Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Master Dex]

 

Wrong: the military despises the term as much as the IT crowd despise "cloud", because Uninhabited Aerial Vehicles are  manned at all times from somewhere.

So, former air force here. Drones is a more common term but UAV is in no way despised and is the correct term. Pilots hate the technology in general but that's just an ego thing. 

[Seto Kaiba]

 

You can't program a person for choreographed precise performance,

... I know several choreographers who would disagree.  But they are, by nature, a curmudgeonly lot.

 

 

and that mic did not deviate from Mylene mouth even a micra. If the animators cared that much for such a complex scene, there must be a reason.

Honestly, I doubt it.  I know a lot of people want to find significance in trivial stuff in animation, but sometimes the animators just do things because they look good or because they didn't want to mess with the audio.

 

 

Delta didn't use conventional microphones: Frontier did. And they refurbished or replicated an SH-60 Seahawk for no practical reason, as it was there even before filming Legend of Zero.

Actually, Delta did... just not in the field.  You'll find conventional microphones in a number of scenes during Freyja's audition and training early on, and during their practice sessions.

As to Frontier and "vintage" vehicles, the fleet went to considerable lengths to maintain the pre-First Space War aesthetics of the historical locations replicated in it like San Francisco, Shanghai, Beijing, Shibuya, Taiwan, Yokohama, and Yamanote.  This seems to have extended as far as ensuring civilian vehicles were period-appropriate even if they were significantly more modern under the hood like Ozma Lee's replica Lancia Delta HF Integrale.  (The mechanic sheet that features Ozma's car actually asserts this is something the population enthusiastically appreciates... which for me is a bit horrifying considering most of the background vehicles are stock CG models of Toyota small cars.)

 

 

I don't fail to see your point: you fail to address that, while the above is an useful trick, it is not mandatory, and lots of cheap drones do not use any kind of cloud based extra processing power nor storage, but inbuilt eMMC solid storage and mere KiB of RAM. Still, I can't understand why this an objection: so that AI you suggest isn't entirely located in any physical location, but is partly remote. So what? That makes QFs even cheaper, and still able to resort to dumbed down, no comms available mode.

"Cheap drones" are generally just remote-control toys with little to nothing in the way of actual AI features... that's rather different from what we're talking about.

 

 

Wrong: the military despises the term as much as the IT crowd despise "cloud" [...]

As our resident USAF chap noted, this is patently untrue.

(Calling us "the IT crowd" makes me feel like my office should be in the basement with a guy named Moss and a goth.)

 

 

BTW, while LIDAR active sensors may be useful for civilian vehicles (or detecting submerged mines from a chopper), it doesn't solve the other part of the equation for safe navigation: reading RELEVANT traffic signals. That is where the AI fails. A robot vending machine can enter an unobstructed area faultlessly to then detect with accurate LIDAR precision unavoidable road traffic, because it failed to interpret a crosswalk variant and a fancy LED animated DO NOT CROSS street light.

Simple color optics can be used for that.  Observing traffic signals has not been a problem for autonomous vehicles, and would not be an issue for a robotic vending machine using the same technology.  The program I worked on logged over a million miles of driving with exactly ONE accident that wasn't the result of a negligent human... and a vending machine on the sidewalk doesn't generally have to worry about being blindsided by a human in a car under normal circumstances.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

 

but UAV is in no way despised

Nor did I say so: Uninhabited Aerial Vehicles is still UAV. 'Unmanned' is despised. 'UAV' was just revised.

 

Observing traffic signals has not been a problem for autonomous vehicles, and would not be an issue for a robotic vending machine using the same technology

Had one? You'll notice those track variation in speed limits accurately for a while... and then go way below the minimum acceptable speed for the speedway because it reed the outgoing lane signal when it shouldn't.

Just imagine the effect if an AI had acted according to that.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Nor did I say so: Uninhabited Aerial Vehicles is still UAV.

Why do you keep saying "Uninhabited"?  UAV is short for "Unmanned Aerial Vehicle".  It doesn't mean there's nobody at the controls (and never has), only that there's nobody in the aircraft itself.  (And while it is standard practice to have someone supervising operations, some models like the MQ-9 Reaper ARE capable of autonomous flight and have logged tens of thousands of automatic takeoffs and landings without human intervention.)

 

 

Had one? You'll notice those track variation in speed limits accurately for a while... and then go way below the minimum acceptable speed for the speedway because it reed the outgoing lane signal when it shouldn't.

Just imagine the effect if an AI had acted according to that.

... it sounds to me like you're conflating a couple different incidents here.  There have been a number of incidents where autonomous vehicles failed to merge onto or off of a freeway because they couldn't detect an adequate opening to take a lane right, and others where they were fined for driving well under the speed limit during manned test runs on freeways for safety reasons, but I don't think I've seen any reports of vehicles mistaking what lane they were in.  (Or you may be mistaking the Tesla fatality from last year, where the somewhat less autonomous than advertised Model X autopilot misread lane markings and plowed into a barrier because it thought it was on the other side of an exit ramp.)

Level-4 autonomy hardware would be more than capable of producing a safe robotic vending machine.

[Aries Turner]

 

Why do you keep saying "Uninhabited"?

Because the USAF says so. Maybe not all people in the USAF, but hey:

https://wiki.nps.edu/display/CRUSER/2013/03/27/The+'D'+Word%3A+What+To+Call+a+UAV

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a425476.pdf#[{"num"%3A27%2C"gen"%3A0}%2C{"name"%3A"XYZ"}%2C0%2C647%2Cnull]

In fact, some prefer RPV, Remotely Piloted Vehicles.

 

t sounds to me like you're conflating a couple different incidents

Then I didn't explain myself adequately: MY vehicle told me the maximum allowed speed was reduced to half. Because the vehicle reed the signal of the exit lane, while I was still inside the highway. That was one of many incidents experienced by me, so I am pretty sure I am not conflating anything, much less about issues totally unrelated with what I experienced.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

 

Because the USAF says so. Maybe not all people in the USAF, but hey:

https://wiki.nps.edu/display/CRUSER/2013/03/27/The+'D'+Word%3A+What+To+Call+a+UAV

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a425476.pdf#[{"num"%3A27%2C"gen"%3A0}%2C{"name"%3A"XYZ"}%2C0%2C647%2Cnull]

In fact, some prefer RPV, Remotely Piloted Vehicles.

