Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Sir Galahad®]

Can pilots still exit the VF in Battroid mode for modern valkyries?

[JB0]

If I recall, that was how Hayate got his jetbot in episode 1 of Delta. Injured pilot was removed, and he climbed in through the still-open hatch.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Can pilots still exit the VF in Battroid mode for modern valkyries?

Yeah.  We see Alto do it in the first Macross Frontier movie while he's fighting that giant Vajra that looks like a preying mantis... the cockpit's located on the back, under the plate with the wing joints on it, so that just lifts up and he is able to drop down and out in EX-Gear.  I'd assume it works the same for the VF-27, which has the same transformation.

The VF-171 has the same cockpit hatch as the VF-17 in Macross Delta, which is how Hayate is able to get into a downed battroid.

Not clear on how the VF-31's would work, but I'd assume the escape capability exists.

[Valkyrie Driver]

3 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Can pilots still exit the VF in Battroid mode for modern valkyries?

Also don't forget the hatch on the VF-19F/S/Kai, which we see Basara use every single time to gets in his Fire Valkyrie. I can't help but wonder if it's the same on the VF-19A/B/C/D/E considering that seems to be covered by a thruster bank...

Or The VF-1's neck hatch that we saw used in SDFM episode 1 or 2.

Also, from a design standpoint, you'd have to have a method of egress from such a machine, otherwise it would become a deathtrap. 

[Podtastic]

16 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Also don't forget the hatch on the VF-19F/S/Kai, which we see Basara use every single time to gets in his Fire Valkyrie. I can't help but wonder if it's the same on the VF-19A/B/C/D/E considering that seems to be covered by a thruster bank...

Or The VF-1's neck hatch that we saw used in SDFM episode 1 or 2.

Also, from a design standpoint, you'd have to have a method of egress from such a machine, otherwise it would become a deathtrap. 

You mean like when Hikaru had to eject when his battroid was getting mothered by Breetai?

To put Breetai's strength/durability in context, just how powerful/tough was that Batrroid? Just how impressive  of a feat was his smacking it around and ripping off/crushing pieces of its armour - compared to his tanking that nearby explosion?

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Podtastic
typo

[JB0]

Even the VF-1 is wildly durable by modern standards.

I think the original Valkyrie's armor is supposed to be superior to a modern main battle tank. And Britai kinda tore through it like cardboard.  That's sorta like beating the crap out of an Abrams with a crowbar, and ACTUALLY destroying it.

...

And then the VF self-destructed in Britai's face, and he just got up and dusted himself off. He's PRETTY DARN TOUGH.

[Master Dex]

10 hours ago, JB0 said:

Even the VF-1 is wildly durable by modern standards.

I think the original Valkyrie's armor is supposed to be superior to a modern main battle tank. And Britai kinda tore through it like cardboard.  That's sorta like beating the crap out of an Abrams with a crowbar, and ACTUALLY destroying it.

...

And then the VF self-destructed in Britai's face, and he just got up and dusted himself off. He's PRETTY DARN TOUGH.

Not to mention that in that same episode he also walked across the outside of his ship in the VACUUM OF SPACE for several minutes without dying or losing consciousness. The dude is no joke. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm really curious about the VF-31 series. What information do we have on it? I'm really curious since I just received my Mirage VF-31C. 

[Master Dex]

4 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'm really curious about the VF-31 series. What information do we have on it? I'm really curious since I just received my Mirage VF-31C. 

I could have sworn Seto broached this already in this thread, but it might have been in the newbie questions thread most recently.

He'll give you a low down on what we do have, but I know from reading his list already that it's... not that much. We have details.. but some conflicts, and in general far less than we got with the VF-25. Even though there is a Master File for VF-31, according to Seto it was surprisingly bare on hard data and mostly covered the Siegfried customs Xaos used and almost ignored the Kairos. All of which is a real shame.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'll post the long explanation later today, I'm getting ready to fly out for vacation (including a stop in LA for SDCon this saturday).

