Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Interesting, and very helpful, thank you!  I think it still raises an issue, though, in that the thermonuclear reactor is, well, reacting to produce the plasma, and that plasma still needs to be exhausted even if the turbines aren't blasting it out, correct?  Maybe the transducers are so efficient that it can be radically throttled down when not actively flying and still have enough power to run the whole thing in a combat situation, but there will still be some super hot gases spewing out of the nozzles the whole time.  Only other option I can think of is that they have a way to close off the expansion chamber after the reactor and run off the "bottled" plasma for awhile, but that raises the problem of being able to flip a thermonuclear reactor on and off at will (maybe not too big an issue since it is fuel injected and gravity powered instead of needing neutron dampening).

I'm still having images of valkyries stomping around sandblasting everything within a dozen meters and setting things on fire wherever they go.  Entertaining, but not practical.  😉 

I think there are a couple reasons we don't see that happening.

First, the amount of plasma in the engine at any one time is actually quite small.  Official setting resources like Macross Chronicle describe OTM thermonuclear reactors like the ones found in a VF's engines as extremely high-efficiency due to the use of Gravity and Inertia Control systems for fuel compression and plasma confinement.  The reactors can run on less fuel, and run much hotter, than a modern/conventional fusion reactor that relies on lasers and electromagnets.  The system used in thermonuclear reaction turbines has such high efficiency that VFs are said to have effectively unlimited range in atmospheric flight due to using intake air as propellant.  A few sources say the VF-1 has enough internally-carried reactant to operate for up to 700 hours between refuelings, which means the amount of reactant consumed (and plasma produced) must be very small.

Master File gives some directional guidance as to how small.  Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie describes the VF-1 reactant storage as being a pair of 150 liter capacity slush tanks, one in each engine nacelle.  That suggests the fuel consumption rate in normal operation is a hair under 0.06ml/s, or about 214ml/hour.  In more visual terms, eight hours of continuous operation would consume a bit less than five soda cans worth of reactant per engine.  With such a small quantity of plasma inside the engine at any given time, the amount of exhaust is almost certainly trivial unless the turbine is actively generating thrust.

 

Second, the usage of the plasma varies depending on mode and engine demand.  The reason that many energy-intensive technologies like energy conversion armor and pinpoint barriers are not available in Fighter mode is because the heat from the plasma is also used to heat propellant (be it intake air or internally stored liquid) in order to produce thrust for flight.  The Fighter-mode VF is essentially "wasting" most of the energy-generation potential of that hot plasma in order to use it to generate more thrust.  Battroid mode is the opposite, prioritizing energy generation over thrust production and wringing every last bit of usable heat out of the GIC-confined plasma for that purpose.  By the time the plasma held in the engine for electricity generation purposes is released, it has cooled considerably and the relatively small quantity being released at any given time is unlikely to kick up any significant debris.  With just 0.06ml/s of reactant going into the engine, the volume of exhaust gas coming out is likely around 500-600ml/s... about the same as an average adult's normal exhalation.

[guyxxed]

Fair enough.  The engineer in me is still raising an eyebrow that you could get enough thrust out of that small an amount of reactant to move a multi-ton air/spacecraft at the speeds we see, but there are certainly crazier things to accept and at least there's a thought through rationale behind it.  Works for me, and thank you for pulling those together. I'm always a bit impressed at the depth of world building Macross has accumulated over the years, whether it's "official" or otherwise, it's all fun to read through. 

[Master Dex]

37 minutes ago, guyxxed said:

Fair enough.  The engineer in me is still raising an eyebrow that you could get enough thrust out of that small an amount of reactant to move a multi-ton air/spacecraft at the speeds we see, but there are certainly crazier things to accept and at least there's a thought through rationale behind it.  Works for me, and thank you for pulling those together. I'm always a bit impressed at the depth of world building Macross has accumulated over the years, whether it's "official" or otherwise, it's all fun to read through. 

As another engineer, an aerospace one even, I understand your disbelief. 

I think we have to consider just how efficient and hot this reaction is, it's more than we're imagining for sure. And like Seto said it's based on advanced alien tech we can't replicate with real world analogues. This is a classic unobtanium situation, in the literary sense. It's something that physics says is completely doable but the capability is entirely outside of reality as we know it, but not as they in the continuity know it. 

