Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Interesting, and very helpful, thank you!  I think it still raises an issue, though, in that the thermonuclear reactor is, well, reacting to produce the plasma, and that plasma still needs to be exhausted even if the turbines aren't blasting it out, correct?  Maybe the transducers are so efficient that it can be radically throttled down when not actively flying and still have enough power to run the whole thing in a combat situation, but there will still be some super hot gases spewing out of the nozzles the whole time.  Only other option I can think of is that they have a way to close off the expansion chamber after the reactor and run off the "bottled" plasma for awhile, but that raises the problem of being able to flip a thermonuclear reactor on and off at will (maybe not too big an issue since it is fuel injected and gravity powered instead of needing neutron dampening).

I'm still having images of valkyries stomping around sandblasting everything within a dozen meters and setting things on fire wherever they go.  Entertaining, but not practical.  😉 

I think there are a couple reasons we don't see that happening.

First, the amount of plasma in the engine at any one time is actually quite small.  Official setting resources like Macross Chronicle describe OTM thermonuclear reactors like the ones found in a VF's engines as extremely high-efficiency due to the use of Gravity and Inertia Control systems for fuel compression and plasma confinement.  The reactors can run on less fuel, and run much hotter, than a modern/conventional fusion reactor that relies on lasers and electromagnets.  The system used in thermonuclear reaction turbines has such high efficiency that VFs are said to have effectively unlimited range in atmospheric flight due to using intake air as propellant.  A few sources say the VF-1 has enough internally-carried reactant to operate for up to 700 hours between refuelings, which means the amount of reactant consumed (and plasma produced) must be very small.

Master File gives some directional guidance as to how small.  Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie describes the VF-1 reactant storage as being a pair of 150 liter capacity slush tanks, one in each engine nacelle.  That suggests the fuel consumption rate in normal operation is a hair under 0.06ml/s, or about 214ml/hour.  In more visual terms, eight hours of continuous operation would consume a bit less than five soda cans worth of reactant per engine.  With such a small quantity of plasma inside the engine at any given time, the amount of exhaust is almost certainly trivial unless the turbine is actively generating thrust.

 

Second, the usage of the plasma varies depending on mode and engine demand.  The reason that many energy-intensive technologies like energy conversion armor and pinpoint barriers are not available in Fighter mode is because the heat from the plasma is also used to heat propellant (be it intake air or internally stored liquid) in order to produce thrust for flight.  The Fighter-mode VF is essentially "wasting" most of the energy-generation potential of that hot plasma in order to use it to generate more thrust.  Battroid mode is the opposite, prioritizing energy generation over thrust production and wringing every last bit of usable heat out of the GIC-confined plasma for that purpose.  By the time the plasma held in the engine for electricity generation purposes is released, it has cooled considerably and the relatively small quantity being released at any given time is unlikely to kick up any significant debris.  With just 0.06ml/s of reactant going into the engine, the volume of exhaust gas coming out is likely around 500-600ml/s... about the same as an average adult's normal exhalation.

[guyxxed]

Fair enough.  The engineer in me is still raising an eyebrow that you could get enough thrust out of that small an amount of reactant to move a multi-ton air/spacecraft at the speeds we see, but there are certainly crazier things to accept and at least there's a thought through rationale behind it.  Works for me, and thank you for pulling those together. I'm always a bit impressed at the depth of world building Macross has accumulated over the years, whether it's "official" or otherwise, it's all fun to read through. 

[Master Dex]

37 minutes ago, guyxxed said:

Fair enough.  The engineer in me is still raising an eyebrow that you could get enough thrust out of that small an amount of reactant to move a multi-ton air/spacecraft at the speeds we see, but there are certainly crazier things to accept and at least there's a thought through rationale behind it.  Works for me, and thank you for pulling those together. I'm always a bit impressed at the depth of world building Macross has accumulated over the years, whether it's "official" or otherwise, it's all fun to read through. 

As another engineer, an aerospace one even, I understand your disbelief. 

I think we have to consider just how efficient and hot this reaction is, it's more than we're imagining for sure. And like Seto said it's based on advanced alien tech we can't replicate with real world analogues. This is a classic unobtanium situation, in the literary sense. It's something that physics says is completely doable but the capability is entirely outside of reality as we know it, but not as they in the continuity know it. 

That's always my preferred kind of sci-fi tech, rather than technobabble that means nothing.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/27/2025 at 8:15 PM, guyxxed said:

Fair enough.  The engineer in me is still raising an eyebrow that you could get enough thrust out of that small an amount of reactant to move a multi-ton air/spacecraft at the speeds we see, but there are certainly crazier things to accept and at least there's a thought through rationale behind it.  Works for me, and thank you for pulling those together. I'm always a bit impressed at the depth of world building Macross has accumulated over the years, whether it's "official" or otherwise, it's all fun to read through. 

One engineer to another, the raised eyebrow is completely understandable.  We're talking about weird sci-fi futuretech after all.

That said, Masahiro Chiba is a one thorough guy because he anticipated this concern too and prepared an explanation as far back as the original VF-1 tech manual in '84.  

His explanation actually starts with an acknowledgement of exactly the problem you're pointing out.  The plasma coming out of the reactor may be several hundred megakelvin, but the small quantity moment-by-moment and the relatively short length of the engine means that the plasma would not be able to transfer enough heat to the propellant flows moving through it without some assistance.  That assistance comes in the form of the same Gravity and Inertia Control systems inside the engine body that prevent the plasma from contacting the engine interior.  The GIC systems essentially create a small pocket of super-intense artificial gravity inside the engine that compresses the propellant flows while also holding the plasma inside the engine for longer, allowing a more uniform and complete heat transfer to take place and increasing the exhaust velocity when the now-superheated propellant is released.

It's described as essentially using a GIC to simulate having a larger thrust increase/burner section.

This is a large part of why advances in thermonuclear reaction engine technology are generally attributed to improvements in GIC technology, in both official media and in Master File.  The more precise and powerful the GIC systems in the engine, the hotter the reactor can run and the greater the compression they can exert inside the engine to increase the propellant flow's pressure and temperature.

 

(And yes, Chiba-san is well aware this is bullsh*t sci-fi spacemagic futuretech... as a little joke, the computer controlling all this is literally named MAGIC.  The Matrix of Gravity and Inertia Control.)

[guyxxed]

Okay, that works for me (the acknowledgement by Chiba), and I'll happily go back to suspending my disbelief.  Like I said, I really appreciate that there has been thought given to things like this, someone took the time to figure it all out and write it down, and that it's all there for us to puzzle through and absorb.  Thank you very much for pulling it together and sharing it, this is fun stuff. 

(And, as an engineer who can't let things go, I started doing some calculations on just how much acceleration you would need on those few milliliters of fuel to impart the kick we observe to an 18m long fighter plane, and...well, it's very big numbers.  Significant fractions of c.  Wild).

