Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Sildani]

Mm. That’s about the way I’d see it going too. Isamu is as single-minded about flying the 19 as Basara is about singing. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Sildani

[JB0]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even a major achievement like having defeated the out-of-control AI Sharon Apple after it seized control of Earth's defenses was tainted by the fact that he stole a heavily armed top secret VF and a fold booster test article, destroyed part of a hangar complex at New Edwards Test Flight Center, incurred some pretty hefty expenses for the Eden NUNS chasing him in his stolen VF and trying to shoot him down, attacked and destroyed part of Earth's orbital defense network, and caused all kinds of property damage on Earth beforehand. 

Also the fact that he didn't actually set out to stop Sharon Apple, and everyone knew it. He set out to wreck the unveiling and official adoption of the Ghost X9. Presumably by blowing it up and embarrassing everyone talking up how much better than a manned fighter it would be.

His greatest skill, luck, dropped something really heroic to blow up into his path and saved his bacon.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

Also the fact that he didn't actually set out to stop Sharon Apple, and everyone knew it. He set out to wreck the unveiling and official adoption of the Ghost X9. Presumably by blowing it up and embarrassing everyone talking up how much better than a manned fighter it would be.

His greatest skill, luck, dropped something really heroic to blow up into his path and saved his bacon.

If you stop and think about what the consequences for Isamu's offenses likely was, he's basically Macross's Kou Uraki... saved from the firing squad by the government covering up the circumstances of the incident he played such a pivotal role in.

[JB0]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If you stop and think about what the consequences for Isamu's offenses likely was, he's basically Macross's Kou Uraki... saved from the firing squad by the government covering up the circumstances of the incident he played such a pivotal role in.

Yup. 

I firmly believe he is being 100% truthful when he says luck is one of his skills. He knows fortune smiles upon him, and does crazy things because of it.

...

What WAS the official government explanation for what he was doing there, anyways? Or did they just say "this guy saved you all from the crazy computer, please don't ask questions because he can't hear you over ths noise ALL THESE MEDALS MAKE!"

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, JB0 said:

What WAS the official government explanation for what he was doing there, anyways? Or did they just say "this guy saved you all from the crazy computer, please don't ask questions because he can't hear you over ths noise ALL THESE MEDALS MAKE!"

Y'know, I don't know... I don't recall them ever offering an explanation for what the military said to explain away the presence of the YF-19 and YF-21.

[pengbuzz]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Y'know, I don't know... I don't recall them ever offering an explanation for what the military said to explain away the presence of the YF-19 and YF-21.

I can imagine it was quite a mess. I can also imagine the classified meeting where ideas were tossed around as how exactly to explain all of this to the public.

And sorry if this sounds a little "out of it", but is the thing about Isamu being a "space trucker" and sinking his life savings into a VF official, or someone's head canon? I haven't read much of the official stuff too much past Macross 7 (the RPG campaign I was in is on an extended hiatus due to the GM having some life issues getting in the way), or liner notes or anything like that.

Edited June 21, 2020 by pengbuzz

[JB0]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I can imagine it was quite a mess. I can also imagine the classified meeting where ideas were tossed around as how exactly to explain all of this to the public.

And sorry if this sounds a little "out of it", but is the thing about Isamu being a "space trucker" and sinking his life savings into a VF official, or someone's head canon? I haven't read much of the official stuff too much past Macross 7 (the RPG campaign I was in is on an extended hiatus due to the GM having some life issues getting in the way), or liner notes or anything like that.

It is totally official.

He gave Neumann his entire UN Spacey retirement fund and his life savings to get a custom VF-19 that is close in configuration to the YF-19 he tested/saved the world with. Because no plane he's been in since has been even remotely as fun to fly.

This was after he tried and failed to buy an entire export-restricted VF-19 one piece at a time. He's lucky Neumann noticed before the UNS did.

I love Isamu.

 

 

(Neumann got around the export restriction by declaring Isamu's custom VF-19 to be a testbed for a VF-19 modernization program, and Isamu the test pilot for the program. No, Isamu's not getting a paycheck for his testpilot services.)

Edited June 22, 2020 by JB0

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

It is totally official.

He gave Neumann his entire UN Spacey retirement fund and his life savings to get a custom VF-19 that is close in configuration to the YF-19 he tested/saved the world with. Because no plane he's been in since has been even remotely as fun to fly.

This was after he tried and failed to buy an entire export-restricted VF-19 one piece at a time. He's lucky Neumann noticed before the UNS did.

I love Isamu.

 

 

(Neumann got around the export restriction by declaring Isamu's custom VF-19 to be a testbed for a VF-19 modernization program, and Isamu the test pilot for the program. No, Isamu's not getting a paycheck for his testpilot services.)

 

Ah, okay. Thanks for confirming that; btw: where does it mention that? (admittedly, it may have been mentioned in the discussion previously, but I didn't flash on it!)

[aurance]

It’s funny he’s still so fixated on a plane that’s out-classed 200-300% in thrust performance by even monkey models in Frontier/Delta era.

Edited June 22, 2020 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I can imagine it was quite a mess. I can also imagine the classified meeting where ideas were tossed around as how exactly to explain all of this to the public.

