Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

Heh. One wonders, assuming that the Vajra actually developed all of their science and technology on their own, how long they had to spend charting their core sectors, unlike humans having access to at least some Zentradi navigational data. 

The story of Star Trek (or at least once they finally get past their TOS 23rd century stagnation) depends on the human-dominated Federation acquiring technology from all sorts of sources rather than independently developing things on their own. Vulcans, extinct ancient civilizations, future-originating time travelers, etc.

I'd guess they could have done it faster than any other species considering their evolutionary capabilities... but they probably took their time if they weren't in any danger.

I suspect once they evolved into a form similar to what we know and they could utilize fold travel it happened rather quickly in comparison to how we do things. Using biological fold waves they might even be able to sense where other star systems are and send scouts which immediately update everyone in real time. They can do this to multiple stars simultaneously with one scout at each.

Except for raw material consumption they tend to be rather non-invasive by the looks and it is not like they need to set up outposts (not including when hives take root in asteroids/ship hulls/planets/etc) or are really doing classical science like we do. One hive figures something out in their travels, communicates to the rest, then everyone starts doing something new. The ships likely were an evolutionary upgrade to make bulk travel easier and once they realized there is danger in the galaxy (from whatever source that might be... the Protoculture seemed to revere them but for all we know the Vajra tactical power could have come about after a hive crossed paths with a Protodeviln or Supervision Army fleet). My point is they all learn everything all at once so they pick up on things fast. Humanity moves at a plodding pace by comparison and the fact we had Zentradi help is the only reason they have done so well in Macross' timeline. That being said, the Vajra have been around for millions of years and are in no hurry to do anything fast unless they needed to in order to survive.

[Master Dex]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Per Macross Chronicle¹, their tails are essentially a large biological gravitational field propeller.  (I can only assume the tail's "wagging" is involved in shaping the distortions to achieve unidirectional force.)

Essentially, a Vajra has a very low-powered warp drive growing out of its butt.

 

1. Mechanic Sheet Macross Frontier: the Movie ETC 04A "Vajra".

If I could manipulate gravity and create spatial warping with it... I could get over my space drive being located in my rear I think.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Heh. One wonders, assuming that the Vajra actually developed all of their science and technology on their own, how long they had to spend charting their core sectors, unlike humans having access to at least some Zentradi navigational data. 

Probably several millennia, since the Vajra don't seem to have a natural urge to explore the way humanoids do (or maybe by 2059 they're jaded seen-it-all types?).  I would guess that they probably do something like the swarm migration they did when the Vajra hive Macross Galaxy attacked left, moving in search of areas with new resources or (later) areas where potential mates were.

They evolved a biological space fold mechanism, so I'd guess they probably started the same way the Protoculture did by starting with short-range fold jumps to their nearest neighboring stars, and expanding outwards from that leapfrog style.  Probably a good deal less fast in terms of the rate of expansion, since to them every system is potentially usable since they don't need breathable atmosphere or anything like that.

 

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

The story of Star Trek (or at least once they finally get past their TOS 23rd century stagnation) depends on the human-dominated Federation acquiring technology from all sorts of sources rather than independently developing things on their own. Vulcans, extinct ancient civilizations, future-originating time travelers, etc.

Star Trek's Federation was developing plenty of new technologies through the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th centuries.  They did incorporate lots of innovations from contacted alien races that they acquired in trade, but they also had both a Federation-level R&D apparatus and a technology-sharing policy among the individual research organizations in the Federation not dissimilar to what the UN Gov't instituted for overtechnology in Macross (and which Nora was so pissed about in Macross Zero).  Sisko's job, before landing that posting to DS9, was in R&D at the Utopia Planitia shipyards on Mars.  Harry Kim, in an alternate timeline episode, also worked for R&D in San Francisco doing warp drives for runabouts.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

Except for raw material consumption they tend to be rather non-invasive by the looks and it is not like they need to set up outposts (not including when hives take root in asteroids/ship hulls/planets/etc) or are really doing classical science like we do. One hive figures something out in their travels, communicates to the rest, then everyone starts doing something new. The ships likely were an evolutionary upgrade to make bulk travel easier and once they realized there is danger in the galaxy (from whatever source that might be... the Protoculture seemed to revere them but for all we know the Vajra tactical power could have come about after a hive crossed paths with a Protodeviln or Supervision Army fleet). My point is they all learn everything all at once so they pick up on things fast. Humanity moves at a plodding pace by comparison and the fact we had Zentradi help is the only reason they have done so well in Macross' timeline. That being said, the Vajra have been around for millions of years and are in no hurry to do anything fast unless they needed to in order to survive.

It's unlikely that the Vajra's tactical abilities were a response to the Protoculture, since it's noted that the Protoculture's weapons development was largely inspired by the Vajra's capabilities.