The second document is almost too old to be relevant anymore, not to mention now that the technology is commonplace no one says uninhabited. I'd treat it as a suggestion made nearly 20 years ago before the technology was proven that was ignored in favor of a more standardized title now that the technology is a norm.

That first link is amusing, but also a tad dated, and may itself be entirely specific to a subset of officers. It is true that officers in professional settings likely don't want to use the word drone, especially now that there are civilian grade drones (that said, off duty, or among the rank and file, drone will be heard far more often). RPV is a limiting term though that doesn't account for autonomous action like what Seto mentioned can be done with the Reaper (and others, but the Reaper tends to be the poster child for UAV and UCAVs). It can be entirely correct in some instances, but should not be a blanket term for all unmanned vehicles. UAV works great for a blanket term, and UCAV is certainly used commonly for those loaded with ordinance.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Because the USAF says so. Maybe not all people in the USAF, but hey:

The sources you cited a both pretty clear that the correct term is Unmanned, not Uninhabited... the first of the two noting that the term "uninhabited" was briefly used but that "unmanned" is the correct one.

 

 

Then I didn't explain adequately: MY vehicle told me the maximum allowed speed was reduced to half. Because the vehicle reed the signal of the exit lane, while I was still inside the highway. That was one of many incidents experienced by me, so I am pretty sure I am not conflating anything, much less about issues totally unrelated.

Ah, so it was your vehicle?  I see, what we have here is a failure to communicate.  I assume the failure is mine, as I notice I've failed to properly define my terms.

As I've said before, the grade of hardware I'm talking about that would be necessary to make a safely operable robotic vending machine like what we see in Super Dimension Fortress Macross is the kind of stuff used for SAE Level 4 or 5 autonomy.  The kind of hardware designed for a robotic car that can fully drive itself on public roads without any operator in the vehicle.  They use complex networks of LIDAR, RADAR, optical cameras, and high-precision GPS to control the vehicle.  This technology isn't available on consumer-level vehicles yet.  Right now, the best that's available to the general public is legally SAE Level 2¹, which depends mostly on short-range optical cameras with limited fields of view, ultrasonic proximity sensors, and usually a single tight-focus forward camera and radar.  Level 1 and Level 2 are only conditional driver assistance systems, not true autonomous function.  Because those units are purely dependent on regular optical cameras, they tend to have trouble making out signage at a distance or on the periphery of the camera's field of view.

Basically, what I'm saying you'd need to do to make something like the Petite Cola machine with today's technology would be give it the sensor suite off the autonomous taxis being trialed by Waymo and Uber, or the autonomous semi trucks from Waymo, Embark, and Tesla.  LIDAR and RADAR for environment sensing including hazard detection, optical camera systems for short-to-mid range, and a multiply-redundant navigation system.  It can absolutely be done, but it's gonna be a vending machine with a sticker price like an entry level 4 door sedan.

(Admittedly, getting all those sensors into a large upright box in a streamlined manner would be substantially easier than trying to work them into a nice, streamlined van.)

 

1. Tesla's Autopilot HW2 and later is capable of Level 3 functionality under very specific circumstances but is still classified Level 2 because it can only do it under those very specific circumstances.  They like to claim the computer will support SAE Level 5 one day, but I don't think they'll ever get there with the sensor suite they've got.  They just do not have enough depth of field in any direction other than dead ahead.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

 

not to mention now that the technology is commonplace no one says uninhabited. I'd treat it as a suggestion made nearly 20 years ago before the technology was proven

Agreed, but that also goes for drone. I am also old enough to remember when the thing was still up to debate. But I'll argue that 'drone' and 'Unmanned', while accepted, are not accepted willingly, but for unavoidable fact of everyone there using both terms, even soldiers born after that document.

 

The sources you cited a both pretty clear that the correct term is Unmanned, not Uninhabited... the first of the two noting that the term "uninhabited" was briefly used but that "unmanned" is the correct one.

The sources I cited pretty clearly didn't concede an Oscar for Wholeheartedly accepted One True Term. Much on the contrary, explained the caveats of every one, so your assumption is woefully wrong. I can concede 'drone' and 'unmanned' are widespread, but you can't say Uninhabited is wrong, because clearly isn't. Ditto for cloud computing. And yeah, 'I am from the past'.

 

UAV works great for a blanket term, and UCAV is certainly used commonly for those loaded with ordinance

True, but for now those also largely align with RQ- and MQ- designation, and some sources appear to actively avoid U(C)AV categorization by adhering to tri-service designations. Or making up even more obscure acronyms.

 

I see, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Huge one. While I enjoy the actual landscape about unmanned mobility, and greatly enjoy your contributions to Mr. Sketchley site, I think we lost focus greatly.

Some form of AI is present in those SDF vending machines and DYRL Roomba on OTEC steroids. Probably distributed even, as it drives costs down. But such a system should degrade gracefully in case comms are down, as r/l mobile phones do. With OTEC boosting in both capability levels. QF-4000 may in fact function that way, without fully onboard AIs. Like Tachikoma's AI controlling robospider mechanical bodies from a satellite, John, Peter and Simon may have been stored and executed within Luca's RVF-25, from Quarter or from SMS quarters at Macross Frontier.

But that would run counter to Luca's despair when losing one, so one can safely deduce QF-4000 AIs are entirely contained in the airframe.

One can't deduce the same for QF-3000, QF-2200 or Macross Plus drones. Or Petit Cola.

Nor for r/l F-35 sensor fusion, done in LockMart headquarters.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

 

True, but for now those also largely align with RQ- and MQ- designation, and some sources appear to actively avoid U(C)AV categorization by adhering to tri-service designations. Or making up even more obscure acronyms.

Engineers and governmental departments do love their acronyms.

Especially finding ways to create ones that are rude to see how long it takes before someone notices.

 

 

With OTEC boosting in both capability levels. QF-4000 may in fact function that way, without fully onboard AIs. Like Tachikoma's AI controlling robospider mechanical bodies from a satellite, John, Peter and Simon may have been stored and executed within Luca's RVF-25, from Quarter or from SMS quarters at Macross Frontier.