I like to think General Gomez, the man who was dead-set on killing the Project Super Nova contest in favor of the Ghost, likely had to be forcibly restrained during Isamu's debriefing.

 

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

And sorry if this sounds a little "out of it", but is the thing about Isamu being a "space trucker" and sinking his life savings into a VF official, or someone's head canon?

It's official.

The "space trucker" bit was revealed at the aforementioned official Macross concert, and the thing about him sinking his life savings into the VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special" is taken from the Mechanic Sheet for the VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special" in the official Macross encyclopedia Macross Chronicle.

 

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I haven't read much of the official stuff too much past Macross 7 (the RPG campaign I was in is on an extended hiatus due to the GM having some life issues getting in the way), or liner notes or anything like that.

Ouch... my group is similarly on hiatus, due to furloughs from our various offices dumping more work on us. 

We were in the middle of a campaign that's playing with the aftermath of the rather weak ending of Macross the Musiculture.  

Spoiler

Namely, it's kind of a "reality ensues" take on it.

Instead of Macross-29's populace being A-OK with the up-and-coming leader of the reform-minded Neo Zentran movement bailing on the election and effectively sinking any realistic hope of reversing the fleet's economic death spiral, the rioting pretty much immediately starts again.  The hardliners in the now-leaderless Neo Zentran movement are able to whip the populace into a fury by accusing Mayor Glass of corruption and of conspiring to sabotage the election, leading to a renewed wave of rioting.  The situation in the fleet gets so far out of control that what remains of the Macross-29 government petitions its neighbors for military aid to stabilize the situation.  

The player characters are a New UN Spacy Special Forces unit and civilian investigator sent in from one of the neighboring fleets to assist in restoring order and investigating allegations that an outside party deliberately engineered the whole situation as part of a grab for power.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, aurance said:

It’s funny he’s still so fixated on a plane that’s out-classed 200-300% in thrust performance by even monkey models in Frontier/Delta era.

My read on it is that it's basically his version of a classic muscle car as he heads into an early midlife crisis.

It's not bleeding edge performance, but for him something like an Inertia Store Converter probably counts as cheating.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

I'm sure it does just fine all day against supervison army and Zentradi . And if he needs more performance, there's always the YF-29. It even comes in his colors

[sketchley]

48 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I'm sure it does just fine all day against supervison army and Zentradi . And if he needs more performance, there's always the YF-29. It even comes in his colors

Apparently (if the VFMF books are to be believed) the VF-1 still does fine against the Zentrādi.  So, I'm quite certain that the VF-19 would be flying loops around their Mobile Weapons and doing what it was designed to do: cutting the head off of the snake. 

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I like to think General Gomez, the man who was dead-set on killing the Project Super Nova contest in favor of the Ghost, likely had to be forcibly restrained during Isamu's debriefing.

 

It's official.

The "space trucker" bit was revealed at the aforementioned official Macross concert, and the thing about him sinking his life savings into the VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special" is taken from the Mechanic Sheet for the VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special" in the official Macross encyclopedia Macross Chronicle.

 

Ouch... my group is similarly on hiatus, due to furloughs from our various offices dumping more work on us. 

We were in the middle of a campaign that's playing with the aftermath of the rather weak ending of Macross the Musiculture.  

  Hide contents

Namely, it's kind of a "reality ensues" take on it.

Instead of Macross-29's populace being A-OK with the up-and-coming leader of the reform-minded Neo Zentran movement bailing on the election and effectively sinking any realistic hope of reversing the fleet's economic death spiral, the rioting pretty much immediately starts again.  The hardliners in the now-leaderless Neo Zentran movement are able to whip the populace into a fury by accusing Mayor Glass of corruption and of conspiring to sabotage the election, leading to a renewed wave of rioting.  The situation in the fleet gets so far out of control that what remains of the Macross-29 government petitions its neighbors for military aid to stabilize the situation.  

The player characters are a New UN Spacy Special Forces unit and civilian investigator sent in from one of the neighboring fleets to assist in restoring order and investigating allegations that an outside party deliberately engineered the whole situation as part of a grab for power.

 

Hey, thanks for the fill-in on that! And yeah: it sucks that it's been on hold for so long. To be frank, it's been like since 2005(!),; every time players went to gather for the sessions, something ALWAYS got in the way at the last sec for at least one critical player  or the GM. I had custom-designed a variable fighter from scratch, only for it to be sidelined and never used in game.

As for your campaign: that sounds like a pretty interesting take using real-life as something of a basis. it also looks like it allows for an extended storyline and the ramifications of the riots, general unrest, and the investigation (wonder how many toes will get stepped on in that?).

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, aurance said:

It’s funny he’s still so fixated on a plane that’s out-classed 200-300% in thrust performance by even monkey models in Frontier/Delta era.

Sometimes, you find that "once in a lifetime fit" that nothing else will ever replace for you, even if it's somehow "better" performance-wise.

[JB0]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

 

Ah, okay. Thanks for confirming that; btw: where does it mention that? (admittedly, it may have been mentioned in the discussion previously, but I didn't flash on it!)

