Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

17 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

For example, one idea I have is that the Protodeviln are actually similar to that of the Mardook from Macross II and control their forces through songs. 

The Windermereans in Macross Delta are actually a much better example of that... right down to the Protoculture connections, song priestesses, and using songs to boost the combat performance of their troops. 

 

17 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

I wouldn't count either of those. Sharon Apple is a human-created AI and not a Protoculture created race. The Galactic Whales are closest but we don't know much about them, like Seto said do we actually know if they are sentient.

There were/are more virtuoids like Sharon Apple in the galaxy at one point... one of the characters in the stage musical Macross the Musiculture was one.  The technology to make them truly alive/sentient/self-aware was illegal though, because it had a tendency to result in developing self-preservation behaviors and a case of crazy robots.

 

17 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Ummm... I thought the Dyaus are actually artificially created weapons and not really an intelligent race. As for bio-android I had forgotten about that but they are only a couple around at this time.

The Dyaus are bio-technological, and are shown in the story to have the ability to reproduce biologically.  How intelligent they truly are is anyone's guess, but they definitely react to intrusions into the Protoculture ruins in a coordinated way that suggests they're fairly intelligent.

 

17 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

First extended from the bit about the races from Delta. Are Ragna or Voldor actually part of the Brisingr Alliance? Or are they their own independent worlds. I believe it was mentioned that Voldor had their own NUNS Garrison Fleet. Therefore, making them members of the New United Nations Government in some way, but does the mean they are also part of the Alliance or are they their own member of the NUNG. Ragna doesn't look to have its own NUNS forces outside of the Xaos forces. Oh. They have a fleet in orbit when the Windermere arrive to start the Battle of Ragna but I honestly don't think they are actually NUNS but Xaos as the officer that reported to the Macross Elysion is wearing a Xaos Officer Uniform similar to that of Captain Johnson. We also just saw Xaos call in some further forces a couple episodes before hand.

Yes, both Ragna and Voldor are New UN Government member planets and members of the Brisingr Alliance.

Windermere IV was too, before the Kingdom of the Wind withdrew from the New UN Government in 2060.

The Brisingr Alliance is a mutual defense pact and trade agreement uniting the New UN Government member planets in the Brisingr globular cluster.  The cluster is so remote that it would be problematic to get reinforcements from outside the cluster should a world in it come under attack, and its remoteness also hindered the development of its economy.  The practical solution to these problems was to form a united front where the various planets in the cluster would reinforce each other if one should be attacked and would support each other's trade to bolster their economies.  The VF-31 Kairos is the Brisingr Alliance's economic brainchild, a locally-developed 5th Generation main Variable Fighter that they could sell as an export instead of having to spend money to import fighters or licenses to locally build fighters from outside the cluster.

 

17 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Second. Do we have any data on the Island Jackpot and its class of ship? Others call it the Island Class. I believe it is smaller then even the regular New Macross Class Island that we see with the Macross 7, but is it a member of that overall reaching class of Island Ships. Basically the human colony ship that arrived at Ragna. Or is it like the Environment Ships from Frontier where it is an auxiliary colony ship to that of a main, larger, colony ship?

Nope.  It's a reuse of the Island Cluster-class CG model from Macross Frontier but it's clearly MUCH smaller and landed on Ragna about 30 years ago (2037?).

I have, in the past, speculated that it was meant to be an early 3rd Generation emigrant ship - one of the first City-class emigrant ships - possibly being the City-class component of the Macross 2.  We know that the City-class had gained the "Shell" portion of its design by the time Macross 5 was built, and we know the fates of Macross 3 and Macross 4, which is enough to narrow it down to just the Macross 1 or Macross 2, and it doesn't match the pictured configuration of the Macross 1.  This is, however, just speculation.  Its identity hasn't been confirmed.

[deathzealot]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Windermereans in Macross Delta are actually a much better example of that... right down to the Protoculture connections, song priestesses, and using songs to boost the combat performance of their troops. 

True. I actually had the idea long before I even started watching Delta.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There were/are more virtuoids like Sharon Apple in the galaxy at one point... one of the characters in the stage musical Macross the Musiculture was one.  The technology to make them truly alive/sentient/self-aware was illegal though, because it had a tendency to result in developing self-preservation behaviors and a case of crazy robots.

Again. True. Though I did not know there were more virtuoids out there beside Sharon Apple. Interesting.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Dyaus are bio-technological, and are shown in the story to have the ability to reproduce biologically.  How intelligent they truly are is anyone's guess, but they definitely react to intrusions into the Protoculture ruins in a coordinated way that suggests they're fairly intelligent.

Huh. I did not know that they actually could reproduce. Thought they were only some sort of weird bio-weapon created by the Protoculture. Sometimes I really wish I could actually play Macross games. Sigh.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, both Ragna and Voldor are New UN Government member planets and members of the Brisingr Alliance.

Windermere IV was too, before the Kingdom of the Wind withdrew from the New UN Government in 2060.

The Brisingr Alliance is a mutual defense pact and trade agreement uniting the New UN Government member planets in the Brisingr globular cluster.  The cluster is so remote that it would be problematic to get reinforcements from outside the cluster should a world in it come under attack, and its remoteness also hindered the development of its economy.  The practical solution to these problems was to form a united front where the various planets in the cluster would reinforce each other if one should be attacked and would support each other's trade to bolster their economies.  The VF-31 Kairos is the Brisingr Alliance's economic brainchild, a locally-developed 5th Generation main Variable Fighter that they could sell as an export instead of having to spend money to import fighters or licenses to locally build fighters from outside the cluster.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope.  It's a reuse of the Island Cluster-class CG model from Macross Frontier but it's clearly MUCH smaller and landed on Ragna about 30 years ago (2037?).

