Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Graham]

In the recent Scorched Earth YouTube video comparing the Yamato and Bandai toy's YF-21 FAST Packs, he mentions that the tail fin packs are micro missile launchers.

But I'd always assumed and also thought I'd read somewhere that the YF-21's tail fin packs were propellant tanks.

Thoughts on what the tail fin packs actually are?

We know there are micro missile launchers built into the belly plate packs.

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, Graham said:

In the recent Scorched Earth YouTube video comparing the Yamato and Bandai toy's YF-21 FAST Packs, he mentions that the tail fin packs are micro missile launchers.

But I'd always assumed and also thought I'd read somewhere that the YF-21's tail fin packs were propellant tanks.

Thoughts on what the tail fin packs actually are?

We know there are micro missile launchers built into the belly plate packs.

Well, I have good news on that score... your recollection/assumption is indeed correct.  That's a propellant tank, not a micro-missile launcher.  I think the propellant tanks are first mentioned in This is Animation THE SELECT: Macross Plus Movie Edition's writeup of the YF-21, but they're also described in a few other places including Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II.

There are additional micro-missile launchers in the YF-21's FAST Pack, but they're on the other pair of packs that are often referred to just as "additional weapons container".  The diamond-shaped ports matching the type seen on the YF-21's dorsal surface are the business end of the launchers.

[aurance]

So, in VF-X2 we have the VF-11's doing missile spam without missile packs. I know some liberties are taken with game graphics as far as technical details go. In a perfect world would these VF-11's have been animated with super packs? Or do they have some sort of internal missile pallet that the stock -11's don't?

[Seto Kaiba]

39 minutes ago, aurance said:

So, in VF-X2 we have the VF-11's doing missile spam without missile packs. I know some liberties are taken with game graphics as far as technical details go. In a perfect world would these VF-11's have been animated with super packs? Or do they have some sort of internal missile pallet that the stock -11's don't?

As far as we know, all of the Valkyries used by the 727th Independent Squadron are stock.  No unusual variants, ace customs, non-standard equipment etc.

Macross VF-X2 also has the VF-1 Valkyrie as a selectable aircraft, and it is also able to spam missiles without a Super Pack equipped.  What that says to me is that the Valkyries in-game are meant to have missiles hung on their underwing pylons which were not modeled for some reason (likely game engine or system limitations).

[sketchley]

7 hours ago, aurance said:

So, in VF-X2 we have the VF-11's doing missile spam without missile packs. I know some liberties are taken with game graphics as far as technical details go. In a perfect world would these VF-11's have been animated with super packs? Or do they have some sort of internal missile pallet that the stock -11's don't?

The VF-11 is a bit "fuzzy" when it comes to internal armaments.  The VF-11C purportedly has them (à la Macross 7).  However, the VF-11B (which ostensibly doesn't have them) is the Thunderbolt that appears in VF-X2.

Seto's answer sounds like it is on the money, as the play-through guide books for VF-X2 state that the game's VF-11B are loaded with "micro-missiles" and "high-manoeuvre" missiles—the latter of which are only ever depicted mounted on the wings.

... and even though the number of missiles in VF-X2 are finite, the game developers opted for fun and gave us unrealistic, massively large quantities.  I hardly ever recall running out of missiles in VF-X2.  However, in the PS2's The Super Dimension Fortress Macross (2003), as I recall often frustratingly running out of certain missiles, the strategic use of them seems to be something that the developers built into game play.

 

TL,DR: they have externally mounted wing missiles that were beyond the rendering capabilities of the time, and have unrealistically large payloads to make the game more fun.

[Seto Kaiba]

22 hours ago, sketchley said:

The VF-11 is a bit "fuzzy" when it comes to internal armaments.  The VF-11C purportedly has them (à la Macross 7).  However, the VF-11B (which ostensibly doesn't have them) is the Thunderbolt that appears in VF-X2.

Yeah, and the internal bay in the lower leg is not actually in the official spec in most publications either... which makes one question whether it's standard gear on the C-type or some kind of improvised equipment.

 

22 hours ago, sketchley said:

TL,DR: they have externally mounted wing missiles that were beyond the rendering capabilities of the time, and have unrealistically large payloads to make the game more fun.

Yeah.  Later titles like Macross 30 did the same despite having ample power to render underwing missiles.  I suspect by that point the motive changed from saving on processor resources to just not knowing what to draw.

[TG Remix]

Going through the on going translation videos of Macross VF-X2, there's a good amount of interesting things that are somewhat revealed for us English audiences.