[ManhattanProject972]

If you guys were in charge of defense for a migrant fleet or colony planet what would your main force consist of?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

On 10/23/2017 at 2:33 AM, Podtastic said:

You mean like when Hikaru had to eject when his battroid was getting mothered by Breetai?

Most VFs have a couple different ejection mechanisms.  The VF-1 Valkyrie could eject just the pilot's seat and deploy a parachute in atmosphere, or use verniers built into the chair in space, or it could eject the entire cockpit block as an escape capsule.

 

Quote

To put Breetai's strength/durability in context, just how powerful/tough was that Batrroid? Just how impressive  of a feat was his smacking it around and ripping off/crushing pieces of its armour - compared to his tanking that nearby explosion?

Considering his size and mass, it isn't that impressive... force equaling mass times acceleration and all.

Mind you, the armor plates he was buckling and bending through sheer brute force had an equivalent strength to three meters of rolled homogenous steel armor.  It's hard to put this into a usable scale for a miclone, but this would be like something along the lines of bending an inch-thick steel bar by hand.  Possible, but you'd need to be VERY strong to do it.

 

 

On 10/23/2017 at 2:50 AM, JB0 said:

I think the original Valkyrie's armor is supposed to be superior to a modern main battle tank. And Britai kinda tore through it like cardboard.  That's sorta like beating the crap out of an Abrams with a crowbar, and ACTUALLY destroying it.

Yeah, the VF-0's was comparable to a modern main battle tank while in Battroid mode (with over 90% of the turbine generator output devoted to it).  The VF-1 Valkyrie was about three times that.

 

On 10/23/2017 at 2:50 AM, JB0 said:

And then the VF self-destructed in Britai's face, and he just got up and dusted himself off. He's PRETTY DARN TOUGH.

He does note that he's literally built tougher than the average Zentradi, but he's pretty amazingly durable...

 

 

23 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'm really curious about the VF-31 series. What information do we have on it? I'm really curious since I just received my Mirage VF-31C. 

Very little, I'm afraid... tho didn't I answer this one not too long ago?

We know that it's a local development by Surya Aerospace, a joint venture of the Brisingr Alliance branches of Shinsei Industry, LAI, Feifeng, and Bharat.  It's tipped to be the next main (5th Generation) fighter of the Brisingr Alliance's New UN Forces and expected to go into mass production and begin replacing the Alliance's aging VF-171-II Nightmare Pluses at some point in 2069 or 2070.  At present, a trial production lot of VF-31A Kairos units is being evaluated in the field by the Xaos Corporation's PMC Brisingr Cluster HQ on Ragna.  A fair amount of its component parts are off-the-shelf hardware originally developed for the Macross Frontier fleet's VF-25.  The only production-intent variants known to exist are the VF-31A and VF-31B, nothing is known about the VF-31B or how it differs from the VF-31A.  The basic specs writeup is also available detailing weapons, engine thrust, etc.  On the whole, it's a late entry into the 5th Generation by an isolated local government and it doesn't really have a lot to make it stand out in the crowd.

Five VF-31A units were modified by Xaos Valkyrie Works to create the VF-31 Siegfried customs used by Delta Flight.  They were retrofitted with detuned versions of the YF-30's engines, reduced firepower, and various customizations to make them work well in close air support of Walkure.

 

18 minutes ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

If you guys were in charge of defense for a migrant fleet or colony planet what would your main force consist of?

In what timeframe?  That's a question with a LOT of potential answers depending on when we're talking about...

[Focslain]

57 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In what timeframe?  That's a question with a LOT of potential answers depending on when we're talking about...

Out of curiosity, let's say mid-way between Frontier and Delta with your migration fleet launch being two years after the 7th fleet left Earth. 

[azrael]

4 hours ago, Focslain said:

Out of curiosity, let's say mid-way between Frontier and Delta with your migration fleet launch being two years after the 7th fleet left Earth. 

Limited or unlimited resources?

[Valkyrie Driver]

5 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

If you guys were in charge of defense for a migrant fleet or colony planet what would your main force consist of?

