Seto Kaiba Posted July 6 Posted July 6 12 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said: Would a production ready YF-21 resemble a VF-22? Considering that they would have to scale back the BDI and BCS for the VF-22 since the BDI/BCS had a few hiccups as the primary control system. We've got to be careful with our terms here. To call something "production ready" means that the design is complete, fully validated, and ready to enter mass production as-is with no further changes. A "production ready" YF-21 would yield a production VF-21 that was functionally indistinguishable from the prototype, similar to how the VF-19A is essentially identical to the final YF-19 prototype. Development of the YF-21 never reached that level, though. General Galaxy's design team took the data collected during the competitive testing phase of Project Super Nova and what they were able to learn from the loss of the YF-21-2 prototype during the Sharon Apple Incident and went back to the drawing board. They revised their next-generation VF's design extensively enough that the first prototype based on that revised design (YF-21-3 according to Master File) was issued a new design number and became YF-22 (YF-22-1) instead. It was that new YF-22 prototype that was developed to production readiness and eventually entered production and military service as the VF-22. What it takes to make the YF-21 production-ready are the changes that made it the YF-22 and then VF-22. 3 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said: Given that you mentioned about it, what could be the changes done onto a theoratical VF-21F ro make it easier to control and produce? Since that was the goal of the VF-19F The YF-21 didn't necessarily have the same design issues the YF-19 did. Granted, both did have issues with their thrust-to-weight ratios in excess of 10:1 putting extraordinary strain on the pilots, but the more conventional aerodynamics of the YF-21 and VF-22 make them more stable and less inclined to the kind of maneuverability control issues that plagued the YF-19 and VF-19. It also had the Inertia Vector Control System, which could to an extent protect the cockpit from high g-forces during maneuvers where it was active as a side effect of its operation. It didn't need the same kind of extensive redesign as the VF-19... and the extensive redesign it DID need it got when it made the jump from YF-21-2 to YF-22. If the issues with the Brainwave Control System that promped that redesign from YF-21 to YF-22 never existed, there wouldn't be any need for a later major rework of the design like the VF-19 got. What ultimately killed the YF-21/VF-22 in the official setting was that neither of its problems - the unreliability of the brainwave control system and the high price tag - were entirely fixable. That insane performance came with an equally insane price tag, and the brainwave control system's instability came from the fact that the human brain just isn't anything like as precise or stable as the concept required. Switching back to conventional controls was General Galaxy's only way to produce an aircraft pilots could actually rely on, but the development of a thought-based control system did continue in the form of the implant system that would be used on the VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei and VF-27 Lucifer, which solved the reliability issues at the source by computerizing part of the pilot's brain and interfacing the Valkyrie's computer with that. Instead of the Valkyrie trying to accurately read the pilot's brainwaves through their skull, the implant could read the neural activity directly and connect to the flight control system over a more reliable short-ranged wireless data link. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 6 Posted July 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: We've got to be careful with our terms here. To call something "production ready" means that the design is complete, fully validated, and ready to enter mass production as-is with no further changes. A "production ready" YF-21 would yield a production VF-21 that was functionally indistinguishable from the prototype, similar to how the VF-19A is essentially identical to the final YF-19 prototype. Development of the YF-21 never reached that level, though. General Galaxy's design team took the data collected during the competitive testing phase of Project Super Nova and what they were able to learn from the loss of the YF-21-2 prototype during the Sharon Apple Incident and went back to the drawing board. They revised their next-generation VF's design extensively enough that the first prototype based on that revised design (YF-21-3 according to Master File) was issued a new design number and became YF-22 (YF-22-1) instead. It was that new YF-22 prototype that was developed to production readiness and eventually entered production and military service as the VF-22. What it takes to make the YF-21 production-ready are the changes that made it the YF-22 and then