Firstly, the briefing from Mission 2 gives us some distinct units and their designations; The Hyde City blockade force had the VC806 Laramith Air Force, FG651 Mobile Space Force, and the WE-9 Land Force. It's a nice look to see what a planetary military would have instead of what usually makes up a emigrant fleet, especially when the Air Force is named after the star system as opposed to the planet it's based on. Though I do wonder what would a "Land Force" entail in the Macross universe; almost sounds like a niche the New UN Army would have, if not a sect that has more emphasis on Battroids or even something like the Patroids the City 7 Police used.

 

On a side note, almost forgot that Hyde City is the capital of planet Sephira, which is where Leon Sakaki from Macross 30 comes from. Considering the game and novelization of which was written by Ukyo Kodachi, I like the sense of continuity he builds between side material as opposed to how loose Kawamori plays it; not that it's a bad thing, both have their merits after all. Although for a planet that was colonized and terraformed by the Macross 4, it seems like a awfully quick time for a long distance emigrant fleet to discover, as the terraformation process was completed in 2033, which judging from the launch dates of the others (the Macross 1 fleet in September 2030, and Macross 7 in 2038), seems like at most a couple of years to discover the Laramith system the planet belongs to.

 

The one that caught my attention the most when talking to the gameplay recorder was in Mission 3, where the VF-X Ravens are tasked to protect the UN transport ship "Embatelion" (a repurposed Meltran Assault Landing Ship), and their cargo seems to be something that more or less shapes the franchise after it; the Die Zauberflöte, which Wilbur describes as the UN's new communication device that uses "Hyperspatial Resonance Crystals" (which were discovered in 2043) to make fold transceivers. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It seems like at least the concept of Fold Quartz from Frontier had it's footing from this game, albeit in another, more colloquial term.

Edited February 5 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Firstly, the briefing from Mission 2 gives us some distinct units and their designations; The Hyde City blockade force had the VC806 Laramith Air Force, FG651 Mobile Space Force, and the WE-9 Land Force. It's a nice look to see what a planetary military would have instead of what usually makes up a emigrant fleet, especially when the Air Force is named after the star system as opposed to the planet it's based on.

There's not really a difference, TBH.

Emigrant fleet defense forces become the emigrant planet defense force when the fleet finds a suitable planet to colonize.  Whether those designations are actual ones or just the ones used internally by the Special Forces for that specific operation are anyone's guess, but the unit names and designations we see in other works are more in line with modern ones.

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though I do wonder what would a "Land Force" entail in the Macross universe; almost sounds like a niche the New UN Army would have, if not a sect that has more emphasis on Battroids or even something like the Patroids the City 7 Police used.

Given what we see in the game, likely just infantry and light armored vehicles like self-propelled AA guns and tanks.  Maybe some leftover First Space War-era destroids or Regults.

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The one that caught my attention the most when talking to the gameplay recorder was in Mission 3, where the VF-X Ravens are tasked to protect the UN transport ship "Embatelion" (a repurposed Meltran Assault Landing Ship), and their cargo seems to be something that more or less shapes the franchise after it; the Die Zauberflöte, which Wilbur describes as the UN's new communication device that uses "Hyperspatial Resonance Crystals" (which were discovered in 2043) to make fold transceivers. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It seems like at least the concept of Fold Quartz from Frontier had it's footing from this game, albeit in another, more colloquial term.

Yeah, the Macross Frontier novelizations (TV and Movie) make this connection quite explicit.

Spoiler

First contact with the Vajra occurred in 2040 even in the animation's backstory materials, but the novels reveal that the Critical Path Corporation and its CEO Manfred Brando (who serves as a level boss later in VF-X2) were instrumental in researching fold quartz and experimenting with possible applications of it.  Critical Path sponsored Dr. Mao Nome's expedition into Vajra space with the 117th research fleet, and Manfred himself was a part of the military's board of inquiry that was convened to investigate the loss of the 117th research fleet in 2048.  

In the TV novelization, Ozma got kicked out of the New UN Forces for losing his cool and punching Manfred during the investigation because of how he was treating Ranka. 

The seminal research paper on fold quartz is called the "Manfred Thesis", and an uploaded copy of Manfred's consciousness is one of the Galaxy Fleet executives who is either a minion of Grace's or one of the ones pulling Grace's strings depending on whether it's the TV or Movie version.  

Aegis Focker also puts in a small appearance, noted to be one of Col. Wilder's proteges and at one point one of Ozma's seniors in the NUNS who assists SMS with their investigation into Leon Mishima.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Firstly, the briefing from Mission 2 gives us some distinct units and their designations; The Hyde City blockade force had the VC806 Laramith Air Force, FG651 Mobile Space Force, and the WE-9 Land Force.