[JB0]

2 hours ago, guyxxed said:

(And, as an engineer who can't let things go, I started doing some calculations on just how much acceleration you would need on those few milliliters of fuel to impart the kick we observe to an 18m long fighter plane, and...well, it's very big numbers.  Significant fractions of c.  Wild).

Those few milliliters of fuel aren't all that gets thrown out. It's like a jet engine, the fuel is being used to heat air and the superheated air is doing the work.

Except in space, where extra tanks of reaction mass are installed to replace the air.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, guyxxed said:

Okay, that works for me (the acknowledgement by Chiba), and I'll happily go back to suspending my disbelief.  Like I said, I really appreciate that there has been thought given to things like this, someone took the time to figure it all out and write it down, and that it's all there for us to puzzle through and absorb.  Thank you very much for pulling it together and sharing it, this is fun stuff. 

One reason I enjoy doing these translations so much... Macross's tech is surprisingly well thought-out most of the time.  They put considerable effort into making most things seem fairly plausible.

 

1 hour ago, guyxxed said:

(And, as an engineer who can't let things go, I started doing some calculations on just how much acceleration you would need on those few milliliters of fuel to impart the kick we observe to an 18m long fighter plane, and...well, it's very big numbers.  Significant fractions of c.  Wild).

Like any jet engine, Macross's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines generate thrust from the thermal expansion of a high-pressure fluid heated inside the engine.

The plasma from the thermonuclear reactor is a heat source, not a thrust source.

In atmosphere, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses the plasma from the compact thermonuclear reactor to flash-heat the highly-compressed air the superconducting ram-air pre-compressor and compressor fans are pushing into the engine.  

In the vacuum of space, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine has no air flowing into it to generate thrust with... so it switches over to operating like a nuclear thermal rocket instead.  Propellant sourced from internal (or external) tanks elsewhere in the airframe is directly injected into the thrust increase section of the turbine where the plasma flow is.  The propellant, which is stored as a cryogenic liquid or slush, is flash-heated to a high temperature by the super-hot plasma and expands explosively out the engine nozzle.  That limited internal supply of propellant is the main reason that early models of VF were dependent on FAST Packs for extended operations in space.

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One reason I enjoy doing these translations so much... Macross's tech is surprisingly well thought-out most of the time.  They put considerable effort into making most things seem fairly plausible.

 

Like any jet engine, Macross's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines generate thrust from the thermal expansion of a high-pressure fluid heated inside the engine.

The plasma from the thermonuclear reactor is a heat source, not a thrust source.

In atmosphere, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses the plasma from the compact thermonuclear reactor to flash-heat the highly-compressed air the superconducting ram-air pre-compressor and compressor fans are pushing into the engine.  

In the vacuum of space, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine has no air flowing into it to generate thrust with... so it switches over to operating like a nuclear thermal rocket instead.  Propellant sourced from internal (or external) tanks elsewhere in the airframe is directly injected into the thrust increase section of the turbine where the plasma flow is.  The propellant, which is stored as a cryogenic liquid or slush, is flash-heated to a high temperature by the super-hot plasma and expands explosively out the engine nozzle.  That limited internal supply of propellant is the main reason that early models of VF were dependent on FAST Packs for extended operations in space.

That makes me wonder...

Spoiler

What kind of fuel use we'd see if a VF had a system like the inertial control system the Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit had?

(Probably find valk bits and pilot bits all over the place!)

 

[Master Dex]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

That makes me wonder...

  Hide contents

What kind of fuel use we'd see if a VF had a system like the inertial control system the Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit had?

(Probably find valk bits and pilot bits all over the place!)

 

Well... That's what all 5th Gen VFs have, so we know exactly what that looks like. It actually avoids causing bits because pilots can survive higher G-loads.

Technically the YF-21 and VF-22 had the tech from the Q-Rau but it was limited. 5th Gen like the VF-25 and up all have the Inertia Store Converter powered by fold quartz. I'll leave it to Seto to get into the technicals because he'll do it anyway regardless of what I say lol. Plus he has that information on hand and I don't.

[pengbuzz]

4 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Well... That's what all 5th Gen VFs have, so we know exactly what that looks like. It actually avoids causing bits because pilots can survive higher G-loads.

Technically the YF-21 and VF-22 had the tech from the Q-Rau but it was limited. 5th Gen like the VF-25 and up all have the Inertia Store Converter powered by fold quartz. I'll leave it to Seto to get into the technicals because he'll do it anyway regardless of what I say lol. Plus he has that information on hand and I don't.

Ah; for some reason, I missed that detail!! Thanks for filling me in on that!

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

That makes me wonder...

  Hide contents

What kind of fuel use we'd see if a VF had a system like the inertial control system the Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit had?

(Probably find valk bits and pilot bits all over the place!)

 

I don't think the use of an Inertia Vector Control System would meaningfully affect the choice of fuel for the thermonuclear reactor or propellant for space flight.

It would enable the VF to make more efficient use of whatever propellant it was carrying and to accelerate and decelerate more forcefully.  This could potentially cause the VF to exceed the g-force tolerance of the pilot's body and/or the design limits of the aircraft itself, though the IVCS does partially shield the aircraft from this while in operation.

The YF-21 and VF-22 both successfully adopted the technology, though the difficulty of its manufacture was a signfiicant limiting factor in the ability to mass produce the aircraft itself.  (If you take Master File at face value, the IVCS was one of several systems that forced the YF-21/VF-22 to adopt a specially designed engine with more generator output to support those systems, increasing initial and operating costs and decreasing engine lifespan.)

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

Well... That's what all 5th Gen VFs have, so we know exactly what that looks like. It actually avoids causing bits because pilots can survive higher G-loads.

Technically the YF-21 and VF-22 had the tech from the Q-Rau but it was limited. 5th Gen like the VF-25 and up all have the Inertia Store Converter powered by fold quartz. I'll leave it to Seto to get into the technicals because he'll do it anyway regardless of what I say lol. Plus he has that information on hand and I don't.

The Quimeliquola Inertia Vector Control System is a bit different from the Inertia Store Converter.

The Queadluun-series battle suits and the 4th Gen YF-21 and VF-22 had the Inertia Vector Control System, a particularly complicated bit of Protoculture technology which could manipulate the magnitude of acceleration vectors.  Basically, it could amplify or shrink any directional force pushing on the aircraft, from the thrust of its engines and verniers to aerodynamic pressures and even recoil.  As a side effect of its operation, it shielded the interior of the aircraft from the changes in the magnitude of acceleration forces that its operation created.  (So if the pilot's accelerating at 7G and the IVCS is boosting that to, say, 25G, the pilot's only feeling the 7G.)  The female Zentradi/Meltrandi are able to get the most out of the system because they also use a specially-engineered g-hardened pilot who can withstand higher g-loads.

The Inertia Store Converter is a rather different device.  Instead of manipulating the magnitude of acceleration vectors to boost the performance of engines and verniers, it uses more advanced applications of gravity control to temporarily displace acceleration forces on the aircraft itself into higher dimensions.  The aircraft has to generate the full force needed for those accelerations, meaning it doesn't get the propellant efficiency benefits, but it can largely shield itself and its operator from the g-forces incurred by pushing the energy into higher dimensions for a bit and then slowly returning that energy to the aircraft a little bit at a time over a longer period so that it never exceeds safe levels.