That's always my preferred kind of sci-fi tech, rather than technobabble that means nothing.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/27/2025 at 8:15 PM, guyxxed said:

Fair enough.  The engineer in me is still raising an eyebrow that you could get enough thrust out of that small an amount of reactant to move a multi-ton air/spacecraft at the speeds we see, but there are certainly crazier things to accept and at least there's a thought through rationale behind it.  Works for me, and thank you for pulling those together. I'm always a bit impressed at the depth of world building Macross has accumulated over the years, whether it's "official" or otherwise, it's all fun to read through. 

One engineer to another, the raised eyebrow is completely understandable.  We're talking about weird sci-fi futuretech after all.

That said, Masahiro Chiba is a one thorough guy because he anticipated this concern too and prepared an explanation as far back as the original VF-1 tech manual in '84.  

His explanation actually starts with an acknowledgement of exactly the problem you're pointing out.  The plasma coming out of the reactor may be several hundred megakelvin, but the small quantity moment-by-moment and the relatively short length of the engine means that the plasma would not be able to transfer enough heat to the propellant flows moving through it without some assistance.  That assistance comes in the form of the same Gravity and Inertia Control systems inside the engine body that prevent the plasma from contacting the engine interior.  The GIC systems essentially create a small pocket of super-intense artificial gravity inside the engine that compresses the propellant flows while also holding the plasma inside the engine for longer, allowing a more uniform and complete heat transfer to take place and increasing the exhaust velocity when the now-superheated propellant is released.

It's described as essentially using a GIC to simulate having a larger thrust increase/burner section.

This is a large part of why advances in thermonuclear reaction engine technology are generally attributed to improvements in GIC technology, in both official media and in Master File.  The more precise and powerful the GIC systems in the engine, the hotter the reactor can run and the greater the compression they can exert inside the engine to increase the propellant flow's pressure and temperature.

 

(And yes, Chiba-san is well aware this is bullsh*t sci-fi spacemagic futuretech... as a little joke, the computer controlling all this is literally named MAGIC.  The Matrix of Gravity and Inertia Control.)

[guyxxed]

Okay, that works for me (the acknowledgement by Chiba), and I'll happily go back to suspending my disbelief.  Like I said, I really appreciate that there has been thought given to things like this, someone took the time to figure it all out and write it down, and that it's all there for us to puzzle through and absorb.  Thank you very much for pulling it together and sharing it, this is fun stuff. 

(And, as an engineer who can't let things go, I started doing some calculations on just how much acceleration you would need on those few milliliters of fuel to impart the kick we observe to an 18m long fighter plane, and...well, it's very big numbers.  Significant fractions of c.  Wild).

[JB0]

2 hours ago, guyxxed said:

(And, as an engineer who can't let things go, I started doing some calculations on just how much acceleration you would need on those few milliliters of fuel to impart the kick we observe to an 18m long fighter plane, and...well, it's very big numbers.  Significant fractions of c.  Wild).

Those few milliliters of fuel aren't all that gets thrown out. It's like a jet engine, the fuel is being used to heat air and the superheated air is doing the work.

Except in space, where extra tanks of reaction mass are installed to replace the air.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, guyxxed said:

Okay, that works for me (the acknowledgement by Chiba), and I'll happily go back to suspending my disbelief.  Like I said, I really appreciate that there has been thought given to things like this, someone took the time to figure it all out and write it down, and that it's all there for us to puzzle through and absorb.  Thank you very much for pulling it together and sharing it, this is fun stuff. 

One reason I enjoy doing these translations so much... Macross's tech is surprisingly well thought-out most of the time.  They put considerable effort into making most things seem fairly plausible.

 

1 hour ago, guyxxed said:

(And, as an engineer who can't let things go, I started doing some calculations on just how much acceleration you would need on those few milliliters of fuel to impart the kick we observe to an 18m long fighter plane, and...well, it's very big numbers.  Significant fractions of c.  Wild).

Like any jet engine, Macross's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines generate thrust from the thermal expansion of a high-pressure fluid heated inside the engine.

The plasma from the thermonuclear reactor is a heat source, not a thrust source.

In atmosphere, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses the plasma from the compact thermonuclear reactor to flash-heat the highly-compressed air the superconducting ram-air pre-compressor and compressor fans are pushing into the engine.  

