Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, aurance said:

So - valkyries have a lot of very thin and pointy bits, e.g. things that are probably control surfaces in flight mode. When they're in battroid mode, assuming they get into some sort of hand to hand combat, wouldn't those surfaces get subjected to tremendous torsion or other stresses if, say, a battroid falls down?

Yep... and many such areas are also subject to enormous stresses during transformation and high-g maneuvering as well.  Even relatively simple acts like walking or running can put joints and panels under a considerable amount of stress.

 

8 hours ago, aurance said:

Are those surfaces designed to bend to absorb stress (other than the weird wing material we see with YF-21)? Do they just snap?

Like the rest of the Valkyrie, parts that you would think of as thin and potentially fragile are made from ultra-durable overtechnology materials (OTMat) far stronger than armor-grade steel.  The structural frame is the super-durable spacemetal/hypercarbon and the composite armor skin covering the airframe is made of the same/similar materials and further reinforced with energy conversion armor.  It takes an extraordinary amount of force to bend or shear that material, but subjected to enough force it will bend or break.

Variable Fighter Master File, of course, goes into more detail.  It naturally confirms the hypercarbon frame material is extraordinarily strong and that the composite armor skin of Valkyries contains hypercarbon itself and is reinforced with energy conversion armor that greatly increases its structural strength.  One detail that Master File offers which is not explicitly repeated in official setting materials is a statement in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1's general discussion of energy conversion armor.  Therein, it says that one area where Humanity adapted the alien overtechnology beyond mere imitation of the technology they found was by applying energy conversion armor as both an armor enhancement and a momentary structural reinforcement system.  Essentially, what it describes is the Valkyrie's control AI dumping additional energy into the energy conversion armor in moments of anticipated mechanical stress like transformation or high-g maneuvers to make the fragile parts under the most stress momentarily more durable. 

This is also mentioned in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix as something that can be done in response to events like a collision or a fall.

Master File also describes the incredible durability of the "space metal" frame and composite armor as a bit of a double-edged sword.  The incredible rigidity of the hypercarbon frame and functionally graded composite armor means that, if warping of structural members does occur, the material's incredible strength can actually prevent repair and make complete replacement of parts the only option.  (How much of a problem this is varies from aircraft to aircraft, but is noted to be especally severe on the VF-25.)  The VF-1 book also notes that this makes Valkyries hard to dispose of when they're retired from service.  The structural materials are so durable that physical destruction of the aircraft is very difficult, and recycling the multilayer functionally graded composite of the armor is extremely expensive.

In a way, the VF-1 Vol.1 book turns the explanation of armor strength into a backhanded explanation for why so many old-model VFs stick around and end up in civilian hands in the franchise.  They're built so tough that normal boneyard methods aren't viable, so the military is stuck keeping them in mothballs until they can be properly diassembled and recycled... making selling disarmed old models off to civilians an attractive alternative disposal option.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yep... and many such areas are also subject to enormous stresses during transformation and high-g maneuvering as well.  Even relatively simple acts like walking or running can put joints and panels under a considerable amount of stress.

 

Like the rest of the Valkyrie, parts that you would think of as thin and potentially fragile are made from ultra-durable overtechnology materials (OTMat) far stronger than armor-grade steel.  The structural frame is the super-durable spacemetal/hypercarbon and the composite armor skin covering the airframe is made of the same/similar materials and further reinforced with energy conversion armor.  It takes an extraordinary amount of force to bend or shear that material, but subjected to enough force it will bend or break.

Variable Fighter Master File, of course, goes into more detail.  It naturally confirms the hypercarbon frame material is extraordinarily strong and that the composite armor skin of Valkyries contains hypercarbon itself and is reinforced with energy conversion armor that greatly increases its structural strength.  One detail that Master File offers which is not explicitly repeated in official setting materials is a statement in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1's general discussion of energy conversion armor.  Therein, it says that one area where Humanity adapted the alien overtechnology beyond mere imitation of the technology they found was by applying energy conversion armor as both an armor enhancement and a momentary structural reinforcement system.  Essentially, what it describes is the Valkyrie's control AI dumping additional energy into the energy conversion armor in moments of anticipated mechanical stress like transformation or high-g maneuvers to make the fragile parts under the most stress momentarily more durable. 

This is also mentioned in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix as something that can be done in response to events like a collision or a fall.

