Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[pengbuzz]

On 10/14/2024 at 12:19 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, in Ep21 "Azure Ether" and Ep22 "Northern Cross".

When Brera helps Ranka run away from the Macross Frontier fleet in search of the Vajra homeworld, his VF-27 Lucifer is shown to be equipped with one of LAI's prototype Super Fold Boosters.

 

That's not the standard fold booster, which looks like this (the one Alto uses to get to Gallia IV) in Ep11:

 

The one in your screen captures is LAI's newly-developed "Super Fold Booster" prototype that was first used in Ep12 "Fastest Delivery".

What makes it so "Super" is that it uses fold quartz harvested from the Vajra instead of synthetic fold carbon.  This lets it produce a much more powerful fold effect that can cross fold faults unhindered and fully shields the ship from the different flow of time in higher dimensions.  So in practice, it's "faster" and immune to all the usual navigational issues a regular fold booster has to contend with.

And will make your coffee for you in just 3 minutes.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

And will make your coffee for you in just 3 minutes.

And it'd actually be three minutes for everyone!

One of the bigger logistical problems with fold navigation is the disparity between the passage of time aboard a folding ship vs. the passage of time in realspace and the way fold faults exacerbate it.  

The trip to Gallia IV in Macross Frontier episodes 11 and 12 is a great example.  According to Leon, the Frontier fleet was close enough to Gallia IV to make the trip there by space fold almost instantaneous.  The multiple mild fold faults between the fleet and the planet meant that Alto and Sheryl only perceived a short time traveling to the planet but it really took over a week to get there because the fold faults increased the disparity between experienced time and actual time to over 172 hours.  Thanks to the Super Fold Booster LAI'd developed, Michael Blanc was able to make the same trip that took Alto and Sheryl over a week in a matter of minutes because fold faults were no longer an obstacle.

(It's entirely possible there are career space pilots in the galaxy who are physically and mentally months or years younger than their date of birth would suggest due to the disparity between time in fold vs. in realspace and the way fold faults exaggerate it.)

It's still way less problematic than other FTL methods with time dialation-like effects.  WH40K's warp drives come with the possibility of arriving centuries or millennia late, arriving before you ever left, or if something goes really wrong, having that coffee you were brewing drink you instead. 🤣

[David Hingtgen]

So, trying to find every moment we see a fold booster in Frontier thanks to the above posts, I'm trying to nail down the color----when we see the one being mounted on Michael's -25G, it looks quite red---not PURE red like Hikaru/Alto red stripes, but pretty red.  But pretty much every other appearance of that model (mainly on Brera's), it looks more "coral" in coloring.  I don't think it's an intentional change, just "inconsistency".   "By numbers" it appears coral way more often than it appears red---but "by quality"---we see it clear, well-lit, and well-animated up close when it's red---we never get a *really* good look while it's on Brera's.  Always in the background, or obscured by the -27's afterburners, at night, etc. 

Thoughts on the 'real' color of that model of fold booster?   (all I know for sure is that it's not mauve, like the Bandai DX rendition of it)    

[Seto Kaiba]

28 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

So, trying to find every moment we see a fold booster in Frontier thanks to the above posts, I'm trying to nail down the color----when we see the one being mounted on Michael's -25G, it looks quite red---not PURE red like Hikaru/Alto red stripes, but pretty red.  But pretty much every other appearance of that model (mainly on Brera's), it looks more "coral" in coloring.  I don't think it's an intentional change, just "inconsistency".   "By numbers" it appears coral way more often than it appears red---but "by quality"---we see it clear, well-lit, and well-animated up close when it's red---we never get a *really* good look while it's on Brera's.  Always in the background, or obscured by the -27's afterburners, at night, etc. 

Thoughts on the 'real' color of that model of fold booster?   (all I know for sure is that it's not mauve, like the Bandai DX rendition of it)    

Macross Chronicle and Variable Fighter Designer's Note both print the same shots of the CG model of the VF-27 + Super Fold Booster.

The one on pg212 of Designer's Note is MUCH larger and clearer, though, and in that one it's almost salmon pink IMO.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is the page in question.

[TG Remix]

On 10/10/2024 at 7:50 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope.  They seem to exist wherever it's narratively convenient for them to do so... regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

One trend I've noticed in their appearances in various official media and Master File is that SMS seems to be almost anywhere that's reasonably well-established.  Their presences are all on major emigrant fleets like Frontier and Olympia and on emigrant planets that've established themselves pretty well already like Uroboros, Sephira, Eden, etc.  Xaos seems to operate in the more remote regions of the galaxy.  They have a major contract with the Brisingr Alliance, the mutual defense and economic pact in the remote and isolated stars of the Brisingr globular cluster, and their few other appearances are on remote and underdeveloped or sparsely populated worlds.

 

From what I seemed to read both SMS and Xaos has branches on Sephira, and considering that's the planet where Hyde City was located in Macross VF-X2 seems to imply that it's far enough to be considered a frontier planet, but also close enough to Earth to be considered a target for Black Rainbow, since iirc the game was mostly focused on fighting on central UN territories.

 

You know, considering how SMS kinda went against the Frontier's fleet back to deal with the Galaxy fleet themselves in a large conspiracy (in the TV series), essentially did a prison break scheme for a known criminal about to be executed (in Sayonara no Tsubasa), and Xaos' unlawful participation in the 2nd Windemerean War amongst other illegal actions, I'm wondering when will it be the time where a PMC group goes to the ways of Blackwater and becomes the antagonist for the series, maybe even SMS and/or Xaos themselves. If they can vilify the NUNS at every opportunity surely with them is also possible.

 

On 10/15/2024 at 12:14 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

(It's entirely possible there are career space pilots in the galaxy who are physically and mentally months or years younger than their date of birth would suggest due to the disparity between time in fold vs. in realspace and the way fold faults exaggerate it.)

Would be a interesting thing to tackle, something like that was played for all of its drama in Gunbuster with it's FTL travel. Maybe that's why some characters in the franchise seem to disagree with the concept of aging lol.

Edited October 17 by TG Remix

[aurance]

Are these fold boosters single-use? Even if not they seem to get ejected before combat. How are these fighters supposed to return from the decapitation strike missions that some of them (YF-19 etc) are designed for?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, aurance said:

Are these fold boosters single-use? Even if not they seem to get ejected before combat. How are these fighters supposed to return from the decapitation strike missions that some of them (YF-19 etc) are designed for?

Early model fold boosters like the FBF-1000A fold booster seen in Macross Plus and Macross 7 were single-use fold systems rated for a single fold jump of up to 20 light years.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur and VF-22 Sturmvogel II explain these limitations as a product of the somewhat basic/stripped-down nature of the miniaturized fold system and its use of large amounts of low quality fold carbon in order to keep the cost of the unit down.  Master File also suggests that this cheap and disposable fold system's design was the genesis of the first improvised fold bombs that led to the eventual development of the Dimension Eater by 2059.

