Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[SMS007]

Which stock sub-model of the VF-19 was Basara's VF-19改 modified from? Judging from the silhouette I would assume a VF-19A unit, but every other discussion here has noted that Earth doesn't let the colonies have the full-fledged 19A.

Edited August 4, 2018 by SMS007

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Which stock sub-model of the VF-19 was Basara's VF-19改 modified from? Judging from the silhouette I would assume a VF-19A unit, but every other discussion here has noted that Earth doesn't let the colonies have the full-fledged 19A.

Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet ALL 01B "VF Masterpieces as seen from their Development History" points to the VF-19改 being a modified VF-19F.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur unhelpfully asserts the VF-19改 was a much less extensively modified VF-19E, which it contends was the first of the 2nd mass production type variants and that the VF-19改 head was a stock VF-19E part.

(Master File's account contradicts the other VF-19E depictions that lean towards it being the last 1st mass production type variant as with Maj. Blanchett's VF-19E in the Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy game... which was a reskinned VF-19A.)

[Mommar]

Seto, have you ever seen this photo before?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Mommar said:

Seto, have you ever seen this photo before?

Yeah, I saw that same image a few days ago when the author of that tweet also posted it on Facebook.

That said, I've been familiar with the VF-4 Siren design for over fifteen years now.  It's something I first ran across when I expanded the focus of my Macross II research from just art books to contemporary magazine articles, video games, etc.  The VF-4 Siren was the late-game upgrade for the main characters in the PC Engine TRPG Super Dimension Fortress Macross: Eternal Love Song.  That game was one of two¹ Macross video games released for the PC Engine as a tie-in to Super Dimension Fortress Macross II: Lovers Again.  The VF-4 Siren in Eternal Love Song came equipped with Super Packs that included funnels (filling in for R-Type's additional gun units) and a very large beam rifle similar in proportion to the VF-27's but bearing a striking resemblance to the MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam's.  They were used the for the last chapter or two, when Hound Squadron's Daedalus II-class carrier Prometheus II is used to launch a decapitation strike against the Zentradi Army Burado main fleet's mobile fortress similar to the one the Macross used against Boddole Zer.

Until that picture was posted, though, I had no idea that line art of any of the VF-4 Siren's other modes had been published.  Steps are currently being taken to secure copies of the relevant publications identified by Yui's friend who clued her in to the design's existence.

I'm fairly certain Yui's tweet is incorrect for several reasons... above and beyond the usual reason that Yui's claims most often have less grounding in reality than Harry Potter:

1. The VF-4 Siren has never been so much as mentioned in any collection of Shoji Kawamori's works.
2. It was presented as a New design in Macross: Eternal Love Song when it came out in 1992.
3. Neither Shoji Kawamori nor Tatsunoko Production were involved in Macross II project.
4. The VF-4 Siren is based on the VF-4 from Macross: Flash Back 2012... a design Tatsunoko doesn't have rights to.
5. Kawamori's published sketches show that his concept for the VF-4 battroid looked a LOT like the final one we got in Macross Digital Mission VF-X as early as 1990.
6. This design is clearly drawn in an early 90's art style (that looks suspiciously like Kazumi Fujita's) and in a pose which is not typical of Kawamori's work but IS typical of the Macross II promotional art.

 

Yui is probably confusing the VF-4 Siren from Macross: Eternal Love Song with Kawamori's design studies in a transformation for the VF-X-4 design that appeared in Super Dimension Fortress Macross (as a scale model only):

That unused transformation was, according to the VF-4 entry in Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works, further explored as the VF-X-7 Ghost Valkyrie in July 1985... another unused design from the mid-80's (see page 52 of the aforementioned book) that falls into his "Game and Advanced Valkyrie" category.

Yui's confusion may have been instigated by Variable Fighter Master File: VF-4 Lightning III inventing a few extra intermediate VF models in the VF-4's development.  It included the ambiguous art from page 68 of Macross: Perfect Memory's feature "The Lost Two Years" as "XVF-4" and asserts there was a tweaked version of that design that went into limited production under the name "VF-4 Siren"² prior to the start of mass production on the familiar VF-4 Lightning III.