 

 

 

[SMS007]

32 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Star Trek's Federation was developing plenty of new technologies through the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th centuries.  They did incorporate lots of innovations from contacted alien races that they acquired in trade, but they also had both a Federation-level R&D apparatus and a technology-sharing policy among the individual research organizations in the Federation not dissimilar to what the UN Gov't instituted for overtechnology in Macross (and which Nora was so pissed about in Macross Zero).  Sisko's job, before landing that posting to DS9, was in R&D at the Utopia Planitia shipyards on Mars.  Harry Kim, in an alternate timeline episode, also worked for R&D in San Francisco doing warp drives for runabouts.

I have seen those episodes; I'm just pointing out that without demonstrations from unusual sources, the humans of Star Trek and Macross would be nowhere. Now from a storytelling perspective I suppose it's all the same. But from my real-life perspective, I feel that it's a bit of cheating that humans magically acquire operable tech and mass-producing it; they didn't develop it on their own.

Also, I should probably have clarified my earlier statement. When I said "23rd century stagnation", I wasn't talking in-universe terms. I meant in real life the Star Trek franchise has basically gone nowhere past 2379 (Star Trek Nemesis) in canon works because Paramount and co. are obsessed with milking all the cash they can from Kirk and Spock and their era yet again.

[azrael]

40 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably several millennia, since the Vajra don't seem to have a natural urge to explore the way humanoids do (or maybe by 2059 they're jaded seen-it-all types?).  I would guess that they probably do something like the swarm migration they did when the Vajra hive Macross Galaxy attacked left, moving in search of areas with new resources or (later) areas where potential mates were.

In other words, like any other wildlife, "Is there food/shelter here?" Yes? "Unpack the bags fellas!" No? "Keep searching ya bums!"

[Master Dex]

48 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's unlikely that the Vajra's tactical abilities were a response to the Protoculture, since it's noted that the Protoculture's weapons development was largely inspired by the Vajra's capabilities.

Yeah I said as much, I know the Protoculture revered the Vajra to an almost unhealthy level, heh. I meant other threats or maybe even run ins after the Protodeviln invasion. All speculation in any case so it matters little.

 

11 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

I have seen those episodes; I'm just pointing out that without demonstrations from unusual sources, the humans of Star Trek and Macross would be nowhere. Now from a storytelling perspective I suppose it's all the same. But from my real-life perspective, I feel that it's a bit of cheating that humans magically acquire operable tech and mass-producing it; they didn't develop it on their own.

Well yeah... developing that level of tech on their own would just take a much much longer time. Less useful for storytelling. Also conflict drives innovation more often than not. As for it being cheating... well it is not like advancement and progress has a scoreboard in reality. If you have the means to learn and grow knowledge and there is reason enough to do it without violating some moral or ethical line (if society has a thing about that at the time) then it's fair game.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, azrael said:

In other words, like any other wildlife, "Is there food/shelter here?" Yes? "Unpack the bags fellas!" No? "Keep searching ya bums!"

... ave deus mechanicus, the Vajra are insectoid space college students. 

 

 

12 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Yeah I said as much, I know the Protoculture revered the Vajra to an almost unhealthy level, heh. I meant other threats or maybe even run ins after the Protodeviln invasion. All speculation in any case so it matters little.

Besides the occasional run-in with the Zentradi, there really wasn't anything in the Milky Way that we know about that could've threatened the Vajra once the Protodeviln were sealed.  Humanity is seemingly the first species in a post-Protoculture Milky Way to discover space fold technology, the first to launch a program of interstellar exploration and colonization in 500,000 years.  All the sub-Protoculture species that the New UN Government's emigrant fleets have encountered have been cultures that hadn't even developed rudimentary spaceflight yet.  The Zolans were farthest along, having reached a level of development equivalent to the Earth in the first half of the 20th century.  Others, like Windermere IV, were still pre-enlightenment societies.

But for the Zentradi Army, the Vajra basically had the run of the Milky Way for the half a million or so years between the Stellar Republic's fall and the New UN Government's rise.

 

 

12 hours ago, SMS007 said:

I have seen those episodes; I'm just pointing out that without demonstrations from unusual sources, the humans of Star Trek and Macross would be nowhere.

Maybe in Macross, since humanity likely wouldn't have discovered super dimension spatial theory for another thousand or so years and it would've been longer still before they acquired workable space fold systems and began exploring space.  

Star Trek, not so much.  Humanity had already discovered warp drive before they ever made first contact with another alien species, and the Vulcans withheld everything they reasonably could, as they were afraid of the pace humanity was advancing.  They'd already mastered the foundational principles of most of the tech way before the Federation was established and technology-sharing started.  There are some cases where they got outside help early on, but that was to counter the interference of uptime factions in the Temporal Cold War trying to alter history.  Most of the UFP technology is self-developed, it's just that the self-development is no longer entirely done by the humans because the society and government is no longer entirely human.

 

12 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Now from a storytelling perspective I suppose it's all the same. But from my real-life perspective, I feel that it's a bit of cheating that humans magically acquire operable tech and mass-producing it; they didn't develop it on their own.