Later models like the FAB-1000 fold booster that was used by SMS and the New UN Forces in Macross Frontier were more advanced and capable designs using higher quality fold carbon that could be used for longer distances and multiple fold jumps.  They could be recovered and reattached automatically, as seen in Macross Frontier.

[pengbuzz]

56 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Early model fold boosters like the FBF-1000A fold booster seen in Macross Plus and Macross 7 were single-use fold systems rated for a single fold jump of up to 20 light years.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur and VF-22 Sturmvogel II explain these limitations as a product of the somewhat basic/stripped-down nature of the miniaturized fold system and its use of large amounts of low quality fold carbon in order to keep the cost of the unit down.  Master File also suggests that this cheap and disposable fold system's design was the genesis of the first improvised fold bombs that led to the eventual development of the Dimension Eater by 2059.

Later models like the FAB-1000 fold booster that was used by SMS and the New UN Forces in Macross Frontier were more advanced and capable designs using higher quality fold carbon that could be used for longer distances and multiple fold jumps.  They could be recovered and reattached automatically, as seen in Macross Frontier.

Hmm... interesting way to get rid of an enemy: attach a fold booster to them during a fight and set the jump coordinates for the heart of a star or black hole.

(might work better on capital ships)

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

From what I seemed to read both SMS and Xaos has branches on Sephira, and considering that's the planet where Hyde City was located in Macross VF-X2 seems to imply that it's far enough to be considered a frontier planet, but also close enough to Earth to be considered a target for Black Rainbow, since iirc the game was mostly focused on fighting on central UN territories.

We're almost never given more than the vaguest approximation of where planets exist in relation to each other... the Brisingr globular cluster and Eden are the only real exceptions, since we know approximately how far they are from Earth and each other.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

You know, considering how SMS kinda went against the Frontier's fleet back to deal with the Galaxy fleet themselves in a large conspiracy (in the TV series), essentially did a prison break scheme for a known criminal about to be executed (in Sayonara no Tsubasa), and Xaos' unlawful participation in the 2nd Windemerean War amongst other illegal actions, I'm wondering when will it be the time where a PMC group goes to the ways of Blackwater and becomes the antagonist for the series, maybe even SMS and/or Xaos themselves. If they can vilify the NUNS at every opportunity surely with them is also possible.

Yeah, I look forward to the day that Macross's writers decide to research what PMCs are actually like in the real world and rapidly course-correct towards depicting them as what they typically are: ammosexual civilians playing dress-up because they're convinced they're starring in their own personal action movie and ex-privates who lacked the discipline needed for a military career.

In hindsight, I suppose Macross Delta did try to meet me halfway there.  SMS was a hypercompetent PMC contracted to field-test the military's latest and greatest tech in live combat and staffed with the brightest and best soldiers that could be lured away from the NUNS with massive salaries.  Xaos, by contrast, is a barely competent private outfit under the regional command of a guy who was kicked out of the military for sedition and is staffed mainly by folks who washed out of the underfunded local NUNS for various reasons.  Their most promising recruit is a former forklift driver with a passion for dancing, and the all-important idol group they support and weaponize is made up of (in rough order of severity) a failed solo idol, a cyber-criminal working under duress, an illegal immigrant who also emigrated illegally, an illegal clone, and most heinous of all... Makina. 😝

(The above is a joke, folks.)

If you think about it, we can acknowledge Macross Delta for what it really is... a truly spectacular ad for forklift certification.  Hayate Immelmann got forklift certified, and it almost directly led to him saving the galaxy.  Truly, the forklift certified are the real heroes among us.

We did kind of get a scenario like that in Master File's Volunteer Knights of Arkarelia... with General Galaxy's own in-house private military company, the General Galaxy Corporate Forces, serving as antagonists and assisting one emigrant planet's invasion of a neighboring peaceful planet.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Would be a interesting thing to tackle, something like that was played for all of its drama in Gunbuster with it's FTL travel. Maybe that's why some characters in the franchise seem to disagree with the concept of aging lol.

I used that exact reasoning to explain why certain characters looked far younger than their chronological ages in more than one Macross RPG.

(One of whom was a Jenius, yes.)

 

55 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Hmm... interesting way to get rid of an enemy: attach a fold booster to them during a fight and set the jump coordinates for the heart of a star or black hole.

(might work better on capital ships)

Considering what we've seen malfunctioning fold systems do to ships, like warping space-time into an impassable wall or carving it up like a roast by teleporting chunks of it into higher dimensions, setting it to maximum range, throwing it at someone, and telling it to be anywhere but here is already pretty darn nasty.

[talonlm]

On 10/17/2024 at 7:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, I look forward to the day that Macross's writers decide to research what PMCs are actually like in the real world and rapidly course-correct towards depicting them as what they typically are: ammosexual civilians playing dress-up because they're convinced they're starring in their own personal action movie and ex-privates who lacked the discipline needed for a military career.I

The majority of the real-world PMCs I worked with--over thirty-odd years, two wars, and God only knows how many contingency responses while in the USAF--were and are highly competent professionals.  Arguably, my experience is mainly on the aviation side, but even in the limited work with ground-side PMCs , I've seen no reason to agree with you.  I don't know who you've worked with, but they appear to be the exception. 

Now, in fairness, I have to admit I am now a retired guy and do identify as an ammosexual, but I don't do dress-up unless someone's paying.  Or has beer.  

 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, talonlm said:

The majority of the real-world PMCs I worked with--over thirty-odd years, two wars, and God only knows how many contingency responses while in the USAF--were and are highly competent professionals.  Arguably, my experience is mainly on the aviation side, but even in the limited work with ground-side PMCs , I've seen no reason to agree with you.  I don't know who you've worked with, but they appear to be the exception. 

Now, in fairness, I have to admit I am now a retired guy and do identify as an ammosexual, but I don't do dress-up unless someone's paying.  Or has beer.  

Everyone has their own experiences, certainly.

My friends and family in the Army and Marines have had almost universally negative experiences with PMC troops on the ground.  They almost without exception described the PMC troops they'd met as dangerously undisciplined military cosplayers.  Civilians power-tripping on being allowed to carry firearms and play soldier, who are too panicky or too trigger-happy to be relied upon to de-escalate or conduct themselves properly in combat and too eager to feel powerful to be trusted not to intimidate or harass the locals.  Just massively problematic people in general.  This view extends well up into the military's top brass, with many generals commenting publicly that PMC troops are stupid, reckless, poorly-trained, and generally a liability because the military has to clean up the aftermath of their gung-ho idiocy.  Brigadier General Horst made some delightfully trenchant remarks about that in '05, and he was far from the only one.

The handful of current- and former-PMC personnel I've met and worked with when I was doing government work weren't much different from what I'd been told.  Even the ones I met who'd already retired were very toxic people who constantly sought to intimidate others in order to feel in control and who were frequently openly racist.

Mind you, there's also quite a lot of documented evidence of PMC troops - yes, even US ones - being involved in both petty criminal activity and actual war crimes over many years in various combat zones.  Everything from little stuff like harassment, assault, and armed robbery up to the scale to rape, torture, and murder.