I have, in the past, speculated that it was meant to be an early 3rd Generation emigrant ship - one of the first City-class emigrant ships - possibly being the City-class component of the Macross 2.  We know that the City-class had gained the "Shell" portion of its design by the time Macross 5 was built, and we know the fates of Macross 3 and Macross 4, which is enough to narrow it down to just the Macross 1 or Macross 2, and it doesn't match the pictured configuration of the Macross 1.  This is, however, just speculation.  Its identity hasn't been confirmed.

Huh. So it could be the City Section of the New Macross Fleet that originally found Ragna? The one seen in that one flashback. I thought those particular early City Sections were around 5k meters in length? The Island Jackpot looks to be half-that size. You know I just remembered didn't Macross 5 (and Macross 1 now that I think about it) have more then one City-Section? Therefore. This so-called Island Class could a smaller auxiliary city section for those early Macross Colony Fleets. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. I did not know that they actually could reproduce. Thought they were only some sort of weird bio-weapon created by the Protoculture. Sometimes I really wish I could actually play Macross games. Sigh.

Yeah, Dyaus nests are all over the world maps for the three regions in the game and their eggs are a collectible item.

 

3 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. So it could be the City Section of the New Macross Fleet that originally found Ragna? The one seen in that one flashback. I thought those particular early City Sections were around 5k meters in length? The Island Jackpot looks to be half-that size. You know I just remembered didn't Macross 5 (and Macross 1 now that I think about it) have more then one City-Section? Therefore. This so-called Island Class could a smaller auxiliary city section for those early Macross Colony Fleets. 

Some of the early City-class ships were a bit weird.  Macross 1's City section, for instance, had no shell.  The alternative is that it's maybe something like one of the supplementary habitat modules that were sometimes docked to the city ships.

[deathzealot]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Some of the early City-class ships were a bit weird.  Macross 1's City section, for instance, had no shell.  The alternative is that it's maybe something like one of the supplementary habitat modules that were sometimes docked to the city ships.

Oh. Like that Akusho Section seen in Macross 7?

[jvmacross]

Is this weapon on the SDF-1 an actual part of the SDF-1's weapon systems or was it dropped from canon?  I am referring to the section that seems to lift from the "legs" as illustrated below....

The only reason I ask is because I cannot seem to recall it ever being used during the SDFM TV show.....was thinking maybe during the final battle during Ep. 27, but it does not seem it was ever animated in action...it was, however, added as part of the several gimmicks on the Takatoku Toys 1/3000 SDF-1...

 

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Oh. Like that Akusho Section seen in Macross 7?

Or something similar, yeah.

 

6 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Is this weapon on the SDF-1 an actual part of the SDF-1's weapon systems or was it dropped from canon?  I am referring to the section that seems to lift from the "legs" as illustrated below....

The only reason I ask is because I cannot seem to recall it ever being used during the SDFM TV show.....was thinking maybe during the final battle during Ep. 27, but it does not seem it was ever animated in action...it was, however, added as part of the several gimmicks on the Takatoku Toys 1/3000 SDF-1...

 

I can honestly say that's a new one... the Macross was originally going to have a lot more weaponized gimmicks back when the original series was being drafted, and most of them ended up cut from the concept.

[jvmacross]

12 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I can honestly say that's a new one... the Macross was originally going to have a lot more weaponized gimmicks back when the original series was being drafted, and most of them ended up cut from the concept.

Interesting....perhaps a case of Takatoku Toys, being a major sponsor for the show, asking for some "extra" gimmicks to incorporate into their SDF-1 toy? 

Also interesting, is that on the DYRL? SDF-1,  that section is actually being used to accomodate civilians.  I was never clear on where the TV version of the SDF-1 houses its civilians.

[JB0]

7 hours ago, jvmacross said:

I was never clear on where the TV version of the SDF-1 houses its civilians.

Given the catastrophic effects transformation had on the city, I assume they were near the center of the ship where everything was moving.

[Lexomatic]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

Given the catastrophic effects transformation had on the city, I assume they were near the center of the ship where everything was moving.

My first exposure to Macross was via the McKinley novelizations of Robotech, and given the catastrophic effects described in prose, plus any reasonable footprint for a 50,000-person city with buildings and road traffic, I inferred that it was spread throughout the entire ship, bow to stern. DYRL has establishing shots that place the city in the left leg, and the 2007(?) toy follows suit -- but at only ~400 meters, that's not nearly large enough. When I finally got to TV show (on Amazon Prime), I paid special attention to episode 18 "Pineapple Salad", in which Miriya and Max have their indoor-outdoor fight while the SDF is in Attack mode, floating upright in the ocean; as depicted, the placement of the hatches is not easy to reconcile with the city in the leg. (Also, gravity control must be working overtime with the decks at 90° to Earth's gravity.)

A 1200-meter ship is plenty to berth 50,000 people, but not if they insist on such amenity-inefficiencies as buildings, tree-lined roads, fenced barracks, and a concert amphitheater. I assume the "why" is somewhere between "the 1982 show was a rush job, so we weren't careful with dimensions" and the reason for the oversized interiors of Star Trek Online, i.e., the extra room is needed for the game engine's camera.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, JB0 said:

Given the catastrophic effects transformation had on the city, I assume they were near the center of the ship where everything was moving.

