Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

I'm a bit surprised the Windermereans didn't just have Epsilon build some dimensional warheads for them. Not like Space Nazis are strangers to hypocrisy. 

Being holier-than-thou arseholes whose entire reason for invading the rest of the Brisingr cluster was that the New UN Gov't had dropped one on their planet, they probably would've considered actually using a dimensional warhead themselves to be quite an evil deed for a group who saw their activity as almost literal white knight-ing for the allegedly oppressed races of the Brisingr globular cluster.

 

33 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

In any case, that fold quartz is probably going to go towards fold weaponry of some kind used by the next TV anime's antagonists. You and/or other people in the know via Japanese books say that the Anti-UN remnants/General Galaxy/Epsilon have been a looming threat on the galactic stage, as I recall. 

Given how shady the Epsilon Foundation has proven to be, and that they have ties to General Galaxy and potentially the Macross Galaxy fleet considering they were able to furnish Ivan Tsari with a VF-27 and cybernetic body, I suspect that if Epsilon was paid with fold quartz from Windermere IV's mines for their technical support of the Kingdom of the Wind's offensive, that they'll have resold the fold quartz to other corporations under the table.  It's like conflict diamonds, only worse.

[Valkyrie Driver]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  It's like conflict diamonds, only worse.

Except if the Diamonds were also plutonium... 

Not only is it a pretty and rare gemstone, but it's also a super efficient and rare fuel source, that is also the core of WMD's...

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Not only is it a pretty and rare gemstone, but it's also a super efficient and rare fuel source, that is also the core of WMD's...

Not a fuel source, but a fuel catalyst.

When used in a fold reactor, the fold carbon or fold quartz is part of the Gravity Inertia Controller in the reactor core.  It produces the heavy quanta that the GIC system uses to catalyze thermonuclear fusion in the reactor's fuel and to contain the resulting plasma.

[Valkyrie Driver]

10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not a fuel source, but a fuel catalyst.

When used in a fold reactor, the fold carbon or fold quartz is part of the Gravity Inertia Controller in the reactor core.  It produces the heavy quanta that the GIC system uses to catalyze thermonuclear fusion in the reactor's fuel and to contain the resulting plasma.

Yeah, I know, I had to massage my words a bit, so that the "Diamond but also plutonium" analogy would work... 

[SMS007]

Am I correct in presuming that fold quartz is not really silicon dioxide, with the name merely coming about because of visual resemblance?

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Am I correct in presuming that fold quartz is not really silicon dioxide, with the name merely coming about because of visual resemblance?

What don't know exactly what it's made of, just that when it's energized it catalyzes the creation of heavy quantum... and that the raw form of the stuff is apparently a byproduct of supernovas.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Here's a bit of an odd question, when the advance packs were created for the VF-19EF/A, why didn't it get the upper chest missile packs like so many other frontier era fighters?

[Seto Kaiba]

51 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Here's a bit of an odd question, when the advance packs were created for the VF-19EF/A, why didn't it get the upper chest missile packs like so many other frontier era fighters?

Dunno~!  Macross Chronicle is the only source I know of that talks in-depth about the VF-19EF/A, but it doesn't say anything about why it only adopted the NP-FAD-23 wing boosters from the VF-25's SPS-25S/MF25 Super Pack.

If I had to guess, my guess would be that the NP-FAD-23 was the only part of the SPS-25S/MF25 that could be easily adapted for use on the VF-19EF/A that wasn't also redundant in the face of the existing VF-19 Super Pack parts like the NP-AB-20 (leg) and NP-FB-FA07 (shoulder) conformal tanks.  There'd be some significant remodeling involved to get the other parts of the SPS-25S/MF25 to fit the differently-shaped limbs, body, and shield of the VF-19.

[SMS007]

How many variable fighters besides VF-1, VF-5000, VF-17, Sv-154, and Sv-262 have direct real-world inspirations?

Edited December 4, 2017 by SMS007

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, SMS007 said:

How many variable fighters besides VF-1, VF-5000, VF-17, Sv-154, and Sv-262 have direct real-world inspirations?

