Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

fficially, no.

Unofficially... there's the dojinshi series "銀河の戦艦” put out by 太陽帝国 (aka FANKY).  They've produced 4 books so far.

Those are fun... they run counter to a lot of official specs for those ships, but they're still a good source of information for something like an RPG campaign.

[Bolt]

This can't be right..

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Bolt said:

This can't be right..

May I inquire what about it strikes you as incorrect?

If it's the size of the SF-3A Lancer II or QF-3000E Ghost, they've always been those sizes... going all the way back to the 1984 Sky Angels tech manual.

[Bolt]

I never thought the ghost was larger than the VF-1..

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Bolt said:

I never thought the ghost was larger than the VF-1..

Oh yeah, it's HUGE... in Macross 7 Trash, 1st Lt. Heuer owns or at least has access to one that's been converted for manned use with a fairly roomy two-man side-by-side cockpit.

 

[Bolt]

Wow. The 1/72 scale version doesn't measure out that big..

[Seto Kaiba]

22 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Wow. The 1/72 scale version doesn't measure out that big..

It's possible the kit maker didn't know... this was kind of obscure knowledge until Macross Chronicle reprinted the stats from Sky Angels.

[JB0]

The Lancer size strikes me as odd. Wasn't that designed as a space fighter? I'd've expected some big fuel tanks in it.

[pengbuzz]

10 minutes ago, JB0 said:

The Lancer size strikes me as odd. Wasn't that designed as a space fighter? I'd've expected some big fuel tanks in it.

Or at least an "AAA" sticker on it (so it could get towed back to base).

Edited March 24, 2020 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

21 minutes ago, JB0 said:

The Lancer size strikes me as odd. Wasn't that designed as a space fighter? I'd've expected some big fuel tanks in it.

More like a space attacker, if we're being honest... it's essentially a manned missile with a VERY powerful but very short-lived thermonuclear rocket engine, a pair of VERY powerful beam guns, and six powerful but very compact thermonuclear reaction missiles.  It's built for hit-and-run attacks on enemy ships with that powerful weaponry, then it coasts for recovery on its next orbit.  The cockpit's equipped with a cold sleep system just in case things go a bit Tango Uniform.

 

11 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Or at least an "AAA" sticker on it (so it could get towed back to base).

It kinda does (see above)...

[Bolt]

The Lancers were pre or post Alien space ship crash lands on island?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

The Lancers were pre or post Alien space ship crash lands on island?

Post.  They were part of the space defenses conceived alongside the ARMD-class.

[JB0]

Okay, that makes sense. I'm imagining them as a space YF-12 now.

[jeniusornome]

Is there a list somewhere of all the VF "cameos" at New Edwards in Macross Plus?

I watched the movie the other night and noticed several fighters in the background in some scenes (VF-17s with trainer colors, I think VF-14s in one scene and maybe a VF-5000?) and was wondering if we knew what they were.

I did see the 17D in trainer colors on the mecha manual page but no mention of the others.

Edited March 25, 2020 by jeniusornome

[Seto Kaiba]

53 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Is there a list somewhere of all the VF "cameos" at New Edwards in Macross Plus?

Not that I am aware, offhand... 

 

Quote

I watched the movie the other night and noticed several fighters in the background in some scenes (VF-17s with trainer colors, I think VF-14s in one scene and maybe a VF-5000?) and was wondering if we knew what they were.

Apart from the obvious presence of VF-11B's, the only readily identifiable non-prototype VFs we see are the "hostage" VF-1J being used on the firing range, a pair of VF-17T Nightmare trainers, and an aircraft most fans generally agree is the Macross 7 PLUS type VF-14 Vampire from the episode "Spiritia Dreaming".  The Macross Mecha Manual additionally lists the VF-5000B and VA-3, but in their case it's because they're first documented in This is Animation Macross Plus despite not actually appearing in the OVA.