My understanding is that the city occupied a number of different portions of the ship including a fair portion of the core block and was stacked five or six layers deep in places.

 

2 minutes ago, Lexomatic said:

A 1200-meter ship is plenty to berth 50,000 people, but not if they insist on such amenity-inefficiencies as buildings, tree-lined roads, fenced barracks, and a concert amphitheater. I assume the "why" is somewhere between "the 1982 show was a rush job, so we weren't careful with dimensions" and the reason for the oversized interiors of Star Trek Online, i.e., the extra room is needed for the game engine's camera.

There are a number of shots that clearly place at least part of the city inside the ship's core block, most particularly the immediate aftermath of the ship's first return to Earth.

There are also a few shots that depict the city as actually existing in several distinct layers of town inside the ship, stacked vertically.  The population density should be higher than what we see in the series, but it's possible the folks who lived in the highrise buildings we saw in the first episode were displaced to more space-efficient cabins in the rest of the ship and the actual "city" was mostly the suburbs with low-rise buildings that could be efficiently packed.  

(That said, 58,000 civilians is almost six times the Macross-class's long-term sustainable population if the Macross-class SDFNs are any indication... so it's not surprising the ship had so many problems accommodating them.)

[jvmacross]

Not sure where this info was sourced from on the Macross Compendium:

"The first space fold transported the ship near the orbit of Pluto instead near the Moon the intended destination on the same day. Underwent refit with a civilian and business sector built into aft section hull and docked with CVS-101 Prometheus and SLV-111 Daedalus February to March, 2009. Underwent complete overhaul from January to August, 2012."

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Macross_Class

[Seto Kaiba]

19 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Not sure where this info was sourced from on the Macross Compendium:

"The first space fold transported the ship near the orbit of Pluto instead near the Moon the intended destination on the same day. Underwent refit with a civilian and business sector built into aft section hull and docked with CVS-101 Prometheus and SLV-111 Daedalus February to March, 2009. Underwent complete overhaul from January to August, 2012."

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Macross_Class

Well, you'd have to ask Egan Loo... that statement was ported over directly from his original Macross-class article on the old Macross Compendium website.

What I can say with some confidence is that this statement was based on a later chronology, since the earliest versions of the chronology put the events of the first episode in October.

For what it's worth, it generally agrees with what Macross Chronicle has written about the subject in the "Within the Macross" Worldguide sheet (No.07).  That sheet has a diagram that indicates the city was built into internal compartments throughout the main body of the ship (everything aft of the main gun) and the engines/legs.

[Andras]

On 5/12/2020 at 8:34 PM, jvmacross said:

Is this weapon on the SDF-1 an actual part of the SDF-1's weapon systems or was it dropped from canon?  I am referring to the section that seems to lift from the "legs" as illustrated below....

The only reason I ask is because I cannot seem to recall it ever being used during the SDFM TV show.....was thinking maybe during the final battle during Ep. 27, but it does not seem it was ever animated in action...it was, however, added as part of the several gimmicks on the Takatoku Toys 1/3000 SDF-1...

 

I have a 1984 Bandai SDF-1 that also has flip up panels with a hole down the middle on each leg, but there's a slot along the top where yours has the yellow pieces.  

[jvmacross]

45 minutes ago, Andras said:

I have a 1984 Bandai SDF-1 that also has flip up panels with a hole down the middle on each leg, but there's a slot along the top where yours has the yellow pieces.  

I am guessing you may have the Matchbox version or a KO of somekind.....this is the rear of the Matchbox version...

[Andras]

That's it. I got a bunch of the Matchbox series when Robotech was on the air originally in the US.  Destroids, an Alpha, 3 SD style VFs and the SDF-1.

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Andras

[fenrir72]

Latecomer and the search engine sent me here. 

I recently acquired, after almost a decade a Dx Chogokin Koenig Monster. (3rd version olive green). I first heard of it back in my PSOne VFX2 and I mistakenly thought based on  the game article of it that it was the Space War One Monster (stupid author back then).  I thought, WOW! Why didn't they render it back then to transform. Later I would learn they were two different  mechs and the rest is history.

HMR released the Monster which I immediately got but it was the Space War One version. Non transforming. Kind of disappointed then I opened the box and it was like Sheer awesomeness. It really was a Monster!

I then got lucky a few weeks ago and scored a loose but near mint Bandai Koenig V6 ver3 color DX Chogokin. Again, it was like   . So awesome! (I was targeting the 1/100  Yamato but reviews of Scorched Earth Toys was less than stellar).

Then I read the Destroid form was never used in the anime. Too bad! If it was rendered as such, the battles would have been awesome! Even in the 0-G environment, I doubt it would be that maneuverable but it would have been  epic to see it stomp heads!

Just imagine having it go against the Invid ( I know different franchise)...........

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by fenrir72

[twich]

So, here is a question. I have looked and read on the Macross Compendium and Macross Mecha Manual, and I know that in Frontier, the Variable Fighters had linear actuators that helped with fatigue of parts and whatnot, but it doesn’t state in Delta if the VF-31 and/or SV-262 has linear actuators? Is it just assumed that all 5th gen Variable Fighters have this?

twich

[Bolt]

Sounds like a fun journey @fenrir72

15 minutes ago, twich said:

So, here is a question. I have looked and read on the Macross Compendium and Macross Mecha Manual, and I know that in Frontier, the Variable Fighters had linear actuators that helped with fatigue of parts and whatnot, but it doesn’t state in Delta if the VF-31 and/or SV-262 has linear actuators? Is it just assumed that all 5th gen Variable Fighters have this?

twich

Waiting patiently for words of knowledge to be dropped..