I guess I'm nothing if not predictable. 🤣

Edited March 30 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't think the use of an Inertia Vector Control System would meaningfully affect the choice of fuel for the thermonuclear reactor or propellant for space flight.

It would enable the VF to make more efficient use of whatever propellant it was carrying and to accelerate and decelerate more forcefully.  This could potentially cause the VF to exceed the g-force tolerance of the pilot's body and/or the design limits of the aircraft itself, though the IVCS does partially shield the aircraft from this while in operation.

The YF-21 and VF-22 both successfully adopted the technology, though the difficulty of its manufacture was a signfiicant limiting factor in the ability to mass produce the aircraft itself.  (If you take Master File at face value, the IVCS was one of several systems that forced the YF-21/VF-22 to adopt a specially designed engine with more generator output to support those systems, increasing initial and operating costs and decreasing engine lifespan.)

Thanks; increased efficiency was something I was wondering about. I figured if software could throttle the system so the g's it produced did not exceed craft limits (If I understand correctly). This is a bit of research for the project.

 

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Quimeliquola Inertia Vector Control System is a bit different from the Inertia Store Converter.

The Queadluun-series battle suits and the 4th Gen YF-21 and VF-22 had the Inertia Vector Control System, a particularly complicated bit of Protoculture technology which could manipulate the magnitude of acceleration vectors.  Basically, it could amplify or shrink any directional force pushing on the aircraft, from the thrust of its engines and verniers to aerodynamic pressures and even recoil.  As a side effect of its operation, it shielded the interior of the aircraft from the changes in the magnitude of acceleration forces that its operation created.  (So if the pilot's accelerating at 7G and the IVCS is boosting that to, say, 25G, the pilot's only feeling the 7G.)  The female Zentradi/Meltrandi are able to get the most out of the system because they also use a specially-engineered g-hardened pilot who can withstand higher g-loads.

The Inertia Store Converter is a rather different device.  Instead of manipulating the magnitude of acceleration vectors to boost the performance of engines and verniers, it uses more advanced applications of gravity control to temporarily displace acceleration forces on the aircraft itself into higher dimensions.  The aircraft has to generate the full force needed for those accelerations, meaning it doesn't get the propellant efficiency benefits, but it can largely shield itself and its operator from the g-forces incurred by pushing the energy into higher dimensions for a bit and then slowly returning that energy to the aircraft a little bit at a time over a longer period so that it never exceeds safe levels.

So a craft would not need both systems; am I correct?

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I guess I'm nothing if not predictable. 🤣

Yup.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/30/2025 at 1:31 AM, pengbuzz said:

Thanks; increased efficiency was something I was wondering about. I figured if software could throttle the system so the g's it produced did not exceed craft limits (If I understand correctly). This is a bit of research for the project.

As we saw in Macross Plus, the YF-21/VF-22's integrated airframe control AI (which Master File calls ANGIRAS-BRAIN) is designed to limit the performance of the VF to what the pilot's body and the airframe can safely withstand.  Guld had to disable the limiter function in order to draw out the YF-21's full performance to defeat the Ghost X-9, which is why the YF-21 was able to maneuver at a level that caused him mortal injury.

Master File talks a bit about how Project Super Nova was kind of the "Now what?" moment for airframe control AI technology, since there was now a pressing need to have the system prevent the VF itself from hurting or killing the pilot.  That led to the development of the next-gen control AI "ARIEL" that was adopted on the YF-19-3 and later.  The IVCS section in the VF-22 Master File also talks about a limiter being put on the system's operation to prevent it from exceeding the aircraft's g-force design limits and some general limits imposed by its excessive power draw.

 

On 3/30/2025 at 1:31 AM, pengbuzz said:

So a craft would not need both systems; am I correct?

The ISC system seems to be the more advantageous of the two in terms of its effects on performance, though also the more difficult of the two to manufacture due to Humanity's inability to synthesize fold quartz with its present technology.

Whether one could even use both at the same time is unknown, but it would likely require a phenomenal amount of energy.

[TG Remix]

Inspired by PixelatedShinobi's MTL journey of Macross Frontier, I wanted to share a little on what I learned worldbuilding wise from Macross M3 out of curiosity.

 

Episode 1 and Episode 3 takes place in Neo York. Nothing really any noteworthy about the former, the mission is just taking out the Zentradi groups before they reach the supply base in New Alamaba (an ironic name for sure,) and the VF-4 that acts as the boss had it's data presumably be used for the Variable Glaug, Episode 3 however establishes the conflict between the planetary government and the rebel group New York Liberation League, which seems to be made up of both miclones and giants as you fight their VF-4s, VF-3000s (which is especially odd as a unit that wasn't really produced in a wide scale) and Gnerl fighter pods. The captain states there's a delicate balance between the two, and the VF-5000's development on the planet would seem to cause "unnecessary friction" between the two. Considering the VF-5000 was designed as a relatively simple to maintain VF to be built in low numbers, it'd make sense that it would've had its origins on a remote planet, compared to the YF-19 and YF-21's on the more prestigious Eden.

(Ironic how the Algencius' Captain's worry that the capture of the VF-5000 would signify the public opinion of a decline of military control which would affect the political power of Neo York's government, considering our little maverick Isamu Dyson did that in a much greater scale 2 decades later.)

 

Episode 2 takes place on Cristrania, which is a planet that was handed to Zentradi fundamentalists, and given autonomy even as a NUNS colony as early as 2018. It was described to be a natural planet for the development of life for Zentradi, so it's implied that it has a potential population of mostly, if not all of giants. Of course, the reason why it's the setting for that level is that some of them have made contact with anti-UN forces, specifically those who were stationed in the New Nile Factory base that was producing the Variable Glaug. Of course the local government denies this and is reluctant to have a military inspection take place, hence the Dancing Skull's covert operation and the eventual introduction of Moaramia as the pilot of the variable battle pod. Considering even as a child (presumably born the natural way and not cloned, though the last mission makes that a bit unclea) she was raised to believe that Zentradi only exists to fight, I'm wondering if that was something that the anti-UN forces stationed there taught her, or it's a ideology Cristrania itself culturally seem to have.

(Interesting how not only the one NUNS Zentradi colony that's not the poor Macross 5 fleet is not only heavily implied to be made to have a strict conservative-like ideology that willingly houses anti-UN activity, but is one or two letters away from the anarchist commune Christiania, but I digress...)

 

We really don't get much of planetary conflicts or development in the franchise in general, so even if this was just flavor text for the sake of spicing up the game, I appreciate M3 for giving different glimpses of life in the smaller colonies that aren't just the emigrant fleets all over the galaxy.

Edited Tuesday at 11:16 PM by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Episode 1 and Episode 3 takes place in Neo York. Nothing really any noteworthy about the former, the mission is just taking out the Zentradi groups before they reach the supply base in New Alamaba [...]