But that would run counter to Luca's despair when losing one, so one can safely deduce QF-4000 AIs are entirely contained in the airframe.

One can't deduce the same for QF-3000, QF-2200 or Macross Plus drones. Or Petit Cola.

There's actually enough information to draw conclusions about almost every Ghost series unmanned fighter in Macross.

The QF-2200 Ghost is an unmanned reconnaissance unit that's noted to contain almost no OTM.  It has an AI autopilot function, but otherwise is operated remotely by a human pilot like the modern MQ-1 Predator.

The QF-3000 Ghost was the first UN Forces unmanned fighter to have an OTM computer system.  Its AI was fully contained within its main computer, but the record is a little unclear as to whether the QF-3000's AI was designed from the ground up as a semi-autonomous model or was designed a fully autonomous one and only run in semi-autonomous mode due to stability issues.  

The AIF-X-9 Ghost had a self-contained, fully autonomous high-function AI system based on data the Macross Concern provided from the Sharon Apple program that enabled it to be as unpredictable as a flesh and blood pilot.  Thanks to Sharon Apple's little psychotic episode the technology was subsequently banned.  That said, its derivatives are almost entirely in the self-contained fully-autonomous category:

The AIF-7S Ghost that jointly held the title of "next main fighter" for the 4th Generation with the VF-171 is the exception to the above, as anxieties about the stability and reliability of the fully autonomous high-function AI system developed for the X-9 prompted the design to be scaled back to favor stability over maximum autonomy.  Its Macross Chronicle sheet asserts that it's using an enhanced version of the QF-3000's semi-autonomous AI to maximize stability, but that it is capable of operating in fully autonomous mode in the event of a loss of communication with the mothership.

The AIF-9B Ghost, AIF-9V Ghost V9, and Luca's QF-4000 Ghosts are all indicated to be fully-autonomous AI types.  Luca's QF-4000 Ghost is a special case in that it's specifically said to be an AIF-7S upgraded with the same AI used on the X-9 prototype, albeit deliberately subjected to program restraints in normal operation.

The AIF-X-8S Ghost prototype from the Macross Frontier drama CDs is unique in that it was equipped with a fully autonomous high-function AI like the AIF-X-9's, but instead of the artificial personality derived from the Sharon Apple model AI they used personality data sampled from living human beings... the members of Skull Platoon.  This was theoretically supposed to prevent the kind of runaway AI incident that occurred in the Sharon Apple-based software.

The jury's out on the QF-5100 Goblin II.  Autonomy is never mentioned in connection with it, only that it can be remotely operated by the pilot's cybernetic Brain Direct Interface.  They're known to be able to control multiple fighters at once, though it's unclear if that's being done by the pilot's own brain or if there's a resident AI installed in their brain that's handling that distributed load the way there was for the Project Stella cyborgs.

[Aries Turner]

 

The AIF-7S Ghost that jointly held the title of "next main fighter" for the 4th Generation with the VF-171

As always, I love the plethora of data.

I was reminded that while the VF-17 was vastly superior to the VF-11 and marginally better than VF-14s, the watered down VF-171 (not the -EX) didn't improve much on agility and acceleration over the VF-11, using extra power for extra fixed armament and pinpoint barrier.

The ones updated with EX-Gear but without the engine upgrade should be extra-comfy to fly, with almost no felt acceleration. It was an interesting priority of design, maybe for pilots that would be otherwise be piloting cargo planes for lack of G tolerance?

[Seto Kaiba]

 

As always, I love the plethora of data.

I must confess I was never particularly happy with that factoid... it kind of feels like it invalidated the ending of Macross Plus, after everything Isamu did to prove manned fighters were still the way to go.  He must've been pretty steamed when he saw the New UN Spacy adopting the Ghost anyway and some New UN Gov't members adopting all-Ghost air forces.  It must've been an especially bitter pill to swallow after the New UN Forces decided not to adopt the VF-19 as the next main fighter after all.

 

 

I was reminded that while the VF-17 was vastly superior to the VF-11 and marginally better than VF-14s, the watered down VF-171 (not the -EX) didn't improve much on agility and acceleration over the VF-11, using extra power for extra fixed armament and pinpoint barrier.

The ones updated with EX-Gear but without the engine upgrade should be extra-comfy to fly, with almost no felt acceleration. It was an interesting priority of design, maybe for pilots that would be otherwise be piloting cargo planes for lack of G tolerance?

Ironically, both the real world explanation and in-universe explanation for the VF-171 essentially amount to the VF-19 being too much of a "main character" mecha.

G-force tolerance issues were, for all practical intents and purposes, the making of the VF-171.  All of the envelope-pushing in Project Super Nova ultimately ended up producing two 4th Generation Variable Fighter designs that were all but unflyable to the average pilot.  They had incredible maneuverability and acceleration, but the high g-force loads on the pilot were severe enough that only the most experienced and talented pilots could get the most out of the aircraft.  The New UN Forces scrubbed their plans to make the VF-19 their next main fighter in part because of training accidents caused by pilots losing control of the aircraft under high g-loads.  (Arms export restrictions imposed by the NUNG didn't help, but having built a fighter only the elite could properly fly was a major problem.)

The VF-171 was a beast born of necessity.  The New UN Government needed a 4th Generation main fighter that average pilots could handle, with high multi-purposefulness and low initial and operating cost.  By simplifying and polishing the VF-17 design, General Galaxy cut a lot of time out of the development cycle, allowing them to produce a highly robust VF with all the capabilities the New UN Government wanted while keeping it within the abilities of the average pilot to get the most out of the airframe.  Later tech upgrades eventually (Block II/2055) made the VF-171 a fighter that offered better comprehensive performance than the VF-17 it was based on thanks to improvements like 3rd Gen active stealth systems.

A VF-171 with EX-Gear but without the VF-19-grade engines would be an incredibly responsive aircraft.  With the EX-Gear's learning computer and electromyographic sensing, plus its anti-g seat functions to optimize blood flow during periods of high g's, it would probably be a dream to fly.  Sadly, the Block IIIF type from the movies went the opposite way and got the upgraded weapons, sensors, and engines but left out the EX-Gear, improved visibility cockpit, and improved anti-beam coating.

