Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Speaking of VF-25s, there was a G-Variant for Snipers right? Did the 171 have improved optics when it was given a sniper role? I mean if that is the case, the Optics for the VF-25G seems to be a nice to have than a necessary feature. 

Officially it's unconfirmed.  Master File indicates that there was a dedicated sniper variant VF-171 called the VF-171AS.

[Bolt]

The monitor turret (head) of the VF-25G looks almost identical to the VF-25A. Along the lines of @Sir Galahad® question, is it just in the sniper rifle? 

I noticed Bandai has done the 1/72 VF-25F Armored  “Alto” with sniper rifle.(Ordered it from Mandrake) It looks to be the same rifle as the G version.  I didn’t notice this variant in the VFMF VF-25...

Edited August 8, 2019 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Bolt said:

The monitor turret (head) of the VF-25G looks almost identical to the VF-25A. Along the lines of @Sir Galahad® question, is it just in the sniper rifle? 

Officially, no... the VF-25G's avionics bay contains a fire control booster to enhance the precision of the SSL-9B railgun, and the camera system in the monitor turret (head) has been adjusted for long-range precision shooting.

Master File takes it one step further by suggesting the actual camera system in the VF-25G's head is different from the one in the VF-25A's, though everything else about the heads is the same.

 

Just now, Bolt said:

I noticed Bandai has done the 1/72 VF-25F Armored  “Alto” with sniper rifle. It looks to be the same rifle as the G version.  I didn’t notice this variant in the VFMF VF-25...

Any VF-25 can, in theory, wield the SSL-9B Dragunov railgun... Alto uses it in the finale of Macross Frontier in his VF-25F.  They just can't wield it as precisely as the VF-25G could, with its specially modified optics and fire control booster.

[Bolt]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Officially, no... the VF-25G's avionics bay contains a fire control booster to enhance the precision of the SSL-9B railgun, 

Ah so.. where is this bay located on the VF-25G? Is it illustrated in VFMF?

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Ah so.. where is this bay located on the VF-25G? Is it illustrated in VFMF?

In the nose, it's where the avionics live.

[Bolt]

[Sildani]

I’d also say that, given the Brisingr Cluster’s status as a backwater, they’d be desperate for any trade they could get. A Kairos buyer might have significant leverage because of this. 

And I don’t know if it was ever spelled out in any source, but the massive double-delta wing means that this bad boy (slaps air intake) can hold SO MUCH hydrogen slush, more than the Messiah. 

So, 31 for my corner of the galaxy. Including my personal VF-27 Lucifer, which I have for reasons. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Sildani said:

So, 31 for my corner of the galaxy. Including my personal VF-27 Lucifer, which I have for reasons. 

Like this one?  

I want to know how and why Mei Leeron, the head of the Uroboros Hunter's Guild, had her own VF-27γ in 2060.

It's not like Macross Galaxy let the specs for that one out into the wild... she must be seriously connected.

[Bolt]

I take it, like the VF-29, only the wealthiest immigrant fleets can afford VF-27’s..

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I take it, like the VF-29, only the wealthiest immigrant fleets can afford VF-27’s..

The YF-29 is so expensive that only the wealthiest emigrant fleets could afford to build ONE... so they generally built none because who can justify blowing their entire GDP on just one aircraft?

It's not clear how anyone got their hands on a VF-27 outside of the Macross Galaxy fleet.

Macross Galaxy pursued the development of its YF-27 in secret, trotting out undercapable faux prototypes like the YF-27-5 Shahar ♀ to distract from the real YF-27 program that was forging ahead using development data illicitly obtained from the Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 program.  They never disclosed the existence and the specifications of the completed fighter as required by interstellar law either, so the New UN Government and New UN Forces consider the VF-27 to be the YF-27 and the only known operators of the damned thing were the soldiers of the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army.  Since the specifications were never divulged, it isn't clear how certain influential individuals as far as half a galaxy away from the Macross Galaxy fleet came into possession of VF-27s.

Mei Leeron, the head of the Uroboros Hunters Guild, had somehow obtained a VF-27γ for her own personal use despite the Uroboros New UN Forces still operating the old VF-171-II Nightmare Plus and it having been less than a year since the Macross Galaxy fleet's defeat.

Likewise, Zelgar Heavy Industries researcher Ivan Polyvanov (alias Ivan Tsari) somehow possessed a VF-27γ on Pipure in 2062 when the local New UN Forces and Xaos branch were still using the VF-171.