It occurred to me while I was eating dinner, there is one case I can think of of non-standard markings indicative of affiliation with a specfic planet/system rather than just New UN Forces.  Variable Fighter Episode Archive, which I have yet to work on, has some pictures of VFs badged as affiliated with the Sewell Independent Space Force.

[JB0]

20 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Although for a planet that was colonized and terraformed by the Macross 4, it seems like a awfully quick time for a long distance emigrant fleet to discover, as the terraformation process was completed in 2033, which judging from the launch dates of the others (the Macross 1 fleet in September 2030, and Macross 7 in 2038), seems like at most a couple of years to discover the Laramith system the planet belongs to.

Sometimes people just get really lucky. When they found a usable world like right at the very start of their mission, someone was celebrating a speedrunning victory.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, JB0 said:

Sometimes people just get really lucky. When they found a usable world like right at the very start of their mission, someone was celebrating a speedrunning victory.

Like that short distance emmigrant fleet that found Eden. Imagine setting out on a multi-year mission to explore the area within a hundred light years of Earth and finding a Class A habitable planet practically on Earth's doorstep almost immediately. One has to wonder if the crew even had a chance to properly unpack their suitcases before the mission was over.

[Graham]

On 1/30/2025 at 9:47 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, and the internal bay in the lower leg is not actually in the official spec in most publications either... which makes one question whether it's standard gear on the C-type or some kind of improvised equipment.

 

Yeah.  Later titles like Macross 30 did the same despite having ample power to render underwing missiles.  I suspect by that point the motive changed from saving on processor resources to just not knowing what to draw.

It's strange no underwing missiles were modeled for the VF-11 in the PS3 Macross 30 game.

As Macross 30, the PS3 Hybrid game Macross Last Frontier and the PS Vita game Macross Delta Scramble all have underwing missiles for other VFs, such as VF-1, VF-0, VF-25 etc, so as you said, it's not a matter of processing power for rendering.

I'm also going with the theory that Artdink just didn't know what to do about the VF-11 and maybe never asked.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Graham said:

I'm also going with the theory that Artdink just didn't know what to do about the VF-11 and maybe never asked.

That's probably the case, given that there are only really two story sources that depict the VF-11 using its underwing pylons: Macross the Ride and Variable Fighter Master File.

Macross the Ride's depiction of the VF-11 using its underwing pylons - Anthony Clemens's VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor - didn't have any visuals until Chapter 10.  That came out in October 2011, about four months before Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy was released.  Variable Fighter Master File: VF-11 Thunderbolt didn't come out until March 2019, around seven years after the game's release.

 

On an unrelated note, an interesting detail I found while working on Master File in a quiet moment offers an interesting explanation for the sudden (in-universe) renewal of interest in railgun and coilgun technology around the time of Macross Frontier.  A point that Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah keeps coming back to in several sections is how a closed-system environment ship like the Macross Frontier has to very carefully manage its usage of organic compounds in various non-recyclable contexts (such as explosives or combustible rocket fuels) because those resources are precious and necessary to the maintenance of the ship's artificial environment.  As a result, these compounds are a good deal more costly for emigrant ships than planetary governments and thus create a cost incentive to explore alternatives like substituting railguns and coilguns for cannons using chemical propellants and swapping rocket motors for plasma arcjets on some missiles.  

[TG Remix]

On 2/5/2025 at 4:31 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Emigrant fleet defense forces become the emigrant planet defense force when the fleet finds a suitable planet to colonize.  Whether those designations are actual ones or just the ones used internally by the Special Forces for that specific operation are anyone's guess, but the unit names and designations we see in other works are more in line with modern ones.

That makes sense, and I was wondering why those designations were different from the norm. Would make sense if they catalogued them through codenames/IDs since there's probably a lot more overlap with squadron/fleet/battalion/etc. names all across the galaxy than we realize.

 

On 2/5/2025 at 4:31 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Given what we see in the game, likely just infantry and light armored vehicles like self-propelled AA guns and tanks.  Maybe some leftover First Space War-era destroids or Regults.

We did see some armored vehicles in the Frontier fleet and some modern renovations of Destroids in the Frontier and Delta era, so that tracks. Though considering variable attacker's Battroid form are said to be more analogous to Destroids in function (or at least the VA-3, Macross Chronicle seems to suggest it for all VAs in a general sense,) I'm wondering if their more ground based orientated designs would help in that regard too.