I saw it in this thread, actually. Understandably easy to miss given we're in a megathread. It was sourced from Macross Chronicle originally.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, aurance said:

It’s funny he’s still so fixated on a plane that’s out-classed 200-300% in thrust performance by even monkey models in Frontier/Delta era.

It isn't all about raw performance, it is about how it FEELS.

Remember that one of the things Isamu wanted was the YF-19's original flight control software... let's ignore that this software was responsible for multiple test-pilot deaths, and deemed so completely unsalvagable that it was thrown out and replaced with a reworked version of the VF-11 code. It offered the feel that Isamu wanted.

[pengbuzz]

8 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I saw it in this thread, actually. Understandably easy to miss given we're in a megathread. It was sourced from Macross Chronicle originally.

It isn't all about raw performance, it is about how it FEELS.

Remember that one of the things Isamu wanted was the YF-19's original flight control software... let's ignore that this software was responsible for multiple test-pilot deaths, and deemed so completely unsalvagable that it was thrown out and replaced with a reworked version of the VF-11 code. It offered the feel that Isamu wanted.

Okay, that would explain how I missed it!

Wow... I can imagine Myung probably divorced his sorry rear-end when he had to explain where their life savings went. Not to mention revenge from Jan for all the smart-aleck remarks and whatnot Isamu put him through...

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Bolt said:

I'm sure it does just fine all day against supervison army and Zentradi . And if he needs more performance, there's always the YF-29. It even comes in his colors

Oh, undoubtedly... the VF-11 Thunderbolt did just fine against the Zentradi when the odds weren't stacked too heavily against it.  The VF-19 was a massive step up in performance compared to the VF-11 it was intended to replace.

That, of course, was a big part of the problem.  Shinsei Industry built a VF that almost nobody could actually fly and (if you believe Master File) seems to have spent the next twenty or so trying to rework it into something that didn't kill its pilot and/or destroy itself before the enemy even got the chance.

 

 

5 hours ago, sketchley said:

Apparently (if the VFMF books are to be believed) the VF-1 still does fine against the Zentrādi.  So, I'm quite certain that the VF-19 would be flying loops around their Mobile Weapons and doing what it was designed to do: cutting the head off of the snake. 

Well, the cheaper ones anyway... the Queadluun-Rau battle suits do have a nasty habit of shredding VF-1's in bulk.

 

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Hey, thanks for the fill-in on that! And yeah: it sucks that it's been on hold for so long. To be frank, it's been like since 2005(!),; every time players went to gather for the sessions, something ALWAYS got in the way at the last sec for at least one critical player  or the GM. I had custom-designed a variable fighter from scratch, only for it to be sidelined and never used in game.

Yeah, gaming is a lot easier when you're a kid and you don't have all those responsibilities... long gone are the days when I could organize weekly sessions.  I'd be interested to hear about your custom-designed VF.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

As for your campaign: that sounds like a pretty interesting take using real-life as something of a basis. it also looks like it allows for an extended storyline and the ramifications of the riots, general unrest, and the investigation (wonder how many toes will get stepped on in that?).

Yeah, I've tried to flesh it out pretty extensively so the players won't be on rails... with three different emigrant governments poking their respective oars in, plenty of political intrigue, and some shifty corporations, I think I've created enough latitude that this game could probably run for at least a year's worth of weekly sessions.  When we left off, there were seven distinct factions squabbling for control of the fleet's government and its decommissioned military assets.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Sometimes, you find that "once in a lifetime fit" that nothing else will ever replace for you, even if it's somehow "better" performance-wise.

Nostalgia is a hell of an equalizer.

 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

I saw it in this thread, actually. Understandably easy to miss given we're in a megathread. It was sourced from Macross Chronicle originally.

 

 

 

It isn't all about raw performance, it is about how it FEELS.

Remember that one of the things Isamu wanted was the YF-19's original flight control software... let's ignore that this software was responsible for multiple test-pilot deaths, and deemed so completely unsalvagable that it was thrown out and replaced with a reworked version of the VF-11 code. It offered the feel that Isamu wanted.

Yeah, Isamu went to some pretty extreme lengths to convert the VF-19EF - a 2nd Mass Production type VF-19 like the VF-19F and VF-19S - into something that outwardly resembles and performs like the YF-19-2 or an early 1st Mass Production type VF-19 like the VF-19A.

 

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Wow... I can imagine Myung probably divorced his sorry rear-end when he had to explain where their life savings went. Not to mention revenge from Jan for all the smart-aleck remarks and whatnot Isamu put him through...

I like to think Dr. Neumann spends several minutes breathing heavily into a paper bag whenever Isamu's name is mentioned, and that he probably keeps Isamu's file photo on a dart board in his office.  Isamu tortured the crap out of him during Project Super Nova.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, gaming is a lot easier when you're a kid and you don't have all those responsibilities... long gone are the days when I could organize weekly sessions. 

There's always play-by-post.  It's nowhere near as fast as in-person, but scheduling a session is no longer a problem.

That said, those responsibilities rear their ugly heads even in PBP RPGing...

[jeniusornome]

I wonder why they went to the trouble of explaining all of that backstory for how Isamu’s voice wound up making a 3-second cameo in the Frontier movie.