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, fenrir72 said:

Latecomer and the search engine sent me here. 

Well, welcome!

 

Quote

Then I read the Destroid form was never used in the anime. Too bad! If it was rendered as such, the battles would have been awesome! Even in the 0-G environment, I doubt it would be that maneuverable but it would have been  epic to see it stomp heads!

Dunno where you read that, because that's actually not true... they did actually render all three modes for Macross Frontier, though the Destroid mode puts in only one brief appearance in the final episode of the TV series.  It's at 19:16 in the episode, where SMS's VB-6 is shown defending Island-1 during its landing on the Vajra planet.  We see it transform at around 18:36, after it shot Battle Galaxy full in the face with four thermonuclear reaction warheads.  It was also animated in the trailer for the second Macross Frontier movie, though that was an ultimately unused variant that has some big damn rotary cannons (reused CG models off the Cheyenne II destroid) on its arms.

Konig Monster fans did at least get some recompense when Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy made the Konig Monster one of its playable VFs.

 

Quote

Just imagine having it go against the Invid ( I know different franchise)...........

Setting any weaponry from Macross up against the Inbit from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA - AKA the Invid from Robotech - would be a level of overkill that crosses the line twice and ends up feeling like bullying.  The Inbit/Invid are so lightly armored that, even in the native MOSPEADA setting, their mecha can be easily destroyed by weapons little more powerful than modern man-portable rocket-propelled grenades and anti-materiel rifles.  A 30mm rotary cannon like the A-10A Thunderbolt II's (or the trio of 'em carried by the AB-01 TLEAD AKA "Beta Fighter") is itself comical overkill against an enemy like that, and the VF-1's GU-11A gunpod is something on the order of 7 times as powerful.  The Konig Monster has the firepower to flatten cities.

(Never mind that the SMS/NUNS upgraded Konig Monster from the late 2050s and 2060s has advanced energy conversion armor that would make it difficult for the Inbit/Invid to do much more than scuff up the paint and annoy the pilot.)

 

3 hours ago, twich said:

So, here is a question. I have looked and read on the Macross Compendium and Macross Mecha Manual, and I know that in Frontier, the Variable Fighters had linear actuators that helped with fatigue of parts and whatnot, but it doesn’t state in Delta if the VF-31 and/or SV-262 has linear actuators? Is it just assumed that all 5th gen Variable Fighters have this?

twich

Yeah, all 5th Generation VFs have linear actuator technology.  The VF-31 and Sv-262 are 5th Gen.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[fenrir72]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, welcome!

 

Dunno where you read that, because that's actually not true... they did actually render all three modes for Macross Frontier, though the Destroid mode puts in only one brief appearance in the final episode of the TV series.  It's at 19:16 in the episode, where SMS's VB-6 is shown defending Island-1 during its landing on the Vajra planet.  We see it transform at around 18:36, after it shot Battle Galaxy full in the face with four thermonuclear reaction warheads.  It was also animated in the trailer for the second Macross Frontier movie, though that was an ultimately unused variant that has some big damn rotary cannons (reused CG models off the Cheyenne II destroid) on its arms.

Konig Monster fans did at least get some recompense when Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy made the Konig Monster one of its playable VFs.

 

Setting any weaponry from Macross up against the Inbit from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA - AKA the Invid from Robotech - would be a level of overkill that crosses the line twice and ends up feeling like bullying.  The Inbit/Invid are so lightly armored that, even in the native MOSPEADA setting, their mecha can be easily destroyed by weapons little more powerful than modern man-portable rocket-propelled grenades and anti-materiel rifles.  A 30mm rotary cannon like the A-10A Thunderbolt II's (or the trio of 'em carried by the AB-01 TLEAD AKA "Beta Fighter") is itself comical overkill against an enemy like that, and the VF-1's GU-11A gunpod is something on the order of 7 times as powerful.  The Konig Monster has the firepower to flatten cities.

(Never mind that the SMS/NUNS upgraded Konig Monster from the late 2050s and 2060s has advanced energy conversion armor that would make it difficult for the Inbit/Invid to do much more than scuff up the paint and annoy the pilot.)

 

Yeah, all 5th Generation VFs have linear actuator technology.  The VF-31 and Sv-262 are 5th Gen.

Over kill huh? 

So the destroid mode did show up! Epic!  Also a wtf on the V6, it comes with its own pin point barrier system?! Talk about 

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Konig Monster fans did at least get some recompense when Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy made the Konig Monster one of its playable VFs.

Let's not forget the very first appearance of the Konig Monster: the VF-X2 game, where it is a playable VF (rotates slow as hell...)

 

As for the VB-6 and Invid... I recommend you take a look at the opening animation for the VF-X2 game.  It shows how it deals with pesky tanks... it steps on them!  LOL

(the VB-6 stuff starts at around 1:10.  But you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch from the start! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GZIWmxMoJk )

 

[sketchley]

42 minutes ago, fenrir72 said:

Over kill huh? 

So the destroid mode did show up! Epic!  Also a wtf on the V6, it comes with its own pin point barrier system?! Talk about 

Erm... Pinpoint Barrier equipped Monster Destroids show up in the game "Macross M3".  The Energy Conversion Armour that Seito's referring to is different.  Instead of only protecting a couple of small areas, it makes ALL of the armour stronger.