PMCs on average are pretty well entrenched in villainous territory in the real world... which makes the heroic PMCs in Macross feel a bit silly in hindsight.  Esp. with such high-profile villainy on the part of PMCs in recent years.

 

Xaos, at least, is authentically inept when it comes to actual military endeavors.  Their crew of military washouts fumbled the bag so hard that a fourth-rate power like Windermere whose troops had never even seen live combat before was able to push them out of the entire star cluster and bankrupt them with minimal effort in the space of just a few months despite being massively outnumbered by far more experienced personnel.  It's a nice touch that the series actually acknowledges the illegal nature of their participation in the war, and the other criminal misconduct of the company like its illegal cloning operation.

[Areoborg]

I wonder if SMS's staff quality is because of the political situation on Frontier.   I'm pretty sure that Alto said that there were moral and training issues with the NUNS pilots, which is why he wasn't considering joining the military after graduating, and becoming a commercial pilot flying a fixed route is boring.   Since Frontier's response to losing 2 units was to send a flight of Ghosts out to investigate, they were probably using Shackled AI to do most of the heavy lifting for the fighter rolls in the fleet (a full AI combat force isn't going to happen thanks to Sharon Apple)  Which wouldn't be a problem. unless they run into a swarm of space bugs who create natural jamming fields that interfere with the Shackled AI.   That's why I think that SMS was able to get high quality pilots and support staff that weren't military washouts.

That's also why as soon as the ran into the Vajra, space bugs who create a natural jamming field that interfered with the Shackled AI they had no choice but to rely on manned valks and pilots with substandard training and poor moral, who ended up getting beat badly.    But by the time episode 13 rolled around, they had improved pilot training, and they were able to hold their own using the same inferior VF-171s that were getting so badly beaten in Episode 1. 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, Areoborg said:

I wonder if SMS's staff quality is because of the political situation on Frontier.  

Based on what official publications have said, I wouldn't attribute it to the fleet's politics.

It's more readily attributable to two factors:  the prevailing strategic thinking of the New UN Forces at the time, and the ridiculously deep pockets of SMS and its parent megacorp Bilra Transport.

 

11 hours ago, Areoborg said:

I'm pretty sure that Alto said that there were moral and training issues with the NUNS pilots, which is why he wasn't considering joining the military after graduating, and becoming a commercial pilot flying a fixed route is boring.

Macross Chronicle and other official publications explain the "morale and training" matter in two contexts:

First, that the New UN Forces have seen a decline in morale and the level of training due to organizational issues.  The New UN Forces were reorganized in the wake of the Second Unification War to diminish the considerable power they wielded (and abused to their own benefit), and that both hurt morale and impacted the organization's flexibility.  The use of unmanned fighters to automate certain risky operational roles also led to diminished readiness as pilots were simply less experienced.  Many of the troops in the Frontier fleet are simply green, having had little chance to gain practical experience in the generally peaceful fleet.

Second, that the higher morale and better training of SMS's troops owes quite a lot to the deep pockets of SMS and the megacorporation that is its parent company.  Richard Bilra wields enormous political, economic, and financial power in the Macross Frontier fleet becuase his interstellar shipping company sponsored the fleet's mission towards the Vajra's territory in search of fold quartz.  He's also a major backer of President Glass's administration, which allowed him to steer government and military resources to his own company.  His considerable influence over the government enabled him to get SMS designated as a special unit under the direct authority of the Frontier President and exempt from the New UN Forces chain of command, as well as to secure exclusive contracts for SMS to carry out final field testing of the latest cutting-edge weapons developed for the military.  SMS's financial resources are also leveraged to secure cooperation with other large companies like LAI and to headhunt top talent away from the military.  SMS Frontier has several key officers like Jeffrey Wilder, Ozma Lee, and Henry Gilliam who were elite, combat-hardened NUNS troops before joining SMS.  It's only natural that SMS's morale and training are in better shape when they have the latest cutting-edge weapons designed to fight the foe they're fighting and are being trained by people who were once the military's most elite.

 

11 hours ago, Areoborg said:

That's also why as soon as the ran into the Vajra, space bugs who create a natural jamming field that interfered with the Shackled AI they had no choice but to rely on manned valks and pilots with substandard training and poor moral, who ended up getting beat badly.    But by the time episode 13 rolled around, they had improved pilot training, and they were able to hold their own using the same inferior VF-171s that were getting so badly beaten in Episode 1. 

The Vajra's ECM interfering with the command guidance of Ghosts from their motherships did force the New UN Spacy to use its manned fighters, yeah.

That said, the New UN Spacy pilots get an unfairly bad rap from the SMS characters.  They were relatively green troops who were sent into battle against a vastly superior foe.  The VF-171 was not equipped to fight the Vajra.  It didn't have the acceleration performance or the maneuverability to match them in a dogfight and its weapons were just not powerful enough to reliably score kills.  This isn't because the VF-171 is a bad fighter.  It's actually described as something of a masterpiece machine that even average pilots can perform in and the defensive and offensive power to dominate against Zentradi and other VFs.  The Vajra just demand a whole other level of power, which is why the 5th Generation VFs were developed specifically to fight them on an even footing.

SMS are looking down their noses at the NUNS early in Macross Frontier, but it's really hypocritical of them because the main reason SMS is doing better is because they're using weapons designed to fight the Vajra while the NUNS aren't.  Once the NUNS is able to equip its forces with more powerful ammunition and improve countermeasures against the Vajra's powerful ECM, they're immediately doing MUCH better.

Edited October 21 by Seto Kaiba
Made a typo in the first sentence.

[TG Remix]

On 10/20/2024 at 3:07 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

First, that the New UN Forces have seen a decline in morale and the level of training due to organizational issues.  The New UN Forces were reorganized in the wake of the Second Unification War to diminish the considerable power they wielded (and abused to their own benefit), and that both hurt morale and impacted the organization's flexibility.  The use of unmanned fighters to automate certain risky operational roles also led to diminished readiness as pilots were simply less experienced.  Many of the troops in the Frontier fleet are simply green, having had little chance to gain practical experience in the generally peaceful fleet.

I'm assuming that this is more in a generalized sense and not everywhere in the New UN military has that problem (Especially if morale stemmed from the top and pro-autonomy parts of the UN liked more independence away from it.) Though I guess even one of the most richest fleets in the galaxy has morale issues with military personnel then it's probably commonplace across NUNS control. Narratively it was definitely to make SMS a lot more competent as the main characters, but I wonder if because of the more wider adoption of ghost drones and the decentralization, it made military more lax with certain commitments, having a local defenses of planetary defense or a colony fleet be more like a reserve force. 

 

On 10/20/2024 at 3:07 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

SMS are looking down their noses at the NUNS early in Macross Frontier, but it's really hypocritical of them because the main reason SMS is doing better is because they're using weapons designed to fight the Vajra while the NUNS aren't.  Once the NUNS is able to equip its forces with more powerful ammunition and improve countermeasures against the Vajra's powerful ECM, they're immediately doing MUCH better.

