Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Sildani]

Bet ya those stub mounts are for reaction missile like the 25’s Armored pack. And most likely for the missiles from the Super Parts for the 31. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Andras said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So, speculation on Vf-31 Armored weapons?

built in HMGs and head beamguns of course

dual beam turret

forward firing beam guns in the dorsal armor next to cockpit

arm mounted gatlings

10+ medium weight AAMs (2x5, any reloads in there?)

dorsal micro missile packs

leg micromissiles (outers dual layer?)

micromissiles in the front of the rocket boosters (2 ports each?)

no wing mounted ordnance, but there are 4 new stub mountings on the booster packs.

I'd say it's greatest weapon would be that it looks like exactly what it is... a bunch of old animation assets haphazardly jammed together into piece of junkyard vomit.  They're clearly hoping that their enemies will mistake it for space junk or become ill looking at something so ungraceful.

Weapons-wise, this looks pretty straightforward... entirely because this is like 80% reused models from Macross Frontier.

The packs seem to cover the internal ordnance bays and Bifors CIMM-3B micro-missile launchers in the engine nacelles/legs, but the 4 Mauler ROV-127E 12.7mm anti-aircraft beam machine guns and Ramington LM-25s 25mm rapid-fire railguns are still exposed.  

The new weapons appear to be a kludge of bits taken from the APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack and TW1 Tornado Pack, the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus, and Destroid Cheyenne II.

Specifically, the leg and torso packs appear to be slightly modified versions of the APS-25A's leg packs with the Ramington CIWS micro-missile launchers, same with the upper torso armor.

The ordnance container has been replaced with a twin beam cannon that looks like someone put a cooling shroud on the TW1's TW1-HPC/MF25 heavy quantum beam cannon turret.  It probably will turn out to be exactly that.

The guns on the arms are clearly reuses of the 30mm 6-barrel GE rotary cannons from the Cheyenne II destroid, something borrowed from that unused-in-the-final-film Konig Monster variant which was used in the Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa trailer at the end of Macross Frontier: Istuwari no Utahime.

The bits on the sides of the booster rocks look like someone took the Sentinel AVM-11R long-range missile container from the Nightmare Plus and just added another chamber to it and painted it white.

It looks like there's a pair of micromissile ports inboard of each of those.

 

All in all, it's an ugly, clunky mess that looks like the output of a bored designer being told that he's got to have a new mecha for the movie to make Bandai happy and threw it together in a single night's coffee-fueled binge of jamming existing art assets together regardless of whether they look like they belong.

 

[Sildani]

Yeah but doing so makes a bit of in-universe sense. I think it was said that Chaos is run with a shoestring budget by a bunch of second-raters, so it makes sense their Armored Pack is a bunch of existing hardware they can lay their hands on for cheap and have Makina kludge it together. 

Besides, I bet it stays on the Siegfried for about 45 seconds and one (1) Itano Circus before Arad blows it all off saving Walküre from a thing. While screaming. 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Sildani said:

Yeah but doing so makes a bit of in-universe sense. I think it was said that Chaos is run with a shoestring budget by a bunch of second-raters, so it makes sense their Armored Pack is a bunch of existing hardware they can lay their hands on for cheap and have Makina kludge it together. 

Besides, I bet it stays on the Siegfried for about 45 seconds and one (1) Itano Circus before Arad blows it all off saving Walküre from a thing. While screaming. 

Reports from those who've seen it already suggest the film is over 50% recycled footage from the TV series, and I'd expect at least half the non-recycled footage to be new Walkure concerts, so on balance we're looking at maybe 20min of new animation that isn't specifically Walkure singing.  I'd guess the Armored Pack is probably dusted off for the final battle only, like when Alto's VF-25F got its Armored Pack for the final push in Macross Frontier's 25th episode and only had it on for like 3 minutes.

I do have to admit that, considering the VF-31 itself is made mostly from "off the shelf" parts that were developed for other VFs, having an Armored Pack that is similarly built is hardly indefensible, and arguably just an example of consistent design... even if it is ugly.

[Sildani]

Yeah, to me it looks like someone saw the Stampeed Valkyrie and the Thunder Hammer, and smashed them together in his mind. Blergh. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, I’ll still BUY a set...

[JB0]

3 hours ago, Sildani said:

Yeah, to me it looks like someone saw the Stampeed Valkyrie and the Thunder Hammer, and smashed them together in his mind. Blergh. 