In Macross, they didn't.  They had a ship that fell out of the goddamn sky and was a literal wreck... even with the broken remains of the hardware to study, it took them YEARS and spending much of the planetary economy on analysis of the ship's technology to suss out even the basic principles of its operation and begin to apply them to human technology.  

In Star Trek, it's an occasional plot device but most of the time the operable tech they acquire isn't compatible without a lot of rework or doesn't work as advertised once integrated.  Most Federation advances are developed in the Federation's own labs.  (It's not a strictly human society, so why let the humans do all the heavy lifting... they're just one of over 150 member worlds after all.)

 

12 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Also, I should probably have clarified my earlier statement. When I said "23rd century stagnation", I wasn't talking in-universe terms. I meant in real life the Star Trek franchise has basically gone nowhere past 2379 (Star Trek Nemesis) in canon works because Paramount and co. are obsessed with milking all the cash they can from Kirk and Spock and their era yet again.

That's because, between DS9, VOY, First Contact, Nemesis, and the main timeline starting point for the Kelvin timeline, Star Trek's main timeline has run out of credible antagonists and hemmed in by Voyager's reckless use of time travel stories.

So much so that the officially-sanctioned Expanded Universe novels (Relaunch timeline) that do go beyond that had some serious grasping-at-straws to do to create a faction that could threaten the Federation... an alliance of the Gorn, Breen, Tzenkethi, Tholians, Romulan remnants, and an original minor power into the Typhon Pact.

[Seto Kaiba]

From back on page 8, my copies of Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight Vol.2 and Macross Delta Gaiden: Macross E Vol.2 arrived today.  I did a quick skim and it looks like there'll be a couple of relevant tech goodies to discuss WRT cyborgs, VF-27s, and the VF-171s cockpit in battroid mode.

I'll get 'round to those in a little bit, got one quick task to take care of first.

[Sildani]

Ooh, Lucifer tech goodies. I wait with bated breath...

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

Ooh, Lucifer tech goodies. I wait with bated breath...

OK, where to begin...?

 

So... no real technical info of any value to be had in Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight volume two, unless you really wanna see the world's worst-drawn VF-22.  I can't exaggerate how badly drawn it is, which is WEIRD because they lavish all kinds of detail on the Sv-262Hs just a few pages further in.  It looks like one of those superdeformed VF cookies that Ranka made in the Macross Frontier series.  They do briefly show the rollout of the Sv-262s though.

Macross E has some WEIRD material to chew over though.

From last volume's cliffhanger chapter, there are Vajra on Pipure and Ivar Tsari manages to catch one and bring it back to his company's base so they can experiment with biological fold waves on one of them.  The weird bit from that sequence is a contradictory depiction of the VF-171 cockpit block.  Several art books including the recently released Designers Note have indicated its cockpit hatch in battroid works the same way as the VF-17's with the center chest lifting up.  This shows rather a different version, with the cockpit block dropping down along the front of the lower torso, leaving the canopy exposed and the cockpit itself at a steep angle.  Mere pages later, they show Kite's ejection seat existing the aircraft using the VF-17 method... but there's an actual SEAT being ejected, in addition to the EX-Gear.  (Ivan Tsari manages to salvage a live dome from the wrecked Echo 3).

(As an aside, without his freaking luca libre mask, Ivan Tsari/Polivanov looks like a darker-haired version of Kisuke Urahara from Bleach.)

If I had to guess, I'd say the artist probably used a DX Chogokin VF-171EX as reference for the art... since he keeps accidentally drawing the Nightmare Plus EX with its intake covers closed even though it's flying in atmosphere at every point in the story.

It seems musical instruments have come a ways too, Thrones members Sophie and Shinobu seem to have a entirely holographic instruments (drums and keyboard).  Pirika's guitar seems to be the only physically-present instrument of the lot.

Ivan Tsari/Polivanov is definitely a full-on cyborg.  In Vol.2 he's shown being able to remotely fly his VF-27γ Lucifer while singing from the top of the salvaged live dome he attached to it... with what appears to be a completely ordinary microphone on a stand.  It looks like the VF-27 might have a standard radome mounting arm on the lower back just above the connection point for the forearm shield.  (RVF-27 ahoy?)   He's shown to be even better at tanking hits than Brera was, until one of his own disillusioned mooks offs him with an anti-materiel rifle.  It leaves him as half the man he used to be, but apart from some blood (or bloodlike system fluid) from the mouth there are NO conventional organs visible... as if his entire body was purely mechanical.

His VF-27 also seems to be capable of bringing its outboard engine nacelle guns and missile launchers to bear in battroid mode by bringing the back plate up to level, almost like a VF-2SS's railgun.

The last three noteworthy insights are pretty minor... apparently the (badly drawn) Macross-class ship IS a Macross-class SDFN.  No number or original name given, but it was the flagship for the large-scale long-distance emigrant fleet that discovered and settled Pipure.  Pipure's autonomous government kept the ship for planetary defense, and eventually retired it.  It was then sold off to the Epsilon Foundation's local branch office, who in turn "gifted" it to Ivan Polivanov's Zelgar Heavy Industries.  The spiked ring on its back is a large communications antenna cluster used to transmit fold songs as part of Ivan's experiment in using them for mind control.

