Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

46 minutes ago, sketchley said:

I say "fourth" because of the way that "Macross the Ride" indicates that Stonewell and Bellcom are separate companies: "新星を中心に新中州重工、ストンウェル社、ベルコム社の各社航空部門が．．．"

 

So, pending the source, it's either "three companies" (Macross Chronicle glossay entry), or "four companies" (Macross the Ride).

Yeah... Stonewell AND Bellcom vs. Stonewell Bellcom is one of those long-running inconsistencies in how the company names are presented in Macross publications.

I mentioned it a while ago while I was going over the VF-0 book, but Master File took a whack at explaining away the inconsistency as "Stonewell Bellcom" being a joint venture by the separate companies Stonewell and Bellcom dedicated to variable fighter development.

 

46 minutes ago, sketchley said:

I think you've got two distinct companies confused:  "Shinsei" and "Shinsei Industry".  Or did you intend to write "Shinsei Industry" for the M+ and M7 era?

That's the thing... the founded-in-2012 Shinsei Industry was the ONLY company named Shinsei in the setting until Macross Zero.  The Macross Plus and Macross 7-era materials all list only three companies involved in the creation of Shinsei in 2012: Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu.

The creative team working on Macross Zero seems to have forgotten that Shinsei Industry was founded after the First Space War and erroneously credited them as codevelopers on the VF-0... four years before the company was founded in-universe.

The "second Shinsei" mentioned in Macross the Ride and Macross Chronicle appears to be an attempt by the creators to explain this continuity problem away by breaking the One Steve Limit and retroactively adding this second Shinsei company to the aforementioned merger which previously did not mention or include any such company.

Master File, as noted, attempts to explain this in more detail by claiming the pre-war Shinsei Industry (written 新星工業 as opposed to 新星インダストリー) was a developer of land warfare weapons systems and subsidiary of shipbuilding firm Yashu Heavy Industries.

(And yes, the fact that they're both named Shinsei Industry really takes the cake...)

Edited June 3 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The creative team working on Macross Zero seems to have forgotten that Shinsei Industry was founded after the First Space War and erroneously credited them as codevelopers on the VF-0... four years before the company was founded in-universe.

There's only one reasonable explanation. The VF-0 is based on reverse-engineered technology found in the wieckage ofs a time-displaced VF-11. The Shinsei brand was used for these experimental machines in honor of the source.

[Bolt]

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

There's only one reasonable explanation. The VF-0 is based on reverse-engineered technology found in the wieckage ofs a time-displaced VF-11. The Shinsei brand was used for these experimental machines in honor of the source.

Sound logic 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

There's only one reasonable explanation. The VF-0 is based on reverse-engineered technology found in the wieckage ofs a time-displaced VF-11. The Shinsei brand was used for these experimental machines in honor of the source.

The whole situation is made worse by the fact there are at least two VF-0 models that are built by post 2012 Shinsei Industry between the official setting and Master File.

In Master File, Shinsei Industry was responsible for a reproduction VF-0 to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the first space war armistice. In Macross 30, they're presumably the ones behind the reproduction VF-0 models that are used all over Uroboros.

[TG Remix]

16 hours ago, JB0 said:

There's only one reasonable explanation. The VF-0 is based on reverse-engineered technology found in the wieckage ofs a time-displaced VF-11. The Shinsei brand was used for these experimental machines in honor of the source.

Well Macross 30 did have a time travel part that's officially a part of the timeline lol

 

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The whole situation is made worse by the fact there are at least two VF-0 models that are built by post 2012 Shinsei Industry between the official setting and Master File.

In Master File, Shinsei Industry was responsible for a reproduction VF-0 to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the first space war armistice. In Macross 30, they're presumably the ones behind the reproduction VF-0 models that are used all over Uroboros.

You know with regular aircraft I can understand them only looking like an older design and under the hood there's a new one. But with the reproduction VF-0s and SV-51s, those have to factor in the entire transformation aspect. Would these reproduction models be almost the same as the originals but with token improvements in performance, or basically new models that somehow just look physically the same? I know for gameplay purposes you just want to have a VF-0 like how it is in Zero, but I guess I'm looking for a Watsonian answer on why they'd be commercially sold for combat when there are probably warehouses of VF-11's waiting to be used.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, TG Remix said:

You know with regular aircraft I can understand them only looking like an older design and under the hood there's a new one. But with the reproduction VF-0s and SV-51s, those have to factor in the entire transformation aspect. Would these reproduction models be almost the same as the originals but with token improvements in performance, or basically new models that somehow just look physically the same? I know for gameplay purposes you just want to have a VF-0 like how it is in Zero, but I guess I'm looking for a Watsonian answer on why they'd be commercially sold for combat when there are probably warehouses of VF-11's waiting to be used.