Two great tastes that don't taste great togethere

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

Two great tastes that don't taste great togethere

Nonsense, everyone loves gravy in their fruit salad.

 

I will most definitely be taking a pass on this one when Bandai puts it out.  I collect beautiful Valkyries... not ugly ones.  It should say something that, despite my antipathy for the story, two VF-31s have already landed on my shelves and a third is en route.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nonsense, everyone loves gravy in their fruit salad.

 

I will most definitely be taking a pass on this one when Bandai puts it out.  I collect beautiful Valkyries... not ugly ones.  It should say something that, despite my antipathy for the story, two VF-31s have already landed on my shelves and a third is en route.

Quite so. I have a VF-31F and a 31A on pre-order. It's a very beautiful bird.

[SMS007]

Two of the new Macrosses are named グラシオン (Grasion?) メガシオン (Megasion?). 

Mirage's Sv-262. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by SMS007

[Graham]

I quite like the look of the Armoured VF-31S in Battroid and Gerwalk modes, even though I'm not normally a Gerwalk fan.

However, Fighter mode, which is normally my favourite mode looks terrible, especially when compared to the Armoured VF-25. I  also really hate that the Tornado style beam guns are pointing backwards in Fighter mode

[Sildani]

They’re probably just stowed in that position. I’ll eat my hat if they can’t flip forward in some way. They can probably traverse and elevate too. 

[Mommar]

4 hours ago, Graham said:

I quite like the look of the Armoured VF-31S in Battroid and Gerwalk modes, even though I'm not normally a Gerwalk fan.

However, Fighter mode, which is normally my favourite mode looks terrible, especially when compared to the Armoured VF-25. I  also really hate that the Tornado style beam guns are pointing backwards in Fighter mode

They're not backwards.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 2/10/2018 at 8:37 AM, SMS007 said:

Two of the new Macrosses are named グラシオン (Grasion?) メガシオン (Megasion?).

There doesn't appear to be any obvious theme naming going on, besides ending in -ion.  I can't find any mythological connection there, and can't shake the feeling that those look more like the names of Pokemon.  (Maybe Xaos acquired GameFreak at some point?)

 

On 2/10/2018 at 8:37 AM, SMS007 said:

Mirage's Sv-262

Spoiler

Might as well give the poor girl something... since, besides that, the only thing the movie gives her is the shaft.  (No, not that way.  Get your mind out of the gutter.)

 

6 hours ago, Graham said:

However, Fighter mode, which is normally my favourite mode looks terrible, especially when compared to the Armoured VF-25. I  also really hate that the Tornado style beam guns are pointing backwards in Fighter mode

... y'know, I didn't even notice that.  The design is so busy.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the guns facing backwards in fighter mode.  It's not the first VF to do so, and, honestly, considering how acrobatic dogfights in Macross are, there's a decent design case for including a strong disincentive for someone to stay on your tail.  Interestingly, it also looks like the barrels are retractable, 

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

They’re probably just stowed in that position. I’ll eat my hat if they can’t flip forward in some way. They can probably traverse and elevate too. 

They'd be a pretty poor imitation of the Tornado Pack's heavy quantum beam cannon if they couldn't... and we've known for bloody ages that the YF-30's beam cannon container was a VERY good imitation of the Tornado Pack's beam cannons.  Arguably better than the original, being more deadly and more compact.
 

2 hours ago, Mommar said:

They're not backwards.

Look at the shape of the center mounting, they're backwards.

That yellow bulb thing is facing rear.

[SMS007]

Is this the deco of Chelsea Scarlett's YF-25, or is it merely an expanded color model for the barely-visible Frontier movie YF-25 model?

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Is this the deco of Chelsea Scarlett's YF-25, or is it merely an expanded color model for the barely-visible Frontier movie YF-25 model?

Both, technically.

All three YF-25 Prophecy prototypes were given the same orange, white, and blue paint job by the factory for visibility.  The units were individually numbered 001, 002, and 003 for identification purposes, but were otherwise identical.

This particular picture is Unit 001, the YF-25 used by Angers 672 for the first test flight over Messiah 025 and later given to SMS's Chelsea Scarlett when her VF-19ACTIVE Nothung was destroyed (by Angers 672) during a FASCES attack.  So this IS a standard color scheme, but it's also the colors of the YF-25 used by Chelsea Scarlett and Angers 672, which is arguably a distinction that needs to be made since Reon Sakaki had a YF-25 from Sephira colored seafoam and white.