And then when they finally got VF-171EX's to properly fight against them, SMS STILL gives them grief for being copycats. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, anything belonging to the NUNS in Frontier and Delta can't win no matter what!  

 

Something else has been bugging me for a bit; if following Sky Angel's notion that a postwar ARMD's consist would be 24 Super Valkyries, 120 Ghosts, and 94 Regults, what accommodations would there be for the giant Zentradi pilots there? It must be a tight fit since as roomy as the space carrier was it's still smaller than the smallest ship in a Zentradi fleet (430 meters vs the Picket Ship's 500 meters), unless they have a lot of micloning machines on standby. Only close thing we got to address that in the series proper was Frontier with the Pixie Team being stationed on the Macross Quarter, but even then those were just three at max pilots that could be easily accounted for.

Edited October 22 by TG Remix

[mikeszekely]

On 10/20/2024 at 3:07 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Forces were reorganized in the wake of the Second Unification War to diminish the considerable power they wielded (and abused to their own benefit), and that both hurt morale and impacted the organization's flexibility.

I'd been saying for, oh, about 25 years now that the story from VF-X2 needs to be animated.  For a good chunk of that time it was just because it had a pretty good story, but Macross Frontier has since established the conflict depicted in the game to have deep ramifications on the the worldbuilding in subsequent Macross products.  I think it's too important now for the story to be left in a doesn't-really-hold-up-anymore PlayStation game.

[sketchley]

11 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I'd been saying for, oh, about 25 years now that the story from VF-X2 needs to be animated.  For a good chunk of that time it was just because it had a pretty good story, but Macross Frontier has since established the conflict depicted in the game to have deep ramifications on the the worldbuilding in subsequent Macross products.  I think it's too important now for the story to be left in a doesn't-really-hold-up-anymore PlayStation game.

The same thing could be said about its predecessor, Macross Digital Mission VF-X, the Sega Dreamcast's Macross M3, and the Sega Saturn's/PS1's The Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love.

The first two are mentioned in multiple timelines produced after their release.  Macross M3 is also the only production that gives us any information on Macross's roughly 30 year blank space between Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus.  Elements of the SDF:DYRL game need to be added to an animated version of Macross The First—especially because a good chunk of them are predecessors (or stepping stones) to designs that show up in later releases* (at the very least, they embellish and further round out the SDFM era).

 

* E.g.:  Zentrādi APC → Gjagravan-Va → Large Vajra

[Seto Kaiba]

22 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'm assuming that this is more in a generalized sense and not everywhere in the New UN military has that problem (Especially if morale stemmed from the top and pro-autonomy parts of the UN liked more independence away from it.) Though I guess even one of the most richest fleets in the galaxy has morale issues with military personnel then it's probably commonplace across NUNS control.

It seems safe to assume that not every local defense force operating under the auspices of the New UN Forces was affected to the same extent, given the broad authority that the local governments have in equipping and training their forces.

That said, it's also fairly safe to assume the decline in the military's morale and training is widespread to the point of affecting every regional force.  The causes given for the New UN Forces' declining morale and training are events which affected the whole of the armed forces, like the reorganization of the government and military in the aftermath of the Second Unification War(s) and the military's expanding use of unmanned fighters to minimize the risk to Human life.

There is also the non-trivial possibility that this trend will begin to reverse itself as 5th Generation VFs see increasing rates of adoption.  They have performance that exceeds that of the current generation of unmanned fighters, and EX-Gear is designed to make operating a VF more intuitive and as a result make training faster and more productive.  With the events of Macross Delta, it's also possible that PMCs will have suffered some reputational damage as a result of Xaos's fumbling the defense of the Brisingr cluster twice and the related exposure of the company's criminal activities.  Volunteer Knights of Arkarelia, while not official setting, seems to be preemptively leaning that way too with its depiction of PMCs like the General Galaxy Corporate Forces as more realistically amoral war profiteers willing to participate in an unprovoked invasion if paid enough.

 

22 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Narratively it was definitely to make SMS a lot more competent as the main characters, but I wonder if because of the more wider adoption of ghost drones and the decentralization, it made military more lax with certain commitments, having a local defenses of planetary defense or a colony fleet be more like a reserve force. 

From what's been described, there are some fleets that have gone to all-Ghost air forces... but most simply treat the Ghost like a second Main Fighter and use them in roles where the risk of loss of life is extremely high like scouting out enemy forces before sending in manned fighters.

I wouldn't say they're reserve forces... more just that they're not using manned fighters for everything and there's just not a need to send human pilots for a lot of simple tasks or especially dangerous roles.

 

22 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And then when they finally got VF-171EX's to properly fight against them, SMS STILL gives them grief for being copycats. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, anything belonging to the NUNS in Frontier and Delta can't win no matter what!  

Yeah, it's pretty unfair...

Though the New UN Forces in Macross Delta can at least say that they're disadvantaged not because a megacorporation put its finger on the scales, but because they live in a bit of a backwater where the governments of the Brisingr Alliance simply can't afford to provide their troops with the latest weapons and the best training.  Their main problem is the way Xaos only grudgingly cooperates with them and undermines them at several critical junctures in order to play hero.

 

22 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Something else has been bugging me for a bit; if following Sky Angel's notion that a postwar ARMD's consist would be 24 Super Valkyries, 120 Ghosts, and 94 Regults, what accommodations would there be for the giant Zentradi pilots there? It must be a tight fit since as roomy as the space carrier was it's still smaller than the smallest ship in a Zentradi fleet (430 meters vs the Picket Ship's 500 meters), unless they have a lot of micloning machines on standby. Only close thing we got to address that in the series proper was Frontier with the Pixie Team being stationed on the Macross Quarter, but even then those were just three at max pilots that could be easily accounted for.

One would assume there are miclone systems around for the Zentradi pilots.  Otherwise, it would not work out very well... or they'd need to have a supplemental module for their accommodations like what's shown in Master File decades later.

EDIT: To expand on the above, because I realized I failed to explain properly, Variable Fighter Master File: VF-4 Lightning III has a section on the ARMD-class ("revised") which shows three alternate configurations of the class that have filled in the underside of the ship in various ways.  One is a "float" version which is just a conversion that permits water landings by having a series of pontoons on the underside, one is a Zentradi use version which includes a large living space module for Zentradi troops, and one is an expanded hull type which just puts more hangar space and more cargo space which facilitates longer duration independent operations.

 

19 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I'd been saying for, oh, about 25 years now that the story from VF-X2 needs to be animated.  For a good chunk of that time it was just because it had a pretty good story, but Macross Frontier has since established the conflict depicted in the game to have deep ramifications on the the worldbuilding in subsequent Macross products.  I think it's too important now for the story to be left in a doesn't-really-hold-up-anymore PlayStation game.

I'm not sure it needs to be animated, since Macross runs on broad strokes continuity.

It can still function as The Great Offscreen War, because only the most general details of it really matter to the story.

It'd be great to have it, though, since it'd be pretty damned cool to watch.

(Or, hell, just remaster the games for modern consoles.)

Edited October 22 by Seto Kaiba
Clarifying the point about the ARMD-class.