There are one or two background aircraft that do not match any known configuration as well, including one that looks like a relative of the VF-X-11 from Advanced Valkyrie.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

Don't remember seeing this. But I'm still glad Hasegawa made it..

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Don't remember seeing this. But I'm still glad Hasegawa made it..

Yeah, the VF-11D Thunderbolt wasn't introduced until late in Macross 7 alongside the Jamming Birds... I don't recall ever seeing an unmodified military spec version, just the Jamming Birds custom version and the civilian custom "Thunder Focus" news Valkyrie.

[Bolt]

Back to the QF-3000.. was it's larger size based on the need for more fuel? Different engine type? More munitions? I would imagine having drone craft similar in size to manned would make more sense. It seems odd ball..The drone craft in Frontier actually got much smaller.

[Bolt]

Another thing I meant to ask about. Any info on this? Looks like trans atmosphere deployment.

[Mommar]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Back to the QF-3000.. was it's larger size based on the need for more fuel? Different engine type? More munitions? I would imagine having drone craft similar in size to manned would make more sense. It seems odd ball..The drone craft in Frontier actually got much smaller.

Modern drones are the size of regular manned craft.  Larger in several instances.

[NightmarePlus]

Damn, i never realized that the QF-3000 was an absolute unit.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Back to the QF-3000.. was it's larger size based on the need for more fuel? Different engine type? More munitions? I would imagine having drone craft similar in size to manned would make more sense. It seems odd ball..The drone craft in Frontier actually got much smaller.

Between Sky Angels and Macross Chronicle, I don't think I've ever seen them actually give a reason for the QF-3000E Ghost being so large... they mention various difficulties which were encountered during development, most prominently cooling, but nothing specifically about why it's such a big bird.

My educated guess would be that, given that the QF-3000 was developed as an all-regime unmanned fighter, the airframe's unusually large size is a product of being designed for all-regime and all-purpose use with a first-gen thermonuclear reaction turbine engine.  They needed to package the FF-1999 thermonuclear reaction turbine engine with a robust-enough cooling system to keep it from overheating in combat operations, enough fuel to sustain combat operations of a reasonable duration (which is like 4-5x as much fuel as in the VF-1's internal tanks), and then all the relevant hardware for the semi-autonomous AI and all the sensors it needs to operate properly.  Then, of course, there's the weaponry... having six 55mm cannons and 12 internal multipurpose missiles is going to take up a fair amount of space too.

(Some write-ups, like Macross Chronicle's first edition, copied an older version of the development history that cited it as having started out as a conventionally-powered unmanned fighter/attack drone that was later converted into an all-regime unit with a thermonuclear engine.)

 

 

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Another thing I meant to ask about. Any info on this? Looks like trans atmosphere deployment.

A pressure casing and booster system intended for underwater launches.

 

 

24 minutes ago, NightmarePlus said:

Damn, i never realized that the QF-3000 was an absolute unit.

Northrom likes its drones thicc.

[Knight26]

On 3/25/2020 at 8:16 AM, Bolt said:

Back to the QF-3000.. was it's larger size based on the need for more fuel? Different engine type? More munitions? I would imagine having drone craft similar in size to manned would make more sense. It seems odd ball..The drone craft in Frontier actually got much smaller.

Having worked on real life drones, my guess would be the following:

QF-3000s were intended as the primary fleet defense fighters for the SDF-1 on long range patrol.  In Miss Macross, Hikaru launched to provide "Ghost Support."  This indicates that the Ghosts were probably kept on station for as long as possible, and therefore had massive fuel reserves in order to maintain CAP (Combat Air Patrol).  Likely, Ghosts would remain out on patrols for over a day at a time, if not longer.  It's possible that the Ghosts might not even land except for repair, we know that the Macross had repair tugs, so refueling tugs might also have been available to go out and refuel the Ghosts as needed.  Manned Valkyrie units would then cycle in and out to provide command and control over the ghosts, basically telling them where to attack via Line Of Site (LOS) links.  Hikaru was supposed to launch with all of Vermilion group, but because he gave them the night off, launched by himself. Ghost Support might also have meant launching a flight of Valkyries to cover the refueling effort going on.  So the Ghosts not assisting Hikaru might have been for that reason, they were busy with the refueling tugs.