Pipure's local New UN Forces defense force uses the Cheyenne II destroid... and for once they're NOT utterly-worthless cannon fodder (maybe).

Lastly, Elma Hoyly is taking her obsession with Basara a bit far.  She's somehow managed to get her hands on a VF-19 second production type and has customized it into a replica of Basara's Fire Valkyrie.  Looks exactly the same, and has the same equipment... only it's green instead of red, and she calls it the Wind Valkyrie.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Sir Galahad®]

Elma Hoyly? Wow! How old is she by this time? I wonder how she looks like right now.

[Seto Kaiba]

31 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Elma Hoyly? Wow! How old is she by this time? I wonder how she looks like right now.

Yeah, Elma Hoyly from Macross Dynamite 7.  Dunno how old she is, I don't honestly recall ever seeing an officially-stated age for her in Macross Dynamite 7's publications, but she's approximately sixteen years older than she was in the OVA.  I'd assume that'd make her a woman in her mid-to-late 20s.  She looks mostly unchanged, apart from being taller and having acquired some curves.  When she appeares in Macross E in 2062, she's a biologist who's well-regarded for a paper on the life and migration habits of the galactic whales, and is collaborating with Xaos Pipure branch on Project Thrones (presumably based on her earlier work with Lawrence, and is probably responsible for the development of Xaos's live dome and other early tactical sound unit hardware (probably based on the speaker systems Lawrence developed in Dynamite 7).

No explanation is given for how she managed to obtain a VF-19F and customize it into a perfect replica of Basara Nekki's famous Fire Valkyrie though... that's not the kind of thing you can just buy.

[SMS007]

Oh wow, thanks for dispensing the information, Seto Kaiba!

[Sildani]

Thanks indeed. An RVF-27 Lucifer sounds really interesting. As Lucifer translates as “Morning Star”, perhaps the RVF should be called “Warning Star”. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, Sildani said:

Thanks indeed. An RVF-27 Lucifer sounds really interesting. As Lucifer translates as “Morning Star”, perhaps the RVF should be called “Warning Star”. 

... that's pretty damned clever.  Bravo sir, bravo.

I may end up using that when I revise my homebrew RPG stats to include the VF-27 w/ radome.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[SMS007]

I don't like how RVF-25 and RVF-171EX have the "R" in front. I prefer how electronic warfare VF-31E has the designating letter at the end.

[Valkyrie Driver]

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

I don't like how RVF-25 and RVF-171EX have the "R" in front. I prefer how electronic warfare VF-31E has the designating letter at the end.

So, the E in VF-31E doesn't denote that it's an electronic warfare variant. Macross more or less Uses a US post-1962 triservice aircraft designation based system. 

With the YF series of fighters (19, 21, 24, 29, 30) we see the use of status prefixes:

• G: Permanently grounded
• J: Special test, temporary
• N: Special test, permanent
• X: Experimental
• Y: Prototype
• Z: Planning

Then there are Modified mission prefixes, which we see with the RVF-25, RVF-171EX, EVA-3:

• A: Attack (i.e., air-to-surface)
• C: Transport (i.e., cargo)
• D: Drone director
• E: Special electronic mission
• F: Fighter
• H: Search and rescue, MEDEVAC
• K: Tanker
• L: Equipped for cold weather operations
• M: Missile carrier (1962 – c.1972), Mine countermeasures (c.1973–1976), Multi-mission (1977 onwards)
• O: Observation
• P: Maritime patrol
• Q: Unmanned drone
• R: Reconnaissance
• S: Antisubmarine warfare
• T: Trainer
• U: Utility
• V: Staff transport
• W: Weather reconnaissance

And finally the Basic Mission Codes:

• A: Attack aircraft (for tactical air-to-surface mission)
• B: Bomber (for strategic air-to-surface mission)
• C: Transport (Cargo)
• E: Special electronic installation
• F: Fighter
• K: Tanker (dropped between 1977 and 1985)
• L: Laser-equipped
• O: Observation (Forward Air Control)
• P: Maritime patrol
• R: Reconnaissance
• S: Anti-submarine warfare
• T: Trainer
• U: Utility
• X: Special research

Further in the Tri-Service designation system, you have vehicle type designators. Aircraft that don't fall under one of these categories don't require a type (e.g. fixed wing heavier-than-air craft):

• D: Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) control segment
• G: Glider
• H: Helicopter
• Q: Unmanned aerial vehicle
• S: Spaceplane
• V: Vertical take-off/short take-off and landing (VTOL/STOL)
• Z: Lighter-than-air

Now there are plenty of Aberrant designations; F/A-18, which derives from a shorthand referring to two variants of the same basic design, SR-71, in which the S stands for strategic, and a few others. So if we take the VF-19C for an example, V would be either aberrant meaning Variable, or out of sequence denoting a V/STOL Aircraft. F denotes a primary mission as a Fighter, 19 is the design number, and C indicates the major modification. In this case a C model is a single seat, the D would be the two set variant of the C. Looking at the EVA-3A, that's an Electronic Warfare modification on a VA-3A. Again V indicates variable or V/STOL, A meaning attack, 3 is the design number, and A indicates the first model of the series. With the VF-31 Siegfrieds, you have 5 distinct modifications on the original VF-31A/B (I have to assume there's a B model 2 seater). You have the Mirage C model, Chuck's E model, Messer's F model, Hayate's J model, and Arad's S model. For Some reason the D model gets skipped. "I" and "O" would be skipped in order to avoid confusion with "1" and "0", as it is in the real world. 