VF-22. The YF-21 didn't necessarily have the same design issues the YF-19 did. Granted, both did have issues with their thrust-to-weight ratios in excess of 10:1 putting extraordinary strain on the pilots, but the more conventional aerodynamics of the YF-21 and VF-22 make them more stable and less inclined to the kind of maneuverability control issues that plagued the YF-19 and VF-19. It also had the Inertia Vector Control System, which could to an extent protect the cockpit from high g-forces during maneuvers where it was active as a side effect of its operation. It didn't need the same kind of extensive redesign as the VF-19... and the extensive redesign it DID need it got when it made the jump from YF-21-2 to YF-22. If the issues with the Brainwave Control System that promped that redesign from YF-21 to YF-22 never existed, there wouldn't be any need for a later major rework of the design like the VF-19 got. What ultimately killed the YF-21/VF-22 in the official setting was that neither of its problems - the unreliability of the brainwave control system and the high price tag - were entirely fixable. That insane performance came with an equally insane price tag, and the brainwave control system's instability came from the fact that the human brain just isn't anything like as precise or stable as the concept required. Switching back to conventional controls was General Galaxy's only way to produce an aircraft pilots could actually rely on, but the development of a thought-based control system did continue in the form of the implant system that would be used on the VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei and VF-27 Lucifer, which solved the reliability issues at the source by computerizing part of the pilot's brain and interfacing the Valkyrie's computer with that. Instead of the Valkyrie trying to accurately read the pilot's brainwaves through their skull, the implant could read the neural activity directly and connect to the flight control system over a more reliable short-ranged wireless data link. Yeah; I thought I had posted something about the differences between the YF-21 and the VF-22, but it seems to have vanished. O.o (that or I forgot to hit "enter" when I posted it). As to GG and their "computerizing part of the pilot's brain": more implant and mind-control tech from the company who enslaved an entire fleet. Edited July 6 by pengbuzz Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 6 Posted July 6 2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: Yeah; I thought I had posted something about the differences between the YF-21 and the VF-22, but it seems to have vanished. O.o No, it's still there on the previous page... I can see it. 2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: As to GG and their "computerizing part of the pilot's brain": more implant and mind-control tech from the company who enslaved an entire fleet. The same implant and mind-control tech, really... The same implant that allows Brera to be controlled by the Galaxy Executives is also what allows him to pilot his VF-27 by thought alone... when he tears it out of his head at the end of The Wings of Goodbye he has to switch to using the backup manual controls in his VF-27's cockpit and eject the armored canopy cover so he can see out. It makes sense... after all, if you can already bidirectionally read the pilot's thoughts and send data back to them to allow them to "see" via the aircraft's sensors and so on, you can alos manipulate their senses for other purposes and potentially introduce thoughts through the same feedback system. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 6 Posted July 6 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: No, it's still there on the previous page... I can see it. Thanks Seto; some days, my brain plays weird tricks on me. :_ 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: The same implant and mind-control tech, really... The same implant that allows Brera to be controlled by the Galaxy Executives is also what allows him to pilot his VF-27 by thought alone... when he tears it out of his head at the end of The Wings of Goodbye he has to switch to using the backup manual controls in his VF-27's cockpit and eject the armored canopy cover so he can see out. Well...THAT had to hurt!!! O.o 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: It makes sense... after all, if you can already bidirectionally read the pilot's thoughts and send data back to them to allow them to "see" via the aircraft's sensors and so on, you can alos manipulate their senses for other purposes and potentially introduce thoughts through the same feedback system. Mus be fun to binge Nextflix on that system... Quote
cheemingwan1234 Posted July 6 Posted July 6 1 hour ago, pengbuzz said: Thanks Seto; some days, my brain plays weird tricks on me. :_ Well...THAT had to hurt!!! O.o Mus be fun to binge Nextflix on that system... Yeah...wonder if you can use BDI as an entertainment system. Also, easier to unwatch things if needed. Quote