*space banjo intensifies*

 

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

[...] Episode 3 however establishes the conflict between the planetary government and the rebel group New York Liberation League, which seems to be made up of both miclones and giants as you fight their VF-4s, VF-3000s (which is especially odd as a unit that wasn't really produced in a wide scale) and Gnerl fighter pods.

It's an odd choice, to be sure... given that official materials also make the VF-3000 out to be a flawed prototype that was never produced on a large scale.

Master File does throw a nod to it, though, with the statement that a small number of VF-3000As were subsequently produced and used by adversary forces.

 

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The captain states there's a delicate balance between the two, and the VF-5000's development on the planet would seem to cause "unnecessary friction" between the two. Considering the VF-5000 was designed as a relatively simple to maintain VF to be built in low numbers, it'd make sense that it would've had its origins on a remote planet, compared to the YF-19 and YF-21's on the more prestigious Eden.

That is a little more odd.

The VF-5000 wasn't developed on Neo York.  It was the first (new) design to come out of the Shinsei Industry VF design headquarters on Earth after it was formed by merging the aerospace engineering divisions of Stonewell Bellcom and Shinnakasu Heavy Industry in 2012.  It was developed to be a comparatively inexpensive VF, but it was also intended to be a general-duty main VF with high production volumes.  It was a continuation/conclusion of Stonewell Bellcom's attempts to perfect the concept behind the VF-1 Valkyrie, which had previously brought about the VF-3000.

As far as we know, pretty much every new (non-enemy) model VF prior to the VF-25 was designed on Earth.  The Test Flight Center at Eden's New Edwards AFB is Earth's favorite proving ground for new VF designs (likely due to the unspoiled planetary conditions), but both Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy keep their VF design teams headquartered on Earth.

 

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

(Ironic how the Algencius' Captain's worry that the capture of the VF-5000 would signify the public opinion of a decline of military control which would affect the political power of Neo York's government, considering our little maverick Isamu Dyson did that in a much greater scale 2 decades later.)

A bit... though in the latter case, the New UN Forces were almost forced to save face because there was not way they could admit to the truth of what happened without it turning into an even bigger scandal.  There was no way they could admit the Sharon Apple system that went rogue was intended for military use, that said military AI system also used an illegal processor known for its tendency to go crazy, or that Isamu had stolen the YF-19 from the test flight center to spoil the Ghost X-9's debut by attacking it.  Isamu provided the military with a relatively easy way out that also happened to make it politically difficult to punish him for the crimes he committed.  (So he got an ironic reward instead, ending up promoted on a course towards a desk job, the thing he would hate most.)

There would be no way to pretty up the theft of the latest model VF by anti-government forces, which is why the Algencius's captain was worried.

[TG Remix]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Master File does throw a nod to it, though, with the statement that a small number of VF-3000As were subsequently produced and used by adversary forces.

A "small number" in the context of Macross can be very misleading considering how huge humanity's reach is through the galaxy lol. The VF-17's production was 718, and compared to the thousands of VF-1s and VF-4s, and MF's notion of several tens of thousands of VF-11s, that's a bit minuscule, but logical as a special forces VF with a steep learning curve to pilot.

 

It'd also seem the bomber-variant VF-3000B mentioned in Chronicle would have a better sell for more production numbers since it's bigger size could be to its advantage for that type of role.

 

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As far as we know, pretty much every new (non-enemy) model VF prior to the VF-25 was designed on Earth.  The Test Flight Center at Eden's New Edwards AFB is Earth's favorite proving ground for new VF designs (likely due to the unspoiled planetary conditions), but both Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy keep their VF design teams headquartered on Earth.

Could be a case where the (or even a) VF-5000 was only tested on Neo York as opposed to being built there. In this game alone there's a later mission where either of the three characters can pilot the YF-11 for some live combat testing (And with Mission 7 it almost reads as a publicity stunt, more on that in some time,) and in some sources it describes there being more then one YF-19 and YF-21 for testing before and after the events of Plus, so it's not impossible that a frontier planet, probably with its own economical woes, was chosen for the inexpensive VF to spread its wings.

 

The planetary condition on Neo York is a bit interesting on that topic, since in the mission briefing the planet if seen from space makes it seem very green with regular clouds, not really a Class A planet like Eden and Vajra (which is still a funny name the Frontier fleet chose for the planet by Zettai Live,) but when you fight the New York Liberation League from the mesosphere, it's a more standard blue. Maybe just simple miscommunication between the art direction?

 

On 3/31/2025 at 1:58 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

The ISC system seems to be the more advantageous of the two in terms of its effects on performance, though also the more difficult of the two to manufacture due to Humanity's inability to synthesize fold quartz with its present technology.

Whether one could even use both at the same time is unknown, but it would likely require a phenomenal amount of energy.

Makes me wonder if things like the VF-22 and Queadluun-Rhea that uses VCS could be swapped with the ISC to lessen manufacturing costs while still keeping their performance (I'd mention the Feios Valkyrie, but those things pop up once in every 2 lunar eclipses.) A part of me wonders if the Variable Glaug and Neo Glaug were built with the former in mind as well, since both M3 and The Ride mentions that they were designed based on feedback from a Zentradi's physical functions; especially so since Moaramia was allowed to be captured since she and her "sisters" that serve as the final boss were born with experimental bodies to analyze their own physical factors using Earth technology. As VCS was a Protoculture thing it seems like whatever the Variable Glaug was using seemed to be some type of reverse engineering attempt to do that with the available technology they had.

Edited Thursday at 02:37 PM by TG Remix

[pengbuzz]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

*space banjo intensifies*

 

It's an odd choice, to be sure... given that official materials also make the VF-3000 out to be a flawed prototype that was never produced on a large scale.

Master File does throw a nod to it, though, with the statement that a small number of VF-3000As were subsequently produced and used by adversary forces.

Seto, did they say what was flawed about the VF-3000? It does seem odd to me that IRL, they decided to go with the VF-11 rather than the 3000, so maybe that was an in-story justification?

(Admittedly, I like the design for the VF-3000 better than the VBF-11).

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

A "small number" in the context of Macross can be very misleading considering how huge humanity's reach is through the galaxy lol. The VF-17's production was 718, and compared to the thousands of VF-1s and VF-4s, and MF's notion of several tens of thousands of VF-11s, that's a bit minuscule, but logical as a special forces VF with a steep learning curve to pilot.

It can be... it depends on the period and the context.  The timeframe and model we're talking about - the VF-3000 in the late 2010s - is very much a "small batch" situation where very low double digit or high single digit numbers are on the table.  Especially given that the VF-3000 never entered actual production anywhere and the handful of units that the military got were purely for evaluation purposes.  This is twenty years before the VF-17 and still more than a decade before the ramp-up of emigration that supported the VF-11's huge production volume.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It'd also seem the bomber-variant VF-3000B mentioned in Chronicle would have a better sell for more production numbers since it's bigger size could be to its advantage for that type of role.

