Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, Bolt said:

Wow, you really hit that one quick! I'm sorry, I should have referenced the VFMF VF-1 Squadrons book. 

Once I noticed you were talking about a VF-1 with four booster packs, the field narrowed REAL quick... since that's about the only book that has that.

 

13 hours ago, Bolt said:

Ok cool. That's pretty much what I figured, but now have the context for said configurations . Thanks!

... wow, I just noticed the speech-to-text that I used to write that while folding laundry did a rubbish job with context-sensitivity.  "Their in" instead of "therein".  Good grief.  

That particular volume has a fair amount to say about postwar attempts to make the VF-1 a somewhat more efficient/effective space fighter.  They're almost all brute force solutions like eliminating the transformation system to make room for more and larger fuel tanks or just strapping a ton of extra boosters and fuel tanks to the outside.  Going back as far as Perfect Memory's "The Lost Two Years" piece about the timeskip in the original series, Apollo Base on the Moon was more or less THE headquarters for the New UN Forces out in near-Earth space and where many of the space-based VF patrols were launching from.  It seems that Master File's writers decided to run with that when designing the 1.1 version of the FAST Pack.

 

13 hours ago, Bolt said:

They appear to be a good solution. Does the V-4 really perform better, or longer than these VF-1  Fast Pack versions?

Than those unofficial versions?  Hard to say.

The VF-4 was, in general, a much better space fighter than the VF-1 Valkyrie.  Its design allowed for a lot more fuel to be carried internally and that meant not just greater range and operating time in space but an effective weight reduction vs. the Super Pack since they weren't adding mass for large external tanks and verniers.  Macross Chronicle claims it was a 40% more effective space fighter than the VF-1.  

Edited March 5, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... wow, I just noticed the speech-to-text that I used to write that while folding laundry did a rubbish job with context-sensitivity.  "Their in" instead of "therein".  Good grief.  

It's not an exact science. Or maybe it's too exact..

I was referring to the context of space operations that would necessitate greater need for fuel and thrusters.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Going back as far as Perfect Memory's "The Lost Two Years" piece about the timeskip in the original series, Apollo Base on the Moon was more or less THE headquarters for the New UN Forces out in near-Earth space and where many of the space-based VF patrols were launching from.

Though it's not official, is it possible this is where the VF-1 "Mnmay Guard" schemes emerged? As seen in Model Graphix and printed by Hasegawa. I'm assuming these were Minmay concert tribute schemes. The "Ashes to Ashes" , Full Moon party in Clavius(?) live act tour. That scheme has a very cute Minmay moon reference. Another is the "One Night In Paris" The VIVERATOR tour 2013 Lynn Minmay Live act 138 BPM Opening act  DJ: Mauro Picotto . So I'm assuming that was planetside. The 3rd scheme, in this series , doesn't offer much clues. Just large decal letters"TB" , bright pink vipers in profile, and the squadron symbol bearing SSVF-336 "Black Clouds" . I've seen only a hand full of these schemes on actual models , none with the "Black Clouds" scheme. And I've always assumed these events took place before Lynn Minmei departed on the Megaroad-01. That seems obvious, but I haven't found much information anywhere, regarding these events. Just a thought..🤓

[Seto Kaiba]

36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

It's not an exact science. Or maybe it's too exact..

Someone once told me that autocorrect and speech-to-text are very much like having a gnome or leprechaun in your phone that very much wants to help, but is also very drunk.

 

36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I was referring to the context of space operations that would necessitate greater need for fuel and thrusters.

Sometimes, less is more.

In the VF-4's case, less mass but the same amount of fuel and rocket thrust means more endurance.

 

36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Though it's not official, is it possible this is where the VF-1 "Mnmay Guard" schemes emerged? As seen in Model Graphix and printed by Hasegawa. I'm assuming these were Minmay concert tribute schemes. The "Ashes to Ashes" , Full Moon party in Clavius(?) live act tour. That scheme has a very cute Minmay moon reference. Another is the "One Night In Paris" The VIVERATOR tour 2013 Lynn Minmay Live act 138 BPM Opening act  DJ: Mauro Picotto . So I'm assuming that was planetside. The 3rd scheme, in this series , doesn't offer much clues. Just large decal letters"TB" , bright pink vipers in profile, and the squadron symbol bearing SSVF-336 "Black Clouds" . I've seen only a hand full of these schemes on actual models , none with the "Black Clouds" scheme. And I've always assumed these events took place before Lynn Minmei departed on the Megaroad-01. That seems obvious, but I haven't found much information anywhere, regarding these events. Just a thought..🤓

Hmm... hard to say.