[Sildani]

Hey @Seto Kaiba, get your mitts on the VF-11 Master File yet?

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Hey @Seto Kaiba, get your mitts on the VF-11 Master File yet?

Sadly, HLJ dithered a little too long on unpacking their shipment, so the two copies I ordered won't be here until Monday.

Tracking shows my package is still in Memphis.

[Sildani]

Well, can’t wait. Last I heard this was just a rumor, so I didn’t order one. Looking forward to your verdict of if this issue is VF-25 quality or VF-31 crap. 

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Well, can’t wait. Last I heard this was just a rumor, so I didn’t order one. Looking forward to your verdict of if this issue is VF-25 quality or VF-31 crap. 

Between what I've seen courtesy of @jvmacross and heard from @sketchley's brief review of the book, it sounds like it's going to be at least good.  Perhaps not as great as VF-1 Vol.2, VF-19, or VF-25, but light years ahead of VF-4, VF-22, and VF-31.  I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about this one, even if the book's obi is entertainingly enthusiastic about having done the VF-11 for the 11th book.  

It was nice to see that they covered the Kawamori-designed VF-X-11 from Advanced Valkyrie in there.  Lots of Max and Milia love too.

[Seto Kaiba]

I swear, online package tracking should be classified as a form of psychological warfare.

My and my team's copies of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-11 Thunderbolt rolled in bright and early this morning.  We had the opportunity to sit down and review them over lunch, so here are our thoughts on the eleventh volume of the Variable Fighter Master File series (published in-universe in 2066 by the Eden branch of MBS Publishing Inc.):

Someone at SoftBank or GAGraphic loves this fighter... and not platonically either.  The art is up to the series' usual high standards, but there are several pieces that clearly stand out as exceptional even for Master File.  The Max and Milia VF-11s c.2038 on the table of contents page are just gorgeous.  That was someone's labor of love.  Most of the art on the first few pages is just flat amazing.

Oddly, the variant coverage isn't concentrated in one section of this book.  The VF-11A, -B, and -C are covered right at the start before the Development section.  There's nothing that really stands out as unexpected in the Development section until page 024, where we see a Kawamori Advanced Valkyrie design (VF-X-11) pop up seemingly out of the blue.  There is some ink expended talking about the design competition between the YF-11 and YF-14 for the role of the 3rd Generation main fighter, though I'd have been disappointed if they had skipped that rather crucial step. They got the order slightly backwards but they didn't forget that there was a prototype that didn't have canards and a prototype that did.  The actual Variations section only has four variants in it: the VF-11D, VT-11, VF-11MAXL, and VF-11MAXL Kai.  No separate coverage for the VF-11D Kai "Jamming Birds".  

The Structure and Systems section is mostly unsurprising but detailed content.  The blisters on the VF-11's nose are integrated passive optical sensors that combine the functions of conventional optical cameras and infrared/UV detectors.  The odd inset panels just inboard of the wing glove that were labeled only as "sensor" on the VF-11 line art are identified as composite laser sensors and laser guide oscillators for handling laser-guided ordnance.  They also didn't forget about the internal ordnance bays in the legs that were not a part of the original design but were included in Macross 7 for Operation Stargazer.  Sadly, no engine cutaways, just exterior views of four different models of engine the VF-11 used.  There's very little coverage of GERWALK and Battroid modes, and the Super Pack gets a single two-page spread that is mostly showing differences between the version with conventional rocket nozzles (Macross Plus type) and the more streamlined nozzles seen on the Macross 7 type.  No real surprises in weapons except the misidentification of the gunpod as the GU-15 and mention of a GU-16, that the VF-11 is still apparently using the UUM-7 micro-missile pod from the VF-1, and that several other pieces of VF-1-specific ordnance are apparently used like the AMM-1. 

All of the squadrons covered in the back of the book are new ones except the SVF-41 Black Aces, which they copied from This is Animation Macross Plus.

[Sildani]

Excellent review, thanks Seto! Looks like this will be on my shelf in the near future. 

Are the laser designators on the wing gloves behind transparencies in this book?

Since there’s so little coverage about Battroid and Gerwalk, do you suppose there will be a Volume 2 covering them?

Makes sense that the 11 uses weapon systems from the VF-1; the systems were available, battle-tested, and above all cheap. 

Any stats for the gunpod, please? Thanks!

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Are the laser designators on the wing gloves behind transparencies in this book?

Yeah, they're behind some kind of polarized cover like most sensor systems.

 

 

Since there’s so little coverage about Battroid and Gerwalk, do you suppose there will be a Volume 2 covering them?

SoftBank and GAGraphic run on moon logic, so I couldn't begin to guess.

I mean, what kind of sadistic jerk announces a Full Metal Panic! Master File book that covers only a version of the mecha that appears in a five second blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment as cannon fodder in the main series, then puts the hero version on the obi to give it the illusion of being on the cover when it's not?

 

 

Makes sense that the 11 uses weapon systems from the VF-1; the systems were available, battle-tested, and above all cheap. 

Any stats for the gunpod, please? Thanks!

Unfortunately the gunpod details are very sparse... apart from briefly contradicting the official setting spec that says the VF-11B and VF-11C versions are two variants of the same gunpod by claiming they're GU-15 and GU-16 respectively, though that also conflicts with the VF-19's official setting spec that makes ITS gunpod the GU-15.

[Seto Kaiba]

Here's an odd musing...

Two different New UN Forces warships were named in Bruno J. Global's honor: the postwar Macross-class SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global and the Uraga-class CV-339 Bruno J. Global.  We know that the naming convention for the Macross-class SDFNs was that they were named for leading [New] UN Forces generals and that, at least before the war, the UN Government was naming a few of their aircraft carriers for its heads of state like the ARMD-01 Harlan J. Niven and ARMD-14 Robert A. Rhysling.

Bruno J. Global was the de facto commander of the [New] UN Forces after the First Space War, so it's not surprising that he had a mass production Macross-class named in his honor.  That a separate aircraft carrier was also named in his honor raised a rather interesting question... did he rise all the way to prime minister after retiring to go into government?