Due to their limited AI suites, the QF-3000s were likely lost in large numbers early on and it was decided to just build more VF-1s instead.  The reason we don't see the QF-3000 more in the show is probably a storytelling and budgetary thing.  Also, remember, they were a dark blue and would have been hard to see against the space background, so maybe they were "shown" in combat, just not seen for that reason.

[Bolt]

I like your explanation!

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, Knight26 said:

QF-3000s were intended as the primary fleet defense fighters for the SDF-1 on long range patrol.  In Miss Macross, Hikaru launched to provide "Ghost Support."  This indicates that the Ghosts were probably kept on station for as long as possible, and therefore had massive fuel reserves in order to maintain CAP (Combat Air Patrol).

Originally, yes... the heavy losses the UN Forces incurred in the Unification Wars convinced the brass to go heavy on the unmanned fighters, so the original plans for Earth's defenses in space prominently featured the QF-3000E Ghost as the majority of space-based fighter aircraft.  The original writeup of the ARMD-class's fighter complement calls for a whopping 270 QF-3000E Ghosts supported by 78 manned SF-3A Lancer II's and 18 VF-1 Valkyries.

Postwar, the ARMD-class airwing composition changed somewhat due to the massive attrition suffered by the QF-3000s in the First Space War.  The writeup in Sky Angels indicates they scaled back to 120 QF-3000E Ghosts in favor of Regults and more Valkyries.

 

11 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Likely, Ghosts would remain out on patrols for over a day at a time, if not longer.

VERY unlikely... the QF-3000E uses the initial-type first generation thermonuclear reaction turbine engine (FF-1999).  It's even less efficient and powerful than the FF-2001 engine that was developed for the VF-1 Valkyrie, and that thing consumed fuel 4,200x faster in space than in atmosphere.  Even if the QF-3000E's internal tanks were comparable to the capacity of a VF-1 Super Valkyrie's internal and conformal tanks combined, that's half an hour of maximum output at best.  I'd expect they'd probably be coming back fairly regularly to refuel, rearm, and receive basic maintenance since they were known to have cooling system issues thanks to their early model engine.

 

11 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Due to their limited AI suites, the QF-3000s were likely lost in large numbers early on and it was decided to just build more VF-1s instead.  The reason we don't see the QF-3000 more in the show is probably a storytelling and budgetary thing.  Also, remember, they were a dark blue and would have been hard to see against the space background, so maybe they were "shown" in combat, just not seen for that reason.

Their semi-autonomous AI suite is noted to have been a bit flaky, but serviceable... though not quite up to the task of being a viable replacement for manned fighters.  As a result, the Ghosts aboard the Macross were mostly used to scout out and delay incoming enemies until the Valkyries could get there and mop them up.  They took heavy losses in that role, and by the time the war ended there were only around 100 units left in the entire UN Forces inventory.

[jeniusornome]

Damn. No wonder Sharon was pissed.

[pengbuzz]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Originally, yes... the heavy losses the UN Forces incurred in the Unification Wars convinced the brass to go heavy on the unmanned fighters, so the original plans for Earth's defenses in space prominently featured the QF-3000E Ghost as the majority of space-based fighter aircraft.  The original writeup of the ARMD-class's fighter complement calls for a whopping 270 QF-3000E Ghosts supported by 78 manned SF-3A Lancer II's and 18 VF-1 Valkyries.

Postwar, the ARMD-class airwing composition changed somewhat due to the massive attrition suffered by the QF-3000s in the First Space War.  The writeup in Sky Angels indicates they scaled back to 120 QF-3000E Ghosts in favor of Regults and more Valkyries.

I recall that the Unification wars were considered quite bloody by historians; given that account, the sheer loss of experienced pilots would have made the UN Govt. reluctant to risk any more people than necessary.