In the vacuum of space, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine has no air flowing into it to generate thrust with... so it switches over to operating like a nuclear thermal rocket instead.  Propellant sourced from internal (or external) tanks elsewhere in the airframe is directly injected into the thrust increase section of the turbine where the plasma flow is.  The propellant, which is stored as a cryogenic liquid or slush, is flash-heated to a high temperature by the super-hot plasma and expands explosively out the engine nozzle.  That limited internal supply of propellant is the main reason that early models of VF were dependent on FAST Packs for extended operations in space.

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One reason I enjoy doing these translations so much... Macross's tech is surprisingly well thought-out most of the time.  They put considerable effort into making most things seem fairly plausible.

 

Like any jet engine, Macross's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines generate thrust from the thermal expansion of a high-pressure fluid heated inside the engine.

The plasma from the thermonuclear reactor is a heat source, not a thrust source.

In atmosphere, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses the plasma from the compact thermonuclear reactor to flash-heat the highly-compressed air the superconducting ram-air pre-compressor and compressor fans are pushing into the engine.  

In the vacuum of space, the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine has no air flowing into it to generate thrust with... so it switches over to operating like a nuclear thermal rocket instead.  Propellant sourced from internal (or external) tanks elsewhere in the airframe is directly injected into the thrust increase section of the turbine where the plasma flow is.  The propellant, which is stored as a cryogenic liquid or slush, is flash-heated to a high temperature by the super-hot plasma and expands explosively out the engine nozzle.  That limited internal supply of propellant is the main reason that early models of VF were dependent on FAST Packs for extended operations in space.

That makes me wonder...

Spoiler

What kind of fuel use we'd see if a VF had a system like the inertial control system the Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit had?

(Probably find valk bits and pilot bits all over the place!)

 

[Master Dex]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

That makes me wonder...

  Hide contents

What kind of fuel use we'd see if a VF had a system like the inertial control system the Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit had?

(Probably find valk bits and pilot bits all over the place!)

 

Well... That's what all 5th Gen VFs have, so we know exactly what that looks like. It actually avoids causing bits because pilots can survive higher G-loads.

Technically the YF-21 and VF-22 had the tech from the Q-Rau but it was limited. 5th Gen like the VF-25 and up all have the Inertia Store Converter powered by fold quartz. I'll leave it to Seto to get into the technicals because he'll do it anyway regardless of what I say lol. Plus he has that information on hand and I don't.

[pengbuzz]

4 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Well... That's what all 5th Gen VFs have, so we know exactly what that looks like. It actually avoids causing bits because pilots can survive higher G-loads.

Technically the YF-21 and VF-22 had the tech from the Q-Rau but it was limited. 5th Gen like the VF-25 and up all have the Inertia Store Converter powered by fold quartz. I'll leave it to Seto to get into the technicals because he'll do it anyway regardless of what I say lol. Plus he has that information on hand and I don't.

Ah; for some reason, I missed that detail!! Thanks for filling me in on that!

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

That makes me wonder...

  Hide contents

What kind of fuel use we'd see if a VF had a system like the inertial control system the Queadluun-Rau Battle Suit had?

(Probably find valk bits and pilot bits all over the place!)

 

I don't think the use of an Inertia Vector Control System would meaningfully affect the choice of fuel for the thermonuclear reactor or propellant for space flight.

It would enable the VF to make more efficient use of whatever propellant it was carrying and to accelerate and decelerate more forcefully.  This could potentially cause the VF to exceed the g-force tolerance of the pilot's body and/or the design limits of the aircraft itself, though the IVCS does partially shield the aircraft from this while in operation.

The YF-21 and VF-22 both successfully adopted the technology, though the difficulty of its manufacture was a signfiicant limiting factor in the ability to mass produce the aircraft itself.  (If you take Master File at face value, the IVCS was one of several systems that forced the YF-21/VF-22 to adopt a specially designed engine with more generator output to support those systems, increasing initial and operating costs and decreasing engine lifespan.)

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

Well... That's what all 5th Gen VFs have, so we know exactly what that looks like. It actually avoids causing bits because pilots can survive higher G-loads.

Technically the YF-21 and VF-22 had the tech from the Q-Rau but it was limited. 5th Gen like the VF-25 and up all have the Inertia Store Converter powered by fold quartz. I'll leave it to Seto to get into the technicals because he'll do it anyway regardless of what I say lol. Plus he has that information on hand and I don't.