Hm... the ones I know that've been explicitly stated in one publication or another:

• Sv-51 = Su-27
• VF-0 = F-14D Tomcat
• VF-1 Valkyrie = F-14A Tomcat
• VF-3000 Crusader = F-14A Tomcat
• VF-4 Lightning III = XB-70 Valkyrie / SR-71 Blackbird
• VF-5 = F2Y Sea Dart
• VF-X-7 Ghost Valkyrie = Martin Marietta X-24B
• V-BR-2 = SR-71 Blackbird
• VF-5000 = F-16C/D Fighting Falcon
• VA-X-3 = None acknowledged¹
• VAB-2 = None acknowledged¹
• VA-3 Invader = A-6 Intruder
• VF-9 Cutlass = Grumman X-29
• VF-X-10 = Grumman X-29
• VF-11 Thunderbolt III = Su-27K/Su-33 Flanker-D
• VF-11MAXL = F-16XL Fighting Falcon
• VF-14 Vampire = SR-71 Blackbird 
• VF-17 Nightmare = F-117A Nighthawk
• Y/VF-19 Excalibur = Su-27 Flanker/X-29
• YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II = YF-23 Black Widow II
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus = F-117A Nighthawk
• YF-24 Evolution = F-22A Raptor
• VF-25 Messiah = F-14D Tomcat/Su-27 Flanker
• VF-27 Lucifer = F-14D Tomcat/Su-27 Flanker/SR-71 Blackbird
• YF-29 Durandal = None acknowledged²
• YF-30 Chronos = None acknowledged³
• VF-31 Kairos/Siegfried = None acknowledged⁴
• Sv-154 Svard = F-104 Starfighter
• Sv-262 Draken III = Saab J 35 Draken

One could be forgiven for getting the impression Kawamori-sensei has a very great enthusiasm for the Su-27 Flanker's many variations and the F-14 Tomcat.

 

1. None stated, but almost certainly the B-2 Spirit bomber.
2. It's widely hinted-at, but not explicitly confirmed, that the YF-29 Durandal is a modified reuse of the SW-XA II Schneegans from Kawamori's VF-Experiment column in Character Model magazine, which would make the YF-29 indirectly inspired by the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut (NATO: Firkin).
3. Explicitly derived in-universe from the YF-24 Evolution, suggesting it's probably another F-22A Raptor-inspired design.
4. Directly derivative of the YF-30 Chronos, making it arguably indirectly derivative of the F-22A.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

• YF-30 Chronos = None acknowledged³
• VF-31 Kairos/Siegfried = None acknowledged⁴

One could be forgiven for getting the impression Kawamori-sensei has a very great enthusiasm for the Su-27 Flanker's many variations and the F-14 Tomcat.

3. Explicitly derived in-universe from the YF-24 Evolution, suggesting it's probably another F-22A Raptor-inspired design.
4. Directly derivative of the YF-30 Chronos, making it arguably indirectly derivative of the F-22A.

Those two are inspired by the Su-57 (PAK FA).  It's most noticeable in the between-engine-nacelle weapons container.

[ManhattanProject972]

7 hours ago, sketchley said:

Those two are inspired by the Su-57 (PAK FA).  It's most noticeable in the between-engine-nacelle weapons container.

Maybe even a J-20, their layout is very similar especially the Kairos.

[sketchley]

4 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Maybe even a J-20, their layout is very similar especially the Kairos.

Good point.

Perhaps it's a PAK FA weapon pallet inserted into a J-20 that's been split down the middle? 

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, sketchley said:

Those two are inspired by the Su-57 (PAK FA).  It's most noticeable in the between-engine-nacelle weapons container.

Very likely, yes... but has it explicitly come up in any interview or other publication?

That's kind of what I was going for with that list.  The inspirations that've been explicitly identified in various books, magazines, etc.

[ManhattanProject972]

Have they specified the VF-31's rate of fire for its beam gunpod?