”Isamu got an early retirement after the UN government sorted out the Sharon Apple mess and now he works for SMS” would have been a much simpler explanation. 

[Sildani]

How much blame did Millard take upon himself for Isamu’s actions? I read somewhere once - I thought - that he got cashiered right after the fallout of the Sharon Apple Incident.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

I wonder why they went to the trouble of explaining all of that backstory for how Isamu’s voice wound up making a 3-second cameo in the Frontier movie.

”Isamu got an early retirement after the UN government sorted out the Sharon Apple mess and now he works for SMS” would have been a much simpler explanation. 

Well, everyone is clamouring for sequels to their favourite Macross series.  In a way, this lets Kawamori-san off the hook, while still being able to creatively do whatever he wants.

Also, Macross F was basically designed around callbacks to previous Macross series (E.g. Miss Macross Frontier, Pineapple salad cake).  Isamu's 3-second cameo is basically the ultimate version of that.

Not to mention that the VF-19 was supposed to be the next fighter, and many fans were surprised (and disappointed?) when it was replaced by the VF-171.  So there's also a bit of "and this is what it would've been like" going on, too.

[deathzealot]

Jeez, Guys. You have been blowing up my inbox over the past two days with notices of new replies. Shakes head.
 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, gaming is a lot easier when you're a kid and you don't have all those responsibilities... long gone are the days when I could organize weekly sessions.

4 hours ago, sketchley said:

There's always play-by-post.  It's nowhere near as fast as in-person, but scheduling a session is no longer a problem.

That said, those responsibilities rear their ugly heads even in PBP RPGing...

Still, like to mention something in this discussion about Macross Tabletop Role-Playing Games. Back when I was young and dumb I ran several PBP RPs, or as I called them at the time Novel Type RPs, using a website called Rpol.net which has some neat tools and such for Roleplaying. Figured I mention it.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, sketchley said:

There's always play-by-post.  It's nowhere near as fast as in-person, but scheduling a session is no longer a problem.

That said, those responsibilities rear their ugly heads even in PBP RPGing...

Yup... our original format was playing at a delayed rate on a phpBB bulletin board.  In fact, that's what the domain that now hosts the Macross Mecha Manual was originally created for.  We moved it to Skype, and later to Discord, because we were able to actually make our scheduled sync up for a while.  Unfortunately, the worst offender in terms of availability happens to be the GM thanks to the department I oversee at my day job being critically understaffed in the middle of launch season with no ability to interview candidates to fill all the vacancies thanks to the pandemic. 

 

 

7 hours ago, jeniusornome said:

I wonder why they went to the trouble of explaining all of that backstory for how Isamu’s voice wound up making a 3-second cameo in the Frontier movie.

”Isamu got an early retirement after the UN government sorted out the Sharon Apple mess and now he works for SMS” would have been a much simpler explanation. 

It probably has something to do with the uncomfortable (and probably late) realization that they'd written themselves into a corner after they arranged Isamu's cameo appearance.

His appearance raises a TON of questions if you look into the setting even a little bit.

• Isamu was, last we heard from him, a Major in the New UN Spacy Reserve and still living/working somewhere in the New UN Gov't core systems (Earth/Eden) given that he was tapped to demonstrate the YF-24 Evolution to the New UN Forces in 2057.  Why, just two years later, is Isamu now flying for SMS tens of thousands of light years away?
• When Macross Frontier debuted, it was established that there were severe export restrictions on the VF-19 Excalibur because of what Isamu did that combined with the VF-19's high operating costs and other factors meant that the VF-19 was never widely adopted and its manufacture and operation are heavily restricted to the point that the emigrant governments can only manufacture them in small numbers at reduced capability for elite troops.  How then, did private citizen and SMS employee Isamu Dyson obtain a VF that is normally only available to the most elite New UN Forces Special Forces squadrons?
• At the time (2059) the second Macross Frontier movie is set, the VF-19's standard production variants hadn't looked like the YF-19 for almost fifteen years.  Why does Isamu's shiny new VF-19 look like a twenty year old variant?  Moreover, why doesn't his shiny new VF-19 look like the variant of VF-19 it's actually based on?
• Most importantly, Isamu is a private citizen in 2059 who somehow possesses an apparently-unique VF-19.  How in the nine hells did he pull THAT one off?  Who paid for that?  The VF-19 is supposed to be a fighter so expensive most emigrant fleets balked at the price tag.  Where did he get that kind of cash?

Casual Frontier viewers who haven't seen the rest of Macross aren't going to know that brief scene is even a cameo, never mind who it was and what the significance is.  The die-hard fans are the ones who read the articles in Newtype and Great Mechanics and Macross Chronicle that explained why the VF-19 wasn't a thing in 2059.  They're also the ones who were going to recognize that cameo for what it was and could be expected to know the significance of it because they've seen Macross Plus.  Those fans are going to ask those questions, because they're very quickly going to notice something doesn't tally up... so they needed to come up with an explanation.

 

6 hours ago, Sildani said:

How much blame did Millard take upon himself for Isamu’s actions? I read somewhere once - I thought - that he got cashiered right after the fallout of the Sharon Apple Incident.