 

  

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

VERY unlikely... the QF-3000E uses the initial-type first generation thermonuclear reaction turbine engine (FF-1999).  It's even less efficient and powerful than the FF-2001 engine that was developed for the VF-1 Valkyrie, and that thing consumed fuel 4,200x faster in space than in atmosphere.  Even if the QF-3000E's internal tanks were comparable to the capacity of a VF-1 Super Valkyrie's internal and conformal tanks combined, that's half an hour of maximum output at best.  I'd expect they'd probably be coming back fairly regularly to refuel, rearm, and receive basic maintenance since they were known to have cooling system issues thanks to their early model engine.

Wow... someone want to talk to NORTHROM about the VF-1 Gasguzzler? At that rate, the project logo should have been a female Viking chugging some 80% Octane!!!

  

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Their semi-autonomous AI suite is noted to have been a bit flaky, but serviceable... though not quite up to the task of being a viable replacement for manned fighters.  As a result, the Ghosts aboard the Macross were mostly used to scout out and delay incoming enemies until the Valkyries could get there and mop them up.  They took heavy losses in that role, and by the time the war ended there were only around 100 units left in the entire UN Forces inventory.

I wonder if the Zentran forces would have picked up on the cooling and AI issues and used those to their advantage? Confuse the daylights out of them, run them around until they overheated and then pluck them off? I don't know how imaginative the Zentraedi could be (probably not much),  but I could see someone like Quamzin toying with the Ghost fighters out of boredom.

[kajnrig]

On 3/25/2020 at 8:56 AM, jeniusornome said:

Is there a list somewhere of all the VF "cameos" at New Edwards in Macross Plus?

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/macrossplus-index.html

That's probably the best we've got. You'll have to do some sleuthing through all of them to see which ones fit your criteria, but IIRC the list should be pretty thorough.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/27/2020 at 10:28 AM, pengbuzz said:

I recall that the Unification wars were considered quite bloody by historians; given that account, the sheer loss of experienced pilots would have made the UN Govt. reluctant to risk any more people than necessary.

That and it'd make a lot more sense to send unmanned fighters up against an unknown enemy first to scout them out.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 10:28 AM, pengbuzz said:

Wow... someone want to talk to NORTHROM about the VF-1 Gasguzzler? At that rate, the project logo should have been a female Viking chugging some 80% Octane!!!

Gotta have reaction mass if you wanna fly in space... it's still way more efficient in terms of mass vs power than conventional rockets.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 10:28 AM, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if the Zentran forces would have picked up on the cooling and AI issues and used those to their advantage? Confuse the daylights out of them, run them around until they overheated and then pluck them off? I don't know how imaginative the Zentraedi could be (probably not much),  but I could see someone like Quamzin toying with the Ghost fighters out of boredom.

Probably not... they'd have either plowed through them with superior numbers and firepower or had more to worry about from the approaching reinforcements.  

 

On 3/27/2020 at 5:28 PM, kajnrig said:

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/macrossplus-index.html

That's probably the best we've got. You'll have to do some sleuthing through all of them to see which ones fit your criteria, but IIRC the list should be pretty thorough.

Nah, that section lists things that aren't necessarily in the OVA but just happened to appear in the artbook... but also doesn't list at least one design that DOES because its identity isn't confirmed.  You'll only find the aforementioned VF-14 on the Macross 7 section.

[sketchley]

Re: the mystery jet behind Jang at New Edwards:

Hmmm... thanks to the hi-res screen grab on Mr March's site, it looks like a modified (or enhanced) VF-4.  It's missing a bunch of control surfaces (canards, lower tails, etc), and doesn't have the semi-conformal missiles or beam cannons, but the engine nacelles/arms/shoulder blocks match up, and the inward cant of the vertical stabilizers is spot on.  The kicker is the paired upper and lower auxiliary intakes in the inner portion of the wing (between the nose and engine nacelles): we've only seen that on the VF-4.