The Quimeliquola Inertia Vector Control System is a bit different from the Inertia Store Converter.

The Queadluun-series battle suits and the 4th Gen YF-21 and VF-22 had the Inertia Vector Control System, a particularly complicated bit of Protoculture technology which could manipulate the magnitude of acceleration vectors.  Basically, it could amplify or shrink any directional force pushing on the aircraft, from the thrust of its engines and verniers to aerodynamic pressures and even recoil.  As a side effect of its operation, it shielded the interior of the aircraft from the changes in the magnitude of acceleration forces that its operation created.  (So if the pilot's accelerating at 7G and the IVCS is boosting that to, say, 25G, the pilot's only feeling the 7G.)  The female Zentradi/Meltrandi are able to get the most out of the system because they also use a specially-engineered g-hardened pilot who can withstand higher g-loads.

The Inertia Store Converter is a rather different device.  Instead of manipulating the magnitude of acceleration vectors to boost the performance of engines and verniers, it uses more advanced applications of gravity control to temporarily displace acceleration forces on the aircraft itself into higher dimensions.  The aircraft has to generate the full force needed for those accelerations, meaning it doesn't get the propellant efficiency benefits, but it can largely shield itself and its operator from the g-forces incurred by pushing the energy into higher dimensions for a bit and then slowly returning that energy to the aircraft a little bit at a time over a longer period so that it never exceeds safe levels.

I guess I'm nothing if not predictable. 🤣

Edited Sunday at 05:16 AM by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't think the use of an Inertia Vector Control System would meaningfully affect the choice of fuel for the thermonuclear reactor or propellant for space flight.

It would enable the VF to make more efficient use of whatever propellant it was carrying and to accelerate and decelerate more forcefully.  This could potentially cause the VF to exceed the g-force tolerance of the pilot's body and/or the design limits of the aircraft itself, though the IVCS does partially shield the aircraft from this while in operation.

The YF-21 and VF-22 both successfully adopted the technology, though the difficulty of its manufacture was a signfiicant limiting factor in the ability to mass produce the aircraft itself.  (If you take Master File at face value, the IVCS was one of several systems that forced the YF-21/VF-22 to adopt a specially designed engine with more generator output to support those systems, increasing initial and operating costs and decreasing engine lifespan.)

Thanks; increased efficiency was something I was wondering about. I figured if software could throttle the system so the g's it produced did not exceed craft limits (If I understand correctly). This is a bit of research for the project.

 

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Quimeliquola Inertia Vector Control System is a bit different from the Inertia Store Converter.

The Queadluun-series battle suits and the 4th Gen YF-21 and VF-22 had the Inertia Vector Control System, a particularly complicated bit of Protoculture technology which could manipulate the magnitude of acceleration vectors.  Basically, it could amplify or shrink any directional force pushing on the aircraft, from the thrust of its engines and verniers to aerodynamic pressures and even recoil.  As a side effect of its operation, it shielded the interior of the aircraft from the changes in the magnitude of acceleration forces that its operation created.  (So if the pilot's accelerating at 7G and the IVCS is boosting that to, say, 25G, the pilot's only feeling the 7G.)  The female Zentradi/Meltrandi are able to get the most out of the system because they also use a specially-engineered g-hardened pilot who can withstand higher g-loads.

The Inertia Store Converter is a rather different device.  Instead of manipulating the magnitude of acceleration vectors to boost the performance of engines and verniers, it uses more advanced applications of gravity control to temporarily displace acceleration forces on the aircraft itself into higher dimensions.  The aircraft has to generate the full force needed for those accelerations, meaning it doesn't get the propellant efficiency benefits, but it can largely shield itself and its operator from the g-forces incurred by pushing the energy into higher dimensions for a bit and then slowly returning that energy to the aircraft a little bit at a time over a longer period so that it never exceeds safe levels.

So a craft would not need both systems; am I correct?

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I guess I'm nothing if not predictable. 🤣

Yup.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/30/2025 at 1:31 AM, pengbuzz said:

Thanks; increased efficiency was something I was wondering about. I figured if software could throttle the system so the g's it produced did not exceed craft limits (If I understand correctly). This is a bit of research for the project.