[deathzealot]

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

(the VB-6 stuff starts at around 1:10.  But you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch from the start! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GZIWmxMoJk )

Oh man. I had forgotten about opening for this game. It is freaking awesome! I love the whole full-on animated openings!

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, fenrir72 said:

So the destroid mode did show up! Epic!  Also a wtf on the V6, it comes with its own pin point barrier system?! Talk about 

Not a pinpoint barrier... energy conversion armor is a technology that's used on all VFs to compensate for their armor being comparatively thin in order to keep their weight down for flight.  It's a system that uses a special layered, laminated armor material that becomes more resistant to damage when it's charged with electromagnetic pulses.  That system draws a LOT of power, though, so VFs are forced to trade off engine output for armor strength depending on mode.  Normally, the energy conversion armor is turned off in Fighter mode so a VF can exert all of its reactor output producing thrust to fly, it's turned on at partial power in GERWALK mode where demands for raw engine thrust are diminished, and full power for Battroid mode where thrust requirements are lowest.

On the VF-0, the energy conversion armor made Fighter mode a fair bit tougher than the average fighter plane, GERWALK mode was as durable as a well-armored attack helicopter, and Battroid mode was as tough as a main battle tank.

This way, a VF that has armor only a fraction of the thickness of a Destroid's can acquire similar defensive ability.

The VB-6 Konig Monster in Macross Frontier was an improved type that uses a next-generation energy conversion armor technology that boasts defensive capabilities rivaling the armor of a heavy cruiser-class space warship when operating at maximum potential.  It's even more Tonka-tough than the already incredibly durable VFs in common use (which are themselves several times as durable as the VF-1, which was by all accounts at least three times the toughness of a main battle tank).

It's broadly similar to technologies like Star Trek: Enterprise's polarized hull plating, Gundam SEED's phase shift armor, and Gundam 00's structural GN fields.

[Focslain]

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

On the VF-0, the energy conversion armor made Fighter mode a fair bit tougher than the average fighter plane, GERWALK mode was as durable as a well-armored attack helicopter, and Battroid mode was as tough as a main battle tank.

I wonder if they adapted this to the games? I tend to flip modes quickly in Delta Scramble so haven't noticed a difference. It would be an interesting mechanic if added.

[Seto Kaiba]

32 minutes ago, Focslain said:

I wonder if they adapted this to the games? I tend to flip modes quickly in Delta Scramble so haven't noticed a difference. It would be an interesting mechanic if added.

My expectation would be that it wouldn't be... as an anti-frustration feature for players.  

[fenrir72]

 

3 hours ago, Focslain said:

I wonder if they adapted this to the games? I tend to flip modes quickly in Delta Scramble so haven't noticed a difference. It would be an interesting mechanic if added.

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not a pinpoint barrier... energy conversion armor is a technology that's used on all VFs to compensate for their armor being comparatively thin in order to keep their weight down for flight.  It's a system that uses a special layered, laminated armor material that becomes more resistant to damage when it's charged with electromagnetic pulses.  That system draws a LOT of power, though, so VFs are forced to trade off engine output for armor strength depending on mode.  Normally, the energy conversion armor is turned off in Fighter mode so a VF can exert all of its reactor output producing thrust to fly, it's turned on at partial power in GERWALK mode where demands for raw engine thrust are diminished, and full power for Battroid mode where thrust requirements are lowest.

On the VF-0, the energy conversion armor made Fighter mode a fair bit tougher than the average fighter plane, GERWALK mode was as durable as a well-armored attack helicopter, and Battroid mode was as tough as a main battle tank.

This way, a VF that has armor only a fraction of the thickness of a Destroid's can acquire similar defensive ability.

The VB-6 Konig Monster in Macross Frontier was an improved type that uses a next-generation energy conversion armor technology that boasts defensive capabilities rivaling the armor of a heavy cruiser-class space warship when operating at maximum potential.  It's even more Tonka-tough than the already incredibly durable VFs in common use (which are themselves several times as durable as the VF-1, which was by all accounts at least three times the toughness of a main battle tank).

It's broadly similar to technologies like Star Trek: Enterprise's polarized hull plating, Gundam SEED's phase shift armor, and Gundam 00's structural GN fields.

 

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

Erm... Pinpoint Barrier equipped Monster Destroids show up in the game "Macross M3".  The Energy Conversion Armour that Seito's referring to is different.  Instead of only protecting a couple of small areas, it makes ALL of the armour stronger.

 

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

Let's not forget the very first appearance of the Konig Monster: the VF-X2 game, where it is a playable VF (rotates slow as hell...)

 

As for the VB-6 and Invid... I recommend you take a look at the opening animation for the VF-X2 game.  It shows how it deals with pesky tanks... it steps on them!  LOL

(the VB-6 stuff starts at around 1:10.  But you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch from the start! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GZIWmxMoJk )

 

You guys are such a big help! Thanks! Way better than those wikias! All the more adding to the mythos of the mech's pure awesomeness!  I also saw what it did to the tank.........OUCH! 

[deathzealot]

Yeah, @Seto Kaiba,

Have a question for you. I was reading through the VB-6 entry at Macross Mecha Manuel once more thanks to current conversation going on right now and I noticed something. It says the Konig Monster has a single light gun (vulcan gun?) in the "chin" of the shuttle mode and GERWALK mode. However, I remember seeing both in Frontier, and later in Delta that it sports some sort of vulcan gun or gatling cannon built into the arms of the unit. Since the one time we see the Destroid mode of the Konig in Frontier it's blazing away with arm-mounted guns, and during Delta it fired a similar gun at a Draken-III destroying it before landing onto an asteroid in GERWALK mode were it proceeds to one-shot a Windermere Cruiser with its big guns. So does the later variant (2050/2060) of the Konig Monster have added guns in the arms?