[Skull Leader]

On 10/17/2024 at 7:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, I look forward to the day that Macross's writers decide to research what PMCs are actually like in the real world and rapidly course-correct towards depicting them as what they typically are: ammosexual civilians playing dress-up because they're convinced they're starring in their own personal action movie and ex-privates who lacked the discipline needed for a military career.

 

Retired "ammosexual" here....

Most of us do it for the money and for the benefits, which are absurdly better than anything the government provided. I cleared more money in one 3 month detachment training local police forces than I did in the entire two years prior in a government position, and I wasn't being constantly shot at to do it.

Most of us were just happy to flex skills we learned on the government's payroll in an environment where they were actually appreciated. (in my case, law enforcement and search and rescue techniques)

And we never had to fire a shot.

If I weren't married with a kid, I'd probably still be doing it. PMC work definitely lends itself to the single lifestyle (unless you're in admin)

Edited October 23 by Skull Leader

[TG Remix]

On 10/22/2024 at 11:17 AM, sketchley said:

The first two are mentioned in multiple timelines produced after their release.  Macross M3 is also the only production that gives us any information on Macross's roughly 30 year blank space between Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus.  Elements of the SDF:DYRL game need to be added to an animated version of Macross The First—especially because a good chunk of them are predecessors (or stepping stones) to designs that show up in later releases* (at the very least, they embellish and further round out the SDFM era).

 

* E.g.:  Zentrādi APC → Gjagravan-Va → Large Vajra

The APC (armored personal carrier iirc) was the first boss of the DYRL game right? There was a surprising amount of mechs that expanded what a Zentradi fleet would have in its arsenal, like salvage ships and even a jamming device where it stops the broadcast of the Minmay Attack for a good bit.

 

On the point with M3, what'd be nice to see that blank space being developed is how far the UN reach has gotten, since we know about not just the long range fleets like the Megaroad and early New Macross ships (including whatever the Island Jackpot was supposed to be) spread humanity far and wide, but also the short range emigrant fleets that did the grunt work of populating the galaxy 100 light years from Earth. It's probably not likely since most stories in the franchise takes place either on colony ships or frontier planets, but it'd be nice to see how developed the world got immediately after SWI.

 

On 10/22/2024 at 1:38 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

One would assume there are miclone systems around for the Zentradi pilots.  Otherwise, it would not work out very well... or they'd need to have a supplemental module for their accommodations like what's shown in Master File decades later.

EDIT: To expand on the above, because I realized I failed to explain properly, Variable Fighter Master File: VF-4 Lightning III has a section on the ARMD-class ("revised") which shows three alternate configurations of the class that have filled in the underside of the ship in various ways.  One is a "float" version which is just a conversion that permits water landings by having a series of pontoons on the underside, one is a Zentradi use version which includes a large living space module for Zentradi troops, and one is an expanded hull type which just puts more hangar space and more cargo space which facilitates longer duration independent operations

Kinda love the idea of the ARMD (or any NUN ship) having that amount of modularity, would make sense considering how flat the middle of it is. Would make sense to have a module (or just any ship built with giants in mind)  since in a emergency you'd probably want to have at least a few hands on deck for any first response, or hope nothing bad happens to the ship as you macron/miclonize. It's what almost did Klan Klang in the TV series...If it wasn't for Michael sacrificing himself for her sake.

 

The water landing type got me curious, would that be for the ARMD to do atmospheric operations, or just to land in water for potential aerospace/amphibious missions?

 

On 10/22/2024 at 1:38 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It can still function as The Great Offscreen War, because only the most general details of it really matter to the story.

It'd be great to have it, though, since it'd be pretty damned cool to watch.

(Or, hell, just remaster the games for modern consoles.)

Zero more or less did the same with the Unification War, so it's completely possible all things considered. Especially since in the context of VF-X2 it wasn't presented as much of a big deal like Frontier did. Mostly because of the retcons but building more on what's established is always nice.

(I'd love that, much less any Macross game to get rereleased, but it seems unlikely. Can only pray for a English translation on my end)

[Seto Kaiba]

47 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

On the point with M3, what'd be nice to see that blank space being developed is how far the UN reach has gotten, since we know about not just the long range fleets like the Megaroad and early New Macross ships (including whatever the Island Jackpot was supposed to be) spread humanity far and wide, but also the short range emigrant fleets that did the grunt work of populating the galaxy 100 light years from Earth. It's probably not likely since most stories in the franchise takes place either on colony ships or frontier planets, but it'd be nice to see how developed the world got immediately after SWI.

Considering how most distances to/from emigrant planets are left intentionally vague, I'm not sure it would be all that helpful in that regard.

Perhaps doubly so given that Humanity didn't expand into deep space in a uniform manner.  Humanity didn't expand into space in a slowly growing sphere of influence.  They sent emigrant ships out across the galaxy on a bunch of different courses hoping to find habitable planets through sheer dumb luck and determination.  Megaroad-01 launched in 2012 and within four years she was out by the galactic core.  Megaroad-04 launched somewhere around 2016 and by the time she found a habitable planet in 2027 she was way out on the edge of the far side of the galaxy from Earth ~60k-75k light years from Earth.  (This even carries over into Master File, where "nearby" planets like Spica III can be hundreds of light years away and in no particular direction.)

 

 

47 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Kinda love the idea of the ARMD (or any NUN ship) having that amount of modularity, would make sense considering how flat the middle of it is. Would make sense to have a module (or just any ship built with giants in mind)  since in a emergency you'd probably want to have at least a few hands on deck for any first response, or hope nothing bad happens to the ship as you macron/miclonize. It's what almost did Klan Klang in the TV series...If it wasn't for Michael sacrificing himself for her sake.

From the descriptions we have, it sounds like most Human-built ships have a degree of that modularity... but it's modularity of internal systems rather than bolting stuff to the ship exterior, for stealth reasons.  The exception being the Macross-type ships where the individual limbs are typically separate ships in their own right.

Master File's concept of improving the ARMD/ARMD II-class's capabilities by installing modules in the open space underneath the center hull could be said to be taking advantage of the fact that the ARMD-class was originally designed as a space station not a space warship.  I don't think it's been stated definitively, but given that the ARMD-class design is a floating drydock turned upside down that space between the pontoons was probably meant to be a dock for a smaller space warship like an Oberth-class destroyer or some large supply ship resupplying what was designed as a sort of "space airbase".  After the design was repurposed as a space carrier through the additions of engines and a bridge, it was probably only a matter of time before someone in-universe decided to fill in the gap with something.  Macross 7 Trash shows a version of the original ARMD-class where that gap was filled in with what appears to be a large additional hangar.

 

 

47 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

The water landing type got me curious, would that be for the ARMD to do atmospheric operations, or just to land in water for potential aerospace/amphibious missions?

The description is quite short, noting only that the new ventral pontoons are able to be lowered into the water to let the ship float while emigrant fleets are surveying planets.

There shouldn't, theoretically, be anything preventing an ARMD-class from doing atmospheric operations simply by hovering anywhere in the atmosphere using gravity control.  The float module likely is intended to let it operate as an ad hoc navy ship.