We've seen multiple approaches, if we consider Master File as well.

Macross the Ride's VF-0改 "Zeak" [sic]* was only superficially a VF-0.  It faithfully recreated the appearance and transformation of the VF-0, but "under the hood" the VF-0改 was for all practical intents and purposes a VF-25A-0.

Macross 30's VF-0 Replica is a less extreme example that follows the same basic approach as the VF-0改.  It was a reproduction VF-0 made with more modern materials and using systems from Shinsei Industry's VF-5000 and VF-1C** including thermonuclear reaction turbine engines.  (That makes it something akin to an upgraded version of Master File's VF-0+ Phoenix Plus, which was a VF-0 upgraded with the VF-1's engines and some other improvements that was supposedly used in the closing days of the Unification Wars, which may have been used in Macross the First as well based on creator commentary.)

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix's VF-0 "The Nostalgia" was a true reproduction of the VF-0 in as close to the state it was actually flown in as possible.  It was built as a private project by Shinsei Industry staff based on the analysis of wreckage of two VF-0A's that were recovered from the ruins of Edwards Air Force Base after the First Space War.***

 

* Should be "Zeke" not "Zeak", it's one of several Macross R references to World War II-era aircraft... in this case, the Allied nickname for the Mitsubishi A6M Zero.

** A civilian-use VF-1 variant that appeared in the Macross Frontier short story Actor's Sky and the Macross Frontier novelization.  It's used as a flight training aircraft at Mihoshi Academy, and was used by the actor who played Shin Kudo in the Bird Human movie filmed in Macross Frontier's TV series as part of research to play the character.

*** Said by Master File to have been No.07 and No.13 from the CVN-99 Asuka II's carrier air wing, which were damaged beyond repair during the Mayan Island incident and transferred to Edwards AFB for storage before the First Space War ruined everything.

[deathzealot]

So I have a quick question about the overall true size for the Macross Quarter and the rest of its class. First of all, I am quite aware of the canon dimensions of the ship but there are a few out there who think the Quarter is quite larger than it is supposed to be really. I remember someone earlier in this thread or maybe another thread on this site did some calculations using some screenshots of the hangar and the elevators of the Quarter to come up with better dimensions than the canon ones. That was after they mentioned that it was quite hard to have the Quarter carry its official compliment not to mention the three Battle Suits of Pixie Team and the single Konig Monster. Shrug. Does anyone know where this post is or actually know the revised dimensions? Thanks in advance.

[Seto Kaiba]

That topic has come up a few times, usually in connection with Circle FANKY's Battleships of the Galaxy doujinshi and its questionable assessment of the ship's interior layout as a fanmade work.

I'm afraid I don't remember offhand who it was who posted it... but it was at least a year ago.

[guyxxed]

Don't know if this is the thread in mind, but there was some discussion of the Quarter's size here:

 

[deathzealot]

On 6/9/2024 at 5:39 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

That topic has come up a few times, usually in connection with Circle FANKY's Battleships of the Galaxy doujinshi and its questionable assessment of the ship's interior layout as a fanmade work.

I'm afraid I don't remember offhand who it was who posted it... but it was at least a year ago.

Understood. Thanks for the help Seto.

21 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Don't know if this is the thread in mind, but there was some discussion of the Quarter's size here:

 

Hmmm... That is quite interesting and there is a sort-of bit of dimensions in there which I could use for what I need. Thanks.

[pengbuzz]

On 6/9/2024 at 8:39 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

That topic has come up a few times, usually in connection with Circle FANKY's Battleships of the Galaxy doujinshi and its questionable assessment of the ship's interior layout as a fanmade work.

I'm afraid I don't remember offhand who it was who posted it... but it was at least a year ago.

I'm guessing that their layouts are pretty much "whatever we come up with that sounds good"?

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I'm guessing that their layouts are pretty much "whatever we come up with that sounds good"?

In methodology, it's not much different to what Palladium Books did when they gave some internal layouts for various Macross ships in the original Robotech RPG or when they got Dream Pod 9 to design whole books of internal layouts for ships in Macross II: Lovers Again.