As we saw in Macross Plus, the YF-21/VF-22's integrated airframe control AI (which Master File calls ANGIRAS-BRAIN) is designed to limit the performance of the VF to what the pilot's body and the airframe can safely withstand.  Guld had to disable the limiter function in order to draw out the YF-21's full performance to defeat the Ghost X-9, which is why the YF-21 was able to maneuver at a level that caused him mortal injury.

Master File talks a bit about how Project Super Nova was kind of the "Now what?" moment for airframe control AI technology, since there was now a pressing need to have the system prevent the VF itself from hurting or killing the pilot.  That led to the development of the next-gen control AI "ARIEL" that was adopted on the YF-19-3 and later.  The IVCS section in the VF-22 Master File also talks about a limiter being put on the system's operation to prevent it from exceeding the aircraft's g-force design limits and some general limits imposed by its excessive power draw.

 

On 3/30/2025 at 1:31 AM, pengbuzz said:

So a craft would not need both systems; am I correct?

The ISC system seems to be the more advantageous of the two in terms of its effects on performance, though also the more difficult of the two to manufacture due to Humanity's inability to synthesize fold quartz with its present technology.

Whether one could even use both at the same time is unknown, but it would likely require a phenomenal amount of energy.

[TG Remix]

Inspired by PixelatedShinobi's MTL journey of Macross Frontier, I wanted to share a little on what I learned worldbuilding wise from Macross M3 out of curiosity.

 

Episode 1 and Episode 3 takes place in Neo York. Nothing really any noteworthy about the former, the mission is just taking out the Zentradi groups before they reach the supply base in New Alamaba (an ironic name for sure,) and the VF-4 that acts as the boss had it's data presumably be used for the Variable Glaug, Episode 3 however establishes the conflict between the planetary government and the rebel group New York Liberation League, which seems to be made up of both miclones and giants as you fight their VF-4s, VF-3000s (which is especially odd as a unit that wasn't really produced in a wide scale) and Gnerl fighter pods. The captain states there's a delicate balance between the two, and the VF-5000's development on the planet would seem to cause "unnecessary friction" between the two. Considering the VF-5000 was designed as a relatively simple to maintain VF to be built in low numbers, it'd make sense that it would've had its origins on a remote planet, compared to the YF-19 and YF-21's on the more prestigious Eden.

(Ironic how the Algencius' Captain's worry that the capture of the VF-5000 would signify the public opinion of a decline of military control which would affect the political power of Neo York's government, considering our little maverick Isamu Dyson did that in a much greater scale 2 decades later.)

 

Episode 2 takes place on Cristrania, which is a planet that was handed to Zentradi fundamentalists, and given autonomy even as a NUNS colony as early as 2018. It was described to be a natural planet for the development of life for Zentradi, so it's implied that it has a potential population of mostly, if not all of giants. Of course, the reason why it's the setting for that level is that some of them have made contact with anti-UN forces, specifically those who were stationed in the New Nile Factory base that was producing the Variable Glaug. Of course the local government denies this and is reluctant to have a military inspection take place, hence the Dancing Skull's covert operation and the eventual introduction of Moaramia as the pilot of the variable battle pod. Considering even as a child (presumably born the natural way and not cloned, though the last mission makes that a bit unclea) she was raised to believe that Zentradi only exists to fight, I'm wondering if that was something that the anti-UN forces stationed there taught her, or it's a ideology Cristrania itself culturally seem to have.

(Interesting how not only the one NUNS Zentradi colony that's not the poor Macross 5 fleet is not only heavily implied to be made to have a strict conservative-like ideology that willingly houses anti-UN activity, but is one or two letters away from the anarchist commune Christiania, but I digress...)

 

We really don't get much of planetary conflicts or development in the franchise in general, so even if this was just flavor text for the sake of spicing up the game, I appreciate M3 for giving different glimpses of life in the smaller colonies that aren't just the emigrant fleets all over the galaxy.

Edited Tuesday at 11:16 PM by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Episode 1 and Episode 3 takes place in Neo York. Nothing really any noteworthy about the former, the mission is just taking out the Zentradi groups before they reach the supply base in New Alamaba [...]