azrael Posted July 7 Posted July 7 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Well...THAT had to hurt!!! O.o Ummm...Brera is a cyborg. He's more machine now than man. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 7 Posted July 7 17 minutes ago, azrael said: Ummm...Brera is a cyborg. He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil? Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 7 Posted July 7 (edited) 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Well...THAT had to hurt!!! O.o Given how he reacts while tearing it out of his own skull, yeah... it probably wasn't pleasant. 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Mus be fun to binge Nextflix on that system... 43 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said: Yeah...wonder if you can use BDI as an entertainment system. Also, easier to unwatch things if needed. Definitely not worth the trouble, if what happened to the population of Macross Galaxy is any indication. Having the internet in your head sounds like a great idea until you realize it comes with giving the corporate government the ability to tweak your senses. They start out using it to tweak your perceptions of the world around you to make the grim cyberpunk urban jungle seem a little less grim and the unpalatable synthetic food taste better... but by the end you're a meat puppet and might end up with company in your own head if they decide to install a second personality to help make you a better soldier. If you die, they might go full Universal Soldier and repurpose and reprogram your grey matter in a new body to make more cyborg soldiers. (Macross the Ride and the Macross Frontier short stories from Macross Ace suggest Macross Galaxy is not a nice place to live and a cyborg is not a nice thing to be.) Edited July 7 by Seto Kaiba Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 8 Posted July 8 On 7/6/2024 at 8:40 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Given how he reacts while tearing it out of his own skull, yeah... it probably wasn't pleasant. Definitely not worth the trouble, if what happened to the population of Macross Galaxy is any indication. Having the internet in your head sounds like a great idea until you realize it comes with giving the corporate government the ability to tweak your senses. They start out using it to tweak your perceptions of the world around you to make the grim cyberpunk urban jungle seem a little less grim and the unpalatable synthetic food taste better... but by the end you're a meat puppet and might end up with company in your own head if they decide to install a second personality to help make you a better soldier. If you die, they might go full Universal Soldier and repurpose and reprogram your grey matter in a new body to make more cyborg soldiers. (Macross the Ride and the Macross Frontier short stories from Macross Ace suggest Macross Galaxy is not a nice place to live and a cyborg is not a nice thing to be.) Hmmm.... the Macross Galaxy fleet turns out to be the origin of The Borg... Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 8 Posted July 8 13 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: Hmmm.... the Macross Galaxy fleet turns out to be the origin of The Borg... That would be far less stupid than any of the origins for the Borg that have shown up in Star Trek's (thankfully non-canonical) expanded universe. Spoiler Perhaps the worst, and most official, of which being the one from the Star Trek "relaunch" novelverse. Star Trek: Destiny was a truly dreadful crossover between the "relaunch" novel lines for Star Trek: the Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Enterprise, and the TNG spinoff Star Trek: Titan where it was revealed that the crew of the NX-02 Columbia accidentally created the Borg. The story is unbearably tedious... Spoiler ... but the gist is that the Columbia was damaged and stumbled across an ancient isolationist species called the Caeliar who made the surviving crew permanent "guests" on their world, and a botched escape attempt flung the escapees and their Caeliar prisoner thousands of years back in time and into the Delta Quadrant. The dying Caeliar fused its nanomachines with the surviving Human escapees in a desperate attempt to survive and they became the first Borg... with the remnants of the dying Caeliar's mind now forming the hive mind and its singleminded desire to assimilate and consume. That series also features the Borg launching their final offensive against the Federation... in which they were out to simply destroy the Federation instead of assimilate it, which was foiled when Erika Hernandez, the Columbia's captain, destroyed the Borg hive mind from within and the Caeliar de-assimilated all the surviving drones by turning their nanomachines back into Caeliar ones before taking all the surviving drones with them to parts unknown. It massively changed the status quo by having the major powers all be severely weakened, leading to further novels seeing the Federation facing off against an alliance of their usual opponents called the Typhon Pact (made up of the Romulans, Breen, Gorn, Tholians, Tzenkethi, and a novel-original species called the Kinshaya) in a thinly veiled NATO vs. Warsaw Pact analogy. Thankfully, it's unlikely to come to pass given that the Macross Galaxy fleet was either massively crippled or outright destroyed. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 8 Posted July 8 18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: That would be far less stupid than any of the origins for the Borg that have shown up in Star Trek's (thankfully non-canonical) expanded universe. Hide contents Perhaps the worst, and most official, of which being the one from the Star Trek "relaunch" novelverse. Star Trek: Destiny was a truly dreadful crossover between the "relaunch" novel lines for Star Trek: the Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Enterprise, and the TNG spinoff Star Trek: Titan where it was revealed that the crew of the NX-02 Columbia accidentally created the Borg. The story is unbearably tedious... Hide contents ... but the gist is that the Columbia was damaged and stumbled across an ancient isolationist species called the Caeliar who made the surviving crew permanent "guests" on their world, and a botched escape attempt flung the escapees and their Caeliar prisoner thousands of years back in time and into the Delta Quadrant. The dying Caeliar fused its nanomachines with the surviving Human escapees in a desperate attempt to survive and they became the first Borg... with the remnants of the dying Caeliar's mind now forming the hive mind and its singleminded desire to assimilate and consume. That series also features the Borg launching their final offensive against the Federation... in which they were out to simply destroy the Federation instead of assimilate it, which was foiled when Erika Hernandez, the Columbia's captain, destroyed the Borg hive mind from within and the Caeliar de-assimilated all the surviving drones by turning their nanomachines back into Caeliar ones before taking all the surviving drones with them to parts unknown. It massively changed the status quo by having the major powers all be severely weakened, leading to further novels seeing the Federation facing off against an alliance of their usual opponents called the Typhon Pact (made up of the Romulans, Breen, Gorn, Tholians, Tzenkethi, and a novel-original species called the Kinshaya) in a thinly veiled NATO vs. Warsaw Pact analogy. Thankfully, it's unlikely to come to pass given that the Macross Galaxy fleet was either massively crippled or outright destroyed. Personally, it always made me wonder if the "machine world" V'Ger encountered (per ST:TMP) could have been retconned as the Borg homeworld. Guessing that idea has also been floated as well, right? Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 8 Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: Personally, it always made me wonder if the "machine world" V'Ger encountered (per ST:TMP) could have been retconned as the Borg homeworld. Guessing that idea has also been floated as well, right? Yuuuuup. They have more multiple choice pasts than the Joker at this point. Just in case folks thought Macross's fuzzy canon was frustrating. Quote
JB0 Posted July 8 Posted July 8 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Personally, it always made me wonder if the "machine world" V'Ger encountered (per ST:TMP) could have been retconned as the Borg homeworld. Guessing that idea has also been floated as well, right? V'ger's been connected to the Borg a few different times. Though Cybertron seems a more likely origin. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 8 Posted July 8 It's actually kind of odd that we haven't seen a planet of machine life in Macross, come to think of it... Unless you want to count the Dyaus on Uroboros, but they're not so much purely technological as organic technology. I guess the ancient Protoculture's obsession with bioengineering that they got from studying the Vajra never put them in the position of creating purely technological life. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 8 Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: It's actually kind of odd that we haven't seen a planet of machine life in Macross, come to think of it... Unless you want to count the Dyaus on Uroboros, but they're not so much purely technological as organic technology. I guess the ancient Protoculture's obsession with bioengineering that they got from studying the Vajra never put them in the position of creating purely technological life. Huh... imagine a machine intelligence infected a NUNS fleet and all its' mecha came to life? Quote