From what I recall from Delta it was more of a PEW--PEW! than a Brrrrrt! or PewPewPew!

[Valkyrie Driver]

Well, recently valkyries and their pilots tend not to spec pew pew as much as they used to. 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Have they specified the VF-31's rate of fire for its beam gunpod?

From what I recall from Delta it was more of a PEW--PEW! than a Brrrrrt! or PewPewPew!

Nope.  Macross Delta is incredibly stingy with technical detail... probably because the mecha are out-of-focus in the series.  

I'd guess around 120-180rpm based on the animation.

[SMS007]

Fighter models like the 11, 19, 25, and 31 utilize Super Packs in space as a general rule. But the 17, 22, and 27 don't; as I recall at least the 17 is a space superiority fighter. Do the latter models have any inherent disadvantage to atmospheric flight then? As they don't shed weight in general for atmospheric flight. 

[Seto Kaiba]

34 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Fighter models like the 11, 19, 25, and 31 utilize Super Packs in space as a general rule. But the 17, 22, and 27 don't; as I recall at least the 17 is a space superiority fighter. Do the latter models have any inherent disadvantage to atmospheric flight then? As they don't shed weight in general for atmospheric flight. 

Truth be told, the VF-19 Excalibur probably doesn't belong on that list.  Two of its three animated appearances with Super Packs equipped were in atmospheric operations (Macross Plus and Macross 7's 44th episode), and for almost the entirety of Macross 7 it was operating in space without any bolt-on hardware at all.  Improvements in engine technology that were adopted in the 4th Generation VFs¹ that increased fuel efficiency, combined with larger airframes having more room for internal fuel storage, reduced the need for FAST packs during normal space operations.  Essentially, the design focus of FAST packs transitioned from maximizing operating time in space while adding some extra weaponry to maximizing armament while adding extra verniers and boosters to prevent the additional mass from degrading the fighter's performance.  When that extra weaponry isn't needed, they operate without the packs, as the VF-17s and VF-19s in Macross 7, and the VF-171s in Macross Frontier did.  (When it comes to the VF-25s in Frontier, let's just say when you're fighting an enemy at least as well equipped and rather more numerous than your own forces, there's no harm in bringing along enough missiles for a three-ring Itano Circus.)  The VF-11s are earlier (3rd Gen) models that predate the adoption of the more efficient engine technology, so like the VF-1 they're actually dependent on conformal tanks and booster rockets as a way of extending their operating time to a practical level for deep space operations.

 

Getting down to the actual question you asked after that long and tedious digression on my part (sorry!), the VF-17 is the only one of the three that's noted as having any kind of a deficiency in atmospheric performance.  Its passively stealthy design and space-centric operating profile meant that some concessions were made in its aerodynamic profile.  Those issues were later corrected in the simplified all-regime rebuild designated VF-171.  The VF-22 is an all-regime fighter, and its unique transformation leaves a lot of empty space that can be used for internally-carried ordnance and fuel.  It's hard to classify the VF-27 since it bears some hallmarks of an all-regime fighter and some of a space-optimized fighter, but with the amount of thrust it's throwing around it's less more a "I have enough thrust to go wherever I darn well please" fighter.

[SMS007]

Aha, I see.

[JB0]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's hard to classify the VF-27 since it bears some hallmarks of an all-regime fighter and some of a space-optimized fighter, but with the amount of thrust it's throwing around it's less more a "I have enough thrust to go wherever I darn well please" fighter.

Which kinda gets to the heart of the "FAST packs in atmosphere" problem, doesn't it?  When you have enough thrust, anything can fly. And with enough maneuvering thrusters, anything can steer(wings are for chumps). It just... might not be the smoothest ride ever.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

Which kinda gets to the heart of the "FAST packs in atmosphere" problem, doesn't it?  When you have enough thrust, anything can fly. And with enough maneuvering thrusters, anything can steer(wings are for chumps). It just... might not be the smoothest ride ever.