1. The other being Super Dimension Fortress Macross 2036, which was a side-scrolling shooter in the style of R-Type.
2. See Variable Fighter Master File: VF-4 Lightning III pages 23 and 27, and Macross: Perfect Memory page 68.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[Protoculture]

On 8/5/2018 at 5:10 AM, Mommar said:

Seto, have you ever seen this photo before?

 

When Yui started putting that image on FB, I was hyped since finally we get a proper VF-4 Siren's Battroid mode from Macross ELS game, allegedly "sketched by Kawamori-san".

The closest clearest image of VF-4 Siren's battroid that I found online over the years are crappy screen caps from ELS. At least one fan derived VF-4 Siren fanart available which are taken from Macross RPG site.
 

But Seto hit the nail pretty fast. Even I noticed Kazumi Fujita's elements of VF-XS design (pre-cursor to Koichi Ohata's VF-2SS Valkyrie II) on the VF-4 Siren's Battroid mode above. I'm willing to bet either the artwork is simply sketched by Kazumi Fujita or by Koichi Ohata, and NOT by Shoji Kawamori.

For comparison wise, I attached a screencap of VF-4 Siren's Battroid mode from ELS screen cap and a VF-4 Siren fanart by a fan based on the aesthetics from the game itself.

 

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

32 minutes ago, Protoculture said:

When Yui started putting that image on FB, I was hyped since finally we get a proper VF-4 Siren's Battroid mode from Macross ELS game, allegedly "sketched by Kawamori-san".

Unfortunately, Yui's information is no less incorrect than usual... the probable issues for the source of her art were acquired, and proved to contain only walkthroughs for Macross 2036.

So I'm afraid I'll have to keep looking to see if I can acquire the issue with this art.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Protoculture said:

The closest clearest image of VF-4 Siren's battroid that I found online over the years are crappy screen caps from ELS. At least one fan derived VF-4 Siren fanart available which are taken from Macross RPG site.

IIRC, Luis (Flaming Guantlet on these boards) actually made that for a RPG site I was running way back in the mid-2000s based on some absolutely godawful screencaps of the game.

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

The booklet for Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure does have stats for the VF-31S Armored Siegfried. 

I'll translate those over lunch.

[Seto Kaiba]

From the Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure liner notes booklet:

VF-31S Armored Siegfried

Developer: Surya Aerospace
Armored Pack standard operating weight: 47.5t (incl. 15.5t rocket fuel, missiles, etc.)
Maximum Acceleration: 12.5G+
Main Engine: SLE-9A/E x2
Main Engine Total Maximum Thrust: 2,530kN
High Mobility Vernier Engines: Bharat SLE-1B

The armaments section is really confusingly written... I feel like I'm missing something here.

Armored Pack Armaments:

• Main Wing Leading Edge (both right and left sides)
  1x Ramington close-range micro-missile launcher pod 22 rounds container AMC-22
  1x 17 rounds container AMC-17
  1x 40mm beam cannon
• Booster parts (both right and left sides)
  3x Ramington micro-missile launcher (interior type) (15 micro-missiles carried)
• Additional outside large composition missile container (both left and right sides)
  2x 14 round container AMC-14
  3x 12 round container AMC-12
  2x 12 round container AMC-12 (rear facing)
  1x anti-ship reaction missile storage container
• 2x Ramington 35mm 6-barrel heavy machine cannon
  Uses explosive charge + railgun (TL Note: Like the SSL-9B?)
  850 rounds in attached drum magazine
• Multipurpose Container Pack Parts
  Sentinel ASAWB-M55 105mm twin-linked anti-ship anti-aircraft/anti-warship rotating beam turret (autonomous firing is possible, powered by energy capacitor)
• Additional leg micro-missile launcher pod (both right and left sideS)
  2x AMC-34 34 round container (on the outside of the leg) 
  2x AMC-16 16 round container (on the inside of the leg)

The Armored Pack's micro-missile launchers use Hamilton MMM-21/A high-maneuverability micro-missiles with proximity fuses, the company's latest model.