They basically just tried to fill the internal space with strictly rectangular rooms and then tried to see how many silhouettes of VFs they could fit into those spaces.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In methodology, it's not much different to what Palladium Books did when they gave some internal layouts for various Macross ships in the original Robotech RPG or when they got Dream Pod 9 to design whole books of internal layouts for ships in Macross II: Lovers Again.

They basically just tried to fill the internal space with strictly rectangular rooms and then tried to see how many silhouettes of VFs they could fit into those spaces.

*imagines a bunch of VF's stuffed into a telephone booth, like what college kids used to do in the old days*

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

*imagines a bunch of VF's stuffed into a telephone booth, like what college kids used to do in the old days*

There are definitely some legit cases of that in Macross.

Operation Stargazer in Macross 7 is probably the best example of that.  Northampton-class stealth frigates can carry a single platoon of Valkyries normally... that's 3-4 aircraft.  For Operation Stargazer, Max somehow managed to squeeze about three dozen Valkyries into the frigate Stargazer for his surprise attack.  An entire Super Thunderbolt squadron, Max himself in a VF-22S, Diamond Force, Emerald Force, AND Sound Force.  There's no way that physically works, let alone as spaceously as the series made out.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are definitely some legit cases of that in Macross.

Operation Stargazer in Macross 7 is probably the best example of that.  Northampton-class stealth frigates can carry a single platoon of Valkyries normally... that's 3-4 aircraft.  For Operation Stargazer, Max somehow managed to squeeze about three dozen Valkyries into the frigate Stargazer for his surprise attack.  An entire Super Thunderbolt squadron, Max himself in a VF-22S, Diamond Force, Emerald Force, AND Sound Force.  There's no way that physically works, let alone as spaceously as the series made out.

I wonder how much they had to strip out of the ship to accomplish that (if possible)?

Edited July 4 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder how much they had to strip out of the ship to accomplish that (if possible)?

They don't mention anything, but I'd assume they probably stripped out absolutely everything they could to make room for all of that.

[pengbuzz]

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They don't mention anything, but I'd assume they probably stripped out absolutely everything they could to make room for all of that.

Taking a closer look, I did some research and a bit of math.

Let's get a head count here:

Max (VF-22)- 1

VF-11 Squadron - 12

Sound Force - 3

Diamond Force- 3

Emerald Force - 3

TOTAL- 22 Valkyries.

Then I went and looked up the complement at the Macross Mecha Manual, and this is what the page for the Northampton Frigate said:

Variable Mecha: approx 37 x variable fighters (28 x VF-11C Thunderbolts, 4 x VF-17 Nightmare, 4 x VF-19 Excalibur + landing pod and 1 x VF-22S Sturmvogel II + fold booster aboard Stargazer, 2046 February (emphasis mine in underline bold).

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/northampton-stealthfrigate.htm

Not trying to be a jerk or contradict you Seto, but it looks like from the info they could do it easily (unless I'm reading stuff wrong here).

Edited July 4 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Taking a closer look, I did some research and a bit of math.

Let's get a head count here:

[...]

VF-11 Squadron - 12

What little information we've gotten WRT squadron organization in the Spacy has put the number of aircraft per squadron at somewhere between 15 and 24.

The sample org chart from the TV series era showed 15, organized into five three-plane platoons.  Hikaru's original callsign in the TV series made him Skull 23, and various tech publications like Sky Angels and the later Master File series seem to favor a larger size closer to 24.  (Sky Angels suggests there were approximately 62 squadrons active in the days before the end of the First Space War, accounting for approximately 1500 aircraft... which breaks down to a bit over 24 aircraft per squadron.)

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Then I went and looked up the complement at the Macross Mecha Manual, and this is what the page for the Northampton Frigate said:

Variable Mecha: approx 37 x variable fighters (28 x VF-11C Thunderbolts, 4 x VF-17 Nightmare, 4 x VF-19 Excalibur + landing pod and 1 x VF-22S Sturmvogel II + fold booster aboard Stargazer, 2046 February (emphasis mine in underline bold).

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/northampton-stealthfrigate.htm

Not trying to be a jerk or contradict you Seto, but it looks like from the info they could do it easily (unless I'm reading stuff wrong here).

What he's citing is the Operation Stargazer taskforce.

(Note the "aboard Stargazer, 2046 February".)

IIRC, the only time we've seen the Northampton-class deploying fighters in normal operations was Macross 7 PLUS "Spiritia Dreaming", and they're shown deploying no more than a platoon (of VF-14s) in a completely different manner (via a ventral hatch instead of through the missile launchers.