 

3 hours ago, Focslain said:

Out of curiosity, let's say mid-way between Frontier and Delta with your migration fleet launch being two years after the 7th fleet left Earth. 

My main force would probably consist of a mix of VF-19EF/A and VF-171-II fighters. The VF-171-II is pretty much the in-universe standard, and is far superior I would probably Augment my forces with a smattering of other, more specialized craft. My organization would probably look something like this:

Carrier Air Group:

2 Squadrons of VF-171-II Fighters (VF)(Fleet Defense, 24 ships)

2 Squadrons of VF-19EF/A Fighters (VFA)(Strike Fighters, 24 ships)

1 Squadron of VA-3 Attackers (VA)(Medium Attack, 14 ships)

1 Squadron of RVF-171-II fighters (VAW)(Early Warning, 4-6 ships)

1 Squadron of VA-3 Attackers (VS)(Anti Shipping, 8 Ships)

1 Squadron of EVA-3 Attackers (VAQ)(Electronic warfare, 4-6 ships)

1 Squadron of Search and Rescue craft

1 Detachment of a larger non transformable ELINT craft

1 Detachment of Cargo craft

I modeled it off of the 1992-2000 organization of US Navy Carrier Air Wings. This is of course assuming that I was requisitioning the replacements with the appropriate resources. Some of the designs are older, but I felt that this would be the most cost effective mixture of craft.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Focslain said:

Out of curiosity, let's say mid-way between Frontier and Delta with your migration fleet launch being two years after the 7th fleet left Earth. 

OK, that's enough to work with... so, a 3rd Generation emigrant fleet centered on one or more City-class habitat ship with logistical support vessels and a military escort detail of approximately 180 warships and 2,600 combat aircraft.

Fleet composition-wise, I think I would skew somewhat closer to the Macross-5 fleet composition with fewer dedicated logistical support ships and more City-class ships with the attendant Battle-class supercarriers.  I also think I would probably tend to use a greater number of Ghosts as first-responders to minimize losses of manned craft while feeling out potential threats.

All told, it'd probably look something like this:
60x Northampton-class stealth frigate (standard type)
20x Northampton-class stealth frigate (air defense type)
10x Northampton-class stealth frigate (radar picket type)
10x Northampton-class Gefion-subclass stealth light carrier
20x Osaka-class¹ stealth cruiser
40x Guantanamo-class Advanced ARMD
20x Uraga-class escort battle carrier
4x Saratoga III-type stealth escort carrier
1x Macross Quarter-class variable space carrier
3x Battle-class space stealth attack carrier w/ 3x City-class habitat ship
1x Three Star-class factory ship
2x Sunnyflower-class agricultural ship
1x Hollywood-class amusement ship (w/ Galaxy Network transciever)

Given that the stated timeframe would put us right in the middle of the introduction of 5th Generation VFs, I would be inclined to go with an air/aerospace force composition that would be 15-20% unmanned fighters.  Probably about 15-17% QF-4000 Ghosts, while the remaining 3-5% would be the more versatile but limited Neo Glaug.  The Ghosts would definitely be the first responders, as you can get three QF-4000s for what you'd pay for one VF-171, and there's much less fuss if one gets shot down since it wouldn't incur any loss of life of a valuable trained pilot.  The other 80% would be manned fighters.  Mostly the VF-171-II, but with as many units updated to the VF-171-III spec as humanly possible, with particular priority given to the fighter squadrons attached to carriers that serve in the fleet's advance scouting groups.  Definitely transitioning to a VF-24A monkey model around that period, since that's a fighter on which almost all the actual development is already done ahead of time, and for which the engineering was done with a much higher level of performance in mind so it's over-engineered, thus making it more robust.  Attackers would be a mix of VA-3s and VB-171s, and reconnaissance planes would be a mix of RVF-171s and a recon model VF-24.