[Bolt]

Apparently Macross Galaxy was the evil immigrant fleet..at least the upper echelons seemd so. There’s a story lurking there.. 

So what will the171’s eventually be phased out with? VF-25 & 31’s?

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So what will the171’s eventually be phased out with? VF-25 & 31’s?

That's up to the individual discretion of the New UN Government's members.  Even before the New UN Government decentralized to grant more autonomy to the individual member governments, the local governments had a great deal of autonomy in deciding how to equip their defense forces.

For instance, the VF-14 was widely adopted despite having lost the Project Nova design competition to the VF-11.  The Varauta colony was one government that opted for the VF-14 over the VF-11, before being taken over by the Protodeviln who improved its VF-14s into the Fz-109 and Az-130.  Windermere IV passed on the VF-171 Nightmare Plus in favor of an alternate aircraft that better fit its combat ethos (the Sv-154 Svard).  Some emigrant governments are noted to have adopted all-Ghost air forces.  Macross-29's government opted to abolish its armed forces entirely and adopt a policy of total pacifism.

The matter of the VF-171's replacement will be no different in that regard.  Earth's government opted to adopt the VF-24 as its 5th Generation main VF.  Some governments will adopt "monkey model" export specifications of the VF-24 as their next main fighter.  Others will adopt the Macross Frontier fleet's VF-25.  Still others may adopt the Brisingr Alliance's VF-31.  There may be other, as of yet unknown 5th Generation concepts floating around unseen as competitors to those designs the way the Sv-262 was.  Unmanned air forces will likely stay an option that some pursue.  Then, of course, Macross-29 will continue to plod towards economic self-destruction with its policy of total pacifism.  Some may attempt to bridge the gaps with Generation 4.5 VFs like the VF-19EF Caliburn and VF-171EX Nightmare Plus and skip the 5th Generation entirely.  

[Bolt]

Right. I realized right after posting that , each emigrant fleets has much more autonomy in choosing its main fighters , as well as, within limits, developing their own..

[kajnrig]

I mean the real answer is whatever design Kawamori decides isn't TOO protagonist material. My money's on the VF-25. Since the -25 is a spiritual successor to the VF-1, it can fit into the same mass-production roles. It can achieve a heroic look, but not TOO heroic, wouldn't want to upstage the aces sharing the battlefield.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I mean the real answer is whatever design Kawamori decides isn't TOO protagonist material. My money's on the VF-25. Since the -25 is a spiritual successor to the VF-1, it can fit into the same mass-production roles. It can achieve a heroic look, but not TOO heroic, wouldn't want to upstage the aces sharing the battlefield.

The VF-31 straight up divided it into a "hero" version (the Siegfried) and a "everyone else" version (the Kairos).

Personally, I feel the time has come for Macross to get back to where it was with SDF Macross, DYRL?, and Macross II, where the only difference between the ace pilots and everyone else is a paintjob.  The excuses for the protagonists having better mecha than everyone else are getting a little careworn and reusing the idea of PMCs having better gear than the military is not sweetening it.

[Sildani]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Like this one?  

I want to know how and why Mei Leeron, the head of the Uroboros Hunter's Guild, had her own VF-27γ in 2060.

It's not like Macross Galaxy let the specs for that one out into the wild... she must be seriously connected.

Yeah, but different paint. 

As for how and why: connections? Grace was a cyborg who’d infiltrated communications networks and was eventually defeated; perhaps she had a lot of knowledge about the 27’s construction and combat limits (since she flew one or two) and that info was uploaded at her defeat.. maybe?

Edited August 8, 2019 by Sildani

[Bolt]

“Personally, I feel the time has come for Macross to get back to where it was with SDF Macross, DYRL?, and Macross II, where the only difference between the ace pilots and everyone else is a paintjob.  The excuses for theprotagonists having better mecha than everyone else are getting a little careworn and reusing the idea of PMCs having better gear than the military is not sweetening it.“

 

It worked great for Frontier, I thought. But with Delta , it wasn’t so original. How about a Macross story about a NUNS squadron sporting VF-24’s..

oh right,  that already sounds too serious and mature for the current target audience...

Edited August 8, 2019 by Bolt

[snakerbot]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The YF-29 is so expensive that only the wealthiest emigrant fleets could afford to build ONE... so they generally built none because who can justify blowing their entire GDP on just one aircraft?