Enough to keep Isamu from getting dishonorably discharged, apparently... 

 

[Sildani]

It just occurred to me: who writes this stuff for Chronicle and Great Mechanics? What makes them canon, actually, if Master File is not canon? I thought Newtype was just an anime trade mag, what makes the articles written within canon? Does Kawamori have to okay any of it? 

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, Sildani said:

It just occurred to me: who writes this stuff for Chronicle and Great Mechanics? What makes them canon, actually, if Master File is not canon? I thought Newtype was just an anime trade mag, what makes the articles written within canon? Does Kawamori have to okay any of it? 

Generally speaking, what makes information from an anime or hobby periodical like Newtype, Great Mechanics, Dengeki Hobby, B-Club, etc. authoritative is who that information came from rather than the publication itself.  A lot of these magazines run promotional pieces that are interviews with, or written/co-written by staff from the anime they're covering.  A lot of the Macross articles about mecha are written or co-written by the franchise's mechanical setting coordinator and original tech manual author Masahiro Chiba.  Kawamori's interviews on various shows are often goldmines of details about the show's non-mechanical setting.  Of course, Ken'ichi Yatagai's big feature in B-Club was THE source of timeline info for Macross II: Lovers Again, etc.

What sets the Variable Fighter Master File books apart is that, despite being nominally supervised by Kawamori and having some contributions from Chiba, each volume has a disclaimer on the book's credits page (like the one below) that specifically states that the book's contents are not official Macross setting material.  This one is from Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1.

[aurance]

Why would the VF-19 still be so heavily restricted though? In the years since I imagine you could take a bog standard VF-30 from Brisingr now and do what a -19 did back then and more easily, if published specs are anything to go by.

[Master Dex]

8 hours ago, aurance said:

Why would the VF-19 still be so heavily restricted though? In the years since I imagine you could take a bog standard VF-30 from Brisingr now and do what a -19 did back then and more easily, if published specs are anything to go by.

You mean penetrate the Earth Defense Grid? With a VF based on a monkey model spec of the YF-24 that Earth has the full specs for molded into a VF-24 that is supposedly more capable than the Uber expensive Vajra-killer YF-29? Also an Earth that has a defense grid designed to protect against their own creation by now and the experience of knowing they have to account for a type of attack exactly like what Isamu did before?

It might not be impossible, but it might as well be. Even if the disparity in defensive technology and Earth's way way more powerful VFs compared to the cheap knockoffs Brisingr makes wasn't a factor, Isamu basically did one thing that actually helped Earth, he showed a vulnerability they could patch, and almost certainly have. Basically, he ruined it for any future attackers wanting to infiltrate the planet the same way lol.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, aurance said:

Why would the VF-19 still be so heavily restricted though? In the years since I imagine you could take a bog standard VF-30 from Brisingr now and do what a -19 did back then and more easily, if published specs are anything to go by.

Because it takes many years for a military to fully transition from using an older model of fighter to a newer one.

Even in 2067, the New UN Government member governments that were early adopters had only recently begun the phased replacement process that would see the 4th Gen (or older?) VFs their New UN Forces were flying gradually retired and replaced with 5th Generation VFs... a process that would easily take a decade or more.  Other New UN Government members were still in the process of evaluating prospective 5th Generation main VF candidates and wouldn't have a workable design ready for introduction for years.  The Frontier Government's New UN Forces were still in the process of retiring and decommissioning their VF-11's in 2058, ten years after the introduction of the VF-171 and during the evaluation of their 5th Gen replacement for the VF-171.  Earth was only just starting the process of adopting the VF-24 in 2059 when the Vajra situation blew up, and both the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet and the Brisingr Alliance were 2-3 years from the start of production on their respective 5th Gen main VFs at the start of their respective series in 2059 and 2067.

Despite a commanding lead, Earth likely won't be finished transitioning its forces to the VF-24 until 2069-2070.  That'd be the point where they MIGHT loosen restrictions on the VF-19.  Many other governments likely won't finish transitioning to their new fighters until the late 2070s or beyond.

[aurance]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Because it takes many years for a military to fully transition from using an older model of fighter to a newer one.

Even in 2067, the New UN Government member governments that were early adopters had only recently begun the phased replacement process that would see the 4th Gen (or older?) VFs their New UN Forces were flying gradually retired and replaced with 5th Generation VFs... a process that would easily take a decade or more.  Other New UN Government members were still in the process of evaluating prospective 5th Generation main VF candidates and wouldn't have a workable design ready for introduction for years.  The Frontier Government's New UN Forces were still in the process of retiring and decommissioning their VF-11's in 2058, ten years after the introduction of the VF-171 and during the evaluation of their 5th Gen replacement for the VF-171.  Earth was only just starting the process of adopting the VF-24 in 2059 when the Vajra situation blew up, and both the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet and the Brisingr Alliance were 2-3 years from the start of production on their respective 5th Gen main VFs at the start of their respective series in 2059 and 2067.