In this case, it may not be coincidental that Chuck's VF-31 is the E model, but that's not implicitly what the E stands for. In fact, R doesn't seem to be the right modifier for the RVF-25 or RVF-171 either. Since those are both technically Airborne Early Warning, and would thus have an E prefix designation (e.g. EVF-25, EVF-171). Furthermore those two fighters should have a Series letter attached to them. Again though they would fall under aberrant designations.

 

I hope that does some explaining of how things are designated in Macross.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Valkyrie Driver

[SMS007]

Thanks for the explanation although my opinion remains unchanged.

[SMS007]

On 10/19/2017 at 4:34 PM, Valkyrie Driver said:

I was looking on Macross Mecha Manual, and well...

I know it's not a Destroid or a Variable fighter, but I did just realize that Ozma's car is in fact a Lancia Delta. I mean, it was labeled that way on the site, but the everything is right, save the emblem (since it's not there). I found that pretty cool. Considering it's practically ancient...

 

On 10/19/2017 at 5:28 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, according to Macross Chronicle Ozma's a bit of a car nut... it shows, considering he chose to make a replica Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione 1 rally car retrofitted for Milky Road service his daily driver.  No word on what the powerplant is, but if it's anything like the other cars described in the Macross Chronicle mechanic sheets for DYRL? and Plus, it's almost certainly a hydrogen engine or a series hybrid with a hydrogen-burning generator... a subject quite near and dear to my heart, considering my vocation and employer.

It's noted in the relevant Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet that it was remodeled for space use (probably meaning Milky Road use).

 

On 10/19/2017 at 9:57 PM, Sildani said:

That seems pretty constant in sci-fi anime. In the original Evangelion Misato drove a Renault Alpine modified to electric, in the manga Kaji has a Lotus 1600. In the Sky Crawlers, Kusanagi has a personal Porsche 911 from the 80’s, dunno the chassis generation. And let’s not forget Batou’s classic car collection in Ghost in the Shell.  Makes you think these guys are all motorheads deep down, or perhaps not so deep. 

Haha, this comes to mind.

 

[Valkyrie Driver]

36 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Thanks for the explanation although my opinion remains unchanged.

I guess that's fair. Still, I actually prefer the way Macross does it. It's familiar, and it's descriptive. The Designation tells you everything you need to know about what it is and what it does, as long as you know how to decode the designation. Further indicators like block numbers which we discussed earlier in relation to the VF-171 give even more information.

 

[Podtastic]

Not sure if this is answered elsewhere, but what are the primary enhancements of the Queadluun-Rhea over the Rau?

Also is the Rhea still the latest Queadluun model? 

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, SMS007 said:

I don't like how RVF-25 and RVF-171EX have the "R" in front. I prefer how electronic warfare VF-31E has the designating letter at the end.

I'm not a fan of it either, truth be told... I've always preferred the dedicated electronic warfare and AWACS variants to be designated VE, as they were up until Macross Frontier introduced the "RVF" designation with the RVF-171 Nightmare Plus.  The last main fighter VE variant we had was VE-11 Thunderseeker, the ELINT/AWACS version of the VF-11C Super Thunderbolt.

(I refuse to count the VEFR-1 for this purpose, because it was a horrid kludge machine rather than being a purpose-built ELINT/AWACS model, and its nickname of "Funny Chinese" is pretty awful too.)

 

 

8 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

So, the E in VF-31E doesn't denote that it's an electronic warfare variant. Macross more or less Uses a US post-1962 triservice aircraft designation based system. 

Technically correct (the best kind of correct), though it's worth noting that the VF-31E wasn't even a true variant... Xaos assigned unofficial variant letters to its one-of-a-kind VF-31 Custom Siegfrieds to differentiate them.  Also probably worth noting that the VF-31 wouldn't have a dedicated variant for that purpose, since the ordnance container system enables ANY variant to be outfitted with AWACS and ELINT hardware in the space of a few minutes by swapping containers.

 

8 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

With the VF-31 Siegfrieds, you have 5 distinct modifications on the original VF-31A/B (I have to assume there's a B model 2 seater). You have the Mirage C model, Chuck's E model, Messer's F model, Hayate's J model, and Arad's S model.

'cept for the VF-31A and VF-31B, those are all apparently unofficial designations.