The reaction missile containers use compact missiles compatible with the container size, either the compact RMS-11 series or the RMS-10 series Mark 3 and later.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

Let's analyze!

Flight Performance (vs VF-25 Armored Messiah)

• 4,500kg lighter (47.5t vs 52t)
• 20% less acceleration (12.5G vs 15G)
• 410kN (14%) less main booster thrust (2,530kN vs 2,940kN)
• 100kN more total thrust (6,280kN vs 6,180kN)
  Production spec VF-31 has 360kN less thrust (5,820kN)
• Thrust/weight ratio is slightly higher
  13.48 for the Siegfried, 12.49 for the Kairos vs 12.12 for the Messiah
• Carries 500kg more booster fuel

 

Armaments (vs VF-25 Armored Messiah)

"Overkill" is a fundamentally meaningless word when it comes to Itano Circuses, and clearly someone at Surya Aerospace believes that Itano Circuses are the spice of life.  The VF-25's Armored Pack had a whopping 274 missiles of various types, not counting its four optional pylon mounts.  The VF-31 has an Armored Pack with an incredible 484 micro-missiles, plus the contents of its reaction missile pods.

Beam-wise, the VF-25 Armored Pack added four 22mm beam machineguns and two ball turret 57mm beam guns.  The VF-31's Armored Pack piles on a pair of 40mm beam cannons and a twin-linked 105mm beam cannon turret, definitely giving it the heavier armament.

Curiously, despite being an "Armored Pack" nothing is said about the actual armor... which was a big talking point of the Frontier Armored Pack and the YF-29.  Since the VF-31 is an economy model that does without the high-cost frills, and the Siegfried is just an uprated version of that, I suspect that the tradeoff here was additional armament instead of going all-in on massive defensive ability the way the VF-25 Armored Pack did with the adoption of next-gen ASWAG advanced energy conversion armor.

 

[Focslain]

Seems like the motto for this armoured pack was 'The best defense is a good offense." 

[Mommar]

It’s almost like CF armor.  Provide enough protection to get to the target then unleash hell and if the pilot was capable enough to survive then that’s a bonus.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Mommar

[Sildani]

Someone looked at the Stampeed and said: “Hold my sake.”

[Master Dex]

I mean, really back in Frontier the Armored Messiah might as well have been the embodiment of the quote: "You throw a nuke down a bug hole, you got a lotta dead bugs!"

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Mommar said:

It’s almost like CF armor.  Provide enough protection to get to the target then unleash hell and if the pilot was capable enough to survive then that’s a bonus.

I move that we retroactively demote Xaos's Delta Flight to Cannon Fodder status, if only because they suck.

I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of this... thing... as an Armored Pack.  The defining trait of the Armored Pack has always been that it massively increases the defensive capabilities of the VF.  That was the common thread of the PWS-0X reactive armor for the VF-0, GBP-1S Armored Pack for the VF-1, APS-11 Armored Pack for the VF-11, and APS-25A Armored Pack for the VF-25.  This Armored Pack for the VF-31 (APS-31?) looks like it's ALL offense and negligible increases to defense.  There are so many micro-missile launchers and so many missiles that it feels like the fighter would go up like a Chinese fireworks factory at even the slightest tap.  

 

30 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

I mean, really back in Frontier the Armored Messiah might as well have been the embodiment of the quote: "You throw a nuke down a bug hole, you got a lotta dead bugs!"

The Armored Messiah was a much more balanced aircraft, I think.

It did offer a significant increase to the VF-25's firepower, but it offered just as severe an increase to the VF-25's defensive ability via the ASWAG advanced energy conversion armor and capacitors to run the pinpoint barrier in fighter mode.  It was absolutely a pack designed with close quarters combat with the Vajra in mind.  I can't really suss out what this VF-31 pack was designed for... the way it's set up you'd swear it's made as an Attacker.

[Mommar]

Other than the additional material being able to absorb slightly more damage they’re more like assault packs than armor packs.

Though they do take quite a large impact before having to be jettisoned.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Mommar

[Mommar]

What do the design notes say about the Armor/Assault Packs, or whatever we're calling them now?