(I'm not counting the Gefion, the Northampton-class light carrier variant from Macross 30 which had an arbitrarily large hangar as a game mechanic.)

Edited July 4 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What little information we've gotten WRT squadron organization in the Spacy has put the number of aircraft per squadron at somewhere between 15 and 24.

The sample org chart from the TV series era showed 15, organized into five three-plane platoons.  Hikaru's original callsign in the TV series made him Skull 23, and various tech publications like Sky Angels and the later Master File series seem to favor a larger size closer to 24.  (Sky Angels suggests there were approximately 62 squadrons active in the days before the end of the First Space War, accounting for approximately 1500 aircraft... which breaks down to a bit over 24 aircraft per squadron.)

 

 

What he's citing is the Operation Stargazer taskforce.

(Note the "aboard Stargazer, 2046 February".)

IIRC, the only time we've seen the Northampton-class deploying fighters in normal operations was Macross 7 PLUS "Spiritia Dreaming", and they're shown deploying no more than a platoon (of VF-14s) in a completely different manner (via a ventral hatch instead of through the missile launchers.

(I'm not counting the Gefion, the Northampton-class light carrier variant from Macross 30 which had an arbitrarily large hangar as a game mechanic.)

Ah, okay. I thought he was stating the normal capacity of the Northampton class. And thanks for the info on the squadron composition; I need to let my DM know, as his squadrons in the RPG were based on 12.

Edited July 4 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Ah, okay. I thought he was stating the normal capacity of the Northampton class. And thanks for the info on the squadron composition; I need to let my DM know, as his squadrons in the RPG were based on 12.

It's a common assumption to make. The US Navy tends to target around 12 planes, but they do everything in pairs. The UN forces in Macross do things in threes and fours instead.

[pengbuzz]

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's a common assumption to make. The US Navy tends to target around 12 planes, but they do everything in pairs. The UN forces in Macross do things in threes and fours instead.

Interesting; then again, Macross is known for triangles. Even their mecha have three modes.

Edited July 4 by pengbuzz

[cheemingwan1234]

So, was General Galaxy aware of the YF-23 Black Widow's data though merging with Northrop Grumman ? Explains why the YF-21/VF-22 look like the YF-23

 

Edited July 4 by cheemingwan1234

[azrael]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So, was General Galaxy aware of the YF-23 Black Widow's data though merging with Northrop Grumman ? Explains why the YF-21/VF-22 look like the YF-23

Do not mistake real-life inspiration for in-universe design choices. There is no such thing as the YF-23 Black Widow in the Macross-universe.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So, was General Galaxy aware of the YF-23 Black Widow's data though merging with Northrop Grumman ? Explains why the YF-21/VF-22 look like the YF-23

Probably not.

As far as we know, the only Variable Fighters in Macross that acknowledge an in-universe connection to their real world design inspirations are the VF-0 and VF-1.  They still aren't truly directly connected, though.  The in-universe resemblance Stonewell Bellcom's VF-0 and VF-1 bear to Grumman's F-14 is more a matter of convergent evolution than anything.  Stonewell Bellcom's design proposal E303 was developed around the Earth UN Forces requirements for a Variable Fighter rather than being based on the F-14, and the must have requirements the military imposed led to the design resembling a miniature F-14.  It helped that the military had put the F-14 back into service with minimal OTM-based upgrades as a stopgap during the Unification Wars, but only the unofficial development history in Master File draws a direct connection between the two (with the VF-0 development using that coincidental resemblance and a surplus of old F-14s as a starting point for physical testing).

It's very likely that any non-public development records of the YF-23 Black Widow II, along with all physical parts and prototypes, were lost in the orbital bombardment of Earth in 2010.  General Galaxy started their development of the YF-21 based on their earlier work restoring the Quimeliquola automated factory satellite and developing the improved-for-NUNS-use Queadluun-Rhea, so the YF-21's Fighter mode bearing a resemblance to the Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 Black Widow II is almost certainly more convergent evolution due to similar operational requirements and aiming for a Battroid that resembled the Queadluun-Rau/Rhea they were using as a starting point.

 

 

57 minutes ago, azrael said:

There is no such thing as the YF-23 Black Widow in the Macross-universe.