 

 

47 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Zero more or less did the same with the Unification War, so it's completely possible all things considered. Especially since in the context of VF-X2 it wasn't presented as much of a big deal like Frontier did. Mostly because of the retcons but building more on what's established is always nice.

(I'd love that, much less any Macross game to get rereleased, but it seems unlikely. Can only pray for a English translation on my end)

The original series did the same with the Unification Wars... with the exception of the opening crawl in episode 1 and the flashback in #33 (IIRC) we never really see the Unification Wars, only the generalities that matter directly to the plot are covered and any additional info is confined to supplemental materials like the short stories in Perfect Memory.

[sketchley]

8 hours ago, TG Remix said:

The APC (armored personal carrier iirc) was the first boss of the DYRL game right? There was a surprising amount of mechs that expanded what a Zentradi fleet would have in its arsenal, like salvage ships and even a jamming device where it stops the broadcast of the Minmay Attack for a good bit.

Correct!  It's one of those mecha that I would have liked to have seen more (completed) images of in such publications as Macross Chronicle.  Alas, the only image source is Kazutaka Miyatake Design Works, and the majority of those are developmental images.

 

8 hours ago, TG Remix said:

On the point with M3, what'd be nice to see that blank space being developed is how far the UN reach has gotten, since we know about not just the long range fleets like the Megaroad and early New Macross ships (including whatever the Island Jackpot was supposed to be) spread humanity far and wide, but also the short range emigrant fleets that did the grunt work of populating the galaxy 100 light years from Earth. It's probably not likely since most stories in the franchise takes place either on colony ships or frontier planets, but it'd be nice to see how developed the world got immediately after SWI.

Alas, Kawamori-san decided that skipping ahead to the M+/M7 timeframe would make for a more interesting story.  And subsequent anime releases have all based themselves from there.

As Seto indicated, beyond that initial 100 ly, human colonization in the galaxy is messy and random.  It probably looks closer to something like a >55-legged box jellyfish, with legs stretching thousands of light years in all directions.

Edited October 25 by sketchley

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, sketchley said:

Correct!  It's one of those mecha that I would have liked to have seen more (completed) images of in such publications as Macross Chronicle.  Alas, the only image source is Kazutaka Miyatake Design Works, and the majority of those are developmental images.

 

Alas, Kawamori-san decided that skipping ahead to the M+/M7 timeframe would make for a more interesting story.  And subsequent anime releases have all based themselves from there.

As Seto indicated, beyond that initial 100 ly, human colonization in the galaxy is messy and random.  It probably looks closer to something like a >55-legged box jellyfish, with legs stretching thousands of light years in all directions.

I would also have to imagine that given many variables in space (such as areas of high radiation and locales near black holes and known "hot spots" of unassimilated Zentran/ Meltran forces), that would only add to the randomness and unevenness of humanity's emigration to the stars.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I would also have to imagine that given many variables in space (such as areas of high radiation and locales near black holes and known "hot spots" of unassimilated Zentran/ Meltran forces), that would only add to the randomness and unevenness of humanity's emigration to the stars.

Not to mention the impact of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta's favorite two-word problem and pet project of SMS parent company founder Richard Bilra: "fold faults".

[TG Remix]

On 10/24/2024 at 3:22 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering how most distances to/from emigrant planets are left intentionally vague, I'm not sure it would be all that helpful in that regard.

On 10/24/2024 at 10:07 PM, sketchley said:

As Seto indicated, beyond that initial 100 ly, human colonization in the galaxy is messy and random.  It probably looks closer to something like a >55-legged box jellyfish, with legs stretching thousands of light years in all directions.

Poor communication on my end, but how seemingly developed and well explored the 100 ly area is I was moreso saying it'd be interesting to focused on that instead of some random place thousands of light years in the galaxy. I don't think it'd be unified like the Brisingr Alliance, but there's a lot of potential to see how different planets, governments, and cultures grew from the early days and interact with each other, especially in such close proximity within the Central UN itself after decentralization. Since even 7 to an extent there's been plot points of Emigrant Fleets interact with one another, so it's not out of range of possibility as well.

 

On 10/24/2024 at 3:22 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

From the descriptions we have, it sounds like most Human-built ships have a degree of that modularity... but it's modularity of internal systems rather than bolting stuff to the ship exterior, for stealth reasons.  The exception being the Macross-type ships where the individual limbs are typically separate ships in their own right.

Makes me wonder for the bigger UN ships (Uraga, Macross-types, and even the pre-modified Varauta Army ships like the Battroid Transport Carrier) if it'd be possible to modify them to hold some giant crew. Unless it's just easier to just modify/built a standard Zentradi ship for that.

 

On 10/24/2024 at 3:22 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

  After the design was repurposed as a space carrier through the additions of engines and a bridge, it was probably only a matter of time before someone in-universe decided to fill in the gap with something.  Macross 7 Trash shows a version of the original ARMD-class where that gap was filled in with what appears to be a large additional hangar.

By a bridge, does that mean the bridge at the front of the ARMD, or the carrier-type one seen in the DYRL type?

 

On 10/24/2024 at 3:22 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

There shouldn't, theoretically, be anything preventing an ARMD-class from doing atmospheric operations simply by hovering anywhere in the atmosphere using gravity control.  The float module likely is intended to let it operate as an ad hoc navy ship.

That's a bit interesting, seeing space ships modified for navy operations, since iirc the Uraga is the only ship purposefully built for such. And I'm not sure there was any more Prometheus and Daedalus type ships built after the first Space War...Which is a weird name in hindsight since we never got, say, a Space War II or the like.

 

Honestly with space ships doing more atmospheric operations I wonder if a standard Macross Air Force got more firepower then ours, practically a few steps away to get a Skies of Arcadia or Castle in the Sky like world in the franchise.

 

On 10/25/2024 at 12:12 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Not to mention the impact of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta's favorite two-word problem and pet project of SMS parent company founder Richard Bilra: "fold faults".

It does make me ask, are there any specifications for how fold faults work? As in, could they pop up anywhere in the galaxy or any limitations on how wide their reach is?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Poor communication on my end, but how seemingly developed and well explored the 100 ly area is I was moreso saying it'd be interesting to focused on that instead of some random place thousands of light years in the galaxy. I don't think it'd be unified like the Brisingr Alliance, but there's a lot of potential to see how different planets, governments, and cultures grew from the early days and interact with each other, especially in such close proximity within the Central UN itself after decentralization. Since even 7 to an extent there's been plot points of Emigrant Fleets interact with one another, so it's not out of range of possibility as well.

This got me thinking... how many worlds within that bubble do we actually know about?

As noted before, Macross doesn't often mention how far apart various planets/systems are so it's hard to know if we've actually seen any systems within that 100 light year radius bubble explored by the short-distance emigrant fleet besides Eden.  Legible backwards text in the first episode of Macross Plus (during Isamu's dressing-down by his CO) describe several emigrant planets including "Planet Barnard", which apparently orbits Barnard's Star 5.978 light years from Earth.  That may imply that the other planets Isamu is threatened with a dead-end assignment to (incl. Micross Minus and Banipal) are within that same zone.