(It's rather interesting that the New UN Forces would have two ships with effectively the same name in service at the same time... the General Bruno J. Global of course appeared in Macross Frontier, while the Bruno J. Global is mentioned in This is Animation: Macross Plus as the home carrier of the SVF-41 Black Aces and appears in a Tenjin Hidetaka painting for the Hasegawa 1/48 VF-19A from the SVF-569 Lightnings.)

[Bolt]

[Aries Turner]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's rather interesting that the New UN Forces would have two ships with effectively the same name in service at the same time... the General Bruno J. Global of course appeared in Macross Frontier, while the Bruno J. Global

One could conclude the Uraga was named after SDFN-04 loss?

[twich]

I know that it is a rather obscure anime that several people despise and is not considered official, but I would really enjoy it if someone could find or reasonably produce some specifications of the Macross 2: Lovers again Valkyries.  Information on the engine power, weaponry and the like of the VF-2SS SAP and the VF-2JA and the Metal Siren that competes with the completeness of information that we have for other Macross variable fighters would be wonderful.  If such a website exists, could someone direct me to it?  Thank You!  I wish that I had the money to purchase the Bandai DX SV-262 and a VF-31 toy, but I had to settle for the much less expensive Bandai Hi-Metal R VF-2SS Nexx, which has rekindled my desire to know more about the design and specifications.

Thank You,

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

One could conclude the Uraga was named after SDFN-04 loss?

That would've made it easy to explain... but they appear to have been in service concurrently.

The CV-339 Bruno J. Global was commissioned at some point in the 2030s, and the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global wasn't lost until 2048.

 

3 hours ago, twich said:

I know that it is a rather obscure anime that several people despise and is not considered official, [...]

The "not considered official" part was a fan theory posited by its vocal critics, and was refuted by Kawamori himself... which, amusingly, silenced a lot of the people who despised it because Kawamori hadn't been involved in it.

 

3 hours ago, twich said:

[...] but I would really enjoy it if someone could find or reasonably produce some specifications of the Macross 2: Lovers again Valkyries.  Information on the engine power, weaponry and the like of the VF-2SS SAP and the VF-2JA and the Metal Siren that competes with the completeness of information that we have for other Macross variable fighters would be wonderful. [...]

Well, that last part's going to be a bit of a problem.

As an OVA that didn't sell particularly well initially, Macross II: Lovers Again didn't get the same depth and breadth of coverage that other Macross titles got after-the-fact in official art books.  Its coverage is more in line with the average level of coverage given to most mecha anime of the period (read: Gundam) in that it generally stops at dimensions, mass, and the armament with the occasional nod to other details like verniers and reactor outputs.  There was, at least, a reasonably good look into development history in Macross II's parallel world timeline published beforehand in B-Club Magazine Vol.79.  Owning to its status as the main VF of the UN Forces in the OVA, the VF-2SS Valkyrie II got the most coverage.

The Takachihof Corporation's¹ VF-2SS Valkyrie II was a derivative of the company's all-regime VF-2² optimized for use in space that was adopted by the UN Forces in 2081.  It stands 14 meters tall in Battroid mode (to the crown of the head, 14.5m with the beam cannons), and was approximately 13.5m long in Fighter mode³.  Fully loaded, it weighed 19,100kg.  It had three times the generator output of the VF-1 Valkyrie⁴ and the normal maximum output⁵ of its two main thermonuclear reaction turbine engines is 25,600 kgf (251.05kN) and its two secondary thermonuclear reaction turbine engines are estimated at 11,900kgf (116.7kN).  Both its improved generator output and overall improved durability are attributed to it adopting technology from the Zentradi battle suits to its design.  It has a crew of one, in a g-support armature that acts a bit like a powered exoskeleton to help the pilot function in high g-force loads.  Its only internal armament is a pair of coaxial anti-aircraft laser cannons on the monitor turret, since most of its armament is tied up in its Super Armed Pack.  Its Super Armed Pack adds an amount of additional fuel, extra verniers, a communications pod, and the bulk of the Valkyrie II's armament including: an anti-warship railgun, three large missile launcher pods (each holding 2 large/long range missiles), 18 small missile launchers (each holding 3 small/micro-missiles), a medium railgun gunpod stored in the left arm's pack, and support from five Squire auto-attack bits⁶ slaved to the Valkyrie II's FCS (each of which has 2 beam cannons).  Cpt. Nex Gilbert's VF-2SS has a special heavy railgun pod on its right leg pack in place of the four missile launchers.

 

1.  Named, in-setting, for company founder and VF-1 lead development engineer Dr. H. Takachihof.  Dr. Takachihof was also responsible for leading the engineering team that had embarked aboard the SDF-1 Macross in 2009 to carry out space trials on the VF-1 Valkyrie and its option packs, and organized the engineers from the various manufacturers into the team that created much of the Macross's improvised designs during the First Space War including the VE-1 ELINT Seeker.  In real world terms, both the Takachihof Corporation and Dr. H. Takachihof were named for Haruka Takachiho, the pen-name of Kimiyoshi Takekawa, one of Studio Nue's co-founders and the creator of Crusher Joe and Dirty Pair.
2.  Never seen, only described.  The VF-2JA is also a derivative of it, optimized for atmospheric service.
3.  Based on the size comparison published in This is Animation Special #5.  This figure has been disputed by things like the 1/250 scale collection toy.
4.  Either 3,900 megawatts or 10,200 megawatts, depending on whether you look at new sources that just say 650 megawatts for the VF-1 or older sources that cite 650 megawatts per engine as standard operating power and 1,700 megawatts per engine as the rated maximum.  Given the respective dates, I am personally inclined to favor the latter.
5.  It's worth remembering that actual maximum thrust is the Overboost setting which clocks in at at least 200% and has historically been as high as 240% (on the movie type VF-1).
6.  Yes, like Gundam... except computer-controlled instead of by psycommu.  I guess that technically makes them more like the GN Fangs from Mobile Suit Gundam 00.  The Macross II timeline's version of the VF-4 had funnels (also computer controlled), and one of the Mardook mecha has funnel missiles like in Hathaway's Flash.  If you look at Mikimoto's art for Hathaway's Flash, Hathaway's pilot suit should look VERY familiar.  He and Hibiki apparently shop at the same space outfitter.

[Aries Turner]

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That would've made it easy to explain... but they appear to have been in service concurrently.