20 hours ago, fenrir72 said:

Just imagine having it go against the Invid ( I know different franchise)...........

1 hour ago, fenrir72 said:

You guys are such a big help! Thanks! Way better than those wikias! All the more adding to the mythos of the mech's pure awesomeness!  I also saw what it did to the tank.........OUCH! 

Great. Thanks so much now I am getting "ideas" for an old Robotech story idea I had years ago. Sigh.

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Have a question for you. I was reading through the VB-6 entry at Macross Mecha Manuel once more thanks to current conversation going on right now and I noticed something. It says the Konig Monster has a single light gun (vulcan gun?) in the "chin" of the shuttle mode and GERWALK mode. However, I remember seeing both in Frontier, and later in Delta that it sports some sort of vulcan gun or gatling cannon built into the arms of the unit.

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheet for the VB-6 Konig Monster in the Macross Frontier movies does note that the craft has many armament variations to deal with diverse combat situations, though it doesn't even mention the guns in question.

I'm actually rather glad for this particular topic, since I get to go back to one of the few actual good moments in Macross Delta and a much better series in general (Macross Frontier).

What's interesting here is that there is very clearly more than one set of unlisted guns on the 2050s-2060s era Konig Monster.

Both 1st Lt. Canaria Berstein and Cpt. Alberto Larazabal's VB-6 Konig Monsters are depicted firing two different sets of unlisted machine guns.  One set is a pair of machine guns that appear, from the muzzle flashes, to be set into the sides of the nose near the vernier thrusters in Shuttle mode.  The second is the aforementioned set of guns that're mounted in the arms in GERWALK and Destroid modes.  There's an up-close view of Cpt. Larazabal firing the nose guns on his Konig Monster at about 9:50 in Macross Delta's 22nd episode, but they made their debut in Macross Frontier's 7th.

As to what they are, it's hard to say... since the main Variable Fighters in service around this time seem to have been designed with an eye towards easily exchanging even the internal weapons systems.  For example, the VF-171 and VF-25's fixed-forward guns could be either beam machine guns or conventional machine guns.  There's often little obvious difference, visually, between the two.  Given the space constraints in the VB-6's nose, I'd expect them to be beam machine guns... but it's anyone's guess really.  The sound effect used is the one that's normally used for solid-ammo machine guns though, for what little that's worth.

[Seto Kaiba]

One interesting detail - well, interesting to a detail-obsessed mecha nut like me - that I noticed while I was reviewing footage to answer the above question is that the Brisingr Alliance's member worlds seem to be equipping their local New UN Forces defense forces differently.  From the sound effects used, the New UN Forces from Voldor and Al Shahal have outfitted their VF-171s to use conventional machine guns on their forward gun mounts, while Randor's VF-171s seem to be using beam machine guns.

 

 

[deathzealot]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheet for the VB-6 Konig Monster in the Macross Frontier movies does note that the craft has many armament variations to deal with diverse combat situations, though it doesn't even mention the guns in question.

Interesting. Like the Trailer Version of the machine with the heavy arm guns of a Cheyenne II which has already been mentioned.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What's interesting here is that there is very clearly more than one set of unlisted guns on the 2050s-2060s era Konig Monster.

Oh. Now that is interesting. So I was not seeing things then.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Both 1st Lt. Canaria Berstein and Cpt. Alberto Larazabal's VB-6 Konig Monsters are depicted firing two different sets of unlisted machine guns.  One set is a pair of machine guns that appear, from the muzzle flashes, to be set into the sides of the nose near the vernier thrusters in Shuttle mode.  The second is the aforementioned set of guns that're mounted in the arms in GERWALK and Destroid modes.  There's an up-close view of Cpt. Larazabal firing the nose guns on his Konig Monster at about 9:50 in Macross Delta's 22nd episode, but they made their debut in Macross Frontier's 7th.

I have also reviewed both of the scenes mentioned myself and does it look like the Nose Turret wasn't on either of those units? Also. I wonder what happened with the Dulfim after Episode Seven of Frontier. Since I do not think we see it afterwards at all. The Kaitos gets destroyed during the episode by the Knight Class ship appearing at the end of the battle but the Dulfim survives but after that we do not see it again. Was there anything about it in the novelization?

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As to what they are, it's hard to say... since the main Variable Fighters in service around this time seem to have been designed with an eye towards easily exchanging even the internal weapons systems.  For example, the VF-171 and VF-25's fixed-forward guns could be either beam machine guns or conventional machine guns.  There's often little obvious difference, visually, between the two.  Given the space constraints in the VB-6's nose, I'd expect them to be beam machine guns... but it's anyone's guess really.  The sound effect used is the one that's normally used for solid-ammo machine guns though, for what little that's worth.

Huh. I knew about the Messiah's forward guns but did not know it was also in the VF-171 as well. That is interesting. Speaking of which with the Variable Fighters introduced during the last two series we no longer have them sporting laser guns as head guns instead now being called beam guns. Though they still kind look like lasers when firing. So is there any difference between these new beam guns and the old head lasers?

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One interesting detail - well, interesting to a detail-obsessed mecha nut like me - that I noticed while I was reviewing footage to answer the above question is that the Brisingr Alliance's member worlds seem to be equipping their local New UN Forces defense forces differently.  From the sound effects used, the New UN Forces from Voldor and Al Shahal have outfitted their VF-171s to use conventional machine guns on their forward gun mounts, while Randor's VF-171s seem to be using beam machine guns.