[JB0]

13 hours ago, Mommar said:

What do the design notes say about the Armor/Assault Packs, or whatever we're calling them now?

We're calling them missile hoses.

[Bolt]

4 hours ago, JB0 said:

We're calling them missile hoses.

I'd like to borrow that term for a different context please..

[JB0]

5 hours ago, Bolt said:

I'd like to borrow that term for a different context please..

As long as you don't tell me WHAT context, because I'm pretty sure I don't want to know.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 8/29/2018 at 8:39 AM, Mommar said:

What do the design notes say about the Armor/Assault Packs, or whatever we're calling them now?

Precious little.  It's mostly the usual statements of the obvious like "it can transform with the packs still equipped".

[AN/ALQ128]

On 8/28/2018 at 11:42 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

"Overkill" is a fundamentally meaningless word when it comes to Itano Circuses, and clearly someone at Surya Aerospace believes that Itano Circuses are the spice of life. 

Sounds like my kinda guy.

[Bolt]

On August 28, 2018 at 7:56 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

I can't really suss out what this VF-31 pack was designed for... the way it's set up you'd swear it's made as an Attacker.

Perhaps an SV style ..taking out other VF's..?

without much consideration for improved armor, of course..

Edited September 21, 2018 by Bolt

[Master Dex]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Perhaps an SV style ..taking out other VF's..?

without much consideration for improved armor, of course..

I wouldn't go that route for a slayer Valkyrie honestly, a weapon pack like that is a compensation for lacking the means to attack a larger target.. maybe anti-ship... but really you shouldn't be attacking a ship with a VF-31 anyway. I think we have to accept this pack is a cobbled together add on to boost effectiveness for a fighter that is essentially just 'good enough' in the hands of Xaos' pilots.. which... aren't the best really.

[Bolt]

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I think we have to accept this pack is a cobbled together add on to boost effectiveness for a fighter that is essentially just 'good enough' in the hands of Xaos' pilots.. which... aren't the best really.

Certainly.

I'm just trying to come up with a plausible explanation, as it seems to me dog fighting might be the best possible use. 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I wouldn't go that route for a slayer Valkyrie honestly, a weapon pack like that is a compensation for lacking the means to attack a larger target.. maybe anti-ship... but really you shouldn't be attacking a ship with a VF-31 anyway.

The initial generations of Armored Pack were intended as enhancement for land warfare, but once things moved to space they were mostly used for improved defense while operating in an anti-ship role.

As far as attacking a ship with a VF-31... I'd say it should do OK in an attacker role provided it has a couple thermonuclear reaction warheads to throw around.

 

11 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I think we have to accept this pack is a cobbled together add on to boost effectiveness for a fighter that is essentially just 'good enough' in the hands of Xaos' pilots.. which... aren't the best really.

Hey man, they're the best!*

* In their budget category.

 

8 hours ago, Bolt said:

I'm just trying to come up with a plausible explanation, as it seems to me dog fighting might be the best possible use. 

Dogfighting is a pretty atypical use of an Armored Pack.  I was rewatching Macross Frontier on my flight back from Super Dimension Con, and noticed Alto actually remarks on that during his initial sortie in episode 7.  (He's surprised by how Ozma is dogfighting in such a heavy armored pack.)

[Sildani]

In acknowledgement of the DX YF-19 release, I’ll turn discussion over to a couple things that strike me about this old design:

The arm cannon: what was its purpose, who thought it would be a good idea, and why didn’t we see it again if it was a good idea? And what weapons did it provide?

The Super Parts: there really aren’t many. The legs have their typical shin parts, but then there’s just those two small bits that dangle off the shoulder in Battroid mode (what did those bits even do?). No mini-missile launchers, no chemical or hybrid booster rockets, no swathes of armor plating for the arms or chest. Why is that?

Edited September 24, 2018 by Sildani

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

The arm cannon: what was its purpose, who thought it would be a good idea, and why didn’t we see it again if it was a good idea? And what weapons did it provide?

Very little is said about it.