Master File also describes the incredible durability of the "space metal" frame and composite armor as a bit of a double-edged sword.  The incredible rigidity of the hypercarbon frame and functionally graded composite armor means that, if warping of structural members does occur, the material's incredible strength can actually prevent repair and make complete replacement of parts the only option.  (How much of a problem this is varies from aircraft to aircraft, but is noted to be especally severe on the VF-25.)  The VF-1 book also notes that this makes Valkyries hard to dispose of when they're retired from service.  The structural materials are so durable that physical destruction of the aircraft is very difficult, and recycling the multilayer functionally graded composite of the armor is extremely expensive.

In a way, the VF-1 Vol.1 book turns the explanation of armor strength into a backhanded explanation for why so many old-model VFs stick around and end up in civilian hands in the franchise.  They're built so tough that normal boneyard methods aren't viable, so the military is stuck keeping them in mothballs until they can be properly diassembled and recycled... making selling disarmed old models off to civilians an attractive alternative disposal option.

Seto,

I read at the Macross Mecha Manual's Macrosspedia that "The use of space metal frames may have been abandoned/replaced in the post-2012 era of the Macross chronology. Almost no mention of space metal is found outside of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross (1982-1987) era." (http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrosspedia/macrosspedia-index.html) If that's the case, what would NUNS have replaced it with (if any sources mention it) and why would they discontinue it?

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Seto,

I read at the Macross Mecha Manual's Macrosspedia that "The use of space metal frames may have been abandoned/replaced in the post-2012 era of the Macross chronology. Almost no mention of space metal is found outside of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross (1982-1987) era." (http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrosspedia/macrosspedia-index.html) If that's the case, what would NUNS have replaced it with (if any sources mention it) and why would they discontinue it?

It wasn't replaced so much as renamed.

The name is a nod to Gundam's Luna Titanium, but from the outset the term "space metal" never referred to one specific substance.  The original explanation of the term from the 80's is that "space metal" is an umbrella term for a broad assortment of OTM-based alloys and composites that were manufactured in space.  It's called "space metal" because it's metal that's made in space. 🤔 Cunning wordplay, no?  Macross's creators hadn't coined any names for specific super-materials yet, and wouldn't until DYRL? where Hikaru name-dropped "hypercarbon" for the first time. 

Official setting materials tend to stick to vague and generic terms like "super alloy", "structural materials incorporating OTM", and so on.  Those generic explanations have gotten gradually more specific as time has gone on, with Macross Zero mentioning "carbon composite based on nanotechnology".  They occasionally namedrop specific materials like hypercarbon and herculite, but not very often.

Dedicated technical material like Master File, of course, wants to be more detailed and will name specific materials and such and it's those materials that have described VFs as specifically using hypercarbon composites for their structural frames.

Master File also offers a meta sort of explanation for why the term "space metal" fell out of use after the original series era.  Usage of the term in-universe fell off because "space metal" stopped being exotic after the First Space War.  Most manufacturing was being done in space, and those advanced composites and alloys were being used in many basic everyday objects, so it was no longer exotic enough to warrant being treated as a separate category of materials.  The same reasoning is applied to the diminished usage of the term "overtechnology".  After enough time, the advanced technology reverse-engineered from alien technology was no longer special or exotic or beyond comprehension the way the term implies.  It was simply "technology".  

[Seto Kaiba]

Mind you, I should note that even "hypercarbon" has since come to be an umbrella term for a whole family of specific carbon nanomaterial-based super-composites in material like Master File.

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It wasn't replaced so much as renamed.

The name is a nod to Gundam's Luna Titanium, but from the outset the term "space metal" never referred to one specific substance.  The original explanation of the term from the 80's is that "space metal" is an umbrella term for a broad assortment of OTM-based alloys and composites that were manufactured in space.  It's called "space metal" because it's metal that's made in space. 🤔 Cunning wordplay, no?  Macross's creators hadn't coined any names for specific super-materials yet, and wouldn't until DYRL? where Hikaru name-dropped "hypercarbon" for the first time. 

Official setting materials tend to stick to vague and generic terms like "super alloy", "structural materials incorporating OTM", and so on.  Those generic explanations have gotten gradually more specific as time has gone on, with Macross Zero mentioning "carbon composite based on nanotechnology".  They occasionally namedrop specific materials like hypercarbon and herculite, but not very often.

Dedicated technical material like Master File, of course, wants to be more detailed and will name specific materials and such and it's those materials that have described VFs as specifically using hypercarbon composites for their structural frames.