How do fleet economics work? How did Frontier get so rich, and how does that help them build a YF-29? Are the fleets close enough to each other and colonized systems that they are buying raw materials and/or contracting out work?

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

How do fleet economics work? How did Frontier get so rich, [...]

Fleets are mostly designed to be self-sufficient but trade in natural resources, processed materials, technology, luxury goods, food, and various cultural exports (movies, music, etc.)... and some fleets like Frontier also have tourist industries.

Frontier ended up as one of the wealthier emigrant fleets thanks to its tech sector and tourism.  It's a fleet sponsored by one of the biggest interstellar shipping firms in the galaxy (Bilra Transport), it has major presences from Shinsei Industry and LAI (the latter of which has a presence not just in the defense industry but also in consumer electronics), and it's a bit of a tourist trap thanks to the fleet being a 5th Generation bioplant ship designed to resemble a mixture of several different prewar Earth cities including SF.

The Macross Frontier novelizations and Master File both imply that the Macross Frontier fleet made serious bank on exporting the VF-25 to its allies as well... and sitting on the former Vajra planet they're going to get even wealthier thanks to possessing a huge cache of the rare and currently impossible-to-synthesize fold quartz.

Macross-29, a fleet that adopted a policy of total pacifism and conflict avoidance, ended up in a state of economic collapse thanks to becoming a doormat in trade negotiations with neighboring fleets and planets.  At the end of Macross the Musiculture, the fleet's leaders decided to attempt to revive the fleet's economy through cultural exports (entertainment).

 

6 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

[...] and how does that help them build a YF-29? [...]

The YF-29's design requires some extremely sophisticated technology and, most importantly, rare natural resources which cannot be synthesized (fold quartz).  The design is so massively overengineered that it's significantly more expensive than a regular VF in that respect alone... but it also requires four super-high purity fold quartz (1000ct class) chunks of fold quartz for its fold wave system and more super-high purity fold quartz for its fold wave amplifiers.  

 

6 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

[...] Are the fleets close enough to each other and colonized systems that they are buying raw materials and/or contracting out work?

Some are... fold navigation has only gotten "faster" and more reliable as time has gone on, so a "neighboring" fleet might be 500ly away and still involved in regular trade via cargo flights.  Macross Frontier, Macross Galaxy, and Macross Olympia were partners in codevelopment of 5th Generation VFs (if you don't count Macross Galaxy's bad faith participation for espionage purposes), due to their close proximity to each other.

Variable Fighter Master File had it that the VF-25 had some parts manufactured by Macross Olympia due to their ability to provide higher quality fold carbon composites for armor and structural material.

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross-29, a fleet that adopted a policy of total pacifism and conflict avoidance, ended up in a state of economic collapse thanks to becoming a doormat in trade negotiations with neighboring fleets and planets.  At the end of Macross the Musiculture, the fleet's leaders decided to attempt to revive the fleet's economy through cultural exports (entertainment)

And then the remnants of the Galaxy fleet folded in and forcibly annexed the 29 fleet. The end.

Edited August 9, 2019 by JB0

[Bolt]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross-29, a fleet that adopted a policy of total pacifism and conflict avoidance, ended up in a state of economic collapse thanks to becoming a doormat in trade negotiations with neighboring fleets and planets.

It’s majorly sad that, even though Kawamori San went to China, pacification  doesn’t pay..

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

and it's a bit of a tourist trap thanks to the fleet being a 5th Generation bioplant ship designed to resemble a mixture of several different prewar Earth cities including SF.

Us upper Cali west coast dwellers get props for Kawamori’s favoritism

Frontier was probably one of the most affluent emigrant fleets, it’s quite taken for granted actually... You didn’t see any slums did ya, a la Macross 7..?

In other words Frontier can afford special VF-25’s and the occasional YF-29..

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, Bolt said:

It’s majorly sad that, even though Kawamori San went to China, pacification  doesn’t pay..

The worst part of the plot in Macross the Musiculture is that the protagonist - a political activist advocating fixing the problems actively hurting the fleet - ends up being dissuaded from taking any actual action because a group of hardliners in his political movement that were largely unrelated to him resorted to violence that didn't affect the actual election in any way.

 

9 hours ago, Bolt said:

Frontier was probably one of the most affluent emigrant fleets, it’s quite taken for granted actually... You didn’t see any slums did ya, a la Macross 7..?

In other words Frontier can afford special VF-25’s and the occasional YF-29..