 

On 2/5/2025 at 7:57 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It occurred to me while I was eating dinner, there is one case I can think of of non-standard markings indicative of affiliation with a specfic planet/system rather than just New UN Forces.  Variable Fighter Episode Archive, which I have yet to work on, has some pictures of VFs badged as affiliated with the Sewell Independent Space Force.

First time I've heard of that, would that be related to the Master File books at all? The 3d models and similar drawn art style seems to suggest that.

 

On 2/6/2025 at 6:07 AM, JB0 said:

Sometimes people just get really lucky. When they found a usable world like right at the very start of their mission, someone was celebrating a speedrunning victory.

On 2/6/2025 at 7:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Like that short distance emmigrant fleet that found Eden. Imagine setting out on a multi-year mission to explore the area within a hundred light years of Earth and finding a Class A habitable planet practically on Earth's doorstep almost immediately. One has to wonder if the crew even had a chance to properly unpack their suitcases before the mission was over.

I'm just imagining the exact opposite reaction to the poor emigrant fleet that discovered the planet that they mine Barunasium from, or the people that were forced to abandoned Elysium. Spending who knows how long cruising through only to deal with the bare minimum at best lol.

 

Though the conditions of habitable planets got me curious. There's some pre-established places that aren't suited to be colonized like Gaul IV, and some planets had to be terraformed to live in like established with Sephira, but at least in the solar system we know there's people who live in the Apollo Base colony on the moon (which is how some of Shammy's family survived SWI), the H.G Wells colony in Mars where Gamlin comes from, and unless I'm mistaken, some colonies were established across other planets like Jupiter around the SDF era. So I'm wondering in the case of the moon or other similar uninhabitable places you make due with what you have and make underground cities a la Gundam's Granada and Von Braun.

 

On 2/7/2025 at 2:30 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

On an unrelated note, an interesting detail I found while working on Master File in a quiet moment offers an interesting explanation for the sudden (in-universe) renewal of interest in railgun and coilgun technology around the time of Macross Frontier.  A point that Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah keeps coming back to in several sections is how a closed-system environment ship like the Macross Frontier has to very carefully manage its usage of organic compounds in various non-recyclable contexts (such as explosives or combustible rocket fuels) because those resources are precious and necessary to the maintenance of the ship's artificial environment.  As a result, these compounds are a good deal more costly for emigrant ships than planetary governments and thus create a cost incentive to explore alternatives like substituting railguns and coilguns for cannons using chemical propellants and swapping rocket motors for plasma arcjets on some missiles.  

Makes a lot of sense that you'd have to prioritize what resources you need in a environment like that, in a way why by Delta the VF-31's regular gunpod is a railgun, since at a point physical ammunition would be a lot more tedious to handle economically.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

That makes sense, and I was wondering why those designations were different from the norm. Would make sense if they catalogued them through codenames/IDs since there's probably a lot more overlap with squadron/fleet/battalion/etc. names all across the galaxy than we realize.

Thus far, we haven't seen much in the way of official overlap in naming conventions.

The few cases we have seen are mainly different organizations using the same nickname for a unit ("Skull Platoon") or two different ships being named after the same person (SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global and CV-339 Bruno J. Global).  

Spoiler

The latter case appears to be a collision of two different (primarily western) naval traditions:

• Naming escort warships (like destroyers) after admirals and naval officers famed for their heroism.
• Naming aircraft carriers after heads of state.

Bruno J. Global just happened to fit both of those categories thanks to having gone into politics after retiring from the New UN Forces.  So the Spacy named a Macross-class ship after him the same way they did for his friend and mentor General Takashi Hayase and for his onetime rival General Vrlitwhai Kridanik and the New UN Government later named a Uraga-class carrier after him in honor of his government service like they did for prime ministers Harlan J. Niven and Robert A. Rhysling before the war.  (Presumably after he passed away, as was the case for the other two, accounting for why it's a 2030s-era ship and not an ARMD-class.)

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

We did see some armored vehicles in the Frontier fleet and some modern renovations of Destroids in the Frontier and Delta era, so that tracks. Though considering variable attacker's Battroid form are said to be more analogous to Destroids in function (or at least the VA-3, Macross Chronicle seems to suggest it for all VAs in a general sense,) I'm wondering if their more ground based orientated designs would help in that regard too.

We also see some in the opening animation of Macross VF-X2 (Aegis's Konig Monster steps on one) and some anti-aircraft batteries of various types in the gam'es fourth mission, though they are not named and called simply "Battery A" and "Battery B".