All we really get from Macross Chronicle, for instance, is that it was a test article for an optional part of the YF-19's FAST pack that had high attack power and that it was not typically included.  Why the pack was dropped from the final configuration is anyone's guess.

It had one large-bore beam gun, two small-bore beam guns, and five missiles IIRC.

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

The Super Parts: there really aren’t many. The legs have their typical shin parts, but then there’s just those two small bits that dangle off the shoulder in Battroid mode (what did those bits even do?).

Officially, the bits that dangle off the sides of the shoulder are only referred to as "Shoulder Armor", and the Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet that describes them identifies them only as being there for protecting the shoulder.  (Kind of a "shaped like itself" statement, really.)

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur finesses this a bit on page 062, and adds the wrinkle of that armor piece also being a small conformal fuel tank designated NP-FB-FA07.  About all that the book says about its merits is that its mounting location enables it to be fitted in addition to booster packs and the larger conformal tanks on the legs.

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

No mini-missile launchers,

There are two micro-missile launchers in each of the leg packs.

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

no chemical or hybrid booster rockets, no swathes of armor plating for the arms or chest. Why is that?

There are a few reasons for that:

1. The YF/VF-19's engines arguably didn't need the help.  Its thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines offered a significant improvement in fuel efficiency vs. previous generation engine tech, and the larger airframe meant more room for onboard fuel storage.  IMO, this is right about the point in Macross history where FAST packs started to be less about extending range and more about minimizing the impact of adding scads of extra firepower.
2. Likewise, the YF/VF-19's existing defenses were likely enough that the extra mass of the bolt-on armor was judged detrimental.  Its armor was comparable to or better than a VF-17's, and that had ballistic resistance rivaling the Armored Valkyrie.  Plus it had a pinpoint barrier system and anti-projectile shield made of layered energy conversion armor for additional defense.
3. It preserved the airframe's passive stealth properties.  3rd Generation Active Stealth was still in development at the same time as the YF-19, so a lot of features of 4th Gen VFs were designed with passive stealthiness in mind... hence the internal ordnance bays, stealth gunpods, and the conformal FAST packs.  It didn't really become ubiquitous technology until the VF-171's second production block.  The default configuration being micro-missile pallets meant that the internal bays in the engine nacelles could be given over to larger ordnance like medium and long-range missiles that would increase drag and diminish passive stealth if hung on the wings.
4. It meant that the FAST packs could be operated with equal ease in space or in atmosphere.

[Sir Galahad®]

How large is a specific expedition fleet. For instance, How many Carriers and large ships that came with the Macross Frontier Fleet. And when they do a long distance fold, do they dock somewhere, or do they do their own fold concurrent with the main colony?

[Master Dex]

33 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

How large is a specific expedition fleet. For instance, How many Carriers and large ships that came with the Macross Frontier Fleet. And when they do a long distance fold, do they dock somewhere, or do they do their own fold concurrent with the main colony?

I don't have the specifics Seto usually comes in later with, but I think in Frontier's case a lot of smaller ships rode in Island-1's fold envelope (which might have been shared energy from the entire cluster). In Macross 7 is looks like ships individually fold though, so it probably depends on size. Island 1 is a lot larger than City 7.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

How large is a specific expedition fleet. For instance, How many Carriers and large ships that came with the Macross Frontier Fleet.

Oh, it varies massively... we're talking anywhere from zero to almost a thousand warships.

The initial generation of emigrant fleets launched using the Megaroad-class emigrant ships in the wake of the First Space War only had a few dozen escorts.  The only example I can recall to discuss fleet composition in explicit terms is in Master File, where 73 escort ships (9 carriers, 16 cruisers, 48 destroyers) was depicted as average-sized for an early emigrant fleet.

The defense fleet for the New UN Government's colony in the Varauta system, established by SDF-14 Megaroad-13, was probably second-generation and must have been a very large fleet even before it was captured.  Barely two years under Protodeviln control and it was an estimated 503 ships.