The CV-339 Bruno J. Global was commissioned at some point in the 2030s, and the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global wasn't lost until 2048.

Oh, boy.

In r/l, the explanation is lack of enough quality control.

HOWEVER, in-universe, this endorses in a way the idea humanity have decentralized, with two independent governments both naming a vessel honouring Global and... er... what did we say about the deep end of rabbit holes and tea and cigars?

Edited March 26, 2019 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

In r/l, the explanation is lack of enough quality control.

I'm not sure even that is the case, since they went to the trouble of distinguishing the two names, the Macross-class ships were named after senior generals, and carriers named for people were named for (New) UN Government leaders... hence my musing about it.

 

8 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

HOWEVER, in-universe, this endorses in a way the idea humanity have decentralized, with two independent governments both naming a vessel honouring Global and... er... what did we say about the deep end of rabbit holes and tea and cigars?

... 'cept they were both apparently commissioned before the New UN Government became that decentralized, and both apparently from the same planet (Earth).

[twich]

Thank you for providing that information for me.  That is much more than I knew before today!

twich

[twich]

Also, on the VF-2SS SAP, the SAP doesn’t provide any additional boosters, just fuel and weapons and of course, armor. Is that correct? When adding it up, this Valkyrie has a fair amount of thrust. Pretty cool.

twich

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, twich said:

Also, on the VF-2SS SAP, the SAP doesn’t provide any additional boosters, just fuel and weapons and of course, armor. Is that correct? When adding it up, this Valkyrie has a fair amount of thrust. Pretty cool.

twich

Yeah, the Super Armed Pack adds additional verniers but no additional engines.  The VF-2SS is always running on its four thermonuclear reaction turbine engines.

[JB0]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The CV-339 Bruno J. Global was commissioned at some point in the 2030s, and the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global wasn't lost until 2048.

I think the SDFN Global was intentionally assigned to a high-risk research fleet in hopes of getting it destroyed so the fleet would be free of the confusion.

But oh my god, the fandom freakouts for the week after that episode aired...

[Master Dex]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

I think the SDFN Global was intentionally assigned to a high-risk research fleet in hopes of getting it destroyed so the fleet would be free of the confusion.

But oh my god, the fandom freakouts for the week after that episode aired...

I recall on this forum specifically, before the identity was known we kept calling it the WTF-1 due to the nature of the reveal lol. 

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

I think the SDFN Global was intentionally assigned to a high-risk research fleet in hopes of getting it destroyed so the fleet would be free of the confusion.

I wonder what the rate of people ending up on the wrong Bruno J. Global was like...

 

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

But oh my god, the fandom freakouts for the week after that episode aired...

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I recall on this forum specifically, before the identity was known we kept calling it the WTF-1 due to the nature of the reveal lol. 

It was a million times worse on other sites.

I remember some of the nutters on the R-word official site concocting crackpot theories that Earth had been destroyed and that that was the SDF-1.

[Aries Turner]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:33 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The CV-339 Bruno J. Global was commissioned at some point in the 2030s, and the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global wasn't lost until 2048.

Possible caveat: being commissioned in the 2030s doesn't necessarily mean it was christened with that name. It MAY have sported another name and AFTER SDFN-04 loss, it was renamed. At least two r/l SSN suffered a similar destiny.

 

On 3/11/2019 at 2:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Sadly, the Block IIIF type from the movies went the opposite way and got the upgraded weapons, sensors, and engines but left out the EX-Gear, improved visibility cockpit, and improved anti-beam coating.

Frontier movies or Delta movie? Or both. It seems in the end they got a heavier, maybe sturdier VF-19ish. Even if not for the Vajra, attrition should have been high. Desperate times, desperate measures.

VT-1Cs are still being produced? Is there any other civilian grade Valkyrie out there? While there is a lot of hardware in Macross The Ride, rationale implies there must be something in between, be it demilitarized civilian VF-5000s or something that wouldn't be oiling the pavement like half century old Harley VT-1Cs Davidsons.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

Possible caveat: being commissioned in the 2030s doesn't necessarily mean it was christened with that name. It MAY have sported another name and AFTER SDFN-04 loss, it was renamed. At least two r/l SSN suffered a similar destiny.

True, it's not entirely unheard of for warships to be renamed... though it is considered bad luck.

That said, it was already CV-339 Bruno J. Global prior to 2040 so it doesn't solve the "two Brunos" problem.  (Its first mention is in This is Animation: Macross Plus as a VF-11B unit color scheme for the SVF-41 Black Aces.)

 

8 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

Frontier movies or Delta movie? Or both. It seems in the end they got a heavier, maybe sturdier VF-19ish. Even if not for the Vajra, attrition should have been high. Desperate times, desperate measures.

Frontier movies.  Well... "movie" singular, really.  IIRC the VF-171-IIIF only shows up in Sayonara no Tsubasa as the Macross Frontier fleet's anti-Vajra upgrade.

Uroboros (and Sephira?) in Macross 30 had the VF-171-II and VF-171EX, with both being unlockable VFs for the player and one boss (self-proclaimed Bandit King Ganess Modora) also having a VF-171EX obtained through the covert support of Havamal.  The Brisingr Alliance NUNS in Macross Delta had VF-171-II's in its forces, and the only EX types we see there were in the gaiden manga Macross E as a part of Xaos's forces on the planet Pipure (albeit without the anti-Vajra weapons). 

I'm not sure I'd go that far WRT the VF-171's capabilities.  They pushed the airframe to the limit but its performance never did quite reach the level of even the VF-19A.  It topped out, thrust-to-weight ratio-wise, a hair above the VF-17S's 10.042 with 10.424.  (The VF-1A/C type clocks in at 12.914.)

 

8 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

VT-1Cs are still being produced? Is there any other civilian grade Valkyrie out there? While there is a lot of hardware in Macross The Ride, rationale implies there must be something in between, be it demilitarized civilian VF-5000s or something that wouldn't be oiling the pavement like half century old Harley VT-1Cs Davidsons.

So far we've heard of two explicitly civilian variants of the VF-1... the VT-1C that first appeared in Macross 7, and the VF-1C that was first mentioned in the Macross Frontier novels.  The VF-1C has, oddly enough, been the more prominent of the two story-wise as a training aircraft used by Mihoshi Academy, an aircraft the actor playing Shin in the in-universe movie Birdhuman trained on, and a parts source for the replica VF-0s on Uroboros.