Despite a commanding lead, Earth likely won't be finished transitioning its forces to the VF-24 until 2069-2070.  That'd be the point where they MIGHT loosen restrictions on the VF-19.  Many other governments likely won't finish transitioning to their new fighters until the late 2070s or beyond.

This makes sense, thank you.

[pengbuzz]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:04 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, gaming is a lot easier when you're a kid and you don't have all those responsibilities... long gone are the days when I could organize weekly sessions.

Pretty much the same for our GM (as previously mentioned). And it really hurt too, as our story involved an anti-UN Spacy conspiracy that had infiltrated the military and was working to take it completely over. Our colony fleet ended up launching from earth and the remnants of the conspiracy managed to gain a foothold in the fleet and began trying to take that over, with them stealing one of the two Three-Star heavy industry factory ships our fleet had (We largely used the palladium system and had the extended books from Macross II and ship/mecha info from steelfalcon.com). We were in the middle of that story when it got derailed. We combined elements from Macross Plus, 7 and Macross II, and it worked pretty well (Earth largely used the Macross II elements for it's defenses while fielding Macross Plus and 7 elements for colonies and Colonization fleets.)

  

On 6/22/2020 at 5:04 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, I've tried to flesh it out pretty extensively so the players won't be on rails... with three different emigrant governments poking their respective oars in, plenty of political intrigue, and some shifty corporations, I think I've created enough latitude that this game could probably run for at least a year's worth of weekly sessions.  When we left off, there were seven distinct factions squabbling for control of the fleet's government and its decommissioned military assets.

Sounds like a lot of forces pulling in some opposite directions there, with players having to watch their step at every turn!

  

On 6/22/2020 at 5:04 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

I like to think Dr. Neumann spends several minutes breathing heavily into a paper bag whenever Isamu's name is mentioned, and that he probably keeps Isamu's file photo on a dart board in his office.  Isamu tortured the crap out of him during Project Super Nova.

Yeah... I can guess that Jan probably spent a fortune alone on counseling and psychologists. Getting Isamu's retirement probably brought him some measure of satisfaction

  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by pengbuzz

[pengbuzz]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:04 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

  I'd be interested to hear about your custom-designed VF.

Sigh... I consider it an utter failure.

(You may want to brace yourself... this one probably screams "overpowered" and a bunch of other stuff that denotes noobs, kids and whatnot)

(and quite long)

(insert llamas joke from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" here)

-------------------------------

It was a extended kitbash/scratchbuild that had already taken several years to refine at the point I decided to "unveil it" (Originally designed and built in in 2002!), and it also had stats for gameplay (I'll try to find those later if you're interested; they're in a box somewhere in my closet).  I had posted it in a previous incarnation on the forums here about a decade ago, and it got ripped by the folks here at the time. Admittedly, I took it badly , and many called it "butt-hurt" (I don't think I could blame them, although one threatened physical harm on me from what I recall); truth was, I was dealing with my mom dying at the time and that was the last straw), and ended up leaving here. Originally I was under a different username.

The fighter itself: it was supposed to be a new type of stealth valkyrie that was to perform better in atmosphere than the VF-17 Nightmare without sacrificing its' stealth capability. Having played the game "Hexen", I came a cross the name "Wraithverge" (the cleric's weapon), and it seemed to fit the mech (so much for originality, right? lol )

So...pics:

   

 

 

(These should give you an idea of the mech; it's changed somewhat since these photos, but I haven't had time to take current ones.)

The criticism was that the parts were "too round" for stealth/ not shaped correctly. Too many "nooks and crannies" as well. Over the years, I tried solving those issues, but with this one, every time I tried to solve something, it created two more issues. So... I just gave up and largely set this aside.

Armament* for it (from what I remember):

- 1x 3-barreled Gatling gunpod holding 200 rounds of ammunition (later added alternate Heavy Beam Tube module option), stored formerly in leg; redesign moved position to backpack in fighter mode.

- 2x interchangeable magazines (in leg nacelle holding bays)

- 24x shoulder micro missiles (6 per launcher, 2 launchers per shoulder)

- 24x short range missiles (6 missiles per launcher, 2 side-mounted launchers per leg, main magazine lower rear leg near tail)

- 2x small bore laser cannons (1x per arm, 2 firing ports per arm)

- 2x medium-bore laser cannons (chest-mounted, just below cockpit in  fighter mode)

- 2x dual-barrel anti aircraft laser canons (head mounted)

- 2x chaff/ flare dispensers (mounted on sides of backpack), 3 chaff/flare per launcher (6x total)

- 4x "arm bayonets" (2 per arm, mounted just fore of arm-mounted cannon barrels/ wrist and elbow positions on forearms)

- 1x reinforced shield (left arm mounted

- 1x electro-transparent metal-based canopy (visually transparent when energized, solid metal otherwise)

[because I couldn't make a damned canopy cover for the thing!]

Formerly: experimental omnidirectional barrier (burned out first battle)

Later development: 1x "Gilead" beam gunpod, ventral mounted (under gunpod)
 

* In the RPG campaign, we were fighting Metal Sirens; the "Black Rose" conspiracy had built them to send after the fleet forces.