 

8 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

For Some reason the D model gets skipped. "I" and "O" would be skipped in order to avoid confusion with "1" and "0", as it is in the real world. 

Probably deferring to the New UN Forces' [habit/tradition] of reserving -B, -D, or both for a tandem cockpit training variant of their main variable fighter, as they'd previously done for the VF-0, VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, VF-19, VF-25, and potentially VF-31.  No word on if the VF-171 did, since it was built on the VF-17 platform that didn't.  Also... (https://xkcd.com/1105/)

 

8 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

In fact, R doesn't seem to be the right modifier for the RVF-25 or RVF-171 either. Since those are both technically Airborne Early Warning, and would thus have an E prefix designation (e.g. EVF-25, EVF-171). Furthermore those two fighters should have a Series letter attached to them. Again though they would fall under aberrant designations.

The VF-171 is the worst offender there, since its variant letter is persistently walkabout except in secondary and pseudocanon sources, which mention a plethora of them, identifying the final Block III variant as the VF-171L.

 

 

7 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Haha, this comes to mind.

IMHO, three Star Trek movies by Jar-Jar Abrams there was four too many.

 

 

6 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Further indicators like block numbers which we discussed earlier in relation to the VF-171 give even more information.

Not to mention the more recent Frontier-era wrinkle of local spec minor variation codes.

It can get a bit hairy when you're looking at something like:
VF-19C-5/MG21 or RVF-171L-IIIF/MF25

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Not sure if this is answered elsewhere, but what are the primary enhancements of the Queadluun-Rhea over the Rau?

The biggest areas of enhancement are in control and survivability.

They replaced the Queadluun-Rau's stock thermonuclear converters with more powerful ones built by General Galaxy, and used the output gains to improve the cockpit's defenses by beefing up the energy conversion armor.  The cockpit's life support functions were reinforced, the control system hardware was modernized and brought up to safety standards including the addition of redundant backup control circuits, the avionics were modernized and expanded to add hardware support for fold boosters, and a simple BDI system very similar to the one used on the VF-22 was installed to supplement the physical controls.  Attachment points for auxiliary propellant tanks, a 76mm anti-warship impact cannon, and a multipurpose hardpoint for a fold booster or large ordnance (e.g. a thermonuclear reaction missile) was added.

Unfortunately, the added complexity didn't help the already complex design's manufacturing issues and relatively few were built.

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Also is the Rhea still the latest Queadluun model? 

As far as we know, the latest model is the Queadluun-Rhea/56... General Galaxy's Queadluun-Rhea upgrade for 2056, which is what was used by Pixie Platoon in Macross Frontier.

[azrael]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably deferring to the New UN Forces' [habit/tradition] of reserving -B, -D, or both for a tandem cockpit training variant of their main variable fighter, as they'd previously done for the VF-0, VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, VF-19, VF-25, and potentially VF-31.  No word on if the VF-171 did, since it was built on the VF-17 platform that didn't.  Also... (https://xkcd.com/1105/)

I don't think the VF-25 and VF-31 (or the VF-24-family in general) count in that list anymore because they have a dedicated 2nd seat built-in. Dedicated 2-seater variants (unless they remove the fold-down seat with EX-Gear) seem deprecated these days. 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, azrael said:

I don't think the VF-25 and VF-31 (or the VF-24-family in general) count in that list anymore because they have a dedicated 2nd seat built-in. Dedicated 2-seater variants (unless they remove the fold-down seat with EX-Gear) seem deprecated these days. 

They've maintained the designation pattern thus far, and Variable Fighter Master File (though not a canon resource) does also spin that into dedicated tandem cockpit training aircraft for the -B and -D on the VF-25.  The VF-31B's likely also for model conversion training, though the only info we have on it to date is that it's a thing that exists.

[Sildani]

23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... that's pretty damned clever.  Bravo sir, bravo.

I may end up using that when I revise my homebrew RPG stats to include the VF-27 w/ radome.

High praise indeed! Feel free to use it. I’ll be tickled pink. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

22 hours ago, azrael said:

I don't think the VF-25 and VF-31 (or the VF-24-family in general) count in that list anymore because they have a dedicated 2nd seat built-in. Dedicated 2-seater variants (unless they remove the fold-down seat with EX-Gear) seem deprecated these days. 

I was under the impression that the rear seats in the VF-25's and VF-31's were jumpseats, similar to the YF-19's, rather than fully functional cockpits. Also, fully functional rear seat cockpits are generally only common in trainers. Mostly, the back seat is a more specialized role. There are flight controls in the back seat in many aircraft, but fuel management, engine startup and shutdown, is all absent. Single set fighters are the norm now, and would be in Macross, with the rear seat likely fulfilling a specialized role, similar to the way the F-15E operates. 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I was under the impression that the rear seats in the VF-25's and VF-31's were jumpseats, similar to the YF-19's, rather than fully functional cockpits.

Yeah, that's still the case.