It's not really any bigger than the VF-3000, it just has a slightly longer nose... and the VF-3000 as a whole was designed with fighter-bomber capability in mind.

They had other options on the table too, like the actual VB series that kicked off around that time.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Could be a case where the (or even a) VF-5000 was only tested on Neo York as opposed to being built there.

IIRC, in Macross M3 that's more or less explicitly the case... the Dancing Skulls are there to escort the Algenicus and oversee testing of the VF-5000.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

In this game alone there's a later mission where either of the three characters can pilot the YF-11 for some live combat testing (And with Mission 7 it almost reads as a publicity stunt, more on that in some time,) and in some sources it describes there being more then one YF-19 and YF-21 for testing before and after the events of Plus, so it's not impossible that a frontier planet, probably with its own economical woes, was chosen for the inexpensive VF to spread its wings.

There's actually even multiple YF-11s on the Algenicus at the time.  Max and Milia's input is said to have been critical for selecting the canard version of the design for production.

Macross Plus itself directly acknowledges that there are multiple prototypes of both the YF-19 and YF-21.  The units under active test in the OVA/Movie are the No.2 prototypes of their respective designs.  Some official artbooks for the OVA and movie also talk about and even show pictures of the No.1 prototypes that preceded them.  Official media usually lists three, sometimes four, YF-19 prototypes that were used for testing before the VF-19A was approved for production.  Master File includes those four in its version, and adds a second group of four.  Official media typically stops numbering YF-21 prototypes after No.2, and doesn't properly describe any YF-22s.  Master File does.

Spoiler

The three/four official YF-19s are:

• YF-19-1, which was destroyed during its second test flight which also resulted in the loss of life of the test pilot.
• YF-19-2, the prototype we see in Macross Plus, which was freshly returned from being repaired after a crash.
• YF-19-3, a unit nicknamed "Bird of Prey" (yes, after Star Trek) which was used for structural testing.  
• YF-19-4, a unit used to evaluate flight characteristics and tune the aircraft's control AI, nicknamed "Double Nuts" due to its test pilot being a descendant of the VF-0's.

Master File changes the identities of 3 and 4 and adds four more:

• YF-19-3, the initial ARIEL system testbed aircraft, whihc was destroyed in a testing accident.
• YF-19-4, a color-reversed version of the official YF-19-3 "Bird of Prey" that was used for mission suitability testing alongside units 5 and 6 and was used for the VF-19A rollout demonstration after upgrade.
• YF-19-5, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-6, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-7, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)
• YF-19-8, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)

Master File also explains, for the YF-21, that after the loss of YF-21-2 during the Sharon Apple incident the redesigned YF-21 prototype with the BDI scaled back to being a support system was redesignated YF-22-1 and that two more prototypes were used (YF-22-2 and YF-22-3) before the final design was frozen.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The planetary condition on Neo York is a bit interesting on that topic, since in the mission briefing the planet if seen from space makes it seem very green with regular clouds, not really a Class A planet like Eden and Vajra (which is still a funny name the Frontier fleet chose for the planet by Zettai Live,) but when you fight the New York Liberation League from the mesosphere, it's a more standard blue. Maybe just simple miscommunication between the art direction?

Maybe just the limitations of the system at the time... the Sega Dreamcast was not the most powerful console out there even in its heyday, and it took some real engine magic to actually do highly detailed background textures with a sense of depth to them like in Eternal Arcadia.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Makes me wonder if things like the VF-22 and Queadluun-Rhea that uses VCS could be swapped with the ISC to lessen manufacturing costs while still keeping their performance (I'd mention the Feios Valkyrie, but those things pop up once in every 2 lunar eclipses.) A part of me wonders if the Variable Glaug and Neo Glaug were built with the former in mind as well, since both M3 and The Ride mentions that they were designed based on feedback from a Zentradi's physical functions; especially so since Moaramia was allowed to be captured since she and her "sisters" that serve as the final boss were born with experimental bodies to analyze their own physical factors using Earth technology. As VCS was a Protoculture thing it seems like whatever the Variable Glaug was using seemed to be some type of reverse engineering attempt to do that with the available technology they had.

Hm... I'm not sure that would reduce manufacturing costs, due to material requirements.

As far as we know, the Inertia Vector Control System uses a very high-purity fold carbon core that is very difficult for even factory satellites to produce in large quantities where the Inertia Store Converter has a fold quartz core that cannot be synthesized with present technology and is subject to restrictions on mining and trade in fold quartz.  

The initial-type Variable Glaug was modeled on the VF-4 and the Glaug battle pod, neither of which had an inertia control system like that, so I'd assume it was not a factor in that design.  The Neo Glaug was originally intended as an unmanned fighter, which has no reason to care about protecting the fleshy meats it wouldn't be carrying.  The Neo Glaug bis might benefit from it, as it's a manned derivative of the Neo Glaug with all the performance that implies as a high-end 4th Generation VF design, but the only pilots we ever see in them are fairly elite and might not need the help.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Seto, did they say what was flawed about the VF-3000? It does seem odd to me that IRL, they decided to go with the VF-11 rather than the 3000, so maybe that was an in-story justification?

(Admittedly, I like the design for the VF-3000 better than the VBF-11).

Older explanations for the VF-3000's very limited presence attributed it to issues in the design caused by simply scaling up the VF-1's airframe.  This supposedly gave its joints a tendency to slip.

Newer explanations of the VF-3000's rarity follow the same explanation that Master File adopts.  Namely, that the VF-3000 was developed internally at Stonewell Bellcom after the war as a sort of internal rival/alternative to the VF-4 as a VF-1 successor aircraft that the company ultimately dropped of its own volition when it became clear that the VF-4 would become the next main fighter with just a few test aircraft produced.

The VF-11 came about a decade later, as a successor to the VF-4 and VF-5000.

[Graham]

With all this discussion about Macross M3, I'd like to ask is there any new information on the giant insectoid biological weapons that appear in the game?

After Macross Frontier was released, I've always wondered if the insectoid biological weapons in M3 were in anyway related to or developed from the Vajra.

[TG Remix]

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IIRC, in Macross M3 that's more or less explicitly the case... the Dancing Skulls are there to escort the Algenicus and oversee testing of the VF-5000.

It's more specifically the Dancing Skulls escorting the VF-5000 to the Algenicus itself so further testing could be done without a anti-UN group taking the opportunity to "acquire" it for itself.

 

Spoiler

The three/four official YF-19s are:

• YF-19-1, which was destroyed during its second test flight which also resulted in the loss of life of the test pilot.
• YF-19-2, the prototype we see in Macross Plus, which was freshly returned from being repaired after a crash.
• YF-19-3, a unit nicknamed "Bird of Prey" (yes, after Star Trek) which was used for structural testing.  
• YF-19-4, a unit used to evaluate flight characteristics and tune the aircraft's control AI, nicknamed "Double Nuts" due to its test pilot being a descendant of the VF-0's.