---------------------------------------------------------

The model now sits collecting dust. Not really interested in redesigning it or doing a new one (was hell the last time, tons of materials wasted during development, fix one problem and create 5 more, etc.) I did the design, built it out, got too complex, too many flaws to count, and I'm tired now.

Anyways, life goes on, and some of the valks out there now look better frankly than this. Just not a fan of the VF-25 Messiah, although the later ones after that look a bit better.

Edited June 23, 2020 by pengbuzz

[Master Dex]

I don't know what bothered people back then so much about it to bully you but I think it looks pretty neat. Most people don't go into the kind of detail you did and frankly that's worth a lot. Also if it's for an RPG it just has to be internally consistent anyway. I say be proud of your creation even it others can't be bothered.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Pretty much the same for our GM (as previously mentioned). And it really hurt too, as our story involved an anti-UN Spacy conspiracy that had infiltrated the military and was working to take it completely over. Our colony fleet ended up launching from earth and the remnants of the conspiracy managed to gain a foothold in the fleet and began trying to take that over, with them stealing one of the two Three-Star heavy industry factory ships our fleet had (We largely used the palladium system and had the extended books from Macross II and ship/mecha info from steelfalcon.com). We were in the middle of that story when it got derailed. We combined elements from Macross Plus, 7 and Macross II, and it worked pretty well (Earth largely used the Macross II elements for it's defenses while fielding Macross Plus and 7 elements for colonies and Colonization fleets.)

Yeah, it always sucks when a campaign gets derailed after the story really gets going.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Sounds like a lot of forces pulling in some opposite directions there, with players having to watch their step at every turn!

Can't say too much, since some of my players read these forums... but there are a lot of conflicting agendas in that emigrant fleet.  Partly it's due to the interplay between the reform movement's push for rearmament conflicting with the establishment's desire to maintain their pacifistic stance, but there's a fair amount of outside influence as other governments see opportunities to profit from someone else's suffering.

 

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Sigh... I consider it an utter failure.

(You may want to brace yourself... this one probably screams "overpowered" and a bunch of other stuff that denotes noobs, kids and whatnot)

I'm not going to jump to any conclusions... but I guarantee no matter how bad you think it is, I have absolutely seen FAR worse.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

It was a extended kitbash/scratchbuild that had already taken several years to refine at the point I decided to "unveil it" (Originally designed and built in in 2002!), and it also had stats for gameplay (I'll try to find those later if you're interested; they're in a box somewhere in my closet).  I had posted it in a previous incarnation on the forums here about a decade ago, and it got ripped by the folks here at the time. Admittedly, I took it badly , and many called it "butt-hurt" (I don't think I could blame them, although one threatened physical harm on me from what I recall); truth was, I was dealing with my mom dying at the time and that was the last straw), and ended up leaving here. Originally I was under a different username.

All in all, it actually looks OK to me.  There are some obvious design concessions that had to be made as it's a kitbash, but it looks OK to me in terms of the physical model.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The fighter itself: it was supposed to be a new type of stealth valkyrie that was to perform better in atmosphere than the VF-17 Nightmare without sacrificing its' stealth capability. Having played the game "Hexen", I came a cross the name "Wraithverge" (the cleric's weapon), and it seemed to fit the mech (so much for originality, right? lol )

Well, you're in good company on the concept front... Kawamori's SW-XA1 and SW-XA2 from his "VF-Experiment" series in Character Model were basically exactly that.  New stealth fighters intended to complement/supplement the VF-17 since the VF-17 was mostly only good for long-range attacks in space.

Name-wise, I can't pretend that I thrill to "Wraithverge" but it's definitely no worse than many fan fiction designs I've seen over the years.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Armament* for it (from what I remember):

- 1x 3-barreled Gatling gunpod holding 200 rounds of ammunition (later added alternate Heavy Beam Tube module option), stored formerly in leg; redesign moved position to backpack in fighter mode.

- 2x interchangeable magazines (in leg nacelle holding bays)

- 24x shoulder micro missiles (6 per launcher, 2 launchers per shoulder)

- 24x short range missiles (6 missiles per launcher, 2 side-mounted launchers per leg, main magazine lower rear leg near tail)

- 2x small bore laser cannons (1x per arm, 2 firing ports per arm)

- 2x medium-bore laser cannons (chest-mounted, just below cockpit in  fighter mode)

- 2x dual-barrel anti aircraft laser canons (head mounted)

- 2x chaff/ flare dispensers (mounted on sides of backpack), 3 chaff/flare per launcher (6x total)

- 4x "arm bayonets" (2 per arm, mounted just fore of arm-mounted cannon barrels/ wrist and elbow positions on forearms)

- 1x reinforced shield (left arm mounted

- 1x electro-transparent metal-based canopy (visually transparent when energized, solid metal otherwise)

[because I couldn't make a damned canopy cover for the thing!]

Formerly: experimental omnidirectional barrier (burned out first battle)

Later development: 1x "Gilead" beam gunpod, ventral mounted (under gunpod)

Hm... all told, assuming it's comparably sized compared to a VF-19 or VF-22 that's actually not far outside the realm of reason.

The gunpod's basically a GU-11A and we know THAT works.  Internal storage probably wouldn't work out with all the other stuff you're putting in there but otherwise...