Now that is interesting. For it does make sense. Though I wonder why they didn't throw some of the VF-171EX units in there to make things interesting.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Interesting. Like the Trailer Version of the machine with the heavy arm guns of a Cheyenne II which has already been mentioned.

Somehow, that one never made it into the final cut of the movie.

 

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

I have also reviewed both of the scenes mentioned myself and does it look like the Nose Turret wasn't on either of those units?

Yup, they're reskins of the same CG model... and the turret is visibly present and accounted for (see 7:27 in Macross Frontier ep7).  The turret isn't exposed in Shuttle mode, you can only see it clearly in the other two modes.

 

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Also. I wonder what happened with the Dulfim after Episode Seven of Frontier. Since I do not think we see it afterwards at all. The Kaitos gets destroyed during the episode by the Knight Class ship appearing at the end of the battle but the Dulfim survives but after that we do not see it again. Was there anything about it in the novelization?

IINM, the last we really see or hear of the Dulfim is at around 6:48 in Macross Frontier Ep8... where she's shown to be alongside one of the Macross Frontier's Island-class environment ships.  It's mentioned that the Dulfim's crew had been interviewed about the fate of the Macross Galaxy but that they didn't really know anything useful, and that they were currently quarantined and awaiting medical examination due to the risk of V-type infection.  They just kind of drop off the face of the story after that, except in the movie version where those ships and the refugee ships they escorted carried the cyborgs who hijacked Battle Frontier.

It's been a good while since I last reviewed the novelization and I'm well overdue for a reread, but I don't recall anything specific being mentioned about the fate of the ship or her crew.

 

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. I knew about the Messiah's forward guns but did not know it was also in the VF-171 as well.

They're the ones on either side of the cockpit.

 

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

That is interesting. Speaking of which with the Variable Fighters introduced during the last two series we no longer have them sporting laser guns as head guns instead now being called beam guns. Though they still kind look like lasers when firing. So is there any difference between these new beam guns and the old head lasers?

Well, almost all of them... there's an eccentricity in the Macross Frontier movie materials that list a different model of coaxial gun on the VF-25's monitor turret (head) that's a laser weapon instead of a beam weapon.

Laser weaponry is exactly what the name indicates: they produce an extremely intense, tightly focused beam of light that damages the target by heating the target's surface until the target's surface burns, melts, or evaporates.  They're very limited weapons in terms of stopping power and top out below the other types of energy weapon in Macross, but they're an extremely precise class of weapon because they fire a tightly focused light beam at, well, the speed of light.  Laser weapons can also be made extremely compact, which is a virtue for something with an internal structure as complicated as a VF's or as cramped as a battle pod or battle suit.

Beam weaponry, on the other hand, is an umbrella term that refers to two different types of directed energy weapon: particle beam weaponry and dimensional beam weaponry.

Particle beam weapons are weaponized  miniature particle accelerators.  They use electromagnetic fields and electrostatic lenses to focus and accelerate subatomic or atomic particles to relativistic velocities (significant fractions of the speed of light) so that the immense transfer of kinetic energy causes the target's surface to superheat almost instantaneously and a deeper hit might see the beam's charge cause secondary damage to onboard electronics.  The Zentradi make widespread use of electron particle beam weapons as the main weapon of the Regult series battle pod.  Macross publications usually aren't specific about what type of particle beam weaponry humanity favors.

Starting in Macross Frontier, the generic term "beam gun" or "beam cannon" started to be applied to dimensional beam weapons too.  These are the exotic energy weapons that are built on the same technology as the Macross's main gun.  They produce a type of ultra-heavy exotic particle called heavy quantum that exists simultaneously in realspace and in fold space, and when they've got enough of it they use fold waves to cause all of its mass to drop into realspace.  This causes the heavy quantum to collapse in on itself due to the heavy quantum's intense gravity, until it ignites in a fusion reaction.  The ensuing explosion triggered by the fusing heavy quantum is corralled using any of several technologies to make a highly destructive beam of fast-moving fusion plasma.  This technology is sometimes called a converging energy cannon, super dimension energy cannon, or more recently a heavy quantum reaction beam cannon.  This technology was mostly confined to ship-based gun turrets and the larger "main gun" type systems, but miniaturized versions began showing up on VFs starting with the VF-19 and VF-22.  (I privately suspect the unspecified "impact cannon" technology the Zentradi have is also a miniaturized dimensional beam weapon.)

Where the line has started to blur has mainly been in warship stats... abbreviating "converging beam cannon" down to just "beam cannon".  When a VF is equipped with dimensional beam weapons, they're usually specifically called out as such instead of being referred to by generic terms.  (Macross Delta publications have been a bit hit-or-miss in that regard.)

 

 

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Now that is interesting. For it does make sense. Though I wonder why they didn't throw some of the VF-171EX units in there to make things interesting.

They did, in the gaiden manga Macross Delta Gaiden: Macross E.  The Xaos PMC branch on Pipure uses VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX units... albeit without the MDE beam weaponry and other anti-Vajra add-ons.

[deathzealot]

32 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Somehow, that one never made it into the final cut of the movie.

Yeah I know. Still though it would have been an interesting change I think.

32 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yup, they're reskins of the same CG model... and the turret is visibly present and accounted for (see 7:27 in Macross Frontier ep7).  The turret isn't exposed in Shuttle mode, you can only see it clearly in the other two modes.