(Unit 002 is not mentioned as having done anything interesting, and Unit 003's sole mention of note is that it was seen onscreen in Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa sitting in the SMS Macross Quarter's hangar.  All three units appear together in a model kit box art painting by Tenjin Hidetaka that's in his Valkyries: Second Sortie book.)

[SMS007]

As I recall, the YF-25 was Shinsei/LAI Frontier's project, in parallel with Olympia's YF-26 and Galaxy's YF-27. Is there any information on what SMS Sephira was doing with Reon Sakaki's YF-25 prior to Macross 30?

[JB0]

Okay, this is something that comes to mind every now and then, and I always forget to ask. So today, I break the trend.

What exactly IS the Thunder Hammer? It looks an awful lot like a GBP-1 clone, but I assume there's more to it than that. 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, SMS007 said:

As I recall, the YF-25 was Shinsei/LAI Frontier's project, in parallel with Olympia's YF-26 and Galaxy's YF-27. Is there any information on what SMS Sephira was doing with Reon Sakaki's YF-25 prior to Macross 30?

Nope, just that Reon was tasked with delivering said YF-25 to the head of the Uroboros branch.

I'd assume that the Sephira NUNS had decided to either buy VF-25s from the Macross Frontier fleet or obtained a license from the fleet to build their own VF-25s locally.  Though not strictly canon, both the Variable Fighter Master File and Variable Fighter Episode Archive both indicate the Frontier government made a mint on the VF-25 Messiah selling them as export models or selling licenses to their allies to build them under license.  The VF-25 is probably the single most numerous 5th Generation VF besides the federal VF-24 and monkey models of same.

 

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

Okay, this is something that comes to mind every now and then, and I always forget to ask. So today, I break the trend.

What exactly IS the Thunder Hammer? It looks an awful lot like a GBP-1 clone, but I assume there's more to it than that. 

There's no official spec corresponding to the "Thunder Hammer" I'm familiar with.

As far as I'm aware, that was a customized model kit based on the Hasegawa 1/72 scale VF-1S and Armored Valkyrie kits done for the October 2002 issue of Model Graphix magazine (as part of a run of articles titled "Advanced Valkyrie in Action").  It was built by Kouichi Hatakeyama and painted by Shigeki Ninomiya.

"Thunder Hammer" is not the name of the unit in the article, but rather the name of the squadron that it belongs to... a moon-based unit, the 5th Space Operations Group 1920th Squadron "Thunder Hammers".  You might get a juvenile chuckle or two out of it being misspelled "Thunder Hummers" on the article's title page.  It looks like the custom kit recycles some parts from another design the same issue featured, the VE-1AEW Alvitr.  Namely, a large, distressingly phallic looking radar.  The only real functional difference is that it appears to have the NP-BP-01 booster packs from the Super Pack instead of the built-in boosters of the regular Armored Pack.  Some versions of it are shown with the Strike Pack's beam cannon.

[JB0]

Okay, so there's not anything super-special written about it that I've just missed. What you see is what you get.

Thanks.

[dizman]

Here's a question that I don't remember being asked, is there info on the costs to build and maintain a VF and its armaments? Considering the VF-1 is still around with private owners well into the 2050's it can't be too expensive, though I would assume they built so many that junkyard parts are still plentiful.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, dizman said:

Here's a question that I don't remember being asked, is there info on the costs to build and maintain a VF and its armaments?

To date, the only time an actual number was put to it was in Masahiro Chiba's Sky Angels VF-1 tech manual in '84.  The flyaway cost for an early block VF-1A was given as $126 million (c.2008).

Bear in mind, this was written and published back in 1984 when the average cost of a modern (4th Gen) fighter was $28.9 million per unit.  A VF-1A was 3.3 times as expensive as the priciest modern fighter jet in service at the time (the F-14A).  Nobody foresaw that, by the time calendars caught up to Macross's events, $126 million would be a pretty reasonable price tag for a conventional fighter... with the F-35B and C sitting pretty at $122 mil, and the F-22 at $150 mil.

 

1 minute ago, dizman said:

Considering the VF-1 is still around with private owners well into the 2050's it can't be too expensive, though I would assume they built so many that junkyard parts are still plentiful.

All told, around 5,500 VF-1 Valkyries were built and delivered to the military during mass production.

A lot of the civilian market stuff is units that were built under license from Shinsei Industry for non-military use, though some military spec models did fall into civilian hands via disposal sales. after its retirement.