The one thing I would definitely insist upon would be having fighters permanently stationed aboard most of the frigates.  We know that the Northampton-class can carry up to a full platoon of VFs without modification or sacrificing operational endurance.  I think the advance reconnaissance Northampton-class ships would greatly benefit from having a platoon-strength unit of Ghosts kept in their hangar on standby and with each taskforce having at least a Gefion-type or Saratoga-type carrier hanging around as support and an Osaka-class hanging about for added punch, while the proper full-size carriers form part of the skirmish screen around the City-class ships and protected by the air defense-configured frigates.

 

3 hours ago, azrael said:

Limited or unlimited resources?

There's not really any practical situation in which resources would be unlimited for an emigrant fleet... only the Sol system and the other wealthy core systems could reasonably claim to have nigh-unlimited resources thanks to the incredible material processing and manufacturing capabilities they have thanks to the dozens of factory satellites they possess.

 

1. It's from a doujinshi, but it's the only name I've ever seen anyone attempt to tack onto the stealth cruiser from Macross Frontier.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I put together a typical carrier air wing, that would be used across the fleet's carrier craft (Macross Quarters, Battle Class Carriers, Uraga Class). Most of my picket ships (Northamptons and Guantanamos) would make greater use of Ghost fighters for BARCAP and longer ranged missions. 

I'd probably have my fleet's ship composition be a Slightly different from Seto's. Considering that I would make more use of the Macross Quarter Class. I'd also abandon the use of the most of the Specialized ships (Sunnyflower, Riviera, Einstein, Hollywood) in favor of using the Island-type configuration.

• 60x Northampton -class stealth frigate (standard type)
• 20x Northampton -class stealth frigate (air defense type)
• 10x Northampton -class stealth frigate (radar picket type)
• 10x Northampton -class Gefion -subclass stealth light carrier
• 20x stealth cruiser
• 40x Guantanamo -class Advanced ARMD
• 20x Uraga -class escort battle carrier
• 4x Macross Quarter -class variable space carrier
• 3x Battle -class space stealth attack carrier w/ 3x Island -class habitat ship
• 1x Three Star -class factory ship

My Carriers would make use of this as my Primary Carrier Air Wing configuration

• 2x Fighter Squadrons (VF) of 12x VF-171-II/III's (transitioning to VF-25's)
• 2x Strike Fighter Squadrons (VFA) of 12x VF-19EF/A's 
• 1x Medium Attack Squadron (VA) of 12x VA-3B's
• 1x Electronic Attack Squadron (VAQ) of 6x EVA-3B's
• 1x Airborne Early Warning Squadron (VAW) of 6x RVF-171-II (transitioning to RVF-25's)
• Various SAR and Support Craft

My picket ships, as I said, would likely trade the VF-19EF/A's for AIF-7S Ghost Fighters becoming the primary fighter squadrons, while the VF-171-II/III's or VF-25's would become the Strike Fighter Squadrons. The VF-19EF/A's would essentially take the place of Special Operations VF's. The VF-171's and VF-25's being more versatile, would perform in the role of main line fighters. 

[Zx31]

What roll does the VB-6 fill?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'd probably have my fleet's ship composition be a Slightly different from Seto's. Considering that I would make more use of the Macross Quarter Class.

I wanted to keep the number down, given that the Macross Quarter-class just barely out of the testing phase in the timeframe we're talking about... and also probably a good deal more expensive than the priciest conventional warship in the New UN Spacy's fleets, the Uraga-class escort battle carrier.

 

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'd also abandon the use of the most of the Specialized ships (Sunnyflower, Riviera, Einstein, Hollywood) in favor of using the Island-type configuration.

The Island Cluster-class is a 5th Generation emigrant ship design, it wouldn't have existed yet in the timeframe we're talking about WRT the hypothetical fleet's launch.  The Macross-11 type still needed the logistical support ships.