*space banjo intensifies*

 

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

[...] Episode 3 however establishes the conflict between the planetary government and the rebel group New York Liberation League, which seems to be made up of both miclones and giants as you fight their VF-4s, VF-3000s (which is especially odd as a unit that wasn't really produced in a wide scale) and Gnerl fighter pods.

It's an odd choice, to be sure... given that official materials also make the VF-3000 out to be a flawed prototype that was never produced on a large scale.

Master File does throw a nod to it, though, with the statement that a small number of VF-3000As were subsequently produced and used by adversary forces.

 

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The captain states there's a delicate balance between the two, and the VF-5000's development on the planet would seem to cause "unnecessary friction" between the two. Considering the VF-5000 was designed as a relatively simple to maintain VF to be built in low numbers, it'd make sense that it would've had its origins on a remote planet, compared to the YF-19 and YF-21's on the more prestigious Eden.

That is a little more odd.

The VF-5000 wasn't developed on Neo York.  It was the first (new) design to come out of the Shinsei Industry VF design headquarters on Earth after it was formed by merging the aerospace engineering divisions of Stonewell Bellcom and Shinnakasu Heavy Industry in 2012.  It was developed to be a comparatively inexpensive VF, but it was also intended to be a general-duty main VF with high production volumes.  It was a continuation/conclusion of Stonewell Bellcom's attempts to perfect the concept behind the VF-1 Valkyrie, which had previously brought about the VF-3000.

As far as we know, pretty much every new (non-enemy) model VF prior to the VF-25 was designed on Earth.  The Test Flight Center at Eden's New Edwards AFB is Earth's favorite proving ground for new VF designs (likely due to the unspoiled planetary conditions), but both Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy keep their VF design teams headquartered on Earth.

 

16 hours ago, TG Remix said:

(Ironic how the Algencius' Captain's worry that the capture of the VF-5000 would signify the public opinion of a decline of military control which would affect the political power of Neo York's government, considering our little maverick Isamu Dyson did that in a much greater scale 2 decades later.)

A bit... though in the latter case, the New UN Forces were almost forced to save face because there was not way they could admit to the truth of what happened without it turning into an even bigger scandal.  There was no way they could admit the Sharon Apple system that went rogue was intended for military use, that said military AI system also used an illegal processor known for its tendency to go crazy, or that Isamu had stolen the YF-19 from the test flight center to spoil the Ghost X-9's debut by attacking it.  Isamu provided the military with a relatively easy way out that also happened to make it politically difficult to punish him for the crimes he committed.  (So he got an ironic reward instead, ending up promoted on a course towards a desk job, the thing he would hate most.)

There would be no way to pretty up the theft of the latest model VF by anti-government forces, which is why the Algencius's captain was worried.

[TG Remix]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Master File does throw a nod to it, though, with the statement that a small number of VF-3000As were subsequently produced and used by adversary forces.

A "small number" in the context of Macross can be very misleading considering how huge humanity's reach is through the galaxy lol. The VF-17's production was 718, and compared to the thousands of VF-1s and VF-4s, and MF's notion of several tens of thousands of VF-11s, that's a bit minuscule, but logical as a special forces VF with a steep learning curve to pilot.

 

It'd also seem the bomber-variant VF-3000B mentioned in Chronicle would have a better sell for more production numbers since it's bigger size could be to its advantage for that type of role.

 

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As far as we know, pretty much every new (non-enemy) model VF prior to the VF-25 was designed on Earth.  The Test Flight Center at Eden's New Edwards AFB is Earth's favorite proving ground for new VF designs (likely due to the unspoiled planetary conditions), but both Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy keep their VF design teams headquartered on Earth.

Could be a case where the (or even a) VF-5000 was only tested on Neo York as opposed to being built there. In this game alone there's a later mission where either of the three characters can pilot the YF-11 for some live combat testing (And with Mission 7 it almost reads as a publicity stunt, more on that in some time,) and in some sources it describes there being more then one YF-19 and YF-21 for testing before and after the events of Plus, so it's not impossible that a frontier planet, probably with its own economical woes, was chosen for the inexpensive VF to spread its wings.

 

The planetary condition on Neo York is a bit interesting on that topic, since in the mission briefing the planet if seen from space makes it seem very green with regular clouds, not really a Class A planet like Eden and Vajra (which is still a funny name the Frontier fleet chose for the planet by Zettai Live,) but when you fight the New York Liberation League from the mesosphere, it's a more standard blue. Maybe just simple miscommunication between the art direction?