Not just for lack of official information, but just in general terms.

Apollo Base and the adjoining lunar colony city are in the Sea of Tranquility near to, and named for, the Apollo 11 landing site.  While it's not as immediately evident, Clavius is also a location on the moon.  It's a crater near the lunar south pole (south of Tycho).  Presumably, at least based on the kit, there is a colony or military base in Clavius (possibly both, if the Apollo Base situation is the norm) in which Minmay held a concert at some point between the end of the First Space War in 2010 and her departure from Earth in 2012.

The few times that such paint schemes have shown up in official or semi-official material, they've been presented as some sort of special promotional concession to a visiting idol by the local government.  It may have started that far back, or it may be a more recent development.  We can't say for sure.  The few examples we have in those materials are from a lot later in the timeline like the Ranka Lee Visit commemorative paint scheme adopted by the NUNS Sagares Defense Force SVF-1429 Prismatics when she visited the planet on tour, or the SMS platoon Sheryl Nome contracted as bodyguards while visiting Macross Olympia who adopted a special paintjob, new MODEX numbers, and a new identifier as the Queen's Knights for the duration of her visit there.

[Bolt]

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Someone once told me that autocorrect and speech-to-text are very much like having a gnome or leprechaun in your phone that very much wants to help, but is also very drunk.

Lol. That is an apt description. Now i can blame those 2am texts on the drunk leprechaun in my phone  

 

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sometimes, less is more.

In the VF-4's case, less mass but the same amount of fuel and rocket thrust means more endurance.

  Fair enough. 

[Bolt]

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hmm... hard to say.

Not just for lack of official information, but just in general terms.

Apollo Base and the adjoining lunar colony city are in the Sea of Tranquility near to, and named for, the Apollo 11 landing site.  While it's not as immediately evident, Clavius is also a location on the moon.  It's a crater near the lunar south pole (south of Tycho).  Presumably, at least based on the kit, there is a colony or military base in Clavius (possibly both, if the Apollo Base situation is the norm) in which Minmay held a concert at some point between the end of the First Space War in 2010 and her departure from Earth in 2012.

That reasonably makes sense. Wait a minute, what about the "One night in Paris " dated 2013.?! It's printed on the decal ! That makes me think there must be a district called "Paris" on the Megaroad 0-1. Or a club, perhaps. Though i it all with a grain of salt, I do really enjoy the more obscure events and stories that make up the expanded Macross universe.

 

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The few times that such paint schemes have shown up in official or semi-official material, they've been presented as some sort of special promotional concession to a visiting idol by the local government.  It may have started that far back, or it may be a more recent development.  We can't say for sure. 

I'm assuming it started that far back, but , as it's all unofficial in a "everything " is an in universe interpretation..🤷

 

46 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The few examples we have in those materials are from a lot later in the timeline like the Ranka Lee Visit commemorative paint scheme adopted by the NUNS Sagares Defense Force SVF-1429 Prismatics when she visited the planet on tour, or the SMS platoon Sheryl Nome contracted as bodyguards while visiting Macross Olympia who adopted a special paintjob, new MODEX numbers, and a new identifier as the Queen's Knights for the duration of her visit there.

That's the stuff i love.! I'm still planning on a VF-25 Queen's Knights. But I'm not sure how soon I'm getting to it yet, as I'm building my kits chronologically. And I'm still only on the Maiden Voyage of the Megaroad 0-1 era..

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

That reasonably makes sense. Wait a minute, what about the "One night in Paris " dated 2013.?! It's printed on the decal ! That makes me think there must be a district called "Paris" on the Megaroad 0-1. Or a club, perhaps. Though i it all with a grain of salt, I do really enjoy the more obscure events and stories that make up the expanded Macross universe.

That one, I'm not sure we can explain.

I'm not familiar with the specific model kit or decal sheet you're referring to, but as you noted Minmay left Earth in September 2012 aboard the SDF-2 Megaroad-01.  It wouldn't be possible for her to hold a 2013 concert in Paris because she wasn't on Earth in 2013 and Paris suffered a catastrophic existence failure about three years before that point.  Was that model kit or decal sheet released in 2013?  Or for some special event?  Master File only "adopted" a few of Hasegawa's unique kit designs as in-universe paintjobs, some are simply products meant for fan enjoyment not necessarily representative of an in-universe thing.