That's not counting the decommissioned, disarmed military VF-1s that were sold off to civilians in disposal sales, military spec VF-1s that retirees were apparently allowed to keep (e.g. Milia's VF-1J in Macross 7), and the replicas on Uroboros in Macross 30.  

 

The VFs used by Macross the Ride's Vanquish League air racers mostly belong to the refurbished ex-military category, having been purchased from one emigrant fleet or another's disposal sales of decommissioned aircraft.  Anything newer than a 3rd Generation VF tends to fall under the header of either a covert military test aircraft¹ or a "screw the rules, I've got money" megacorporation-sponsored team's entry².

 

1. e.g. Team SMS's VF-19ACTIVE Nothung, allegedly Team Shinsei's VF-19A Brauhitsch Special
2. Team Shinsei's VF-19A Brauhitsch Special, Team Vistula & Oder's SV-52 Oryol straddles the line between being a resto (it was a SV-51 originally) and this thanks to the copious amounts of VF-17 hardware in it.

[Aries Turner]

Although titular protagonist of the series, the VFs I mean, is Kawamori-san endlesly playing with his origami fighters, I notice evolutionary and revolutionary designs.

I mean, engine thrust from VF-1 to VF-11 is almost gradually improving. VF-4 is slightly higher, VF-4G slightly more, VF-9, VA-3 and VF-3000, more so. VF-5000 is like an all or nothing simplified version of the VF-1. The VF-11 is somewhat odd in that engine power jumps a little more than previous steps, but there is nothing fundamentally different with her and the VF-1.

Although the VF-4 sported beam cannons, engine power was nowhere near what Zentran equipment managed. While having forward firing beam weaponry, neither the VF-1 or the VF-9 would hope to defeat Zentraedi battlepods with just that. VF-4 supposedly packed a somewhat higher punch, but only MBR-04 achieved some appreciable results, at low fire rate and while stationary, power depleted after each shot to even attempt at relocating.

Both VF-5000 and VF-11 gave up on forward firing beam weaponry, although acknowledged its usefulness as point defense and general tool. Having no viable backup weapon, the VF-11 opted for battlefield rechargeable gunpods over an energy based inexhaustible weapon that wasn't any good if unable to dent Zentran armor.

So the VF-11 was the end of the VF-1 evolutionary road.

The VF-14 and VF-17, however, seem to have exploited the stolen Q-Rau manufacturing satellite technologies. Their engines quadrupled previous energy output. Even VF-11 engines seems to have taken cues, even if still half of what the VF-14 output was (maybe General Galaxy meddling with the amount of information that Shinshei was given). The fact that the VF-14 was armed to the gills but half the weapons had atrocious firing arcs was maybe the deciding factor of the VF-11 winning the contract with its all or nothing approach, but the VF-17 was truly revolutionary, with the YF-21 first and the Q-Rea later marking the end of the particular evolutionary road the VF-17 started.

Those, however, still needed pretty complex and maintenance intensive machinery to barely surpass what protoculture could do with shoemaker shop made rifles and Liberty-class grade, previous centuries technology dependable, Nupetiet-Vergnitz. Zentran weaponry was engineered to be idiot-proof and idiot-buildable. As such, the first one (and latest) ever made was using technology centuries obsolete just for durability. It is no surprise Zentran and Meltran are wary of Protoculture ruins, as those sport the real weaponry capability of Protoculture.

The VF-25, as the VF-1 and VF-24 before, is a revolutionary weapon taking technology to the extreme to fight overwhelming odds. Its maintenance should be nightmarish. YF-29 should be even way worse. It feels somewhat logical than the evolutionary road would produce the VF-31 along the way, being to the VF-25 the VF-5000 equivalent to the VF-1.

I mean, in real life it is Kawamori-san taking the backpack thrusters of the VF-1 pointed the right way in fighter mode with the VF-11, then having the cockpit in a more protected place in the VF-19, making the VFs transformable while in heavy armor with the VF-25, developing an integral turret in the YF-29, then storing the arms elsewhere to make room for a container that could store more than turrets,...

But in universe, it all feels like real fighter generations.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Aries Turner
Broken sentences, missing key words, grammar. Grammier.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Aries Turner said:

I mean, engine thrust from VF-1 to VF-11 is almost gradually improving. VF-4 is slightly higher, VF-4G slightly more, VF-9, VA-3 and VF-3000, more so. VF-5000 is like an all or nothing simplified version of the VF-1. The VF-11 is somewhat odd in that engine power jumps a little more than previous steps, but there is nothing fundamentally different with her and the VF-1.

"Nothing fundamentally different" is about the shape of it, yes.

The reason we don't see radical jumps in engine performance in the first three generations of Variable Fighter designs is that they're all using the same initial generation of engine technology.  It's applied to engines of different sizes and with gradual improvements to the underlying technology so we see small improvements.

Major improvements in engine performance coincide with the adoption of next-generation engine technology, like the jump that occurred when the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine technology was developed for 4th Generation VFs and adopted by some late 3rd Generation designs like the VF-17 (from the -D variant onwards) or VF-11MAXL.  Then, of course, there was the Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines developed for 5th Generation VFs that introduced another major leap in performance.

 

Quote

Although the VF-4 sported beam cannons, engine power was nowhere near what Zentran equipment managed. While having forward firing beam weaponry, neither the VF-1 or the VF-9 would hope to defeat Zentraedi battlepods with just that. VF-4 supposedly packed a somewhat higher punch, but only MBR-04 achieved some appreciable results, at low fire rate and while stationary, power depleted after each shot to even attempt at relocating.

... I have no idea where you got any of this.

We have never had any statement of output power from a mecha-scale Zentradi thermonuclear reactor.  

The VF-1 Valkyrie was frequently shown scoring kills on Zentradi battle pods using its laser cannons in Super Dimension Fortress Macross.  Max is also shown inflicting severe damage on Milia's Queadluun-Rau using his VF-1S's laser cannons in Macross: Do You Remember Love?.  