 

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

My Carriers would make use of this as my Primary Carrier Air Wing configuration

• 2x Fighter Squadrons (VF) of 12x VF-171-II/III's (transitioning to VF-25's)
• 2x Strike Fighter Squadrons (VFA) of 12x VF-19EF/A's 
• 1x Medium Attack Squadron (VA) of 12x VA-3B's
• 1x Electronic Attack Squadron (VAQ) of 6x EVA-3B's
• 1x Airborne Early Warning Squadron (VAW) of 6x RVF-171-II (transitioning to RVF-25's)
• Various SAR and Support Craft

Squadron organization's a bit different in the UN and New UN Spacy, given that their lowest level of organization is a platoon made up of 3-4 aircraft.  As a result, squadrons are a bit larger at 15-24 aircraft apiece.  Carriers also aren't quite as capacious, as they're carrying supplies to keep fighters operating in space in the long term and also have to make room for their own fuel stocks and an array of essential systems oceangoing ships don't need.  Your typical space carrier (the Guantanamo-class) has enough space for about 50 aircraft (2-3 squadrons worth), and the larger and rarer Uraga-class has enough space for 75 aircraft (3-5 squadrons).

(Then, of course, you've got the other extreme... the Macross-class and Battle-class ships with space for several hundred fighters divvied up among multiple carrier air wings.  A ship like the Battle Frontier having enough space for 30-50 squadrons.)

 

43 minutes ago, Zx31 said:

What roll does the VB-6 fill?

It's a medium bomber and mobile anti-warship turret.

[Andras]

On 10/25/2017 at 12:31 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Mostly the VF-171-II, but with as many units updated to the VF-171-III spec as humanly possible, with particular priority given to the fighter squadrons attached to carriers that serve in the fleet's advance scouting groups.

Can you explain what the -II and -III indicate? Is that the EX and EX Super, or improvements in the basic VF-171 airframe?

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, Andras said:

Can you explain what the -II and -III indicate? Is that the EX and EX Super, or improvements in the basic VF-171 airframe?

They're production block numbers.

Like real world militaries, the UN Forces and New UN Forces designation system includes production block numbers to distinguish minor equipment improvements between production lots at the manufacturer.  Their designation system is modeled principally on the United States tri-service aircraft designation system, so block numbers come after the variant letter if you're giving an aircraft's full identification.  One area where they differ is that the US often counts up by tens (10, 20, 30, etc.), while Macross tends to count block numbers by ones (1, 2, 3, etc.).  The VF-171 Nightmare Plus is unusual in that, like the equally unusual F/A-18 Hornet, it uses roman numerals for its block numbers.

Block I for the VF-171 was the 2048 initial production type flown by Ozma Lee in his flashback, and the first version adopted.  The Block II version is a 2055 update to the VF-171 that appears in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta.  Block III, or specifically Block IIIF, is the 2059 upgrade from the Macross Frontier movies that roughly corresponds to the VF-171EX but without the modification of the cockpit and nose section that gave the EX variant the "hero" bubble canopy.

[Andras]

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

 

[ManhattanProject972]

If by some chance the SV-52 was the main VF in Space War I instead of the VF-1, how do you think the SDF-1 would've fared against the Zentradi?

I say Max's rescue mission wouldn't have went as smoothly as it did, due to probably not being able to conceal its wings as well in battroid mode.

[Valkyrie Driver]

9 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

If by some chance the SV-52 was the main VF in Space War I instead of the VF-1, how do you think the SDF-1 would've fared against the Zentradi?

I say Max's rescue mission wouldn't have went as smoothly as it did, due to probably not being able to conceal its wings as well in battroid mode.

If I'm not mistaken the VF-1 had already been chosen and was in production around the time of the Mayan Island incident. I think that your assessment of max's rescue mission is correct. However, the overall effectiveness of the SV-52 is questionable compared to the VF-1. I'm not sure that it would have been a better craft, not to mention the size difference, the VF-1 was 8 ish meters shorter than the SV-51 (which I think is exactly the same dimensions) in fighter mode. As for capabilities, I'd have to assume that the SV-52's would be roughly on par with the VF-1.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

If by some chance the SV-52 was the main VF in Space War I instead of the VF-1, how do you think the SDF-1 would've fared against the Zentradi?