The micro-missile count ain't bad either.  The spec from the VF-19F/S on the toy packaging was for 48 micro-missiles in the legs, though that was later taken back down to 24.  The VF-31's got 36 in a 2x3x6 configuration.  The YF-29's got 100.

The beam gun specs are all borrowed from existing VFs (e.g. the VF-17) so no issue there.

The arm bayonets might be a bit much, and there's a lot being stored in the legs, but otherwise it all looks more or less OK.  Macross the Ride had a VF with an experimental barrier like that, though it was based on Protodeviln biotech.

 

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, it always sucks when a campaign gets derailed after the story really gets going.

Yup; in this case, we were on a definitive roll.

  

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Can't say too much, since some of my players read these forums... but there are a lot of conflicting agendas in that emigrant fleet.  Partly it's due to the interplay between the reform movement's push for rearmament conflicting with the establishment's desire to maintain their pacifistic stance, but there's a fair amount of outside influence as other governments see opportunities to profit from someone else's suffering.

In other words: everybody wants to rule the fleet? (cue Tears for Fears).

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not going to jump to any conclusions... but I guarantee no matter how bad you think it is, I have absolutely seen FAR worse.

I've seen some designs out there, but not to the extent you describe.

 

  

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All in all, it actually looks OK to me.  There are some obvious design concessions that had to be made as it's a kitbash, but it looks OK to me in terms of the physical model.

Thanks, I appreciate that! And yes: I had to make several, such as the "swing bar" under the shoulder pod that connects the rest of the arm. A necessary "evil", but I still wish I could rework it to a more solid config.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, you're in good company on the concept front... Kawamori's SW-XA1 and SW-XA2 from his "VF-Experiment" series in Character Model were basically exactly that.  New stealth fighters intended to complement/supplement the VF-17 since the VF-17 was mostly only good for long-range attacks in space.
 

That's one thing that bothered me about the 17; the other fighters could do more, but the 17 seemed to me to be stuck in "long range attack". After using one in several instances where we ended up in dogfights (and regretting it), I wished for a better one that was stealth and couldn't find one.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Name-wise, I can't pretend that I thrill to "Wraithverge" but it's definitely no worse than many fan fiction designs I've seen over the years.

Understood; admittedly, it began to sound dumb to me after a few years, but by then I called it that for so long that it became synonymous with the mech in my mind. If it ever came to it though, I could probably shorten it to "Wraith" (pretty sure that name's not taken, at least last time I looked), which would also fit.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The gunpod's basically a GU-11A and we know THAT works.  Internal storage probably wouldn't work out with all the other stuff you're putting in there but otherwise..

Yes; I had to move it into the "backpack" in order to get it to fit after thinking about the legs and all the stuff in it. But should it end up an "outie" like it's larger cousin, that's not the end of the world.
 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hm... all told, assuming it's comparably sized compared to a VF-19 or VF-22 that's actually not far outside the realm of reason.

It is indeed; in the campaign, one NPC flew a VF-19 and the other flew a VF-22 (GM was/is a fan of M+), and the other players has 17's. I didn't want to make something that would look dumb next to the other two. 

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The micro-missile count ain't bad either.  The spec from the VF-19F/S on the toy packaging was for 48 micro-missiles in the legs, though that was later taken back down to 24.  The VF-31's got 36 in a 2x3x6 configuration.  The YF-29's got 100.

Right; I didn't want to get ridiculous on that, as it's too easy to overpower a mech with built-in "Itano Circuses". Also, the legs were already carrying quite a bit, to the point I had to relocate the gunpod. On the back of WV's leg, the engine housing bulks up a bit as it heads towards the tail. That stores much of the short range missiles, with 1-2 in the side launch pod "at ready" (may need to rework that if missiles would be too large):

The inner leg stores the gunpod magazines; a bit of a tight fit, but manageable. Had I carried out the 11/48 scale version I wanted to do, I would have made functional bays to put those in.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The beam gun specs are all borrowed from existing VFs (e.g. the VF-17) so no issue there.

Yeah; I liked those concepts and decided to run with them. Why fix what isn't broken, right?

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The arm bayonets might be a bit much, and there's a lot being stored in the legs, but otherwise it all looks more or less OK.

To be honest, I don't remember why I called them "arm bayonets", since they're conformal blades built into the arm housing (silver edge on the arm housing at wrist and elbow, you can just barely make it out due to age). Their original function was to provide a "last resort" melee weapon that didn't need ammo or power that could be used when all else was gone:

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross the Ride had a VF with an experimental barrier like that, though it was based on Protodeviln biotech.

The barrier: that was largely for "story effect" to explain why the mech didn't get destroyed in the explosion of a capital ship it was attacking. The barrier saved it, but was burned out in the process.

 

Seto, I really appreciate you taking a look at this for me, and the kindness of your comments in doing so. One thing this project did serve to teach me was to not criticize mech designs too hastily, as the designers often have challenges they need to overcome, and concessions do have to be made (especially with transforming designs!). It's not easy designing something meant for combat, and what can look "cool" may not work or get someone into a jam the designer never anticipated!

 

Thank you.