Master File changes the identities of 3 and 4 and adds four more:

• YF-19-3, the initial ARIEL system testbed aircraft, whihc was destroyed in a testing accident.
• YF-19-4, a color-reversed version of the official YF-19-3 "Bird of Prey" that was used for mission suitability testing alongside units 5 and 6 and was used for the VF-19A rollout demonstration after upgrade.
• YF-19-5, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-6, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-7, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)
• YF-19-8, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)

Master File also explains, for the YF-21, that after the loss of YF-21-2 during the Sharon Apple incident the redesigned YF-21 prototype with the BDI scaled back to being a support system was redesignated YF-22-1 and that two more prototypes were used (YF-22-2 and YF-22-3) before the final design was frozen.

I'm assuming after unit 2 I think New Edwards had enough of Isamu testing and galivanting away with their delicate machines and probably was one of the people directly involved in his "promotion," lol.

 

2 hours ago, Graham said:

With all this discussion about Macross M3, I'd like to ask is there any new information on the giant insectoid biological weapons that appear in the game?

After Macross Frontier was released, I've always wondered if the insectoid biological weapons in M3 were in anyway related to or developed from the Vajra.

Nothing official at least, although going through Mission 4 was quite a treat going through the absurdness of it all.

The research on the biological weapon project took place in New Asia, where it's said to hold ruins of a Protoculture-era civilization, apparently they seem to be spread out throughout the planet, so much so that the project's facilities not only took the shape of these ruins, but they were even camouflaged as sphinxes. Why Protoculture ruins look a lot closer to ancient Egypt ruins in a planet called New Asia of all things I'm not sure, but there's a place called New Alabama in a place called Neo York, so who am I to judge. There was very little military involvement with the project except for the periodic investigation reports, but of course this backfired when a biohazard outbreak wiped out the entire staff.

Considering there's ancient ruins tied to this and Protoculture revered the Vajra, I can see someone like Frontier novelization and 30's author Ukyō Kodachi connecting the two together for continuities sake. Although they don't look all that much the same, the Vajra are giant monster bugs with folding capabilities and cannons attached to them, while the New Asia biological weapons are more giant flies that had the scale tool used on them.

Edited Friday at 02:24 PM by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The three/four official YF-19s are:

• YF-19-1, which was destroyed during its second test flight which also resulted in the loss of life of the test pilot.
• YF-19-2, the prototype we see in Macross Plus, which was freshly returned from being repaired after a crash.
• YF-19-3, a unit nicknamed "Bird of Prey" (yes, after Star Trek) which was used for structural testing.  
• YF-19-4, a unit used to evaluate flight characteristics and tune the aircraft's control AI, nicknamed "Double Nuts" due to its test pilot being a descendant of the VF-0's.

Master File changes the identities of 3 and 4 and adds four more:

• YF-19-3, the initial ARIEL system testbed aircraft, whihc was destroyed in a testing accident.
• YF-19-4, a color-reversed version of the official YF-19-3 "Bird of Prey" that was used for mission suitability testing alongside units 5 and 6 and was used for the VF-19A rollout demonstration after upgrade.
• YF-19-5, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-6, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-7, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)
• YF-19-8, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)

Master File also explains, for the YF-21, that after the loss of YF-21-2 during the Sharon Apple incident the redesigned YF-21 prototype with the BDI scaled back to being a support system was redesignated YF-22-1 and that two more prototypes were used (YF-22-2 and YF-22-3) before the final design was frozen.

I'm assuming after unit 2 I think New Edwards had enough of Isamu testing and galivanting away with their delicate machines and probably was one of the people directly involved in his "promotion," lol.

Apparently not, given that the New UN Forces and Shinsei Industry brought him back to demonstrate the YF-24 Evolution in 2057.  

Someone somewhere at New Edwards TFC said "We need an absolute mad lad to demonstrate this latest bonkers thing Shinsei built." and someone else, probably someone who had a LOT of Isamu-induced grey hair, said "I know a guy."

All things considered, Isamu's discipline problems aside he was basically the guy who won Project Super Nova for Shinsei with an incomplete and dangerous prototype.  On its own, that does kind of explain why Shinsei Industry was so willing to tolerate his subsequent shenanigans.

 

[PixelatedShinobi]

13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Apparently not, given that the New UN Forces and Shinsei Industry brought him back to demonstrate the YF-24 Evolution in 2057.  

Someone somewhere at New Edwards TFC said "We need an absolute mad lad to demonstrate this latest bonkers thing Shinsei built." and someone else, probably someone who had a LOT of Isamu-induced grey hair, said "I know a guy."

All things considered, Isamu's discipline problems aside he was basically the guy who won Project Super Nova for Shinsei with an incomplete and dangerous prototype.  On its own, that does kind of explain why Shinsei Industry was so willing to tolerate his subsequent shenanigans.

 

In 2080 they will ask "hey, should we switch to drones?" and an aging, mid-60s Isamu will show up and do the exact same thing for the third time. You cannot put the man down.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Graham said:

With all this discussion about Macross M3, I'd like to ask is there any new information on the giant insectoid biological weapons that appear in the game?

After Macross Frontier was released, I've always wondered if the insectoid biological weapons in M3 were in anyway related to or developed from the Vajra.

Macross M3 Episode 4 "Black Celebration" takes place about 18 years before Humanity became first aware of the Vajra's existence.

As such, the answer is almost certainly "No".

The mission briefing presents the insectoid biological weapons as something the military developed independently at their New Asia biological weapons lab in Area V672.  The clear implication in the briefing is that the military set up the camouflaged laboratory in Area V672 on New Asia because the biological weapons R&D the facility was built for is quite thoroughly illegal.  (Macross Delta would later confirm that yes, genetic engineering to create living weapons/clone soldiers is very much banned by interstellar law.)  The whole mission is pitched as a highly classified face-saving coverup, as the incident would otherwise result in a large number of senior officers having to resign in disgrace.

 

[pengbuzz]

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Apparently not, given that the New UN Forces and Shinsei Industry brought him back to demonstrate the YF-24 Evolution in 2057.  

Someone somewhere at New Edwards TFC said "We need an absolute mad lad to demonstrate this latest bonkers thing Shinsei built." and someone else, probably someone who had a LOT of Isamu-induced grey hair, said "I know a guy."

Probably the same someone who has his pension hostage, right?

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All things considered, Isamu's discipline problems aside he was basically the guy who won Project Super Nova for Shinsei with an incomplete and dangerous prototype.  On its own, that does kind of explain why Shinsei Industry was so willing to tolerate his subsequent shenanigans.

And who survived the incident that sent the Ghost back to the drawing board.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, PixelatedShinobi said:

Okay, here's one of my absolute biggest mechanical questions - the introduction of (as far as I'm aware) novel exclusive Ghost variant - the AIF-9S. It says "AIF-9S" in the Japanese text explicitly, so this isn't a MTL slipup or something.

[...]