 

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

I'm assuming it started that far back, but , as it's all unofficial in a "everything " is an in universe interpretation..🤷

I'd assume so... especially if there were a fair number of Japanese personnel assigned to that suspected base in Clavius crater.

And that trend of doing gaudy redecos of secondhand Valkyries like we saw in Macross 7 had to come from SOMEWHERE.

 

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

That's the stuff i love.! I'm still planning on a VF-25 Queen's Knights. But I'm not sure how soon I'm getting to it yet, as I'm building my kits chronologically. And I'm still only on the Maiden Voyage of the Megaroad 0-1 era..

The Queen's Knights are a favorite of mine... not just because the paint scheme itself looks nice on the VF-25F, but because it's a subtle but very cute touch on Sheryl's part to ask for the MODEX numbers of the two VF-25Fs in her SMS bodyguard detail to match her and Alto's birthdays.  (727 and 1123).

I'd quite happily buy a matched set of Queens Knights VF-25Fs from Bandai Spirits to go with the rest of the Frontier stuff I've got.

[Bolt]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Was that model kit or decal sheet released in 2013?  Or for some special event?  Master File only "adopted" a few of Hasegawa's unique kit designs as in-universe paintjobs, some are simply products meant for fan enjoyment not necessarily representative of an in-universe thing.

The decals were released in 2003 by Hasegawa. And have been featured in Model Graphix Macross Archive. In fact, many of Hasegawa's "Macross Optional Delcal" sets have been featured in Model Graphix Macross Archive over the years. 

[pengbuzz]

22 hours ago, Bolt said:

The decals were released in 2003 by Hasegawa. And have been featured in Model Graphix Macross Archive. In fact, many of Hasegawa's "Macross Optional Delcal" sets have been featured in Model Graphix Macross Archive over the years. 

Someone posted these in the Decal Library we have here on MW:

 

Link:

 

[Bolt]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Someone posted these in the Decal Library we have here on MW:

 

Link:

 

Thanks. I've got waterslides of all those in 1/72 and 1/48. There's actually a 3rd print design too, I've yet to see on a model or toy.  I'm just trying to dredge up the (in universe) backstory to these variants. If there is one ( maybe in the corresponding Model graphix Macross Archive book?) I'm thinking there's either a Paris district or club on the Megaroad-01. More and more, just based off the " One Night In Paris 2013 " print. Granted, this is all unofficial, Hasegawa deculture.

[TG Remix]

If I can nerd out about my favorite group of jolly green giants yet again, it's always interesting to me whenever we see some insight of Zentradi amongst the UN. There's something about seeing giant Zentradi coexisting with miclones that always gets me giddy, whether it be the small snippers in SDF and 7, or the entire district from Frontier. Not to mention how there seemed to be a divide between the factions of the Zentran who willingly fought with Britai and those who reluctantly joined like the 33rd Marine Battalion. Many colonies either seemed either more human focused or mainly be mixed in races; so Macross 7's throwaway lore of Zentradi colonies apart of the UN always fascinated me. so I kinda wonder what kind of a "Zentradi culture" that could come up after the First Space (specifically in UN governed areas, otherwise we'd just have more Zentran rogues wanting to be completely warlike again, lol.)

 

I remember people scoffing at Veffidas' "Street Fighter" like backstory about wrestling all over the galaxy(?); turns out Zentradi wrestling was a concept all the way back in the 80's! 😆

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

If I can nerd out about my favorite group of jolly green giants yet again, it's always interesting to me whenever we see some insight of Zentradi amongst the UN. [...] Many colonies either seemed either more human focused or mainly be mixed in races; so Macross 7's throwaway lore of Zentradi colonies apart of the UN always fascinated me. so I kinda wonder what kind of a "Zentradi culture" that could come up after the First Space (specifically in UN governed areas, otherwise we'd just have more Zentran rogues wanting to be completely warlike again, lol.)

Zentradi and part-Zentradi are actually fairly common in postwar society... it's just that, as in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, many Zentradi and part-Zentradi miclones are all but indistinguishable from Humans even up close.  It's even harder to pick them out of a crowd by the time of Plus and beyond since many of them are "peace children" who'd been born and raised after the First Space War, and have few or none of the culture-otaku tells that the First Space War veterans so often display.  There's often little to no way to tell that someone's part-Zentradi without being told, or them having a conspicuously Zentradi surname like Elmo Kridanik.