Macross Chronicle only really describes the VA-3 as "having the special characteristics of both a VF and a Destroid".  It never explains what that means, and the remark isn't found in the Technology Sheet that discusses Variable Attackers.  It's possible that all they really mean by that is "it has heavier armor", since that's one of the few traits that's mentioned in the Technology Sheet and Mechanic Sheet as setting it apart from Variable Fighters.  

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

First time I've heard of that, would that be related to the Master File books at all? The 3d models and similar drawn art style seems to suggest that.

It's basically a side book to Master File.  The only volume produced thus far is essentially an extended account of the VF-19's ARIEL integrated control AI system.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So I'm wondering in the case of the moon or other similar uninhabitable places you make due with what you have and make underground cities a la Gundam's Granada and Von Braun.

Von Braun, Granada, and the other Lunar cities in Mobile Suit Gundam are built the way they are because of the limitations of the technology available to their builders and what they were built for.  They're not really underground per se.  They were built into existing lunar craters because it was convenient both structurally and for their intended purpose.  They were established as space-based mining and refinery complexes producing construction materials for building space colonies.  Building inside lunar craters provided the stable foundation for the mass drivers needed to launch materials to the construction sites and easy access to lower geological strata.

Salla Base on Mars in Macross was set up as a research facility, so what we see of it is almost entirely surface-based with the only noted underground part being its power plant's thermonuclear reactor.  We don't get to see Apollo Base at any point, but the brief descriptions we get describe it as being built on the lunar surface.  The accompanying shipyard where the SDF-2 was built is noted to be underground, though.  It's likely that the civilian residential areas on Luna are above-ground too.  Macross's technology is more advanced than that of Gundam, relaxing the practical restrictions on what kind of structures can be built.  The existence of gravity control technology would make permanent settlement of the moon a much more practical concern.

Presumably other residential areas set up on Luna and so on take full advantage of the advanced technologies available to make them as comfortable as possible.

[sketchley]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We also see some in the opening animation of Macross VF-X2 (Aegis's Konig Monster steps on one) and some anti-aircraft batteries of various types in the gam'es fourth mission, though they are not named and called simply "Battery A" and "Battery B".

Some ground armaments also appear in Macross Digital Mission VF-X:

• Hover Tank A (tri-barrelled beam gun)
• Large Hover Tank B (beam gun, micro-missiles)
• Floating (Gun) Battery (twin-barreled beam gun)
• Ground (Gun) Battery A (beam gun)
• Ground (Gun) Battery B (beam gun—visually looks like a pair of 3-tube missile launchers)
• Ground (Gun) Battery C (beam gun)
• Space (Gun) Battery A (beam gun, missiles)
• Space (Gun) Battery B (beam gun, micro-missiles, missiles)

※ despite the shared name, the Gun Battery A/B are different in VF-X and VF-X2.

 

At one point, I drew some 'detail up' versions of the Gun Batteries that appear in Macross VF-X2, however, they're not much to look at, as what appears in the game are basic polygon elements that don't appear to have had much thought put into them beyond making them visually distinct from each other (one is a "cube" and the other a "sphere"): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/GunBattery/GunBattery.php

More effort was put into the ground armaments in Macross Digital Mission VF-X, but they are still rather basic... they're visually similar, but not as detailed as the Jināru Fighter Pod Kai and Rigādo Kai that appear in that game*.

 

* images—line art + in-game: http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/mecha/zentraedi/stealth_fighter/stealth_fighter_pod.html , http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/mecha/zentraedi/stealth_regult/stealth_regult.html

 

Edited February 9 by sketchley

[aurance]

On 2/8/2025 at 9:02 AM, TG Remix said:

Makes a lot of sense that you'd have to prioritize what resources you need in a environment like that, in a way why by Delta the VF-31's regular gunpod is a railgun, since at a point physical ammunition would be a lot more tedious to handle economically.

The -31’s gun pod is a beam weapon. Its two secondary weapons (on the arms) are rail guns. Also, rail guns do use physical ammunition, just not physical propellant.

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, aurance said:

The -31’s gun pod is a beam weapon.

The handheld/container-mounted one, anyway.

 

30 minutes ago, aurance said:

Its two secondary weapons (on the arms) are rail guns.

But they are referred to as gunpods in most publications... usually as a "mini-gunpod" (ミニガンポッド) and "railmachinegun" (レールマシンガン).

 

30 minutes ago, aurance said:

Also, rail guns do use physical ammunition, just not physical propellant.

Some of them, anyway.

A few examples, like the VF-25G's SSL-9 Dragunov, use a railgun system to boost the velocity of a projectile that has already been pre-accelerated by a chemical propellant to achieve maximum stopping power.

[aurance]

Oookay Mr. Pendantic 😉😉