[Seto Kaiba]

As an amusing side note to my previous post, the Sky Angels book gives the RDT&E cost of the VF-1 Valkyrie program as $50 billion... less than both the F-35 (@$55 billion) and F-22 (@$67 billion).

[JB0]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As an amusing side note to my previous post, the Sky Angels book gives the RDT&E cost of the VF-1 Valkyrie program as $50 billion... less than both the F-35 (@$55 billion) and F-22 (@$67 billion).

Your tax dollars at work. We coulda built giant robots!

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, JB0 said:

Your tax dollars at work. We coulda built giant robots!

If only... if you take the VF-1's cost and apply other remarks comparing its cost to that of the average Destroid, which is said to be approximately 1/20th the cost of a VF-1, your average Destroid has a price point of around $6.3 million.  That's about what a M1 Abrams cost back in '99, and about $2.6 million less than one costs today.

Clearly some serious advancements in manufacturing technology were made even before they got 'hold of that factory satellite.  If a giant robot only costs six mil, one can only imagine how much the cost of a tank came down...

(By 2059, destroids had achieved the level of glorified forklifts, so the price must REALLY have come down with automated factory tech.)

[AN/ALQ128]

On 2/17/2018 at 7:21 AM, SMS007 said:

Is this the deco of Chelsea Scarlett's YF-25, or is it merely an expanded color model for the barely-visible Frontier movie YF-25 model?

If it weren't for the fact that in reality the YF-16 had red instead of orange wings, I'd say there's a strong resemblance to the YF-16 colour scheme.

[SMS007]

Was Alto’s YF-29 the first one to be built?

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Was Alto’s YF-29 the first one to be built?

As far as we know, yes.

Per Macross Chronicle, the YF-29 Durandal used by Alto Saotome during the final battle of the Vajra conflict was the initial prototype that Shinsei Industry and LAI had started building back in 2057 but were only able to complete in 2059 when the Vajra conflict provided the necessary fold quartz.

[SMS007]

Wow, so the invasion of the Vajra homeworld, as depicted in Sayonara no Tsubasa, was the proving debut for the YF-29, eh?

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Wow, so the invasion of the Vajra homeworld, as depicted in Sayonara no Tsubasa, was the proving debut for the YF-29, eh?

Its first, last, and only sortie... as Alto abandoned it mid-flight, and apparently nobody bothered to recover or repair the most expensive aircraft in the entire fleet at the end of the movie. 

(One would assume the YF-29 Durandal [Alto Saotome type] in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy is a trial production YF-29 that's just been painted in Alto's colors, since the fighter that he comes to Uroboros in is a VF-25F.)

[Sir Galahad®]

Was there a version of the VF-25 that used the wing hardpoints? I mean before the tornado pack, it would seem that the VF-25 would only have it's gunpod and the beam guns near the intakes (that were never used)

Also was there a reason that the VF-11 did not have any wing hardpoints? Was it intentional?

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Was there a version of the VF-25 that used the wing hardpoints? I mean before the tornado pack, it would seem that the VF-25 would only have it's gunpod and the beam guns near the intakes (that were never used)

Because the combat in Macross Frontier takes place almost exclusively in space, they seem to have preferred to use FAST Packs to lug their missiles around.

Stories set mostly or entirely in atmosphere like Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy aren't at all shy about having the VF-25s use their underwing pylons.  Every VF-25 in-game uses the six pylon stations on the wings for varying mixes of weaponry including the multi-lockon missiles, the single lockon Itano Circus variety, and occasionally reaction missiles.

 

 

7 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Also was there a reason that the VF-11 did not have any wing hardpoints? Was it intentional?

It does, in fact, have wing hardpoints.  Four, to be precise.

Why they weren't shown until 2011 is anyone's guess.  It may have something to do with wanting better passive stealth c. Macross 7, since fighters with 3rd Gen active stealth systems hadn't been introduced on more than a trial basis and improvements in detection systems had shifted design emphasis back towards passive stealth designs like the VF-17 and VF-22.

 

[sketchley]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It does, in fact, have wing hardpoints.  Four, to be precise.

Why they weren't shown until 2011 is anyone's guess.  It may have something to do with wanting better passive stealth c. Macross 7, since fighters with 3rd Gen active stealth systems hadn't been introduced on more than a trial basis and improvements in detection systems had shifted design emphasis back towards passive stealth designs like the VF-17 and VF-22.