The First Space War-era veterans... well... they often give the game away with their unapologetic Earth culture-otaku behavior and tendency to do things like take Human names.

[pengbuzz]

10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Zentradi and part-Zentradi are actually fairly common in postwar society... it's just that, as in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, many Zentradi and part-Zentradi miclones are all but indistinguishable from Humans even up close.  It's even harder to pick them out of a crowd by the time of Plus and beyond since many of them are "peace children" who'd been born and raised after the First Space War, and have few or none of the culture-otaku tells that the First Space War veterans so often display.  There's often little to no way to tell that someone's part-Zentradi without being told, or them having a conspicuously Zentradi surname like Elmo Kridanik.

The First Space War-era veterans... well... they often give the game away with their unapologetic Earth culture-otaku behavior and tendency to do things like take Human names.

And on occasion: odd hair color (although nowadays IRL, that would mean much of the under-25 crowd are Zentraedi ).

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

And on occasion: odd hair color (although nowadays IRL, that would mean much of the under-25 crowd are Zentraedi ).

They don't even stand out in that regard, considering the number of Humans in Macross with unusual hair colors like blue, purple, and pink.  

How much of that is simply anime doing what anime does and how much is people taking medication to change their hair color as Sheryl is indicated to do in Macross Frontier is not clear, but it seems skewed heavily towards the former since nobody seems to find the amazing technicolor hairstyles on display unusual or noteworthy.  I can't quite see someone so straight-laced as Gamlin Kizaki dying his hair that interesting shade of lavender for aesthetics.  Max had it in the original series, but for the sake of a terrible pun.

[TG Remix]

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Zentradi and part-Zentradi are actually fairly common in postwar society... it's just that, as in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, many Zentradi and part-Zentradi miclones are all but indistinguishable from Humans even up close.  It's even harder to pick them out of a crowd by the time of Plus and beyond since many of them are "peace children" who'd been born and raised after the First Space War, and have few or none of the culture-otaku tells that the First Space War veterans so often display.  There's often little to no way to tell that someone's part-Zentradi without being told, or them having a conspicuously Zentradi surname like Elmo Kridanik.

That is true, though 7's obviously Zentradi characters (Veffidas, Macross 5 fleet, the rioters when Sivil entered City 7,etc.) usually shared a duller green and/or blue skin color, though that might be the DYRL influence. Frontier's a 50/50, sometimes they more or less look like regular humans, other times they have hair they can have emotionally displaying hair or even have orc tusks. At least there I can tell they had a lot of fun. 😁

 

28 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

And on occasion: odd hair color (although nowadays IRL, that would mean much of the under-25 crowd are Zentraedi ).

That's just anime being anime at that point. 😝 There's also human characters with technocolor hair as well.

 

To continue my train of thought, maybe Zentradi-only colonies started from a domino effect when Earth banned giant sized ones in 2030. Does make me wonder if Exsedol was a miclone or giant prior to the Macross 7 leaving to earth; he sure adjusted to the latter much more after the first series if anything.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

That is true, though 7's obviously Zentradi characters (Veffidas, Macross 5 fleet, the rioters when Sivil entered City 7,etc.) usually shared a duller green and/or blue skin color, though that might be the DYRL influence. Frontier's a 50/50, sometimes they more or less look like regular humans, other times they have hair they can have emotionally displaying hair or even have orc tusks. At least there I can tell they had a lot of fun. 😁

It is, at least, acknowledged from a relatively early point in the franchise that the Zentradi's nature as a designer species based on the ancient Protoculture's own DNA resulted in some of them possessing unusual genetic traits as a legacy of the biotechnology engineered into them.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

To continue my train of thought, maybe Zentradi-only colonies started from a domino effect when Earth banned giant sized ones in 2030. Does make me wonder if Exsedol was a miclone or giant prior to the Macross 7 leaving to earth; he sure adjusted to the latter much more after the first series if anything.

It strikes me as unlikely... because the reason that giant Zentradi are not often seen in emigrant fleets and the reason giant Zentradi were banned on Earth are different.

Giant Zentradi were banned on Earth because of the armed revolt in the late 2020s.  The scarcity of giant Zentradi in emigrant fleets is presented as more of a resource problem, with the giants consuming exponentially more resources and space than a miclone on ships were space and resources are at a premium.  Based on Sheryl's reaction, that the Frontier fleet emigrant ship Macross Frontier maintains a bioplant artificial ecosystem for resource recycling and has enough space and resources that it can spare enough of both for a permanent and luxurious giant Zentradi settlement is a highly conspicuous display of the Frontier fleet's incredible wealth.