Master File also offers a meta sort of explanation for why the term "space metal" fell out of use after the original series era.  Usage of the term in-universe fell off because "space metal" stopped being exotic after the First Space War.  Most manufacturing was being done in space, and those advanced composites and alloys were being used in many basic everyday objects, so it was no longer exotic enough to warrant being treated as a separate category of materials.  The same reasoning is applied to the diminished usage of the term "overtechnology".  After enough time, the advanced technology reverse-engineered from alien technology was no longer special or exotic or beyond comprehension the way the term implies.  It was simply "technology".  

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Mind you, I should note that even "hypercarbon" has since come to be an umbrella term for a whole family of specific carbon nanomaterial-based super-composites in material like Master File.

Thanks for clearing that up: I was beginning to wonder if maybe they ran out of "space metal" and resorted to explodium or something!! lol

[aurance]

Nice, that’s a lot more detail on this topic than I was aware of. Thanks.

Edited January 10 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

One detail I should probably check with toy collectors on... the name of the company that was responsible for "space metal" development and production in the oldest lore is, I think, a nod to a toy manufacturer or toy line from the 80's: Dyna-Metal.

[Areoborg]

They seem pretty tough even without the energy conversion armor.   In Frontier's episode 12 (I think) Alto and Ranka crashed when an energy pulse knocked out power to the VF-25 and it came crashing to the ground.   It was undamaged, and he was able to fly it around in GERWALK mode before another pulse caused it to crash again.   Despite 2 unpowered crashes in 2 different modes, the VF-25 was still fully functional once the power came back.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, Areoborg said:

They seem pretty tough even without the energy conversion armor.   In Frontier's episode 12 (I think) Alto and Ranka crashed when an energy pulse knocked out power to the VF-25 and it came crashing to the ground.   It was undamaged, and he was able to fly it around in GERWALK mode before another pulse caused it to crash again.   Despite 2 unpowered crashes in 2 different modes, the VF-25 was still fully functional once the power came back.

Yeah, as I noted a few posts back, the overtechnology materials (OTMat) used in a Valkyrie's structural frame and armor are incredibly strong all on their own.  Initial-generation OTM composites are said to be around 200 times as strong as conventional alternatives in the oldest versions of the technical materials.  Enough so that those same materials describe the (pre-energy conversion armor) VF-1 as "lightly armored" yet able to effectively laugh off fire from any conventional weapon.  The example weapon the text cites as ineffectual against the armor is a cannon so laughably huge it has no real world equivalent.  The armor material is so tough they needed to invent new kinds of armor-piercing ammunition and high-energy explosives to defeat it.

 

Spoiler

A remark that actually, oddly enough, actually justifies key aspects of the old Palladium Books "Mega-Damage" system used for the Robotech and Macross II RPGs.

 

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, as I noted a few posts back, the overtechnology materials (OTMat) used in a Valkyrie's structural frame and armor are incredibly strong all on their own.  Initial-generation OTM composites are said to be around 200 times as strong as conventional alternatives in the oldest versions of the technical materials.  Enough so that those same materials describe the (pre-energy conversion armor) VF-1 as "lightly armored" yet able to effectively laugh off fire from any conventional weapon.  The example weapon the text cites as ineffectual against the armor is a cannon so laughably huge it has no real world equivalent.  The armor material is so tough they needed to invent new kinds of armor-piercing ammunition and high-energy explosives to defeat it.

 

  Hide contents

A remark that actually, oddly enough, actually justifies key aspects of the old Palladium Books "Mega-Damage" system used for the Robotech and Macross II RPGs.

 

Something also to keep in mind: even with how strong all these materials are, the Zentradi pulverize countless VF-1's, with Britai making a mess of Hikaru's BARE-HANDED, and forcing him to eject in one particular episode of SDFM.

Scary when you think about it, eh?

Edited January 13 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

On 1/12/2025 at 7:41 PM, pengbuzz said:

Something also to keep in mind: even with how strong all these materials are, the Zentradi pulverize countless VF-1's, with Britai making a mess of Hikaru's BARE-HANDED, and forcing him to eject in one particular episode of SDFM.

Scary when you think about it, eh?

Not s'much.  After all, the few times we see a Zentradi on foot disable or destroy a Valkyrie it's one of the larger, stronger, and more durable Zentradi command types doing it.  The kind of soldier who is a monster even by Zentradi standards.