 

7 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Also, fully functional rear seat cockpits are generally only common in trainers. Mostly, the back seat is a more specialized role. There are flight controls in the back seat in many aircraft, but fuel management, engine startup and shutdown, is all absent. Single set fighters are the norm now, and would be in Macross, with the rear seat likely fulfilling a specialized role, similar to the way the F-15E operates. 

Unconventionally, the VF-0 Phoenix seems to have made fuel management available to (or maybe even the responsibility of) the RIO to permit the pilot to focus on maneuvering.  Edgar did have to chastise Shin several times in Macross Zero to keep an eye on the fuel consumption.

First and Second Generation VFs seem to have kept tandem cockpits around for just three specific cases:

• Enhanced Attack variants (e.g. VF-4B) to assist in bombing and guided munitions operation.
• Model conversion training and/or new pilot training
• Airborne Early Warning and Control variants (e.g. VEFR-1, VE-1)

From the Third Generation on, the full tandem cockpit seems to have become purely the territory of the dedicated training aircraft.  The VE-11C Thunderseeker had a solo cockpit, as did the RVF-19EF Warning Calibur, RVF-171 Nightmare Plus, and RVF-25 Mainstay.  It does look like there's a distinct pattern emerging where there's a N+1 training variant for each mass production variant.  You have the -A variant that's the first production unit, then a -B variant that's its tandem equivalent, then a improved production -C unit, followed by a -D tandem variant. 

The VF-11 and VF-17 bucked that trend by having a low-volume variant that was superseded almost as soon as it was delivered.  The VF-11's first mass production type (VF-11A) was superseded pretty much right away by an improved model to address deficiencies (VF-11B) and an economy model for emigrant fleet use (VF-11C), so the tandem cockpit trainer became the VF-11D.  The VF-17 had the same issue but one variant later, with the VF-17B presumably being the first conversion trainer and the VF-17C being superseded quickly by a Gen 3.5 replacement, the VF-17D, pushing the N+1 onto the Gen 3.5 command type as VF-17T.  Master File does confirm that the VF-19 and VF-25 followed this pattern, which is hinted at in official sources as well though to date no tandem version for the VF-19 has directly appeared.

I'd expect that the VF-27 probably doesn't have one, since the VF-27's control is achieved through implants and therefore special controls are not necessary.

[SMS007]

This has probably been asked already and I'm just not using the right search terms, but is the VF-31 capable of bypassing dimensional barriers like the YF-30? Surely Rion Sakaki breaking Yurva Arga's fold barrier with the help of Nekki Basara was considered a highlight of Aisha Blanchett's model's performance. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm also curious as to why the VF-171 had such a radical change to the nose of the fighter? Also why the change to the transformation in that particular section?

[JB0]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VE-11C Thunderseeker had

a super-awesome name.

[Master Dex]

5 hours ago, SMS007 said:

This has probably been asked already and I'm just not using the right search terms, but is the VF-31 capable of bypassing dimensional barriers like the YF-30? Surely Rion Sakaki breaking Yurva Arga's fold barrier with the help of Nekki Basara was considered a highlight of Aisha Blanchett's model's performance. 

So far as it can be seen, the VF-31 did not have the Fold Dimensional Resonance system that was the entire point of the YF-30, so potentially no it cannot do the same thing. The VF-31 Siegfrieds do have Fold Wave systems, the slightly less advanced but still notably powerful system that the YF-29 introduced, but that is more designed to boost the mechs performance via fold energy generated with.. music and magic and stuff (Seto will explain it properly, lol). So far I don't think the tech from the YF-30 has gone on to any other VF. Also the VF-31A/B Kairos does not have the Fold Wave system either as that's the mass production model and that crap's expensive (requires chunks of fold quartz).

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, JB0 said:

a super-awesome name.

Indubitably.

 

 

10 hours ago, SMS007 said:

This has probably been asked already and I'm just not using the right search terms, but is the VF-31 capable of bypassing dimensional barriers like the YF-30? Surely Rion Sakaki breaking Yurva Arga's fold barrier with the help of Nekki Basara was considered a highlight of Aisha Blanchett's model's performance. 

Nein.  Thus far, the Fold Dimensional Resonance system has only been implemented on the YF-30 Chronos prototype operated by Rion Sakaki.  We know SMS went to considerable lengths to avoid disclosing the specs for the technology, but it's not clear if it either was never disclosed, or wasn't suitable for production due to cost or stability issues.  Surya Aerospace's VF-31 Kairos left out any kind of fold wave system derivative when they used the YF-30 as a starting point, and Xaos's own custom version was built with a fold wave system.¹  

They kept most of the YF-30's other features, including the Brunhilde-type ARIEL II airframe control AI, ordnance container system, etc.

 

 

5 hours ago, Master Dex said:

The VF-31 Siegfrieds do have Fold Wave systems, the slightly less advanced but still notably powerful system that the YF-29 introduced, but that is more designed to boost the mechs performance via fold energy generated with.. music and magic and stuff (Seto will explain it properly, lol).

