get into orbit, then maneuver under their own power?

what am I missing?

Twich

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, twich said:

So on the topic of engines, I am still trying to wrap my head around.....what is the magic number/barrier before a variable fighter can attain orbit unassisted? Now, I though it had been discussed that when the thrust to weight ratio is above 10:1, but some craft don’t fit with that, the VF-14 can, but has a less than 10:1 ratio, but the VF-4 has the thermonuclear reaction engines, the rocket nozzles and the ram/scram jets on the rear of the fuselage, now that seems like some serious thrust (6 engines) and take the VF-2SS with its 2 main engines and then the boosters on the back....4 engines, the VF-11 is in the same boat.....

is it a fuel thing? Having enough onboard fuel to be able to get into orbit, then maneuver under their own power?

what am I missing?

Twich

Short version: EVERY Variable Fighter can attain orbit unassisted.  However, the question shifts to "What is orbit?" and "What can they do after attaining orbit?"

With the VF-1, it is portrayed as reaching what amounts to LEO (Low Earth Orbit)—more likely what is now defined as a VLEO (Very Low Earth Orbit).  Thereafter, it only has enough fuel to get to a mothership and land.  The VF-1 requires an external launch booster to reach higher orbits (perhaps a medium to high LEO up to a low MEO [Medium Earth Orbit]).

The YF-19, on the other hand, can not only reach orbit (for the purposes of this discussion, let's define that as all of LEO and the lower part of MEO), AND is able to undertake combat operations—or, in the case of M+, undertake an almost day-long Fold to Earth, penetrate the orbital defences, and then battle in not one, but 2 dog fights.  (Note that VFs have basically unlimited range within an atmosphere, so only the YF-19's action in space count toward answering "What can it do after attaining orbit?")

Edited June 28, 2020 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, twich said:

So on the topic of engines, I am still trying to wrap my head around.....what is the magic number/barrier before a variable fighter can attain orbit unassisted?

So... that kind of depends on how you want to define "orbit".

Even the comparatively humble VF-1 Valkyrie can reach altitudes in excess of 100km - the nominal boundary of space - on an Earth-type planet.  It takes a lot of fuel to get up there, so it's often more economical to either have the VF ride to orbit aboard a ship or use a booster system to reach orbit without consuming any fuel from its internal tanks.

 

Quote

Now, I though it had been discussed that when the thrust to weight ratio is above 10:1, but some craft don’t fit with that, the VF-14 can, but has a less than 10:1 ratio, but the VF-4 has the thermonuclear reaction engines, the rocket nozzles and the ram/scram jets on the rear of the fuselage, now that seems like some serious thrust (6 engines) and take the VF-2SS with its 2 main engines and then the boosters on the back....4 engines, the VF-11 is in the same boat.....

It's not a thrust-to-weight ratio thing, it's more a question of how efficient the engine is and how much fuel the fighter carries.

As VFs got larger, the amount of fuel they were able to carry internally increased.  Likewise, as engine technology advanced the engines themselves got more efficient.

What ultimately made the process of launching a VF from a planet's surface into orbit under its own power economical enough to be done casually was the introduction of the 2nd Gen thermonuclear reaction engine technology: the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine.  They were a 4th Generation VF design feature, but some 3rd Generation VFs were outfitted with them like the VF-16 and VF-17D/S/T.

 

Quote

is it a fuel thing? Having enough onboard fuel to be able to get into orbit, then maneuver under their own power?

Partly... but it's more along the lines of a fuel efficiency thing.  Being able to reach orbit over an Earth-type planet while retaining enough fuel to usefully maneuver.

[twich]

What is the difference/what is the definition/what makes the burst turbine better than the first type of engine?

also, why are VF’s like the VF-2SS and VF-4 with multiple engines not given stats for their total thrust? We only hear about the main engines? I imagine the rockets/scramjet or whatever they are located on the back part of the VF-4 have got to have some significant thrust to them

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, twich said:

What is the difference/what is the definition/what makes the burst turbine better than the first type of engine?

Not sure!  We know it's a next-generation engine technology that incorporated improvements made in heat exchange technology that greatly improved fuel efficiency and output.  The specifics of what improved and how are unknown.  There may be a "non-canon" explanation buried in the Master File books.

 

3 hours ago, twich said:

also, why are VF’s like the VF-2SS and VF-4 with multiple engines not given stats for their total thrust? We only hear about the main engines? I imagine the rockets/scramjet or whatever they are located on the back part of the VF-4 have got to have some significant thrust to them

Another excellent question we don't really have an answer for.

Now, I have a theory about why the VF-4 does not list its other engine systems... but nothing more than circumstantial evidence to back it up.  The physical dimensions in the VF-4 stats prior to Macross Chronicle did not match the physical proportions of the aircraft.  I suspect that the specs we have were originally written for the VF-X-4, which didn't have ramjets and rocket boosters built into it the way the production VF-4 does.

Still, it's an odd omission in all cases... esp. since the VF-2SS Valkyrie II and VA-1SS Metal Siren are both four-engine VFs.  They have four thermonuclear reaction turbine engines... two main engines, and two "sub-engines".  We can at least guess in the Valkyrie II's case, since it supposedly had three times the engine output of the original Valkyrie and the engines that are listed are a bit over two times.

[twich]

It is a mystery, given that these craft have 4 or more engines, seems like they would be very powerful. Also, the gap between such VF’s would not seem so vast in consideration, as far as raw thrust power.

i find it interesting that all VF’s are trans atmospheric, but are just limited by their onboard fuel. 

good discussion, Thank You

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, twich said:

It is a mystery, given that these craft have 4 or more engines, seems like they would be very powerful. Also, the gap between such VF’s would not seem so vast in consideration, as far as raw thrust power.

Well, the VF-4's ramjets would only be an asset once it reaches a certain speed and altitude... and the rockets are going to have a very limited burn time before they run out of fuel.  The VF-1's Super Pack boosters only have enough fuel for 150 seconds at maximum output.

The VF-2SS's sub-engines are mainly to offset the extra mass of the Super Armed Pack, rather than to improve its performance.

 

1 hour ago, twich said:

i find it interesting that all VF’s are trans atmospheric, but are just limited by their onboard fuel. 

Excluding, of course, the VF-0 and SV-51... but not the thermonuclear reaction engine-equipped versions and later replicas.

 

[twich]

With the previous mention of the FF-1999 that was in the ghost unmanned fighter AND the VF-0 NF, what kind of thrust does the engine produce? Knowing the meager thrust that the conventional jet engine of the VF-0, anything has to be an improvement.

PS- IN the variable Fighter master file for the VF-0, does it mention what engine the revival version Of the VF-0 did they use? Does it make mention of it? Thanks!

Edited June 29, 2020 by twich