The few other times we see Valkyries taken down hand-to-hand by Zentradi, they're usually doing so with the benefit of a battle suit's mechanical strength like the few we see in the OVA Macross II: Lovers Again.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 1/10/2025 at 6:20 AM, pengbuzz said:

Seto,

I read at the Macross Mecha Manual's Macrosspedia that "The use of space metal frames may have been abandoned/replaced in the post-2012 era of the Macross chronology. Almost no mention of space metal is found outside of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross (1982-1987) era." (http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrosspedia/macrosspedia-index.html) If that's the case, what would NUNS have replaced it with (if any sources mention it) and why would they discontinue it?

I went a little further down the Overtechnology material science rabbit hole on this one today between loads of laundry, and it's gotten even messier.

The term "space metal" is actually still used in several more modern sources including Macross Chronicle, but it's one of like five terms that are used semi-interchangeably to refer to the same broad family of exotic supermaterials derived from overtechnology:

• Space metal
• Space alloy
• Dynametal
• OTMetal
• OTMaterial

... and that's not counting the overtechnology-derived composite materials that incorporate conventional metals, those (and other) exotic metals as well as exotic non-metallic materials like hypercarbon, reinforced hypercarbon-carbon, hypercarbon fiber, hypercarbon nanotubes, etc.  Like an exasperated zookeeper cleaning out the primate house, all I can say is "This sh*t is bananas."  Hypercarbon seems to be especially versatile, being used in practically any kind of composite arrangement you can get carbon fiber into nowadays like carbon-carbon, reinforced polymer, and metal matrix composites.

 

There's one unrelated section I found while down that particular rabbit hole in Master File that talks about how fold carbon is synthesized and refined and then pivots twice into the subject of how studying Zentradi reactors and fold systems that a film of fold carbon particles was a near-ideal radiation shield, and then into how that was subsequently adapted into a next-generation radar-absorbent material that can be dynamically controlled to absorb specific frequencies using fold waves.  (That and the explanation of how the 3rd Gen active stealth system works is a trip too...)

[pengbuzz]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There's one unrelated section I found while down that particular rabbit hole in Master File that talks about how fold carbon is synthesized and refined and then pivots twice into the subject of how studying Zentradi reactors and fold systems that a film of fold carbon particles was a near-ideal radiation shield, and then into how that was subsequently adapted into a next-generation radar-absorbent material that can be dynamically controlled to absorb specific frequencies using fold waves.  (That and the explanation of how the 3rd Gen active stealth system works is a trip too...)

I wonder if one of those frequencies is infra-red (heat)?

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if one of those frequencies is infra-red (heat)?

No such luck, it seems.

Both in official setting materials and in Master File, infrared emissions seem to (realistically) be the one area where Valkyries continue to struggle when it comes to stealth.  There is a level of unavoidable infrared emissions simply because the engines exist.  Thrust is produced by heating propellant.  Whether it's using fusion plasma, lasers, electrical arcs, or even combustion, the end result is shooting hot gas out of an engine nozzle in order to move and that's going to produce detectable infrared. 

Valkyries have been noted to use the same basic techniques for reducing infrared emissions that real world stealth aircraft like the F-117, B-2, and F-22 do.  They can mix bypass airflow back into the exhaust stream in the engine in order to reduce the exhaust temperature at the nozzle, and they can use their fuel tanks as heat sinks.  They still have to have ways of radiating waste heat to keep a variety of other systems cooled, so there are various radiators and heat exchangers scattered across the airframe including the sub-intakes and wing glove.  In space, the wings and fuel tanks therein are used to store heat during combat and then radiate that heat away to cool the aircraft outside of combat.

The fancy new Radar Absorbant Material that Master File describes as having first been tested on the VF-17 before becoming the standard on the VF-19, VF-22, etc. which it calls FAM or EFAM (Electromagnetic radiation Fold-wave Absorbant Material) seems to be bad with heat in general.  It's not mentioned as being effective at mitigating infrared and the stuff is actually described as heat-sensitive.  It becomes less effective when it gets hot and as a result basically stops working when the VF is using its wings to vent waste heat.

(I did find it very interesting to read about nevertheless, since between that and the "preview control active stealth" system description that explains how 3rd Generation active stealth differs from the previous generations feels a bit like foreshadowing of the Mirage Package on the Sv-303.)