No I won't, because it's never been properly explained HOW the fold wave system improves engine performance and so on.  I mean, I can guess... but I can't speak with authority on the matter.

If I had to guess, I would assume the improvement in performance is coming from either using the fold dimensional energy conversion feature to replace the generator output from the engine's CTR, allowing it to devote 100% of the reaction energy to thrust production, or that the fold waves from the system allow the GIC's dimensional resonator inside the CTR to produce superheavy quantum instead of regular heavy quantum, making the reaction more energetic via better gravitational fuel compression or perhaps substituting heavy quantum for fuel entirely (turning the engine into a low-powered Macross Cannon used for thrust).

 

Quote

So far I don't think the tech from the YF-30 has gone on to any other VF. Also the VF-31A/B Kairos does not have the Fold Wave system either as that's the mass production model and that crap's expensive (requires chunks of fold quartz).

The non-proprietary stuff in the YF-30 has, like the ordnance container and its choice of airframe control AI (the YF-25's ARIEL II/Brunhilde).

Fold quartz adoption is likely to remain constrained to essential systems in the near term, as the New UN Government still restricts [mining/harvesting] and trade in fold quartz to slow down the proliferation of dimensional warheads.  Synthetic fold quartz like the Protoculture were eventually able to produce is beyond the capabilities of the New UN Government at this time.

 

 

7 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'm also curious as to why the VF-171 had such a radical change to the nose of the fighter? Also why the change to the transformation in that particular section?

The reason given for the change in the design of the aircraft's nose in Macross Chronicle² is that it was lengthened to improve and refine the fighter's aerodynamic profile in the name of boosting its all-regime performance.  Being designed mainly for space, the VF-17 is noted as having been a bit deficient in atmospheric performance and the VF-171 sought to address that.

The changes to the transformation were intended to simplify the overall transformation of the VF-171 for the purposes of cost reduction and maintenance simplification of the mass production unit.³  

 

 

1. Or, if you trust the few non-contradictory portions of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried, the Xaos Valkyrie Works outfitted the VF-31 Custom Siegfried units built for the Ragna branch's 3rd Fighter Wing Δ Flight with a seriously cut-down version of the fold wave system that uses much less fold quartz.  It uses the same two pieces of high-purity fold quartz for both fold wave projectors AND the fold wave system core, thus letting them build three VF-31 Custom Siegfrieds with the same amount of fold quartz that'd go into one YF-29 Durandal at the expense of high performance.

2. Mechanic Sheet Macross Frontier NUNS 02A VF-171 Nightmare Plus, bizarrely mentioned under the Battroid Mode section rather than in the Fighter mode section.

3. At least initially, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus was the K.I.S.S. version of the VF-17 ("Keep It Simple, Stupid") meant to economize the design for the kind of large-scale mass production and operation that the VF-17 never got with its sub-1000 unit initial production run.  Later improvements made in Blocks II and III boosted its performance such that it was actually superior to the Generation 3.5 VF-17 in almost every respect.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[SMS007]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nein.  Thus far, the Fold Dimensional Resonance system has only been implemented on the YF-30 Chronos prototype operated by Rion Sakaki.  We know SMS went to considerable lengths to avoid disclosing the specs for the technology, but it's not clear if it either was never disclosed, or wasn't suitable for production due to cost or stability issues.  Surya Aerospace's VF-31 Kairos left out any kind of fold wave system derivative when they used the YF-30 as a starting point, and Xaos's own custom version was built with a fold wave system.¹  

They kept most of the YF-30's other features, including the Brunhilde-type ARIEL II airframe control AI, ordnance container system, etc.

How convenient for the Windermereans then.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

How convenient for the Windermereans then.

The bit that's really convenient for Windermereans was a few paragraphs further on...

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Fold quartz adoption is likely to remain constrained to essential systems in the near term, as the New UN Government still restricts [mining/harvesting] and trade in fold quartz to slow down the proliferation of dimensional warheads.

 

Windermere IV is a planet rich in fold quartz, to the extent that its current (5th) generation main VF - the Sv-262 Draken III - was able to adopt a scaled-back version of the fold wave system for mass production!  It doesn't confer fold dimensional energy conversion capability, but Windermere's Fold Reheat technology offers a 25-30% engine power boost... up to twice the engine performance gain offered by the fold wave system in the VF-31 Siegfried.¹

 

1. The Ba variant issued to normal pilots has a reheat system that produces a 25% improvement in main engine output.  The Hs variant issued to squadron leaders offers a 30% improvement in main engine output.  The VF-31 Siegfried's fold wave system only improves output 15%.

[SMS007]

I'm a bit surprised the Windermereans didn't just have Epsilon build some dimensional warheads for them. Not like Space Nazis are strangers to hypocrisy. 

In any case, that fold quartz is probably going to go towards fold weaponry of some kind used by the next TV anime's antagonists. You and/or other people in the know via Japanese books say that the Anti-UN remnants/General Galaxy/Epsilon have been a looming threat on the galactic stage, as I recall.