[pengbuzz]

On 4/3/2023 at 10:43 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Based on Sheryl's reaction, that the Frontier fleet emigrant ship Macross Frontier maintains a bioplant artificial ecosystem for resource recycling and has enough space and resources that it can spare enough of both for a permanent and luxurious giant Zentradi settlement is a highly conspicuous display of the Frontier fleet's incredible wealth.

I can imagine other fleets being quite jealous of them in some ways.

[guyxxed]

Delta question:  I don't have access to the Master File for the VF-31, so I apologize if this is something obviously covered there, but is there any functional difference between the VF-31F, J, and C variants?  In Frontier, the 25S, F, G, and RVF all have specialized roles in a mixed arms group, and that's shown on screen in multiple examples, but I don't recall ever seeing any difference in the roles of Hayate, Messer, and Mirage in combat other than Messer's the only one allowed to scissor.  I assume the 31F is still meant to be the striker and analogous to Alto in the 25F, but what do the 31J and 31C bring to the game other than giving each main character an ace custom with a unique head?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Delta question:  I don't have access to the Master File for the VF-31, so I apologize if this is something obviously covered there, but is there any functional difference between the VF-31F, J, and C variants?  In Frontier, the 25S, F, G, and RVF all have specialized roles in a mixed arms group, and that's shown on screen in multiple examples, but I don't recall ever seeing any difference in the roles of Hayate, Messer, and Mirage in combat other than Messer's the only one allowed to scissor.  I assume the 31F is still meant to be the striker and analogous to Alto in the 25F, but what do the 31J and 31C bring to the game other than giving each main character an ace custom with a unique head?

Not really... all five of Xaos's "Siegfried" custom VF-31's have the same specs and equipment barring the different monitor turrets.

On paper, they allegedly have different operational roles but nothing in their specs or equipment actually bear out those differences except in Chuck's case.

• Arad's VF-31S is said to be (as expected) a Command machine tuned to the limits of its performance.
• Messer's VF-31F is said to be a space superiority model optimized for atmospheric combat... which is kind of paradoxical if you think about it.
• Chuck's VF-31E is set up as an ELINT/AWACS aircraft.
• Mirage's VF-31C is said to be a "tactical support fighter" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.  It's said that it has command unit capabilities too, though technically that's just software that could be installed anywhere.
• Hayate's VF-31J is said to be a "space superority support" model, with no real indication given as to what THAT means either.

In practice, all of them except Chuck's are used as dogfighters with no real sense of unit organization or different operational roles.

In the comparison to the VF-25's used by SMS in Macross Frontier, it's worth remembering that the VF-25's we see are all production-intent variants from the VF-25's trial production lot.  None of them have been customized.  The VF-31's used by Xaos, however... the VF-31A type is production-intent, and because it has the ordnance container system it's meant to be a "one variant fits all" approach to mission equipment.  The same single variant should sufice to fill any role by swapping out the modular container.  Xaos customized five of the VF-31A's they were given to make the Siegfried type, and in so doing gave them cosmetic differences... but in practice it's still a jack-of-all-trades unit.

[sketchley]

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I can imagine other fleets being quite jealous of them in some ways.

If memory serves, something to that effect was brought up in the "Macross the Musical" stage production.  Among other things, that show's Super Long Range Emigrant Fleet's setting was experiencing demonstrations (and riots?) because that fleet was essentially poor.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

If memory serves, something to that effect was brought up in the "Macross the Musical" stage production.  Among other things, that show's Super Long Range Emigrant Fleet's setting was experiencing demonstrations (and riots?) because that fleet was essentially poor.

More or less... from what I've been read and been told it comes up partly because Macross 29's head of state is the brother of the Frontier fleet's deceased president Howard Glass.

Macross the Musiculture's Macross 29 fleet was in pretty rough shape in 2062.  It doesn't seem to have been bankrolled by a megacorporation like the Frontier and Galaxy fleets, and its government's decision to adopt a policy of unarmed total pacifism eliminated two of any fleet's largest employers AND ruined its economy by making it an extreme doormat during its trade negotiations with other fleets.  The resulting economic downturn led to demonstrations that turned into riots and then eventually evolved into a legitimate political movement in the fleet that was pursuing rearmament.  