AFAIK, there has never been any statement that the Tomahawk destroid was unable to move and fire its charged particle beam cannons at the same time.

 

Quote

Both VF-5000 and VF-11 gave up on forward firing beam weaponry, although acknowledged its usefulness as point defense and general tool. Having no viable backup weapon, the VF-11 opted for battlefield rechargeable gunpods over an energy based inexhaustible weapon that wasn't any good if unable to dent Zentran armor.

Ah, not quite... but I can see where your reasoning came from, and it's not that wide of the mark.

You see, this isn't down to beam weapons being ineffective... but rather, where they are most effective.

The VF-4 Lightning III was predominantly a space fighter.  As a space fighter, the VF-4 was ideally suited to leverage the full offensive power of a high-output beam weapon as the vacuum of space has no dense atmospheric gases to attenuate or defocus the beam.  Its atmospheric variants - the VF-4D and VF-4S - were equipped instead with a 30mm rotary cannon on each forearm to provide it with atmosphere-specific firepower that wouldn't suffer the kind of performance degradation its particle beam cannons would.  Likewise, its atmospheric counterpart as 2nd Generation main variable fighter, the VF-5000 Star Mirage, opted for a projectile primary armament for the same reason and transitioned its laser weaponry to blind spot coverage in fighter mode.

Their replacement, the VF-11 Thunderbolt, was developed as an all-regime but heavily atmosphere-focused design and so it eschews beam weaponry as a primary offensive option and follows the same design philosophy Shinsei Industry had pioneered on the VF-5000.  The VF-11's rival design, the space-optimized VF-14 Vampire, put beam weaponry back in the primary gun role for fighter mode.

 

Quote

So the VF-11 was the end of the VF-1 evolutionary road.

Macross Chronicle would disagree, as it cites the VF-19, YF/VF-24, VF-25, etc. as continuations of the VF-1's family line.

 

Quote

The VF-14 and VF-17, however, seem to have exploited the stolen Q-Rau manufacturing satellite technologies.

While it is true that General Galaxy's designs do have a rather unsubtle Zentradi influence thanks to chief designer Algus Selzaa, neither of these designs were influenced by the tech obtained from capturing the Quimeliquola AWDAP station in 2035.  The VF-14 had been in mass production for seven years already when the station was captured, and the VF-17's design had already been completed and entered testing that same year.

 

Quote

Their engines quadrupled previous energy output. Even VF-11 engines seems to have taken cues, even if still half of what the VF-14 output was (maybe General Galaxy meddling with the amount of information that Shinshei was given).

The VF-14 Vampire is actually using the same generation of engine technology as the VF-11... its engines are just much bigger than the VF-11's because the airframe is also quite a good deal larger.

Also, you're judging the VF-17 on the basis of the engines it didn't get until the -D variant.  When it was first rolled out, it was using engines from the same generation as the VF-11 as well.  The -D variant and beyond were updated with the next-generation thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines developed for the 4th Generation VFs.

 

Quote

The fact that the VF-14 was armed to the gills but the weapons had atrocious firing angles was maybe one of the reasons it didn't win against the VF-11, but the VF-17 was truly revolutionary, with the YF-21 first and the Q-Rea later marking the end of the particular evolutionary road the VF-17 started.

The VF-14's loss to the VF-11 in the New UN Forces' selection of their 3rd Generation main fighter had more to do with the military's desire for an all-regime fighter as a successor to the VF-1's all-purposefulness.  Despite its loss, the VF-14 was still widely adopted by emigrant governments that felt a superior-quality space fighter was more advantageous to have than an all-regime one.  Megaroad-13 was one such government.  You could say that even though the VF-14 "lost", it didn't actually lose.

Macross Chronicle's evolutionary diagram would likewise disagree with the idea that the YF-21 and Q-Rhea being the end of that evolutionary path... the VF-24, VF-171, and VF-27 follow on from General Galaxy's design lineage there.

 

Quote

Those, however, still needed pretty complex and maintenance intensive machinery to barely surpass what protoculture could do with shoemaker made guns and rifles and Liberty-class grade, previous centuries technology dependable, Nupetiet-Vergnitz. Zentran weaponry was engineered to be idiot-proof and idiot-made.

Credit where credit is due, the factory satellites have also been patiently refining the designs to improve their reliability for half a million years and counting... you can do amazing things when you've got five hundred millennia of DFMEA output from practical usage testing on your design.

 

Quote

As such, even the first one ever made was using technology centuries obsolete just for the durability. The same as the ones made today. It is no surprise Zentran and Meltran are wary of Protoculture ruins, as those sport the real weaponry capability of Protoculture.

That has more to do with the Protoculture's ancient standing order to leave them and their sh*t the hell alone... something first discussed in the original SDF Macross series.

It's the humans who have learned to be wary of the ancient Protoculture's ruins, since long experience have taught them the ancient Protoculture were somewhat irresponsible when it came to storing their superweapons.  They'd build crazy nightmare engines of apocalyptic destruction and then just bury the damned things in their backyard.  At least the ones on Uroboros were smart enough to realize that the ruins needed a nice, utterly unambiguous "Keep Out" sign... and that hives of massive, self-replicating, bio-technological insectoid sentries programmed to take violent exception to intruders would be a good place to start.  Nothing says "F*ck off" quite as effectively as a murder-bug the size of a starship - and equipped with weaponry to match - coming after you for messing with what ought not be messed with.

 

Quote

The VF-25, as the VF-1 and VF-24 before, is a revolutionary weapon taking technology to the extreme to fight overwhelming odds. Its maintenance should be nightmarish. YF-29 should be even way worse. It feels somewhat logical than the evolutionary road would produce the VF-31 along the way, being to the VF-25 the VF-5000 equivalent to the VF-1.

The VF-25's (and other 5th Generation VF's) maintenance requirements are noted to actually be less extreme than many preceding designs because the linear actuator technology it adopted allowed it to do away with many of the more complex, fragile, fiddly moving parts.  That, plus radical improvements in materials and manufacturing ultimately make them a good deal more robust than anything that came before.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Aries Turner said:

But in universe, it all feels like real fighter generations.

There are actually pretty good delineations between the in-universe fighter generations... and it's not accidental considering how frequently Kawamori has hung lampshades on it.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Seto Kaiba