Officially, both the Frontier forces and the SMS are established to use the QF-4000/AIF-7S Ghost, while the Galaxy uses the AIF-9V. The AIF-9B from VF-X2 (an identical airframe recreation of the X-9) shows up in 30 and its respective novelization. So what the hell is a "Ghost 9S" doing as a mass production aircraft for the Frontier NUNS? My only guess is that this is essentially just a creative miscommunication - earlier, the 7S was planned to be called the 9S in reference to the X-9 and to match with the 9B. Other than that? I got nothing.

Copying this over from the MTL thread... 

One of the little details that Frontier got "wrong" - or rather an inconsistency it created - is the designations of unmanned fighters.  It's an incredibly trivial thing to get annoyed over, so you bet my profoundly pedantic arse is irritated by it. 🤣

Both the pre-war Earth UN Forces and the post-war New UN Forces cribbed their hull symbol system and their classification systems for aircraft, missiles, etc. from the US tri-service system.  It's not a particularly surprising outcome, given Japan's strategic position as a US ally, the choice of an American fighter as the basis of the VF-1, and the main countries behind OTEC and the early Unification Government being mainly the US and its allies.  Anyway, the Ghosts used during the Unification Wars, the First Space War, and afterwards are all designated QF as you'd expect the military to designate an unmanned fighter.  We have the QF-2200 and the QF-3000 series.  Very old lore mentions that the developers are working on a QF-5000 to replace the QF-3000E eventually (this is from '84).  

It wasn't until after General Galaxy was formed from the merger of OTEC and various other defense companies and Ghost production resumed under their banner that we start seeing AIF numbers.  Those AIF numbers are explicitly General Galaxy's internal product code for the Ghost, with the first mentioned being AIF-3Ex as the designation for their improved version of the QF-3000E designated QF-3100EX.  When General Galaxy and the Macross Concern developed next-generation unmanned fighter concepts, we got the (AIF-)X-9 Ghostbird prototype.  Macross Galaxy's corporate army developed that into the AIF-9V after equipping it with anti-Vajra equipment, while the Frontier fleet used two different versions of it under the names AIF-7S and QF-4000.  The problem is that the designations are backwards.  The civilian PMC should be referring to their Ghosts using manufacturer model numbers (AIF-7) while the military should be using the military QF designation.  

In the Macross Frontier drama CDs, LAI is developing a next-generation Ghost with the company internal designation AIF-X-8S, while in the movies Macross Galaxy's corporate army's operating a non-clandestine unmanned fighter with the designation QF-5100.

So the Frontier situation's this weird one-off error where the designation usage is reversed... 

 

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Probably the same someone who has his pension hostage, right?

Yeah, it's probably Dr. Neumann.🤣

 

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

And who survived the incident that sent the Ghost back to the drawing board.

Not so much back to the drawing board, since the actual X-9 design ended up being produced just without the autonomous AI.

It just kind of put the New UN Forces and New UN Gov't in the position of asking themselves "Wait, some of us are old enough to have seen Terminator, right?" and curtail the use of autonomous AI as a dangerously immature technology.

[TG Remix]

Going back to finish up my findings for M3, because there's not much to talk about worldbuilding wise.

 

Episode 6 has the level take place in Planet Dahan, a resource planet which from its illustration looked like it only has 5 Namekian minutes left. But it seems important enough that if the terrorist group "Struggle" (made out of Zentradi defectors of course,) invaded the planet and destroyed the energy satellite system, the United Forces would have a energy deficit of 5% a year, severing limiting fleet operations. I'm not sure if we know more planets like those in the bigger franchise, the only exception being the coal mine in Planet Banipal Isamu was threatened with in Plus, and the remote planet from The Galaxy Is Calling Me with its Barunasium Ore.

 

Episode 5 and 8 has its setting on Planet Susia, it's described to have volcanic activity, and in the former's case it proves to be a problem where UN had to locate their Weapons Development plant there somewhere else due to it getting higher than usual. I'd question why you'd have one on a planet that's characterized by such, but once I saw it was essentially a giant mobile platform traversing through the Scarlet Desert, it made a tad bit more sense. The 8th and final one didn't make it clear if a civilian population is on there, just that there's a UN Spacy headquarters that Iron Discipline (ANOTHER guerilla Zentradi group, you think they'd just combine them all into one instead of having them be almost entirely unconnected) targets, after being the threat in Episode 5. The biggest takeaway is the previously mentioned "sisters" of Moaramia being the attackers specifically, of course that and the reveal that...

Spoiler

 the UN was essentially keeping Moa captive in the Algencius as a test subject as she was also born/created, (it's never made clear,) with a experimental body for Iron Discipline to analyze their own Zentradi body factors being the final central conflict of M3's story. Unfortunately for poor Moa, Max, and Milia, they are given explicit orders that capturing them isn't necessary and to shoot them down...

 

Episode 7 is the most outstanding one in terms of worldbuilding. For the mission where all three Dancing Skulls members reunite, the stage that sets on Planet Belfan is the most dire, as Lawrence Junkemar, a deputy consultant of the UN, was kidnapped when he visited the planet by anti-UN insurgents who took over the UN's secret base there. Negotiations seemed fruitless as it was seen as impossible to free the political prisoners, with the Algencius' Captain remarking that an autonomous and independent government in Belfan as an impossibility. With Neo York's New York Liberation League, and Cristrania's Zentradi fundamentalists with notable Anti-UN activity being hidden from the central government, and the final plot with Moa being the focus, it's interesting how as a semi-prequel to VF-X2's conflict between the central Earth government and colonial planets and emigrant fleets, showing the cracks and gears spinning of Earth's practical but very flawed ideology of having full control over their sphere to make sure future threats won't happen again.

 

And as I said I'd mention before, the reason why Max and Milia, was brought back for this mission, despite being the captain of the stealth cruiser Haruna and the director of the Eagle Nest Air Combat Center respectively, was that apparently some radical members of the regular army stationed at Belfan proposed an incursion to wipe out the enemy forces in the base, but as high command was very doubtful about their efficiency due to their inexperience, they wanted the Dancing Skull squad to preempt the regular army's arrival so the moderate Belfan faction wouldn't have to poke the bear with the hardline/radicals. And since this is the mission where you can pilot the brand new YF-11 prototype, it really reads as a publicity stunt for the sake of central UN morale if anything else, adding on to the conflict that accumulates with Latence around 2 decades after.

 

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The clear implication in the briefing is that the military set up the camouflaged laboratory in Area V672 on New Asia because the biological weapons R&D the facility was built for is quite thoroughly illegal.  (Macross Delta would later confirm that yes, genetic engineering to create living weapons/clone soldiers is very much banned by interstellar law.)  The whole mission is pitched as a highly classified face-saving coverup, as the incident would otherwise result in a large number of senior officers having to resign in disgrace.