Well, Frontier is also only running at 10% of its nominal maximum capacity and the vast majority of what we see in the series is the most affluent neighborhood in the fleet... Island-1's topside.  A lot more of the population lives in the Deep levels underneath that, which were seen in the movies as more of a downtown urban area full of highrises rather than the more suburban atmosphere directly under the dome.

Of course, it's also partly a reflection on the government's attitude towards its constituents.  Macross Frontier is a representative democracy that handles its population pretty well and gives a damn about their wellbeing, even allowing Zentradi to live at giant size if they want.  Macross Galaxy is just as wealthy if not wealthier, and the fleet is basically one huge slum district because Macross Galaxy is run by a corporate monopoly that treats its citizens as employees and sees anything that doesn't earn them a profit as a waste, preferring to rely on augmented reality to create a pleasant place to live rather than actually making the fleet a nice place.

[Tochiro]

22 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The worst part of the plot in Macross the Musiculture is that the protagonist - a political activist advocating fixing the problems actively hurting the fleet - ends up being dissuaded from taking any actual action because a group of hardliners in his political movement that were largely unrelated to him resorted to violence that didn't affect the actual election in any way.

 

Well, Frontier is also only running at 10% of its nominal maximum capacity and the vast majority of what we see in the series is the most affluent neighborhood in the fleet... Island-1's topside.  A lot more of the population lives in the Deep levels underneath that, which were seen in the movies as more of a downtown urban area full of highrises rather than the more suburban atmosphere directly under the dome.

Of course, it's also partly a reflection on the government's attitude towards its constituents.  Macross Frontier is a representative democracy that handles its population pretty well and gives a damn about their wellbeing, even allowing Zentradi to live at giant size if they want.  Macross Galaxy is just as wealthy if not wealthier, and the fleet is basically one huge slum district because Macross Galaxy is run by a corporate monopoly that treats its citizens as employees and sees anything that doesn't earn them a profit as a waste, preferring to rely on augmented reality to create a pleasant place to live rather than actually making the fleet a nice place.

Except that that’s not what really happened at all. Vigo never had any real political aspirations. He infiltrated Neo-Zentran and his goal from day one was to get to a position of leadership whereby he could steer the group away from its violent tendencies. This was, of course, his way of making sure that shootings like the one that made Ash partially cripple and destroyed his dreams of becoming a backing dancer never happened again. The means were not the point, Vigo was merely doing what he felt he had to do to keep the group occupied until he could find a way to disband them. 

Similarly, by the end of the Musicalture, it was strongly suggested that the boys going on tour was a viable form of commerce between fleets and one that would grow in scale - reflecting Japan’s own music industry and how it has spread out and diversified its primary methods of monetizing it’s artists and furthering Macross’ message that culture and music are what’s important. It was an overwhelming positive note and a happy ending, if not also a new beginning for the 29 fleet. 

I must admit that as someone who saw the Musicalture in person and followed the interviews with staff that preceded it, it’s quite frustrating to see the shows message, plot, and intentions of its creators consistently misrepresented online as though someone ran half the plot through a poor Google translation and then filled in the blanks with fan fiction. 

[Bolt]

I'm glad to hear a more positive outlook here, concerning Musicalture. Was this project written or directed by Kawamori San?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Tochiro said:

Except that that’s not what really happened at all. Vigo never had any real political aspirations. He infiltrated Neo-Zentran and his goal from day one was to get to a position of leadership whereby he could steer the group away from its violent tendencies. [...] The means were not the point, Vigo was merely doing what he felt he had to do to keep the group occupied until he could find a way to disband them. 

Eh... I mean, you're right... but you're not actually contradicting what I said either.

Regardless of his actual motives, Vigo was in a position where he had every reasonable expectation of being able to defeat Serge in the forthcoming election.  He was primed to walk into the top job with the popular support necessary to address the underlying socio-economic problem that gave rise to the Neo-Zentran movement in the first place: the huge trade imbalance that caused the fleet's economy to collapse that resulted from the fleet's doormat approach to negotiations.  He walks away from that, leaving the fleet in the hands of the same man whose leadership (or lack thereof) was the cause of the trade imbalance, economic collapse, the emergence of the Neo-Zentran movement, and the violent protests it engendered.  It feels weirdly shortsighted for someone committed to curbing the movement's violent outbursts to stop so far short of tackling the actual problem.