Hmm... Now that you mentioned it yeah they are still there. Huh. They never use them at all.

33 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IINM, the last we really see or hear of the Dulfim is at around 6:48 in Macross Frontier Ep8... where she's shown to be alongside one of the Macross Frontier's Island-class environment ships.  It's mentioned that the Dulfim's crew had been interviewed about the fate of the Macross Galaxy but that they didn't really know anything useful, and that they were currently quarantined and awaiting medical examination due to the risk of V-type infection.  They just kind of drop off the face of the story after that, except in the movie version where those ships and the refugee ships they escorted carried the cyborgs who hijacked Battle Frontier.

It's been a good while since I last reviewed the novelization and I'm well overdue for a reread, but I don't recall anything specific being mentioned about the fate of the ship or her crew.

Still it is a shame. It would have been interesting to see it appearing like at the final battle or before then.

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They're the ones on either side of the cockpit.

Sorry. I meant capable of being swapped. I am aware of those guns.

35 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, almost all of them... there's an eccentricity in the Macross Frontier movie materials that list a different model of coaxial gun on the VF-25's monitor turret (head) that's a laser weapon instead of a beam weapon.

Laser weaponry is exactly what the name indicates: they produce an extremely intense, tightly focused beam of light that damages the target by heating the target's surface until the target's surface burns, melts, or evaporates.  They're very limited weapons in terms of stopping power and top out below the other types of energy weapon in Macross, but they're an extremely precise class of weapon because they fire a tightly focused light beam at, well, the speed of light.  Laser weapons can also be made extremely compact, which is a virtue for something with an internal structure as complicated as a VF's or as cramped as a battle pod or battle suit.

Beam weaponry, on the other hand, is an umbrella term that refers to two different types of directed energy weapon: particle beam weaponry and dimensional beam weaponry.

Particle beam weapons are weaponized  miniature particle accelerators.  They use electromagnetic fields and electrostatic lenses to focus and accelerate subatomic or atomic particles to relativistic velocities (significant fractions of the speed of light) so that the immense transfer of kinetic energy causes the target's surface to superheat almost instantaneously and a deeper hit might see the beam's charge cause secondary damage to onboard electronics.  The Zentradi make widespread use of electron particle beam weapons as the main weapon of the Regult series battle pod.  Macross publications usually aren't specific about what type of particle beam weaponry humanity favors.

Starting in Macross Frontier, the generic term "beam gun" or "beam cannon" started to be applied to dimensional beam weapons too.  These are the exotic energy weapons that are built on the same technology as the Macross's main gun.  They produce a type of ultra-heavy exotic particle called heavy quantum that exists simultaneously in realspace and in fold space, and when they've got enough of it they use fold waves to cause all of its mass to drop into realspace.  This causes the heavy quantum to collapse in on itself due to the heavy quantum's intense gravity, until it ignites in a fusion reaction.  The ensuing explosion triggered by the fusing heavy quantum is corralled using any of several technologies to make a highly destructive beam of fast-moving fusion plasma.  This technology is sometimes called a converging energy cannon, super dimension energy cannon, or more recently a heavy quantum reaction beam cannon.  This technology was mostly confined to ship-based gun turrets and the larger "main gun" type systems, but miniaturized versions began showing up on VFs starting with the VF-19 and VF-22.  (I privately suspect the unspecified "impact cannon" technology the Zentradi have is also a miniaturized dimensional beam weapon.)

Where the line has started to blur has mainly been in warship stats... abbreviating "converging beam cannon" down to just "beam cannon".  When a VF is equipped with dimensional beam weapons, they're usually specifically called out as such instead of being referred to by generic terms.  (Macross Delta publications have been a bit hit-or-miss in that regard.)

Interesting. Still I wonder why the NUNS started dropping Laser Monitor Turrets for small Beam Guns.

36 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They did, in the gaiden manga Macross Delta Gaiden: Macross E.  The Xaos PMC branch on Pipure uses VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX units... albeit without the MDE beam weaponry and other anti-Vajra add-ons.

I am aware of that darn pink-painted thing, I meant in the series itself. Would have been interesting. Though I wonder is that Radome Dish an optional equipment for the VF-171EX or is it a modification?

[Seto Kaiba]

27 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Interesting. Still I wonder why the NUNS started dropping Laser Monitor Turrets for small Beam Guns.

Smart money says it was all about stopping power.

Laser weapons are compact, simple, robust, and extremely precise... but their maximum achievable output power is relatively low compared to particle beam weapons due to the way the stimulated emission of photons is achieved.  Particle beam weaponry's a directed energy weapon technology that's more conducive to scaling up power without necessarily significantly increasing size... but it's also more complex and finicky.

More firepower would have been necessary as VFs and other mecha adopted new, more durable composite materials, improved energy conversion armor systems, and energy weapon-specific countermeasures like ablative coatings painted over the armor's surface to dampen the power of energy weapon hits.

 

27 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

I am aware of that darn pink-painted thing, I meant in the series itself. Would have been interesting. Though I wonder is that Radome Dish an optional equipment for the VF-171EX or is it a modification?

That was special equipment manufactured to Dr. Elma Hoyly's specifications as prototype Tactical Sound Unit hardware.  Normal VF-171EX units look the same as they did in Frontier, minus the anti-Vajra weapons.

[aurance]

I hope in the next series, they’ll switch to a new lineage of fighters. I love the entire YF-24 derivative line but it might be time for something new as the hero fighter.