 

Passive stealthiness is just one aspect to consider.  There's also:

- protection (from micrometeorites, random bullets, etc.) in the Super Parts in space

- better flight performance (stuff mounted under the wings has significant drag, among other things) in atmosphere

 

The kicker is that Kawamori-san even designed a stealthy underwing weapon pod for the VF-11 during the design phase for the VF-11 (Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works Pg 076).  The idea ending up being reused in the VF-0 (though that begs the question of what inspired him?  For example: the F-18 International Roadmap has a centerline-mounted Enclosed Weapon Pod.)

[SMS007]

What's the real-world naming intent behind the YF-29 Durandal? For a fighter that basically supplanted the VF-25 Messiah as the designated rival to the VF-27 Lucifer, I don't see how "Durandal" is supposed to thematically oppose "Lucifer".

Relatedly, why is YF-29B Perceval rendered in Japanese as パーツィバル / Pātsibaru? Where does that pronunciation come from?

Edited March 22, 2018 by SMS007

[Valkyrie Driver]

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

Relatedly, why is YF-29B Perceval rendered in Japanese as パーツィバル / Pātsibaru? Where does that pronunciation come from?

I think your transliteration is off. The katakana for shi and tsu look very similar, and can be confused. Just using google translate for Percival, I got パーシバル (Pāshibaru). Also I don't know of any possible kana glide for tsi, so I don't even know how you came up with that.

Also, could you name your source? I'm not trying to doubt you, I just want to know where you found it.

 

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

What's the real-world naming intent behind the YF-29 Durandal? For a fighter that basically supplanted the VF-25 Messiah as the designated rival to the VF-27 Lucifer, I don't see how "Durandal" is supposed to thematically oppose "Lucifer".

I would imagine that it has something to do with Durandal (orig. durendal) being a sword associated with Charlemagne and one of his Paladins, Roland. History refresher, Charlemagne was the First Holy Roman Emperor, a state which is typically thought of in conjunction with the Catholic Church, and thus as a bastion of Christianity. That, and in Christian theology, God is usually the direct counterpoint to Lucifer, though sometimes it is the Archangel Michael. Since no one uses the name Lucifer, it's fine. Naming an aircraft Michael seems weird, since Aircraft are typically named after things that evoke a visual (Eagle, Tomcat, Typhoon, Hayabusa, Schwalbe, etc...). 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

What's the real-world naming intent behind the YF-29 Durandal? For a fighter that basically supplanted the VF-25 Messiah as the designated rival to the VF-27 Lucifer, I don't see how "Durandal" is supposed to thematically oppose "Lucifer".

As I've seen it explained, the YF-29 Durandal belongs to a separate development program that was running in parallel to the YF-25 Prophecy program that Master File calls Project Triangler.  It wasn't (intentionally) related to the YF-25, (YF-26,) or YF-27, though the production-intent YF-27/VF-27 is an aircraft completed using stolen development data from the YF-29 program.

The YF-29's designation comes from its status as the new VF debuting on the 29th anniversary of the Macross franchise.  The name is a nod to an existing tradition of giving VFs with design series numbers ending in "9" to be named for swords.  The VF-19 series set the bar there pretty high by using Excalibur, a mythical sword, and riffing on that theme for special variants like the VF-19EF's "Caliburn" and VF-19ACTIVE's "Nothung".  "Durandal" is a fitting name, as the mythical sword the name comes from was reputed to be the sharpest in existence and indestructible... per Kawamori, the YF-29 is the strongest VF in Macross.  There may be a very subtle nod to Sheryl there, as she was shown to be fluent in French in the series and the mythical sword Durandal is the sword of a French paladin (Roland) in French epic literature (e.g. The Matter of France).

 

Quote

Relatedly, why is YF-29B Perceval rendered in Japanese as パーツィバル / Pātsibaru? Where does that pronunciation come from?

The stories that make up the Arthurian mythos come to us from a number of different languages including Welsh, Latin, French, and German.  As a result, there are no shortage of variant names and alternate spellings.

"Percival" is only the most accepted English spelling.  It's also been rendered as Perceval, Parsifal, Parzival, etc.  It's possible they started with one of those.

It's also possible that's just a typo... like what happened to the YF-27-5.  "Shaher" is a nonsense pseudoword.  The correct spelling, "Shahar", is a Hebrew word that was translated as "Lucifer" in the translation of the Book of Isaiah from Hebrew into Latin.  Translating foreign words into katakana is a somewhat imprecise science due to differing rules of pronunciation between languages.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Seto Kaiba