It's also possible that many of the planets visited in the course of Macross M3 are in that same zone.

(Honestly, in astronomy terms, the idea of someone finding a planet at Barnard's star is quietly hilarious... considering how many real-world refuted arguments for a planet there have been made over the years.  Sadly, it seems whatever fleet found it didn't have the sense of humor to name is Vandekamp or something like that after the late Peter van de Kamp, who argued for many years that there was a planet there.)

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Makes me wonder for the bigger UN ships (Uraga, Macross-types, and even the pre-modified Varauta Army ships like the Battroid Transport Carrier) if it'd be possible to modify them to hold some giant crew. Unless it's just easier to just modify/built a standard Zentradi ship for that.

Any space big enough to hold Battroids should be plenty capable of accommodating Zentran.  You'd just have to be willing to put up with the drain on resources, which from what the Macross Frontier series implies, was a rare case indeed.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

By a bridge, does that mean the bridge at the front of the ARMD, or the carrier-type one seen in the DYRL type?

Either.  Quite possibly both.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

That's a bit interesting, seeing space ships modified for navy operations, since iirc the Uraga is the only ship purposefully built for such.

The Uraga-class is certainly not the only example... the Battle-class and the later Saratoga II-type are also designed for blue water operation.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

And I'm not sure there was any more Prometheus and Daedalus type ships built after the first Space War...Which is a weird name in hindsight since we never got, say, a Space War II or the like.

Probably not, considering how fundamentally wrongheaded the Earth UN Forces beliefs about an alien invasion and the strategies involved turned out to be.

The Daedalus-class, Prometheus-class, and Destroids were all products of the assumption that Earth would one day face a classic alien invasion scenario with ground troops and efforts to capture terrain for resources or prisoners.  That turned out to be lamentably wide of the mark.

There is still some kind of blue water Navy in play though, as Isamu's service record mentions him serving about the Navy's Enterprise.  

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Honestly with space ships doing more atmospheric operations I wonder if a standard Macross Air Force got more firepower then ours, practically a few steps away to get a Skies of Arcadia or Castle in the Sky like world in the franchise.

Considering the disparity in munitions capabilities... probably.

Largest ________ metrics are a bit muddy in real world terms thanks to several countries that play fast and loose with what counts as a military ship or aircraft.

Based on officially published numbers, if you parked the Macross 7 fleet on Earth today it'd technically be the 4th largest air force in the world in terms of the total number of military aircraft, behind only China, Russia, and the United States.  As of the 2050s, that's a solidly medium-sized fleet.  

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

It does make me ask, are there any specifications for how fold faults work? As in, could they pop up anywhere in the galaxy or any limitations on how wide their reach is?

Nothing specific... it's known that they can be artificially created by the Protoculture's technology and the Vajra's biotechnology, so presumably they understand how these things work.  They're not really explained to the audience beyond essentially just being a higher-dimension navigational hazard that ranges in severity from "speedbump" to "pothole bad enough to mess up your tires/suspension/alignment", "sinkhole big enough to swallow your car whole", and finally "that's not a sinkhole that's a **** damn canyon".

If we were to extrapolate from official materials, Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet for barrier system suggests that a barrier is essentially a deliberately created fold fault: a region where the geometry of space-time is twisted into an impassible obstacle.  So a fold fault is presumably a region of higher dimension space that's been warped by some (gravitational?) force (stellar gravity, black holes, stray pockets of heavy quanta?).  They're one of those things that Humanity is still studying, having cheated their way to having interstellar flight via very lucky/unlucky first contact events.

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Poor communication on my end, but how seemingly developed and well explored the 100 ly area is I was moreso saying it'd be interesting to focused on that instead of some random place thousands of light years in the galaxy. I don't think it'd be unified like the Brisingr Alliance, but there's a lot of potential to see how different planets, governments, and cultures grew from the early days and interact with each other, especially in such close proximity within the Central UN itself after decentralization. Since even 7 to an extent there's been plot points of Emigrant Fleets interact with one another, so it's not out of range of possibility as well.

It would be nice, but it all depends on what type of story Kawamori-san wants to tell, and what kind of setting is needed for it.  As the direction is trending towards the next generation of Valkyries, the best we can hope for is something akin to the situation inVF-X2: advancing the timeline forward with the latest Valkyries, but set in the near Earth area.

Over the years, myself and others have dabbled a bit in trying to figure out where the planets named in such things as Isamu Dyson's service record are, and the logical conclusion is that the majority of named planets that we know of must be within 100 to 200 ly of Earth.  Otherwise the transit times involved make it ludicrous (either physics are broken, or Isamu has experienced some serious time dilation).  From the opposite perspective: the official materials have stated that it took 20 years for the M25 Fleet to get to where it is in 2059, and the fastest route back to Earth will take half that time (= 10 years).

 

I'm not sure how usable it is, but this is a 'map' that we came up with: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Locations/Locations.php#Local

The planets in green text are official (at the very least, providing a glimpse of the untapped story potential), and we placed most of them within 100 ly of Earth ('sector 1'), and a handful in the 100-200 ly radius beyond that.  The next significant list of planets are the ones from the Emigrant Fleets that headed toward the center of the galaxy.  But as they're so spread out in such a huge area, it's more like the Mariana Islands in the vast Pacific Ocean.

 

So, yeah, I fully agree that they should set the next story near Earth and explore and develop that area far more than they have so far!

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It does make me ask, are there any specifications for how fold faults work? As in, could they pop up anywhere in the galaxy or any limitations on how wide their reach is?

On a certain level they're more like "plot devices" and "plot speed bumps", which defy explanation... 😅

[TG Remix]

On 10/29/2024 at 10:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

As noted before, Macross doesn't often mention how far apart various planets/systems are so it's hard to know if we've actually seen any systems within that 100 light year radius bubble explored by the short-distance emigrant fleet besides Eden.  Legible backwards text in the first episode of Macross Plus (during Isamu's dressing-down by his CO) describe several emigrant planets including "Planet Barnard", which apparently orbits Barnard's Star 5.978 light years from Earth.  That may imply that the other planets Isamu is threatened with a dead-end assignment to (incl. Micross Minus and Banipal) are within that same zone.

 

I'd assume Isamu's served under that bubble, since instead of being placed in the middle of nowhere for his reckless attitude he's stationed somewhere relatively close like Eden for what they thought would be a fools errand of being the (most recent) YF-19 test pilot.

 

On 10/29/2024 at 10:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It's also possible that many of the planets visited in the course of Macross M3 are in that same zone.

Like skectchly theorized, VF-X2 seems to take place around the area as well. Makes sense for both games, as M3 has Max and Miria bepop around planets with the newest VFs at the time (iirc Miria was a test pilot for both the VF-11 and gave pointers for the Queadluun-Rhea's development in Eden) and really left that part when the Macross 7 departed from Earth, and in VF-X2 that plot was revolved around a Earth-supremacist faction that wanted to enforce their pro-unification stance on other parts of the UN, and like Plus had its finale around Earth.