It's kind of a polar opposite of the Macross Frontier fleet, which is wealthy thanks to the backing of Bilra Transport, several major tech companies, a robust defense industry developing original weapons for the fleet and for export sale, and cultural exports and tourism. 

[TG Remix]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The resulting economic downturn led to demonstrations that turned into riots and then eventually evolved into a legitimate political movement in the fleet that was pursuing rearmament.  

That political movement being the Neo-Zentran one, right? iirc that one was about reviving Zentradi warrior principles. I assume that kind of movement would only pop up in more completely pacifistic parts of the UN if everywhere else was more focused on actually increasing defense against Zentradi.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

That political movement being the Neo-Zentran one, right? iirc that one was about reviving Zentradi warrior principles. I assume that kind of movement would only pop up in more completely pacifistic parts of the UN if everywhere else was more focused on actually increasing defense against Zentradi.

That'd be the Neo-Zentran movement/party, yes.  Though based on the setting materials I've received the movement/party is named the way it is in order to emphasize that, while it's a Zentradi political movement, it represents a new generation of Zentradi raised with Earth's culture who understand both the value of military force and of peace and culture.  They're a reform party that's looking at rearmament not because of any warrior ethos, but as a tool to address the fleet's economic and foreign policy problems.  Having its own NUNS forces and defense industry wouldn't just create jobs and stimulate the economy, it'd reduce Macross 29's dependency on its neighbors and its neighbors ability to force unfavorable terms on Macross 29 during trade negotiations.

[NightmarePlus]

So one thing i noticed about the Stealth Cruisers in Macross Delta is that they had these exposed sections of the hull revealing inner machinery, while the ones in Frontier didn't have sections of their plating removed. Any idea what's up with that?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, NightmarePlus said:

So one thing i noticed about the Stealth Cruisers in Macross Delta is that they had these exposed sections of the hull revealing inner machinery, while the ones in Frontier didn't have sections of their plating removed. Any idea what's up with that?

Not a clue... there's virtually no information about any of Macross Delta's mechanical designs outside of the VF-31 and Sv-262.

[pengbuzz]

11 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

So one thing i noticed about the Stealth Cruisers in Macross Delta is that they had these exposed sections of the hull revealing inner machinery, while the ones in Frontier didn't have sections of their plating removed. Any idea what's up with that?

They probably also had sections of the ship painted with primer, and one door painted a completely different color (got it from a junkyard or something).

[SebastianP]

I've been playing around a little with the ship models that were extracted from the PS3/PSV games, and my conclusion is that scaling the ships by features is not viable since the ships use similar features but at different scales.

For example, the NUNS cruiser reuses multiple features from the NUNS frigate, but they're individually scaled differently. 

There are four ships that all scale to about 400% of the official size as imported in my 3D software - the Battle 21, the Battle 25, the NUNS frigate, and the Maiduru escort carrier (2059 Guantanamo). The NUNS cruiser, if scaled by the same factor that gives me an accurate overall size down to the meter for the other four, comes out to 316 meters long.

But I noticed that several features are larger on the cruiser than they ought to be if they're the same ones as on the frigates:

If I want to match the size of the main turrets of the cruiser to the size of the 72 mm turrets on the frigate, the entire ship has to be scaled down to 87%, and ends up around 280 meters long.

If I want to match the size of the outrigger pods of the cruiser to the size of the outrigger pods of the frigate, the entire ship has to be scaled down to 72%, and the cruiser ends up at 227 meters.

If I want to match the size of the point defense turrets that are clustered on the ship, then the entire ship has to be scaled down to 65%, and the cruiser ends up at 208 meters. And the main turrets of the cruiser ends up just a tiny bit larger than the 58 mm beam turrets on the frigate. 

I've tried to check this against the footage in the anime, but I'm not seeing anywhere that the in-game model proportions differ significantly from the animated model.

All of which leads me to the conclusion, again, that the art team did not care if the parts were to scale as long as they looked good.

 

I've also come to the conclusion that the Elysion's size was changed to match the official statement after the fact. If I scale the ship by what we see in episode 2 with the Siegfrieds on the deck of Aether, the Elysion is some 14-1500 meters long in ship form and about as tall in robot form. There are scenes in the movies though that are more to scale with what was stated in interviews ("as tall as Burj Dubai" was the original quote, which was then quantified as 860 meters IIRC?), 

I really need to go rewatch the episode where Delta have their first space mission to see if the scale was changed more than once. 