Does this settle it one way or another? No.  Just my personal opinion has shifted from "oh, that's the VF-14" to "oh, that's a stealth enhanced VF-4".

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Re: the mystery jet behind Jang at New Edwards:

This is a translator pet peeve of mine... there's no グ in his name.  Just ヤン.

It's "Jan Neumann", pronounced "Yon" in the Germanic/Scandinavian style... fitting given he was named for Dr. von Neumann, a Hungarian who styled his name in the German fashion.

 

 

7 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Hmmm... thanks to the hi-res screen grab on Mr March's site, it looks like a modified (or enhanced) VF-4.  It's missing a bunch of control surfaces (canards, lower tails, etc), and doesn't have the semi-conformal missiles or beam cannons, but the engine nacelles/arms/shoulder blocks match up, and the inward cant of the vertical stabilizers is spot on.  The kicker is the paired upper and lower auxiliary intakes in the inner portion of the wing (between the nose and engine nacelles): we've only seen that on the VF-4.

There is one other Macross aircraft we've seen it on... or rather, one other Macross canon immigrant we've seen it on.  

The V-BR-2.

True, this was actually an Advanced Valkyrie design but Macross Chronicle puts it in the Macross setting via Technology Sheet 01Q as a Second Generation VF.

The shape of the nose and engine nozzle are wrong, but a third possibility is we're seeing some relative or prototype of the V-BR-2's.

Personally, I'm sticking with our original hypothesis that the unknown aircraft behind Dr. Neumann is a VF-14 Spiritia Dreaming type.

[sketchley]

33 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This is a translator pet peeve of mine... there's no グ in his name.  Just ヤン.

It's "Jan Neumann", pronounced "Yon" in the Germanic/Scandinavian style... fitting given he was named for Dr. von Neumann, a Hungarian who styled his name in the German fashion.

No worries.  I couldn't be bothered to look up the correct spelling is all. 

... and the pronunciation of Jan is definitely closer to the original Japanese than Jang is (in my brand of English, Jan [no g] has the regular short vowel sound, but Jang changes it into a long vowel sound.)

 

Quote

 

There is one other Macross aircraft we've seen it on... or rather, one other Macross canon immigrant we've seen it on.  

The V-BR-2.

True, this was actually an Advanced Valkyrie design but Macross Chronicle puts it in the Macross setting via Technology Sheet 01Q as a Second Generation VF.

The shape of the nose and engine nozzle are wrong, but a third possibility is we're seeing some relative or prototype of the V-BR-2's.

Personally, I'm sticking with our original hypothesis that the unknown aircraft behind Dr. Neumann is a VF-14 Spiritia Dreaming type.

 

Intriguing.  All are possibilities.

The only problem, however, with the VF-14 Spiritia Dreaming type is that it was written somewhere (Macross Chronicle?) that it was a local or unit specific modification of the VF-14 Vampire by the Blue Rhino (is that the right name?  can't be bothered to look it up) squad that we saw in that M7+ episode.

I'm not saying that the hypothesis is wrong—Kawamori-san is known to change his opinions, and publications aren't infallible.

Edited March 29, 2020 by sketchley

[Bolt]

It's the mystery VF/SV featuring in the upcoming Delta

[Sildani]

It’s a dummy VF shell used to train the New Edwards fire brigade. Kawamori really does think of everything! 

[jeniusornome]

I mean, production-wise, they could have just said “hey we need to put some neat planes in the background of a few of these shots and we don’t want them to just be old vf-1s, what’s in your sketchbook?”

if he had been toying with designs for the vf-4/vf-14, vf-17 and whatever else, they might have just whipped something up based on whatever quick sketches he had. 
 

I assumed since it was a test flight center they were all various prototype designs or modified production vehicles though. Like how NASA keeps weird things around like the F-15 ACTIVE or the F-16XL, and the yf-23.

Edited March 29, 2020 by jeniusornome