The third generation of emigrant fleets, the first to use the New Macross-class (City-type) emigrant ships, seem to hover around a couple hundred ships.  If you don't count the recreational ships and resource ships, the Macross-7 fleet had 186 warships (1 Battle-class, 45 Guantanamo-class, 20 Uraga-class, 120 Northampton-class)... 187 if you count the ARMD-class ship that shows up only in Macross 7 Trash.

The fourth? generation emigrant fleet Macross Valiant (Macross-16) from Master File is noted to have led a fleet of approximately 900 ships.

The fifth generation emigrant fleets Macross Frontier and Macross Galaxy both are noted to have unspecified, but large escort fleets spread out across dozens of light years of the ship's intended course.  The only fleet of that generation that was explicitly identified in terms of escort fleet size was Macross-29... at zero ships, due to its idiot government abolishing their defense forces entirely (the consequences of which crippled their economy).

 

2 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

And when they do a long distance fold, do they dock somewhere, or do they do their own fold concurrent with the main colony?

Yes.  Well, "both" is really the most accurate answer I suppose.

Initially, the first generation emigrant fleets were making use of some classes of ship that were not fold capable.  The fleet's fold-capable ships would have to carry the escorts that weren't independently fold-capable with them in their fold effects.  

Emigrant fleets commonly have small task forces of escorts scouting ahead to secure their intended course and make sure they don't accidentally fold into a dangerous region, an enemy fleet, or what have you.  Those task forces, as well as any escorts that aren't operating in close formation with the emigrant ship would have to fold independently.  There'll inevitably be some escorts operating in close proximity to the emigrant ship that can reasonably save some energy by riding along inside the emigrant ship's fold effect, but those are a small minority because the energy requirements for a fold increase both with the volume of space to be folded and the distance to be folded.  Folding an enormous volume would reduce the effective range considerably, and folding a long distance would necessarily require minimizing wasted energy and keeping the fold effect as small as possible to reduce its energy consumption.

Considering how absolutely colossal the Macross Frontier itself was between its gigantic dome and supplemental island modules, even an optimally efficient fold would have loads and loads of room in which you could park escort ships to conserve energy during a fold.

The City-class is known to have had starship docks on its underside, but those were supposedly mostly for things like repairs, building new ships, and layovers to transfer personnel and equipment.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The fifth generation emigrant fleets Macross Frontier and Macross Galaxy both are noted to have unspecified, but large escort fleets spread out across dozens of light years of the ship's intended course.  

Makes sense. The galaxy is a dangerous place, and more than one fleet has stumbled into something stupidly dangerous. And probably even more fleets than that have missed something important along the way because of the hopscotch nature of space folds. Both really good reasons to be dropping your escorts over everything you can.

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only fleet of that generation that was explicitly identified in terms of escort fleet size was Macross-29... at zero ships, due to its idiot government abolishing their defense forces entirely (the consequences of which crippled their economy).

WHAT?! How did ANYONE think that was a good idea?

Edited September 26, 2018 by JB0

[SMS007]

 

On 9/25/2018 at 11:44 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The fifth generation emigrant fleets Macross Frontier and Macross Galaxy both are noted to have unspecified, but large escort fleets spread out across dozens of light years of the ship's intended course.  The only fleet of that generation that was explicitly identified in terms of escort fleet size was Macross-29... at zero ships, due to its idiot government abolishing their defense forces entirely (the consequences of which crippled their economy).

On 9/26/2018 at 12:51 AM, JB0 said:

WHAT?! How did ANYONE think that was a good idea?

The writers, for drama.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 9/26/2018 at 12:51 AM, JB0 said:

WHAT?! How did ANYONE think that was a good idea?

The 59th Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet's government adopted a policy of total pacifism after getting swept up in a philosophical movement of "spreading culture to the galaxy".  The fleet's population has a lot of people who moved there to get away from the fighting in other fleets, which colored their attitudes and political views accordingly.  As policy goes, it was one of those idealistic arguments that sounds great on paper but fails in real-world application because of human nature.

Making total pacifism, unarmed neutrality, and confrontation-avoidance into national policy swiftly rendered Macross-29 into the galaxy's doormat.  With a willfully weak negotiating position, it didn't take long for their trade negotiations with their neighbors to become exploitative to the point that the Macross-29 fleet was nearing economic collapse due to a crippling trade deficit.