Pilots, as a rule, like being able to steer and the worse your drag problem the rougher your ride is going to be... though the unfortunate implications for fuel economy are less of an issue for a VF's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines than they would be for something running with traditional combustion engines.  (Really bad laminar flow separation can cut fuel efficiency 30%, decrease its stalling angle of attack, and make handling more difficult.)

[Mommar]

I know there's little info but it worth notingntje 31's were always shown in space with packs and tjeybalways jettisoned them when enetering atmosphere.  Also, weren't the VF-19's from the F onward optimized for space flight and the packs were technically atmospheric packs?

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Mommar said:

I know there's little info but it worth notingntje 31's were always shown in space with packs and tjeybalways jettisoned them when enetering atmosphere.

Yeah, the Siegfried version is less well-armed than the standard VF-31A Kairos, so every little bit helps.

 

6 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Also, weren't the VF-19's from the F onward optimized for space flight and the packs were technically atmospheric packs?

Most were, but even the ones that weren't aren't depicted as using FAST packs on a regular basis on space (e.g. the VF-19EF Caliburn).

[Mommar]

Did the Caliburn even have fast packs?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Mommar said:

Did the Caliburn even have fast packs?

None that appeared in Macross R, but as a relatively standard local derivative of the VF-19E it should've had some.

[Seto Kaiba]

Since it's appropriate here as well, probably more here than there, here's a post I recently did for the Newbie thread concerning a few aerodynamic helpers that VFs have.

Every VF, save a few that went in for canards instead, uses boundary layer control.  From the VF-19 and VF-22 onward, VFC is also used.

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Boundary Layer Control System (BLCS) is a collection of air pumps situated in the main and sub-intakes and inside the control surfaces which collectively work to manipulate the laminar airflow over the airframe.  Two different real world methods are used.  The first, boundary layer suction, is used via air pumps in the main intake and a dedicated sub-intake above the main intake, to extract the boundary layer (the air closest to the surface) and thus prevent it from breaking away from the surface and forming drag-increasing low pressure zones in the aircraft's wake (flow separation).  It also employs what are called "blown" control surfaces, which use air drawn from the turbines and blown out a series of vents in the trailing edge of the wing to shape the airflow downwards, which increases the lift coefficient by delaying boundary layer flow separation.  This manipulation of the boundary layer results in reduced drag that increases fuel efficiency, and also offers improved lift, low-speed performance, and increases the stalling angle of attack, making the aircraft more agile and even offering limited maneuverability without control surfaces if applied asymmetrically.

The Vortex Flow Controller (VFC) is a more recent addition to VFs that injects trace amounts of neutral gas into the boundary layer to asymmetrically change the pressure gradient on the aircraft skin.  The gas causes a vortex to form or an existing vortex to change position, shifting the airflow pressure on the aircraft enough to actually change the direction of flight.  Essentially, an attitude control system that uses the air moving over the airframe as a control surface.

(And yes, boundary layer suction, blown control surfaces, and vortex flow controllers are all real-world technologies.)

For more fun with boundary layers, you may find it enjoyable to watch the Mythbusters episodes for the Tailgate up or down? myth and the Blue Ice myth.

[SMS007]

Do the VF-27 and YF-29 have better battroid mode maneuverability (assuming no attachments) than other fighter models given their four nacelles? Or not really?

Heh. Oddly enough I came up with this question from rewatching the climax of Sayonara no Tsubasa—which is the only time Brera's VF-27 has a Super Pack on. Oh well, you can't win everything.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Do the VF-27 and YF-29 have better battroid mode maneuverability (assuming no attachments) than other fighter models given their four nacelles? Or not really?

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheet(s) for Alto's YF-29 Durandal do suggest that to be the case... an increase in performance vs. its production-level contemporaries is specifically noted under its Fighter and Battroid sections.

 

14 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Heh. Oddly enough I came up with this question from rewatching the climax of Sayonara no Tsubasa—which is the only time Brera's VF-27 has a Super Pack on. Oh well, you can't win everything.