That was probably true originally, given that the earliest versions of the VF development history were penned in the early 1980s before the Advanced Tactical Fighter program had even refined its requirements to the point of submitting a Request for Proposals to the various manufacturers.  Sky Angels more or less treats the VF-1 Valkyrie program as being the de facto 5th Generation fighter jet and even got shockingly close to the flyaway cost of the actual 5th Generation fighter jets that wouldn't be revealed to the public for quite a few years afterwards.  

However, Macross did update its pre-1999 timeline (and even its post-1999 timeline) to account for real world events and technological advancements.  For instance, mentions of the Soviet Union in the timeline were replaced with Russia and West Germany with Germany.  Northrop and McDonnell Douglas rolled out the first YF-23A prototype in 1990 and it was tested against the YF-22 in a competition that eventually ended with the YF-22 being declared the winner in April 1991.  Because the development occurred in the early 90's it would be reasonably safe to say the YF-23 probably did exist in the Macross universe. 

With that in mind, it's also extremely likely that all or virtually all records of the YF-23 Black Widow II were lost to history in the Zentradi 118th Main Fleet's orbital bombardment of Earth in 2010.  The destruction was so complete that even then-current military developments were irrecoverably lost.  Official setting materials describe the VF-4's rival program, the VF-X-3, as having been lost this way with the only surviving evidence it ever existed being some photographs and a single part contracted out to a factory in space that wasn't destroyed in the war.  Macross the Ride suggests the only reason the SV-51 and "SV-52" weren't lost to history is because a few SV-51s survived the orbital bombardment due to having been abandoned in underground bunkers during/after the Unification Wars.   Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix suggests the VF-0 was another aircraft effectively lost to history until teams excavating the ruins of Edwards AFB years after the war found two battle-damaged VF-0A's from the CVN-99 Asuka II's carrier air wing in storage there and eventually turned them over to Shinsei Industry where they were painstakingly reverse-engineered as a lead developer's passion project.

(Essentially, the adjustment of the timeline for events after the original Macross series aired and their impact on the development history of VFs effectively just moved the VF-1 from being the setting's equivalent of a 5th Generation fighter to a 6th Generation one.)

[Big s]

On 7/3/2024 at 11:17 AM, pengbuzz said:

*imagines a bunch of VF's stuffed into a telephone booth, like what college kids used to do in the old days*

College kids today probably don’t even know what a “telephone booth” was. I haven’t seen one in at least 15 years if not more 

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 Macross the Ride suggests the only reason the SV-51 and "SV-52" weren't lost to history is because a few SV-51s survived the orbital bombardment due to having been abandoned preserved in underground bunkers during/after the Unification Wars.

Fixed.

 

Here's the text from the 3rd issue of Macross the ride:

Quote

 

Sv-52γ Oryol

The Sv-51 was the first ever combat-ready Variable Fighter, and was developed by the former Anti Unification forces. The Sv-52, equipped with thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, was developed by the Anti Unification forces for combat against the Zentrādi, and is a masterpiece that has disappeared into the shadows of history as a counterpart to the VF-1.

With its highly-manoeuvrable canards and special bird-like wings that can change their shape at will, the Sv-52 has both high-speed performance in Fighter and low-altitude manoeuvrability in GERWALK. However, compared to the VF-1, which was created around the same time, the Sv-52 is nearly twice as large, and together with its increased weight, it had a fatal weakness as a fighter aircraft.

Most of the Sv-52 were lost in the First Interstellar War, but a few were preserved in shelters in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, and other countries, and escaped the flames of war.

 

 

And there's a bit more on the Sv-52—specifically how many were produced—in the subsequent section on the Sv-51:

Quote

 

Sv-51γ

The final production number was 32 single-seaters and 6 two-seaters, for a total of 38 planes. In addition, there were two types: the mass-production α type for ordinary pilots, and the specially-tuned γ type for ace pilots. Additionally, 12 of the single-seater aircraft were later converted to the Sv-52, and appear to have continued to be used even after the end of the Unification War.

 

 

 

[cheemingwan1234]

So what's the purpose of the YF-19 moving the wings from backpack to legs. Was it to give the leg lasers a use in Battroid mode?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So what's the purpose of the YF-19 moving the wings from backpack to legs. Was it to give the leg lasers a use in Battroid mode?

I don't think there's a specific purpose to it, other than accommodating the transformation designed for the YF-19.

The leading edge of the wing root connects to the body at the same place the front of the intakes do, So having the wings attached to the hips just kind of worked out that way. To attach the wings to the backpack would have required someone usual stuff be done with the transformation to Battroid vecause of how the center torso is formed.