 

And finally... if the Quarter is sub 500 meters long... where does Rabbit One launch from, because the elevators on the flight deck aren't large enough and I don't think it even fits inside the hull. König Monster is a Monster. 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, SebastianP said:

I've been playing around a little with the ship models that were extracted from the PS3/PSV games, and my conclusion is that scaling the ships by features is not viable since the ships use similar features but at different scales.

... the models for the ships aren't even accurately scaled in the games themselves, and the reused/shared features between ships in the animation were never scaled the same from the start.  I thought everyone knew this, TBH.  Macross Delta in particular certainly wasn't subtle about it.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, SebastianP said:

[...] and the Maiduru escort carrier (2059 Guantanamo). [...]

Guantanamo-class Advanced ARMD or Guantanamo-class space stealth carrier.

Also, it's "Maizuru" not "Maiduru".  In Macross 7, there was some theme naming going on with ships.  The few named Guantanamo-class ships are named for port cities with either naval bases or shipyards.  ARMD-362 Maizuru's named for Maizuru in Kyoto, which was home to the Maizuru Naval Arsenal that built ships for Imperial Japan and now is home to civilian shipbuilding concerns.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, SebastianP said:

All of which leads me to the conclusion, again, that the art team did not care if the parts were to scale as long as they looked good.

Or that the parts were never intended to be the exact same part, and simply followed the same basic design.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, SebastianP said:

And finally... if the Quarter is sub 500 meters long... where does Rabbit One launch from, because the elevators on the flight deck aren't large enough and I don't think it even fits inside the hull. König Monster is a Monster. 

It has its own elevator in the middle of the deck.

[SebastianP]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... the models for the ships aren't even accurately scaled in the games themselves, and the reused/shared features between ships in the animation were never scaled the same from the start.  I thought everyone knew this, TBH.  Macross Delta in particular certainly wasn't subtle about it.

Sure, but I couldn't *prove* it before I had the models on hand. Now I do, and now I know for sure.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Guantanamo-class Advanced ARMD or Guantanamo-class space stealth carrier.

Also, it's "Maizuru" not "Maiduru".  In Macross 7, there was some theme naming going on with ships.  The few named Guantanamo-class ships are named for port cities with either naval bases or shipyards.  ARMD-362 Maizuru's named for Maizuru in Kyoto, which was home to the Maizuru Naval Arsenal that built ships for Imperial Japan and now is home to civilian shipbuilding concerns.

It may have been meant to be "Maizuru". What's written on the actual ship model - both in the anime and in the game - is "MAIDURU". On all of them. Because we see two in the same shot with the name visible in the opening scene of Itsuwari no Utahime, and at least a couple of ships pass by outside the window while Hayate and Freyja are talking before the final battle in Zettai Live, at least one of which has the name visible. And in the game, the "MAIDURU" is baked into the main texture of the ship, rather than being a decal like the hull numbers on the Aether/Hemera or the NUNS logo on the side of the frigate (which was traded for a Xaos logo on some ships in Delta during the muster in episode 10-ish). 

I'll chalk this up to a weird typo in transliteration that no one ever bothered correcting.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or that the parts were never intended to be the exact same part, and simply followed the same basic design.

 

When the parts are identical in shape and use the same textures like the point defense guns do, I'm going to assume that they were meant to be the same guns first. And then give up trying to rationalize it and go "the tech specs are useless" even harder. 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It has its own elevator in the middle of the deck.

Where?

It can't go aft of the two existing main elevators of the ARMD-L, because behind those there's nothing underneath the flight deck as that's where the Quarter sticks its hand for ship mode.

It can't go *forward* of those elevators because that's where the hangar is, and a Monster-sized elevator would eat half of it - plus the wings would poke through because the VB-6 is ginormous and the hull is narrow.

It can't be the existing elevators because they're physically not large enough. 

And of course, it's not marked on the flight deck on any version of the Quarter I've found pictures of. 

The only way to get a VB-6 under the deck of the ARMD-L is if they made a serious typo when statting out the ship and made its overall length into what the overall *height* was supposed to be. At that point the stock elevators are big enough, and the hangar wide enough, and there'll still be room for other aircraft in the hangar. 

 

 

 

 

[darkranger12]

About the VF-31 Armored Seigfried and Kairos.   Do we know what the two Missile launchers attacted to the  boosters are called?

 

[SebastianP]

1 hour ago, darkranger12 said:

About the VF-31 Armored Seigfried and Kairos.   Do we know what the two Missile launchers attacted to the  boosters are called?