(Macross the Musiculture's plot revolves around a rearmament movement called Neo Zentran which emerged in response to the fleet's high unemployment and other economic difficulties.  Their main goal is to defeat incumbent mayor Serge Corvin/Glass in the next election so they can institute new policies aimed at rebuilding the fleet's military and renegotiating its trade agreements from a much stronger position.  Unfortunately, idiocy prevails when hardliners from the Neo Zentran party try to launch a coup instead and the fleet government stubbornly tries to stick to pacifism and rebuild its economy through the entertainment industry instead.)

 

 

7 hours ago, SMS007 said:

The writers, for drama.

Pretty much... the problems it causes are the crux of the plot in Macross the Musiculture.

[Sailor Arashi]

On 9/27/2018 at 9:52 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

 

Making total pacifism, unarmed neutrality, and confrontation-avoidance into national policy swiftly rendered Macross-29 into the galaxy's doormat.  With a willfully weak negotiating position, it didn't take long for their trade negotiations with their neighbors to become exploitative to the point that the Macross-29 fleet was nearing economic collapse due to a crippling trade deficit.

But I thought Kaifun was on Macross 11!

The fact that total pacifism is (usually) depicted to be just as stupid as aggressive militarism has always been one of my favorite aspects of Macross as a franchise.   Like, yeah, you need to find common ground and make peace...but you still have to be able to defend yourself long enough for that to happen. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Sailor Arashi said:

But I thought Kaifun was on Macross 11!

Oh, he is... but Macross-11 is also quite literally Space!'Murica, so he's kind of pissing into the wind there.

At least in Variable Fighter Master File, Macross-11 shows a very American enthusiasm for having the latest explody bits... they were early adopters of both the VF-19 and VF-25.  Page 122 of the VF-25's volume has an exemplar from their forces, a VF-25S-6 from the SVF-188 Firestars.  Weirdly, the ship they're said to be based on is instead named for a British Royal Navy Rapana-class merchant aircraft carrier (MV Acavus), which was a converted oil tanker operated by Royal Dutch Shell in World War II.

(Or at least I'm pretty sure that's what it's named for.  The only alternative I can find for that name is a genus of air-breathing land snail native to Sri Lanka.)

EDIT: Turns out it's both... all nine Rapana-class ships were originally named for genera of mollusc: Acavus, Adula, Alexia, Amastra, Ancylus, Gadila, Macoma, Miralda, and Rapana.  Clearly Royal Dutch Shell had a sense of humor at one point...

 

1 hour ago, Sailor Arashi said:

The fact that total pacifism is (usually) depicted to be just as stupid as aggressive militarism has always been one of my favorite aspects of Macross as a franchise.   Like, yeah, you need to find common ground and make peace...but you still have to be able to defend yourself long enough for that to happen. 

It never really comes up outside of the original series and Macross the Musiculture... so we're 50/50 on whether people realize total pacifism a dumb idea in-universe.

(Funnily enough, @Jack Verse and I were watching the dub of Gundam Wing while we waited for our respective flights out after Super Dimension Con, and between Relina's endless carping about it and shouting for Heero to come and kill her it all became rather absurd.  Decorum was lost completely when we realized General Septem is voiced by the same guy who did Nappa in Dragon Ball Z.)

Kaifun was kind of his own worst enemy.  Being a massive hypocrite and unlikeable bellend meant he was only able to find an audience after the war ended, and only then by riding Minmay's coattails.  It kind of died out the minute she dumped him, though he was never particularly convincing as a kung fu guy who seemed to enjoy picking fights.  

The Neo Zentran movement in Macross the Musiculture clearly understand what's wrong with Serge Glass's policies, but Vigo Walgria tries to stupidly take responsibility for the coup attempt which he had zero actual involvement in, and instead ends up knuckling under to Glass's pacifism and going forward with an insanely stupid plan to try and shift the fleet's economy to entertainment media... through the Miss Macross contest, which most fleets already have one of.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Seto Kaiba
I knew it didn't feel right... the plural of "genus" is "genera".