 

On 3/31/2025 at 1:58 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

The ISC system seems to be the more advantageous of the two in terms of its effects on performance, though also the more difficult of the two to manufacture due to Humanity's inability to synthesize fold quartz with its present technology.

Whether one could even use both at the same time is unknown, but it would likely require a phenomenal amount of energy.

Makes me wonder if things like the VF-22 and Queadluun-Rhea that uses VCS could be swapped with the ISC to lessen manufacturing costs while still keeping their performance (I'd mention the Feios Valkyrie, but those things pop up once in every 2 lunar eclipses.) A part of me wonders if the Variable Glaug and Neo Glaug were built with the former in mind as well, since both M3 and The Ride mentions that they were designed based on feedback from a Zentradi's physical functions; especially so since Moaramia was allowed to be captured since she and her "sisters" that serve as the final boss were born with experimental bodies to analyze their own physical factors using Earth technology. As VCS was a Protoculture thing it seems like whatever the Variable Glaug was using seemed to be some type of reverse engineering attempt to do that with the available technology they had.

Edited 7 hours ago by TG Remix

[pengbuzz]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

*space banjo intensifies*

 

It's an odd choice, to be sure... given that official materials also make the VF-3000 out to be a flawed prototype that was never produced on a large scale.

Master File does throw a nod to it, though, with the statement that a small number of VF-3000As were subsequently produced and used by adversary forces.

Seto, did they say what was flawed about the VF-3000? It does seem odd to me that IRL, they decided to go with the VF-11 rather than the 3000, so maybe that was an in-story justification?

(Admittedly, I like the design for the VF-3000 better than the VBF-11).

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

A "small number" in the context of Macross can be very misleading considering how huge humanity's reach is through the galaxy lol. The VF-17's production was 718, and compared to the thousands of VF-1s and VF-4s, and MF's notion of several tens of thousands of VF-11s, that's a bit minuscule, but logical as a special forces VF with a steep learning curve to pilot.

It can be... it depends on the period and the context.  The timeframe and model we're talking about - the VF-3000 in the late 2010s - is very much a "small batch" situation where very low double digit or high single digit numbers are on the table.  Especially given that the VF-3000 never entered actual production anywhere and the handful of units that the military got were purely for evaluation purposes.  This is twenty years before the VF-17 and still more than a decade before the ramp-up of emigration that supported the VF-11's huge production volume.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It'd also seem the bomber-variant VF-3000B mentioned in Chronicle would have a better sell for more production numbers since it's bigger size could be to its advantage for that type of role.

It's not really any bigger than the VF-3000, it just has a slightly longer nose... and the VF-3000 as a whole was designed with fighter-bomber capability in mind.

They had other options on the table too, like the actual VB series that kicked off around that time.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Could be a case where the (or even a) VF-5000 was only tested on Neo York as opposed to being built there.

IIRC, in Macross M3 that's more or less explicitly the case... the Dancing Skulls are there to escort the Algenicus and oversee testing of the VF-5000.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

In this game alone there's a later mission where either of the three characters can pilot the YF-11 for some live combat testing (And with Mission 7 it almost reads as a publicity stunt, more on that in some time,) and in some sources it describes there being more then one YF-19 and YF-21 for testing before and after the events of Plus, so it's not impossible that a frontier planet, probably with its own economical woes, was chosen for the inexpensive VF to spread its wings.

There's actually even multiple YF-11s on the Algenicus at the time.  Max and Milia's input is said to have been critical for selecting the canard version of the design for production.

Macross Plus itself directly acknowledges that there are multiple prototypes of both the YF-19 and YF-21.  The units under active test in the OVA/Movie are the No.2 prototypes of their respective designs.  Some official artbooks for the OVA and movie also talk about and even show pictures of the No.1 prototypes that preceded them.  Official media usually lists three, sometimes four, YF-19 prototypes that were used for testing before the VF-19A was approved for production.  Master File includes those four in its version, and adds a second group of four.  Official media typically stops numbering YF-21 prototypes after No.2, and doesn't properly describe any YF-22s.  Master File does.