 

According to the photos of the toy, all the decals say APS-31/W, rather than having different designations for each part. I haven't found any other info yet, but then I don't have the VF-31 Master File, either version. 

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, SebastianP said:

Sure, but I couldn't *prove* it before I had the models on hand. Now I do, and now I know for sure.

I am not sure why you need to prove the obvious, but whatever.

 

18 hours ago, SebastianP said:

When the parts are identical in shape and use the same textures like the point defense guns do, I'm going to assume that they were meant to be the same guns first. And then give up trying to rationalize it and go "the tech specs are useless" even harder. 

So you'll follow a demonstrably incorrect methodology and when you don't get the answer you want you blame the official information instead?

 

4 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

About the VF-31 Armored Seigfried and Kairos.   Do we know what the two Missile launchers attacted to the  boosters are called?

Are you referring to the missile launchers built into the boosters, or the modules with the red doors?

[darkranger12]

Modules with red doors.

[SebastianP]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So you'll follow a demonstrably incorrect methodology and when you don't get the answer you want you blame the official information instead?

The issue is that I'm trying to figure out what the specs are for a ship (the Stealth Cruiser) where we never got any, and all I have to go on is feature comparison. It's the only methodology I *can* use, but the models aren't built in a way that lets me get an easy answer, which is why I'm irritated about it.

Which means that I go with my gut feeling that the internal scale, which matched for four other ships, was correct; and that the cruiser is 316 meters long, its main guns are 80 mm-ish (instead of 72 mm) and it has 40 mm point defense guns instead of 20 mm. 

 

As for me not being happy with the official information... will you accept that there is conflict between the features given on the 3D models, the sizes given for those 3D models, and events happening in the anime? Namely, that Rabbit 1 has no way of getting to the deck of the ARMD-L with the elevators we can see, and there is no room to put an elevator that is big enough for Rabbit 1 in any place where it can actually retract into anything, so long as the ship is 472 meters long and the VB-6 is 30 meters?

There are three possible resolutions to the conflict:

Option 1: the size given for the ship is incorrect, and it is enough larger that the VB-6 actually can launch from it. 

Option 2: the hangar capacity is incorrect, and the ship only carries those mecha that actually fit in real life - basically only Skull Squadron, no Rabbit 1 and likely no Pixie squad either. 

Option 3: the specs are all correct, but the 3D model is incorrect to the point where we have no idea what the Quarter really looks like. 

 

Given Kawamori's statements about how the shows are dramatizations, Option 2 is likely the "correct" answer, but that still means the specs are wrong and so is the plot. Option 3 is unquantifiable, it invalidates the visuals we have entirely. Option 1 is something I can explore because I have the models and can experiment with them. But the conflict is there, and real, and *something* is off about the official information because all of it cannot be correct at the same time due to inconsistency. 

I can do similar setups for the other ships where there is inconsistency, like the amazing shrinking Macross Elysion, (I can also see Actual Max Jenius watching the Stargazer episode of Macross 7 and going "that's not how we did it, even I couldn't do that, and that's flat impossible" about the whole "let's launch 30-something large fighters out of the tiny missile launchers on a tiny frigate, instead of using an actual carrier", like one of those "actual fighter pilot reacts to movie" youtube things...)

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

Modules with red doors.

It's just marked up as "missile pod" or "compound missile container".

In practice, it's a bunch of separate missile systems held together in a common framework.  Master File asserts that all seven micro-missile launcher systems are Bifors CIMM-5A/A type but there are two different container types: AMC-12 (three forward-facing, two rear-facing) and AMC-14 (two forward-facing).  It also contains two containers for RMS-7A reaction missiles.

 

[Hiriyu]

This is probably a dumb and elementary question, but why is it that on the VF-1 dual-mount RMS-1 pylons are placed at the outer wing hardpoints? Wouldn't you usually want to keep unexpended mass closer to the centerline of the vehicle for reasons of flight trim, balance, thrust alignment and inertial response? Is it just the case that this positioning is to allow greater flexibility in wing geometry when swept? 

I was looking at the Master Files materials and recognize that the later-block models may have had additional hardpoints in comparison to earlier models (eg; three single-pylon installations), but the basic configuration is still generally consistent with having more RMS ordinance located toward the outer extremities of the wing. I am unable to read the accompanying text from the books. Yamato, Arcadia and Bandai all seem to follow this convention with their toys, although Hasegawa and some other model kits seem to follow the later-block vision with multiple single hardpoints.