[Big s]

6 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So what's the purpose of the YF-19 moving the wings from backpack to legs. Was it to give the leg lasers a use in Battroid mode?

It was so the designer could say that it’s a different design from the VF-1.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So what's the purpose of the YF-19 moving the wings from backpack to legs. Was it to give the leg lasers a use in Battroid mode?

Y'know, thinking back on it, I think Macross 30 is the only time we've ever actually seen the YF/VF-19 use the wing root laser guns in Battroid mode.

[sketchley]

15 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So what's the purpose of the YF-19 moving the wings from backpack to legs. Was it to give the leg lasers a use in Battroid mode?

It may be helpful to consider the out-of-universe reasons for how the YF-19 ended up looking the way it does.  There are two main factors:

① Kawamori-san was designing the VF-11, YF-19, and YF-21 at the same time, to appear in the same shows (Macross 7, Macross Plus).

② Kawamori-san's way of doing things is to make his designs visually distinct from each other—at the silhouette stage.  He chose the Quadoran-Rō's silhouette for the Battroid form of the "enemy" YF-21.  The VF-11's Battroid has a traditional VF-1-style silhouette.  Therefore, the YF-19's Battroid had to be something that was different from both of them.  Moving the wings to the legs was a great way to do that.

 

Diving deeper into this rabbit hole, one could say that the large blocky things coming off of the hips is the common design element in the AVF fighters, and Kawamori-san could have been using that as a visual cue to help the viewer differentiate between 'normal' VFs (like the VF-11) and the AVF.

Edited July 6 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

42 minutes ago, sketchley said:

It may be helpful to consider the out-of-universe reasons for how the YF-19 ended up looking the way it does.  There are two main factors:

For anyone interested, there's some relevant commentary on Kawamori's design process WRT the Macross Plus Valkyries and esp. the VF-11 and YF-19 in Macross Shoji Kawamori Designer's Note starting on pg284.

The YF-19 initial/early design actually had a VF-11-like transformation and the wings stored on the back instead of on the hips (see pg294).  

By the "preparatory draft" iteration dated August '93, the wings had moved to the hips (see pg297) but it still had a relatively conventional VF-11-like transformation and appearance.

Kawamori's commentary on page 359 suggests the transformation was redesigned twice to achieve the desired appearance.

[cheemingwan1234]

Would a production ready YF-21 resemble a VF-22? Considering that they would have to scale back the BDI and BCS for the VF-22 since the BDI/BCS had a few hiccups as the primary control system.

[pengbuzz]

7 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Would a production ready YF-21 resemble a VF-22? Considering that they would have to scale back the BDI and BCS for the VF-22 since the BDI/BCS had a few hiccups as the primary control system.

See for yourself:

YF-21:

https://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21.htm

VF-22 Sturmvogel:

https://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-22s.htm

Aside from a few cosmetic differences and coloration, they look nearly identical. Main info on changes here (courtesy of Mr. March @ Macross Mecha Manual):

Quote

The VF-22 Sturmvogel II retained many of the advanced technologies in the YF-21 prototype fighter. The brainwave control system BDI (Brain Direct Image), the main improvement from the YF-21, was significantly simplified and worked in conjunction with a primary manual operating system within a corresponding cockpit. Simplification of the BDI system reduced the enormous cost of the unit and the weight of the equipment. The cockpit is also redesigned with an overhead spherical canopy offering superior visibility in Fighter and GERWALK configurations. In Battroid mode the forward interior canopy is built with a large partial sphere monitor providing a 180 degree view forward. All three laser cannons on the YF-21 prototype were replaced with converging energy beam guns for the VF-22 but the production model retains the four dorsal missile launchers (in addition to 4 ventral ports) and large missile ordnance stowed in three internal pallets. As a further refinement the VF-22 features two sensor units (one mounted to the rear) in a newly configured head unit as opposed to the five sensors found on the old YF-21. The VF-22 is also armed with two gatling gun pods with retractable stealth covers and includes a pin-point barrier defensive system.

 

 

 

[cheemingwan1234]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

See for yourself:

YF-21:

https://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21.htm

VF-22 Sturmvogel:

https://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-22s.htm

Aside from a few cosmetic differences and coloration, they look nearly identical. Main info on changes here (courtesy of Mr. March @ Macross Mecha Manual):

 

 

 

Given that you mentioned about it, what could be the changes done onto a theoratical VF-21F ro make it easier to control and produce? Since that was the goal of the VF-19F

Edited July 6 by cheemingwan1234