 

1 hour ago, Tochiro said:

Similarly, by the end of the Musicalture, it was strongly suggested that the boys going on tour was a viable form of commerce between fleets and one that would grow in scale - reflecting Japan’s own music industry and how it has spread out and diversified its primary methods of monetizing it’s artists and furthering Macross’ message that culture and music are what’s important.

Yes, I know... see the previous posts WRT "Cultural Exports" as part of fleet economics.

 

1 hour ago, Tochiro said:

It was an overwhelming positive note and a happy ending, if not also a new beginning for the 29 fleet. 

Superficially... it's actually kind of a really nasty downer ending if you stop and think about the implications.  (Which, I know, we're not supposed to... but hey.)

They resolve the hostage situation, but they don't actually do anything to resolve the status quo ante that caused the Neo-Zentran hardliners to take hostages or commit any of those other acts of violence.  Serge's job is secure, the fleet's not going to be seeing any of the popular reforms that the Neo-Zentran movement sought as it transitioned to a legitimate political entity, and the whole plan to save the fleet's economy is pinned on the hope that cultural exports will get money flowing back into the colony despite it doing nothing to address the trade imbalance crippling every industry the fleet has.  Yeah, that specific group of hardliners will not be hurting anyone else, but since the underlying problem hasn't been resolved more are going to emerge in the future.  The fleet's still full of angry, unemployed people who aren't going to be distracted for very long by the Miss Macross Contest's attempt to be the circus in the metaphorical "bread and circuses".  

 

1 hour ago, Tochiro said:

I must admit that as someone who saw the Musicalture in person and followed the interviews with staff that preceded it, it’s quite frustrating to see the shows message, plot, and intentions of its creators consistently misrepresented online as though someone ran half the plot through a poor Google translation and then filled in the blanks with fan fiction. 

Now, I'd be happy to talk to you by phone or Skype as long as you'd like about the musical... but it feels more like what's actually got you frustrated is that I didn't take the Aesop at the ending at face value.  That, as part of looking at the picture of fleet economics it plays a peripheral role in, I poked some holes in the happy ending and its message.  

I'm only looking at it in terms of what the setting shows about fleet economic relationships, so I'm not terribly surprised if distilling unfortunate implications into a single sentence doesn't capture the fullness of the story... summarizing the whole story was never on the agenda here.

[Mazinger]

So wait is there like a physical copy of the Musiculture script floating around that hasn't been linked to previously?  I understand Tochiro having possibly caught a performance, but Seto too? What gives I thought it ran like a weekend and that was it.

If there is text linked to the script or book of the play, please, please, please pass it along guys.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

So wait is there like a physical copy of the Musiculture script floating around that hasn't been linked to previously?

None that I'm aware of.  I just have the various magazine, archived web articles, and other publications about the musical and its setting, story, and characters, as well as summaries by my friends who were able to catch it.  It'd be nice if they'd put a DVD out or something.

That's why I'm only commenting on the setting as it's relevant to the question of fleet economics, I can't well get into the details of characterization with the material I've got.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[kajnrig]

What even is this Musiculture thing you're talking about?

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

What even is this Musiculture thing you're talking about?

A short-lived Macross stage musical that ran for like a week back in October 2012.

The reason it came up in connection with the topic of fleet economics was that the setting (Macross-29) is a fleet in the midst of a huge economic crash thanks to having adopted a pacifistic national policy and abolished its armed forces.

[Bolt]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

Was this project written or directed by Kawamori San?

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

Was this project written or directed by Kawamori San?

No.

[Bolt]

Ah so. I'm assuming its canon though..

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Ah so. I'm assuming its canon though..

Macross Chronicle did briefly cover it.

"Canon" is, of course, still a vague, nebulous, and not especially accurate term for Macross's official setting since Kawamori tends to go in for a more broad strokes approach.

[Master Dex]

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Ah so. I'm assuming its canon though..

Are we going back to what is canon again? Lol, this is always fun. 

Unlike a lot of properties, in Macross what is canon is basically anything from a certain point of view. The only thing that was every strictly termed to be not part of the main universe is Macross II, and even that is not necessarily considered non canon. Seto can say more being the expert on M2, and all around well researched. 

EDIT: And Seto got in before I finished writing, ever the poised one. Speaking of, will you be at SDcon again this year Seto? I plan to again, after all it's a pretty short trip for me anyway. 

[Bolt]

Yes, I'm  aware of the canon nebula that surrounds Macross. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Bolt