Bolt Posted July 8 Posted July 8 17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: It's actually kind of odd that we haven't seen a planet of machine life in Macross, come to think of it... Unless you want to count the Dyaus on Uroboros, but they're not so much purely technological as organic technology. I guess the ancient Protoculture's obsession with bioengineering that they got from studying the Vajra never put them in the position of creating purely technological life. Considering the vastness of the Universe, surely there are other entities, life, etc. beyond the Protoculture and what they've touched. Macross could certainly explore this more than space whales. 15 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: Huh... imagine a machine intelligence infected a NUNS fleet and all its' mecha came to life? Ya like that. Sounds scary, like that old Steven King story.. 33 minutes ago, JB0 said: V'ger's been connected to the Borg a few different times. Though Cybertron seems a more likely origin. agreed Quote
cheemingwan1234 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 16 hours ago, Bolt said: Considering the vastness of the Universe, surely there are other entities, life, etc. beyond the Protoculture and what they've touched. Macross could certainly explore this more than space whales. Ya like that. Sounds scary, like that old Steven King story.. agreed It will be like the Sharon Apple Incident all over again. Quote
Big s Posted July 9 Posted July 9 18 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Huh... imagine a machine intelligence infected a NUNS fleet and all its' mecha came to life? They’d probably decide never to play pop music ever again and use their soundboosters to play nothing but techno and industrial, but they’d start a civil war when one faction tries to bring back dubstep and they’d just wipe eachother out. Quote
aurance Posted July 9 Posted July 9 21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Yuuuuup. They have more multiple choice pasts than the Joker at this point. Just in case folks thought Macross's fuzzy canon was frustrating. Star Trek's canon is pretty clear - I'd say as clear as Macross is, especially considering just how much screen material there is and how many different people were at the helm, so to speak. The general policy is that all the stuff that happens on screen is canon, and that stuff is relatively consistent. Almost all of the published works are licensed but not canon, and can be overridden by screen material at any time, and can contradict each other as much as the authors wish. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 9 Posted July 9 18 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Huh... imagine a machine intelligence infected a NUNS fleet and all its' mecha came to life? That'd be wild... though I'd wonder how they'd explain it, since in Macross self-aware AI requires specific hardware. 19 hours ago, JB0 said: V'ger's been connected to the Borg a few different times. Though Cybertron seems a more likely origin. The irony there is that, in that same relaunch timeline, the planet V'Ger's actually from might as well be Cybertron... if Cybertron had its sh*t together. 17 minutes ago, aurance said: Star Trek's canon is pretty clear - I'd say as clear as Macross is, especially considering just how much screen material there is and how many different people were at the helm, so to speak. The general policy is that all the stuff that happens on screen is canon, and that stuff is relatively consistent. Almost all of the published works are licensed but not canon, and can be overridden by screen material at any time, and can contradict each other as much as the authors wish. Oh, I know... that's why I called it "Star Trek's (thankfully non-canoncial) expanded universe" a few posts back. Even then, there's still a lot of "multiple choice past" in play... to a level that makes Macross's fuzzy canon seem blissfully clear by comparison. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 9 Posted July 9 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: That'd be wild... though I'd wonder how they'd explain it, since in Macross self-aware AI requires specific hardware. Some Borg nanites... a few hours...you never know... Lady M gets desperate and makes contact somehow with the Borg... Edited July 9 by pengbuzz Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 hour ago, pengbuzz said: Some Borg nanites... a few hours...you never know... Lady M gets desperate and makes contact somehow with the Borg... Hell, we don't even know for sure that Lady M is a flesh-and-blood person... she could be some random Protoculture artifact that's stranded the Megaroad-01 in fold space or some other nonsense like that. The restrictions on future international releases means they'll probably abandon that whole plotline, though. For the best, IMO, considering what a mess everything to do with the eternally-offscreen character was. Quote