Spoiler

The three/four official YF-19s are:

• YF-19-1, which was destroyed during its second test flight which also resulted in the loss of life of the test pilot.
• YF-19-2, the prototype we see in Macross Plus, which was freshly returned from being repaired after a crash.
• YF-19-3, a unit nicknamed "Bird of Prey" (yes, after Star Trek) which was used for structural testing.  
• YF-19-4, a unit used to evaluate flight characteristics and tune the aircraft's control AI, nicknamed "Double Nuts" due to its test pilot being a descendant of the VF-0's.

Master File changes the identities of 3 and 4 and adds four more:

• YF-19-3, the initial ARIEL system testbed aircraft, whihc was destroyed in a testing accident.
• YF-19-4, a color-reversed version of the official YF-19-3 "Bird of Prey" that was used for mission suitability testing alongside units 5 and 6 and was used for the VF-19A rollout demonstration after upgrade.
• YF-19-5, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-6, one of three units used as a mission suitability test unit.
• YF-19-7, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)
• YF-19-8, a two-seater prototype used for demonstrations (VF-19B type)

Master File also explains, for the YF-21, that after the loss of YF-21-2 during the Sharon Apple incident the redesigned YF-21 prototype with the BDI scaled back to being a support system was redesignated YF-22-1 and that two more prototypes were used (YF-22-2 and YF-22-3) before the final design was frozen.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The planetary condition on Neo York is a bit interesting on that topic, since in the mission briefing the planet if seen from space makes it seem very green with regular clouds, not really a Class A planet like Eden and Vajra (which is still a funny name the Frontier fleet chose for the planet by Zettai Live,) but when you fight the New York Liberation League from the mesosphere, it's a more standard blue. Maybe just simple miscommunication between the art direction?

Maybe just the limitations of the system at the time... the Sega Dreamcast was not the most powerful console out there even in its heyday, and it took some real engine magic to actually do highly detailed background textures with a sense of depth to them like in Eternal Arcadia.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Makes me wonder if things like the VF-22 and Queadluun-Rhea that uses VCS could be swapped with the ISC to lessen manufacturing costs while still keeping their performance (I'd mention the Feios Valkyrie, but those things pop up once in every 2 lunar eclipses.) A part of me wonders if the Variable Glaug and Neo Glaug were built with the former in mind as well, since both M3 and The Ride mentions that they were designed based on feedback from a Zentradi's physical functions; especially so since Moaramia was allowed to be captured since she and her "sisters" that serve as the final boss were born with experimental bodies to analyze their own physical factors using Earth technology. As VCS was a Protoculture thing it seems like whatever the Variable Glaug was using seemed to be some type of reverse engineering attempt to do that with the available technology they had.

Hm... I'm not sure that would reduce manufacturing costs, due to material requirements.

As far as we know, the Inertia Vector Control System uses a very high-purity fold carbon core that is very difficult for even factory satellites to produce in large quantities where the Inertia Store Converter has a fold quartz core that cannot be synthesized with present technology and is subject to restrictions on mining and trade in fold quartz.  

The initial-type Variable Glaug was modeled on the VF-4 and the Glaug battle pod, neither of which had an inertia control system like that, so I'd assume it was not a factor in that design.  The Neo Glaug was originally intended as an unmanned fighter, which has no reason to care about protecting the fleshy meats it wouldn't be carrying.  The Neo Glaug bis might benefit from it, as it's a manned derivative of the Neo Glaug with all the performance that implies as a high-end 4th Generation VF design, but the only pilots we ever see in them are fairly elite and might not need the help.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Seto, did they say what was flawed about the VF-3000? It does seem odd to me that IRL, they decided to go with the VF-11 rather than the 3000, so maybe that was an in-story justification?

(Admittedly, I like the design for the VF-3000 better than the VBF-11).

Older explanations for the VF-3000's very limited presence attributed it to issues in the design caused by simply scaling up the VF-1's airframe.  This supposedly gave its joints a tendency to slip.

Newer explanations of the VF-3000's rarity follow the same explanation that Master File adopts.  Namely, that the VF-3000 was developed internally at Stonewell Bellcom after the war as a sort of internal rival/alternative to the VF-4 as a VF-1 successor aircraft that the company ultimately dropped of its own volition when it became clear that the VF-4 would become the next main fighter with just a few test aircraft produced.

The VF-11 came about a decade later, as a successor to the VF-4 and VF-5000.