Outside of possible confrontations in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, that's probably the only time the VF-27 ever squared off against the fighter whose specs Macross Galaxy illegally obtained via L.A.I. to complete it.

[SMS007]

Hey Seto Kaiba, is this Macross the Ride page your source of information on Macross Frontier's New U.N. Spacy garrison having the VF-19 in 2058?

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Hey Seto Kaiba, is this Macross the Ride page your source of information on Macross Frontier's New U.N. Spacy garrison having the VF-19 in 2058?

Well, yes and no...

My primary source is the two volumes of the Macross the Ride light novel itself.  Particularly its first chapter "Deep Space Warbird", which features the VF-19EF Caliburn in service with Frontier's NUNS and SMS Frontier's Apollo Platoon.

That page is from the companion reference materials that were published alongside the light novel when it was being serialized in Dengeki Hobby magazine, which were later reprinted as standalone artbooks under the title Macross the Ride Visual Book.  Two volumes printed, one covering the first six chapters of the light novel, the second covering the last six chapters of the light novel with that bonus short manga epilogue.  The relevant material is in Vol.1, from which that page comes, but is principally on the seven or so pages immediately preceding the one you posted (especially on page 11).

[SMS007]

Is the VF-19EF the same or a different sub-model from Isamu's VF-19 in Sayonara no Tsubasa?

Edited December 18, 2017 by SMS007

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Is the VF-19EF the same or a different sub-model from Isamu's VF-19 in Sayonara no Tsubasa?

According to Macross Chronicle, the VF-19EF Caliburn is the base model on which the VF-19 Isamu Special¹ was built.

Specifically, the Mechanic Sheet for the fighter² describes it as a VF-19EF remodeled into a YF-19, though the designation argues that it's more like a VF-19EF remodeled to mimic the aerodynamics and equipment of the initial block VF-19A Excalibur (essentially identical to YF-19-3).

Given that the VF-19EF Caliburn was a local spec including hardware uniquely developed for it in the Macross Frontier fleet, one has to wonder if Jan Neumann and co. had to get the fleet's permission before using the VF-19EF as a starting point for Isamu's custom VF-19.

 

1. Depending on whether you put your trust in the movie's Official Complete Book, the Macross Frontier movie novelization, or its mechanic sheet in Macross Chronicle's 2nd Edition, this fighter is either the VF-19 SMS Ver., VF-19ADVANCE Excalibur ADVANCE, or VF-19EF/A Isamu Special.  The Macross Chronicle explanation arguably incorporates all three, since the VF-19EF was the version of the VF-19 SMS used, VF-19ADVANCE is given as the project name internal to Shinsei, and VF-19EF/A as the final designation.

2. Macross Chronicle (2E) Macross Frontier Movie Mechanic Sheet SMS 03A "VF-19EF/A Isamu Special/VF-25A Messiah".

[dizman]

Just have a VF-22 question I was curious on. Is there any info on weapons that could be equipped if the legs were removed and turned into a big munitions bay? I think that is what happened in Delta with the dimension bomb but already can't remember.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, dizman said:

Just have a VF-22 question I was curious on. Is there any info on weapons that could be equipped if the legs were removed and turned into a big munitions bay?

Probably not much more than it could already carry with the legs present.  That bay is not very large, and at best can hold two RMS-5 thermonuclear reaction missiles.

 

Quote

I think that is what happened in Delta with the dimension bomb but already can't remember.

Sort of... the legs were removed from Maj. Immelmann's VF-22, but only after it'd crashed, been restored, and placed on permanent display in Darwent Castle as a reminder of the events of Carlyle's Black Storm.  When it was deployed to drop the bomb in the first place, the legs were still fitted.

The one camera angle provided in Windermere IV's recording of the incident doesn't show us the underside of Maj. Immelmann's VF-22, so it's hard to say if the dimensional warhead was dropped from the internal ordnance bays or if it was slung under the VF on a pylon or conformal mount.  It doesn't seem to be a very large missile, so I'd assume it was probably internally carried.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Seto Kaiba
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