cheemingwan1234 Posted July 11 Posted July 11 (edited) Do the limbs of a Zentraedi soldier go inside a Zentraedi power suit's limbs ? I'm pretty sure that it would be a good idea in a fight to go for the limbs and cut them off to make them bleed out. Edited July 11 by cheemingwan1234 Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 11 Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said: Do the limbs of a Zentraedi soldier go inside a Zentraedi power suit's limbs ? I'm pretty sure that it would be a good idea in a fight to go for the limbs and cut them off to make them bleed out. It depends on the model of battle suit, but the answer is yes and no. Typically, the battle suit pilot's legs extend into the legs of the battle suit but the arms are kept inside the battle suit's torso. The Queadluun Rhea seems to be the exception, with the pilot having a sort of squatting posture inside the torso similar to a Regult and all four limbs control remotely. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 11 Posted July 11 Here's another view that shows the pilot with the arms still inside the torso. Quote
Big s Posted July 11 Posted July 11 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: It depends on the model of battle suit, but the answer is yes and no. Typically, the battle suit pilot's legs extend into the legs of the battle suit but the arms are kept inside the battle suit's torso. The Queadluun Rhea seems to be the exception, with the pilot having a sort of squatting posture inside the torso similar to a Regult and all four limbs control remotely. I’ve always had a hard time finding images of the Rhea variant showing how the legs fit, I thought it was like the Rau, but never been sure Quote
Nemus Posted July 11 Posted July 11 in my opinion the YF-21 mind control system was abandoned too soon. It should have been developed and improved. Imagine the reaction times on modern fighters like the VF-31AX Quote
twich Posted July 11 Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Nemus said: in my opinion the YF-21 mind control system was abandoned too soon. It should have been developed and improved. Imagine the reaction times on modern fighters like the VF-31AX If I am not mistaken, the VF-27 has a refined BDS/BDI system that only works with cyborg implants. Twich Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 11 Posted July 11 4 hours ago, Nemus said: in my opinion the YF-21 mind control system was abandoned too soon. It should have been developed and improved. Imagine the reaction times on modern fighters like the VF-31AX Yeah; nearly as fast as when a cat hears a can of cat food being opened. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 11 Posted July 11 7 hours ago, Big s said: I’ve always had a hard time finding images of the Rhea variant showing how the legs fit, I thought it was like the Rau, but never been sure Yeah, I don't think there are any good images of the Queadluun Rhea cockpit. The decent description of the cockpit actually comes from the Macross Frontier novelization. 3 hours ago, Nemus said: in my opinion the YF-21 mind control system was abandoned too soon. It should have been developed and improved. Imagine the reaction times on modern fighters like the VF-31AX The YF-21's brainwave direct control system was incredibly innovative... but the technology was so unstable and so expensive that it was deemed impractical for actual battlefield use compared to the more conventional AI-based flight control systems that'd been used on VFs from the beginning. Official materials mention the brainwave direct control system (BDS) was considered unsuitable for practical use because the system was both extremely expensive and prone to failure because it required the pilot maintain an extreme degree of concentration to operate. Variable Fighter Master File predictably offers a LOT more on the subject. According to Master File, the YF-21's BDS calibrations were so delicate that the pilot basically could not move while it was in operation. The pilot's limbs and head had to be locked in place and rendered immobile to prevent the instrumentation for reading and transmitting brainwave signals shifts even 10mm it can cause the system accuracy to drop over 40% and trigger an automatic emergency switchover to manual control. To maintain control, the mental state of the pilot has to be controlled using specially tailored sound to help the pilot remain relaxed because loss of focus can cause the system to behave erratically or fail. The system also requires hundreds of hours of separate training to get the system calibrated to the individual pilot's brain, is extremely heavy (over 100kg just for the imaging system parts), and consumes so much power that the YF-21/VF-22's engine design had to be changed to run the reactor hotter and double the number of thermoelectric converters so it could produce twice the amount of energy the VF-19 requires at maximum output in order to meet the energy demands of the BDS on top of its other systems. (Those changes made to the engine design are also said to have increased the cost of the engine significantly while also reducing its lifespan.) The system was dramatically scaled back to a sub-control system on the production VF-22 with considerably fewer issues, but development did continue at General Galaxy. The implant-based control system in the Macross Galaxy fleet's VF-27 Lucifer is a further development of the YF-21's BDI/BDS systems. It's a much more mature and reliable system, but it's also basically illegal because of the New UN Gov't ban on cybernetically-reinforced soldiers. 2 hours ago, twich said: If I am not mistaken, the VF-27 has a refined BDS/BDI system that only works with cyborg implants. Yup, that system was trialed on the VF-22HG and implemented in full on the YF-27 and VF-27. Quote