It was to the point that the high command wanted the entire site wiped out, but opted to have a covert mission taken care of because a large scale offensive would reveal its existence to the public. Maybe that's how Mikumo later on was able to go under the radar even after the reveal.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It wasn't until after General Galaxy was formed from the merger of OTEC and various other defense companies and Ghost production resumed under their banner that we start seeing AIF numbers.  Those AIF numbers are explicitly General Galaxy's internal product code for the Ghost, with the first mentioned being AIF-3Ex as the designation for their improved version of the QF-3000E designated QF-3100EX.  When General Galaxy and the Macross Concern developed next-generation unmanned fighter concepts, we got the (AIF-)X-9 Ghostbird prototype.  Macross Galaxy's corporate army developed that into the AIF-9V after equipping it with anti-Vajra equipment, while the Frontier fleet used two different versions of it under the names AIF-7S and QF-4000.  The problem is that the designations are backwards.  The civilian PMC should be referring to their Ghosts using manufacturer model numbers (AIF-7) while the military should be using the military QF designation.

So that explains the two different designations, although I never heard of the AIF-3Ex/QF-3100EX until now! I'm assuming it's under a novelization or some kind of short story? Would also explain why the Neo Glaug bis was described to have electronic warfare functions that can have it control 2 QF-3000Es, something that's several decades behind alongside the VF-1!

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

But it seems important enough that if the terrorist group "Struggle" (made out of Zentradi defectors of course,) invaded the planet and destroyed the energy satellite system, the United Forces would have a energy deficit of 5% a year, severing limiting fleet operations.

An explanation which doesn't at all fit with the rest of the setting.

Nobody's out there using batteries powered by some high-gravity hellworld.  The New UN Forces ships, fighters, and other mecha are powered by thermonuclear reactors.  So are civilian spacecraft.  Conventional military and civilian vehicles are powered by hydrogen combustion engines for the most part, and EX-Gear scaled power suits run on fuel cells.  From what we see of emigrant planets, municipal energy grids seem to be primarily renewables with wind farms and solar panels on prominent display (presumably backed up with lossless OTM energy capacitors in place of chemical batteries for storage and probably backup power via thermonuclear reactor plants).  

It does not make sense if you think about it.

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'm not sure if we know more planets like those in the bigger franchise, the only exception being the coal mine in Planet Banipal Isamu was threatened with in Plus, and the remote planet from The Galaxy Is Calling Me with its Barunasium Ore.

Banipal's another one that doesn't really make sense in context.

Who needs something as primitive as fossil fuels when your civilization has cheap, clean, and ubiquitous ultra-high efficiency thermonuclear power and the technology to make renewables ultra-high efficiency with room temperature superconductors and lossless energy storage media?  

Unless it's not really coal as we know it, but fold carbon which is sometimes (rarely) called "fold coal".  Naturally occurring deposits of high purity fold carbon left over from a past supernova would be worth mining and have practical applications.  (It's implied this is also why Galactic Whales are hunted.)

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Episode 5 and 8 has its setting on Planet Susia, it's described to have volcanic activity, and in the former's case it proves to be a problem where UN had to locate their Weapons Development plant there somewhere else due to it getting higher than usual. I'd question why you'd have one on a planet that's characterized by such, but once I saw it was essentially a giant mobile platform traversing through the Scarlet Desert, it made a tad bit more sense.

Given the effort the New UN Forces clearly went to to put this weapons research facility in a hideously inaccessible and dangerous place, one has to suspect that it's probably up to something illegal too.

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Negotiations seemed fruitless as it was seen as impossible to free the political prisoners, with the Algencius' Captain remarking that an autonomous and independent government in Belfan as an impossibility. With Neo York's New York Liberation League, and Cristrania's Zentradi fundamentalists with notable Anti-UN activity being hidden from the central government, and the final plot with Moa being the focus, it's interesting how as a semi-prequel to VF-X2's conflict between the central Earth government and colonial planets and emigrant fleets, showing the cracks and gears spinning of Earth's practical but very flawed ideology of having full control over their sphere to make sure future threats won't happen again.

It makes sense, considering the circumstances these colonies were set up under.

After all, Humanity's grasp of fold technology was not exactly great at the time of the First Space War.  Low purity fold carbon and an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of space folding left Human-made fold systems somewhat less precise and capable than they would have liked.  Planets that were days or weeks or even months away from the Earth became a lot more accessible as Humanity's grasp of fold technology improved.  Fold navigation became more precise and efficient, and fold communications networks were built up across Humanity's sphere of influence to make communication faster and more reliable.  Trips that used to take weeks or months were cut to days or even hours.  The kind of seismic shift in communication and transportation that occurred with the invention of things like the telegraph or steam ships that made it way more possible for a central government to keep tabs on things.

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And since this is the mission where you can pilot the brand new YF-11 prototype, it really reads as a publicity stunt for the sake of central UN morale if anything else, adding on to the conflict that accumulates with Latence around 2 decades after.

Or, if you're the cynical type, an excuse to test the next main fighter prototype in live combat in a way that nobody will complain about "reckless endangerment" or "instigation".

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It was to the point that the high command wanted the entire site wiped out, but opted to have a covert mission taken care of because a large scale offensive would reveal its existence to the public. Maybe that's how Mikumo later on was able to go under the radar even after the reveal.

Mikumo's case was a bit different, since she was created not by the government but by a private corporation's illegal genetic laboratory.

Unfortunately, Macross Delta sweeps these implications under the rug along with several other unfortunate topics it notes and then glosses over like how Xaos's participation in the war is technically illegal.  I have a feeling the end result was probably something like the government insisting Mikumo be given all the same freedoms as any other sentient being protected by interstellar law.  (i.e. they can't treat her like a lab animal, force her to fight, etc. the way they were doing previously.)

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So that explains the two different designations, although I never heard of the AIF-3Ex/QF-3100EX until now! I'm assuming it's under a novelization or some kind of short story? Would also explain why the Neo Glaug bis was described to have electronic warfare functions that can have it control 2 QF-3000Es, something that's several decades behind alongside the VF-1!

The funny thing is that the Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet for unmanned fighters seems nearly as frustrated with it as I am, as it insistently refers to the military-use Ghosts of the Frontier era as QF-4000 series, not AIF-7 series.

There are a couple sources that've mentioned improved variants of the QF-3000... the EX type comes from a Master File book, which actually launches into an explanation of how the EX variant is a model intended for "export" (meaning deep space operations with emigrant fleets) and the distinctions between the AIF and QF numbering systems.  The Sky Angels QF-5000 is similar in that respect.

I'm still trying to find a source that actually calls the Ghosts in Macross VF-X2 "AIF-9B".  The one book I have that talks about them just calls them "Ghost", the same way that the in-game UI does.

WRT manned fighters controlling unmanned ones... it's implied that VFs with electronic warfare capabilities are able to do that, though the only ones explicitly mentioned as being able to do so are IIRC the RVF-171, YF-25, RVF-25, and VF-27.  (The VF-31 and Sv-262 are seemingly also able to command drones, though it is not clear if this requires any special equipment to control just two.  Master File implies the VF-31 can control a large number of unmanned fighters with special equipment added.)

Edited 16 hours ago by Seto Kaiba
Cleaned up a bit of language...