It's hard to say, since there is no official or useful information available about the actual Sv-52... to the extent that we can't say with any certainty that one was even built in the official chronology.  Macross the Ride's Sv-52 is not an actual Sv-52, it's an imitation of one that is (at least according to its owner) an extensively modified and modernized Sv-51 that belonged to her grandfather.  The Variable Fighter Master File coverage alleges that the Sv-52 was never completed, and that the partially complete Sv-5ss got diverted into immediate service after being retrofitted for conventional turbofan jet engines as the Sv-51Ω.

 

 

13 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

I say Max's rescue mission wouldn't have went as smoothly as it did, due to probably not being able to conceal its wings as well in battroid mode.

 I would expect that the fact that the battroid is over 18m tall would've been a significantly more serious problem with attempting to mug a Zentradi soldier for his clothes and disguise the battroid with them.

 

[Valkyrie Driver]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 I would expect that the fact that the battroid is over 18m tall would've been a significantly more serious problem with attempting to mug a Zentradi soldier for his clothes and disguise the battroid with them.

Is it because 18m is too tall? Because the VF-1 battroid fit quite nicely.

[dizman]

59 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Is it because 18m is too tall? Because the VF-1 battroid fit quite nicely.

Yup, the VF-1 is apparently 12.68 meters tall in battroid.

[Seto Kaiba]

56 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Is it because 18m is too tall? Because the VF-1 battroid fit quite nicely.

In a word, "you said it".

With the largest (command type) Zentradi being around 13m tall, an 18m+ tall battroid isn't going to fit gracefully (or at all) into a stolen uniform the way the ~13m tall VF-1 battroid did.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I don't know if we answered this in this thread, but how big is the Macross Elysion? In comparison to a Macross Quarter or a new Macross Class. Is the Elysion a new class of Macross?

[Master Dex]

It's clearly a distinct class. What isn't known is if it is one of a kind or a series. It appears to be somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 the size of a Macross class.

[Seto Kaiba]

15 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I don't know if we answered this in this thread, but how big is the Macross Elysion? In comparison to a Macross Quarter or a new Macross Class. Is the Elysion a new class of Macross?

It does appear to be a distinct class of ship, and the one frame of reference for it that keeps cropping up is that its height is roughly equal to the Burj Khalifa in Dubai (~830m).  That would make it somewhere in the vicinity of 1/2 of a Macross's size.

[sketchley]

On 2017-10-28 at 5:55 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

It's hard to say, since there is no official or useful information available about the actual Sv-52... to the extent that we can't say with any certainty that one was even built in the official chronology.

If memory serves, the first time I came across the Sv-52 was in Macross Chronicle, and the only 'statistical' data that accompanied it was that the conventional turbine engines were replaced with thermonuclear ones.

Going back to the original question: as the Sv-51 suffers from a limited fuel load, the Sv-52 would too.  Therefore, the VF-1 is still better because it has the capability to be extensively developed with FAST Packs and Super Parts for increased endurance (range + time on the battlefield).  While the Sv-51 does have something akin to Super Parts, there are significantly more, and larger ones for the VF-1 (I'm not disagreeing that new packs could be developed for the Sv-52, the problem is that due to the transformation mechanism, there isn't as many places to mount them on the airframe!).

[JB0]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Going back to the original question: as the Sv-51 suffers from a limited fuel load, the Sv-52 would too.

Aaaactually, the Sv-51's fuel issue was because it used jet engines instead of harnessing the power of the atom(just like the VF-0). So the Sv-52 wouldn't have fuel issues.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

Aaaactually, the Sv-51's fuel issue was because it used jet engines instead of harnessing the power of the atom(just like the VF-0). So the Sv-52 wouldn't have fuel issues.

It depends where the vehicle is being used.  In short, the Sv-52 would have the same endurance problems as the VF-1 does... in space.

(I thought that the regime was obvious, as I went on about FAST Packs.  And as the (original) VF-1 FAST Packs can only be used in space... )

Edited October 29, 2017 by sketchley

[JB0]

Fair enough. I retract the complaint.