pengbuzz Posted July 11 Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: The YF-21's brainwave direct control system was incredibly innovative... but the technology was so unstable and so expensive that it was deemed impractical for actual battlefield use compared to the more conventional AI-based flight control systems that'd been used on VFs from the beginning. Official materials mention the brainwave direct control system (BDS) was considered unsuitable for practical use because the system was both extremely expensive and prone to failure because it required the pilot maintain an extreme degree of concentration to operate. Variable Fighter Master File predictably offers a LOT more on the subject. According to Master File, the YF-21's BDS calibrations were so delicate that the pilot basically could not move while it was in operation. The pilot's limbs and head had to be locked in place and rendered immobile to prevent the instrumentation for reading and transmitting brainwave signals shifts even 10mm it can cause the system accuracy to drop over 40% and trigger an automatic emergency switchover to manual control. To maintain control, the mental state of the pilot has to be controlled using specially tailored sound to help the pilot remain relaxed because loss of focus can cause the system to behave erratically or fail. The system also requires hundreds of hours of separate training to get the system calibrated to the individual pilot's brain, is extremely heavy (over 100kg just for the imaging system parts), and consumes so much power that the YF-21/VF-22's engine design had to be changed to run the reactor hotter and double the number of thermoelectric converters so it could produce twice the amount of energy the VF-19 requires at maximum output in order to meet the energy demands of the BDS on top of its other systems. (Those changes made to the engine design are also said to have increased the cost of the engine significantly while also reducing its lifespan.) I'm not sure I trust the VFMF's take on that, as that would also mean the pilot couldn't breathe without disturbing it, either. O.o On that note (spoilered since some folks ma not have seen M+ and there's a new release comign out for it): Spoiler in M+, Guld was obviously having mental/ psychological issues that required him to take some type of pill. We also know that he had repressed memories of the incident between him, Isamu and Myung. Is it possible that the reason the system was so unstable is that Guld's mind was unstable and thus influenced and destabilized it? Or is it the system that caused instability in his mind due to the stress of continual focus required? Maybe an endless loop of each antagonizing the other's issues? We did also see in M+ that as soon as Guld saw Isamu open the heat shield on his VF-11 (during the Omega-1 missile practice run), he had an emotional reaction to Isamu Dyson, and the system went haywire. He ended up dropping like a rock and Dyson had to be ordered to rescue him by Millard. Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 11 Posted July 11 43 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: I'm not sure I trust the VFMF's take on that, as that would also mean the pilot couldn't breathe without disturbing it, either. O.o From the sound of it, breathing's about all the pilot's allowed to do... but their head's held completely immobile the entire time they're in the aircraft. 43 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: Hide contents in M+, Guld was obviously having mental/ psychological issues that required him to take some type of pill. We also know that he had repressed memories of the incident between him, Isamu and Myung. Is it possible that the reason the system was so unstable is that Guld's mind was unstable and thus influenced and destabilized it? Or is it the system that caused instability in his mind due to the stress of continual focus required? Maybe an endless loop of each antagonizing the other's issues? We did also see in M+ that as soon as Guld saw Isamu open the heat shield on his VF-11 (during the Omega-1 missile practice run), he had an emotional reaction to Isamu Dyson, and the system went haywire. He ended up dropping like a rock and Dyson had to be ordered to rescue him by Millard. Available material either strongly suggests or outright indicates the problem was not unique to Guld... the system really is just that flaky. Spoiler So much so that Master File asserts that the experiments with a VF-22-based bomber ran into trouble because you couldn't have two crew members who didn't like each other because that'd bleed into the system and affect performance. Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II does actually address that topic at length. Guld's problem was far from unique. Apparently many first generation Peace Children like him suffered some anger/aggression management issues as a legacy of their Zentradi parent's genetics. It's mentioned that this was initially controlled with medication like we see Guld taking, and eventually a gene therapy treatment was developed that cured it completely. The system was already unstable/inordinately sensitive, but Guld's own mental instability did not help matters because maintaining control of the BDS requires an extreme amount of focus and distractions (esp. emotional distractions) can compromise that. Quote
Nemus Posted July 11 Posted July 11 (edited) when I read the data sheet of the VF-27 I immediately assumed that it was stronger than the YF-29 precisely because of the BDS. I had naively thought that having both 4 engines they were on the same level, and that the BDS would have made the difference. But I was told that the VF-29 defeated both the VF-27 and 3 drones at the same time..........how it did it still escapes me. Anyway, even if the BDS is extremely expensive and complex to maintain, I think it would have been nice if there was a single aircraft in the hands of an ace, equipped with BDS, perhaps an aircraft in an extreme variant, such as the VF-31X4. Are there any variants of the YF-30 in the master files? Like those of the VF-31? Edited July 11 by Nemus Quote
Seto Kaiba Posted July 11 Posted July 11 7 minutes ago, Nemus said: when I read the data sheet of the VF-27 I immediately assumed that it was stronger than the YF-29 precisely because of the BDS. I had naively thought that having both 4 engines they were on the same level, and that the BDS would have made the difference. But I was told that the VF-29 defeated both the VF-27 and 3 drones at the same time..........how it did it still escapes me. Strictly speaking, they are pretty close. Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheet for the VF-27γ Lucifer with Super Parts from Macross Frontier the Movie: the Wings of Farewell describes it as having demonstrated potential approaching that of the YF-29. The movie's liner notes, and the light novel Macross the Ride, reveal that the VF-27 is based on the YF-29 in part using development data leaked to Macross Galaxy. It is, however, true that Alto Saotome's YF-29 defeated Brera Sterne's VF-27γSP and its escorting Ghosts in a dogfight in that movie. It was a victory won on skill and tactics, not simply raw specs. Alto made exceptional use of the YF-29's unique features like its MDE beam turret and Super parts to take out the Ghosts. One thing to remember in Macross, pilot skill matters at least as much as machine specs. 7 minutes ago, Nemus said: Anyway, even if the BDS is extremely expensive and complex to maintain, I think it would have been nice if there was a single aircraft in the hands of an ace, equipped with BDS, perhaps an aircraft in an extreme variant, such as the VF-31X4. Well, we have the VF-27 Lucifer... that's pretty high spec all things considered, and at least a limited mass production VF to boot. 7 minutes ago, Nemus said: Are there any variants of the YF-30 in the master files? Like those of the VF-31? Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried mentions two: the YF-30B and YF-30B改. (YF-30B Custom) Master File describes the YF-30B as being a second and more practical prototype that omitted the extraordinarily expensive Fold Dimensional Resonance system and FF-3001/FC2 engines because of their need for ultra-high purity fold quartz. It's said that the YF-30B prototypes were loaned out to various private military contractors like SMS and its affiliates for evaluation. Favorable impressions of the YF-30B led to plans to develop a mass production derivative of the YF-30B that, after much work, became the VF-31A Kairos. It's also noted that the YF-30B apparently gave rise to the (false) impression that there was a mass production VF-30 in service. The YF-30B改 is an improved YF-30B that was used in small numbers by General Galaxy's private military, the General Galaxy Corporate Forces (GGCF). Quote
Master Dex Posted July 11 Posted July 11 16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: It is, however, true that Alto Saotome's YF-29 defeated Brera Sterne's VF-27γSP and its escorting Ghosts in a dogfight in that movie. It was a victory won on skill and tactics, not simply raw specs. Alto made exceptional use of the YF-29's unique features like its MDE beam turret and Super parts to take out the Ghosts. One thing to remember in Macross, pilot skill matters at least as much as machine specs. Very much true, plus the YF-29 has the Fold Wave system and it was almost certainly boosting Alto's already noteworthy skill. Quote
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