 

On 10/29/2024 at 10:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

(Honestly, in astronomy terms, the idea of someone finding a planet at Barnard's star is quietly hilarious... considering how many real-world refuted arguments for a planet there have been made over the years.  Sadly, it seems whatever fleet found it didn't have the sense of humor to name is Vandekamp or something like that after the late Peter van de Kamp, who argued for many years that there was a planet there.)

At this point I'm convinced the glassing of Earth was the Library of Alexandria all over again, but increased to a incomparable amount.

 

On 10/29/2024 at 10:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The Uraga-class is certainly not the only example... the Battle-class and the later Saratoga II-type are also designed for blue water operation.

On the topic of Battle-class operation, from my read of the Battleship of the Galaxy Vol.2, it creates a interesting notion that not only it was made as a symbolic ship representing the human race, but there was a lot more of them made than just for the Macross fleets; there's even three variants with one being designed as is, another for emigrant fleets (which has the Macross 4 as an example,), and the 2nd generation of Macross ships (showcasing the Battle Frontier)

 

The first version presented there said to have more than 40 of each type of ship around 500 ly alone by 2065, often being in squadrons of several ships of the same type to prepare for Zentradi fleet or Supervision Army attacks. Considering VF-X2's Macross 13 wasn't attached to a fleet and Battle Astraea being the flagship of the New UN Spacy 7th Fleet, it surprisingly works on that end. Though, and I'm aware that it's a doujin, it seems very excessive since that's around 2100-2800 variable craft alone; highly doubt entire emigrant/planetary fleets alone can match that fire power! Then again the Macross 1 and Macross 5 fleets had three City and Battle type ships in its consist, so maybe it's common to have a squadron of them as it is to have only one ship.

 

On 10/29/2024 at 10:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Based on officially published numbers, if you parked the Macross 7 fleet on Earth today it'd technically be the 4th largest air force in the world in terms of the total number of military aircraft, behind only China, Russia, and the United States.  As of the 2050s, that's a solidly medium-sized fleet.  

And then Master File insinuates that 5th generation Emigrant fleets like the Macross Olympia has a whopping 900 ships. That's almost twice the amount the US Navy has! Imagine if the NUNS didn't double down on Ghost drones and they need to have personnel on all of them.

 

On 10/30/2024 at 12:02 AM, sketchley said:

From the opposite perspective: the official materials have stated that it took 20 years for the M25 Fleet to get to where it is in 2059, and the fastest route back to Earth will take half that time (= 10 years).

It feels like how long fold traveling can take can feel a bit haphazard, since Digital Mission VF-X's Elysium was described to be on the edge of the galaxy, and the Anti-UN Zentradi force there folded their ships to Earth pretty quick. And that's not mentioning the Megaroad-1's three year long journey to the center of the galaxy as well.

 

On 10/30/2024 at 12:02 AM, sketchley said:

I'm not sure how usable it is, but this is a 'map' that we came up with: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Locations/Locations.php#Local

The planets in green text are official (at the very least, providing a glimpse of the untapped story potential), and we placed most of them within 100 ly of Earth ('sector 1'), and a handful in the 100-200 ly radius beyond that.  The next significant list of planets are the ones from the Emigrant Fleets that headed toward the center of the galaxy.  But as they're so spread out in such a huge area, it's more like the Mariana Islands in the vast Pacific Ocean.

This has been a pretty helpful map, at least to get a general feel of how close many of these places could be. It's kinda why I wondered since Sephira is said to be relatively close to earth if both Xaos and SMS operated nearby as well, or at least their general range of operations. (and as a side note, very interesting to see the old fandom's curiosity through the worlds for the RPGs as a newbie myself. The Macross 15 fleet's escapades in particular were fun reads.)

 

On 10/30/2024 at 12:02 AM, sketchley said:

So, yeah, I fully agree that they should set the next story near Earth and explore and develop that area far more than they have so far!

And to piggyback that, I kinda liked the "How Perceived (By) Others" relation notes, just to at least see how planets or colony fleets think of others since aside from "cultural exchanges" like what we see between the Frontier and Galaxy fleets, and Windemereans  being in their own bubble for who knows how long, we don't really get that. Can see some colony planets be jealous or want to move to Eden for being a rare Class A-type planet, or trade links between a few since some are noted to be agricultural and industrial fields.

Edited October 31 by TG Remix

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It feels like how long fold traveling can take can feel a bit haphazard, since Digital Mission VF-X's Elysium was described to be on the edge of the galaxy, and the Anti-UN Zentradi force there folded their ships to Earth pretty quick. And that's not mentioning the Megaroad-1's three year long journey to the center of the galaxy as well.

Macross Digital Mission VF-X is a bit of an odd ball.  Its apparent location spawns a list of incongruities (the travel times TG Remix mentions, how could the Unified Forces dispatch a ship there so quickly, etc., etc.)  It appears that the people who wrote the official Macross timeline (in Macross Chronicle and elsewhere) treat it with a grain of salt.  In essence: the Milky Dolls kidnapping happened, but the circumstances are left vague and the 'real event' was probably very different from what's depicted in the game.

Just to keep my head from blowing up, I've interpreted Elysium's location as being in the part of the Carina-Sagittarius Arm closest to Earth, and either at the 'top' or 'bottom' side of that arm (= the edge of the galaxy).

I can't recall the specific Japanese term used to describe its location, but it definitely is NOT akin to 'in the outer rim'.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

This has been a pretty helpful map, at least to get a general feel of how close many of these places could be. It's kinda why I wondered since Sephira is said to be relatively close to earth if both Xaos and SMS operated nearby as well, or at least their general range of operations.

I think the writers of Macross are doing a bit of fudging on top of being unaware of (or downright ignoring) the distances and apparent travel times.  In a way the fast territories that Chaos and SMS operate in align with Kawamori-san's evocative description of Macross F's setting as "the great age of exploration, with e-mail".  In that context, Chaos and SMS being akin to the East India Company and operating trade ships (fleets?) on decade-long cargo runs makes a bit more sense.  Especially if its something like the Spanish Galleons traversing the oceans with cargo holds full of silver and gold.

Things get more reasonable after the introduction of the Super Fold Booster technology.  That above mentioned 10 year journey shrinks to a 1 year journey, bringing intergalactic trade closer to the modern container ship trade.

However, none of that really addresses how the Macross Frontier Fleet was described as being a popular place for tourists, especially as the fleet was travelling so far away from colonized planets, and the apparent rarity of passing close enough to another Emigrant Fleet (E.g. Macross Galaxy) to enable tourism! 😵

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And to piggyback that, I kinda liked the "How Perceived (By) Others" relation notes, just to at least see how planets or colony fleets think of others since aside from "cultural exchanges" like what we see between the Frontier and Galaxy fleets, and Windemereans  being in their own bubble for who knows how long, we don't really get that. Can see some colony planets be jealous or want to move to Eden for being a rare Class A-type planet, or trade links between a few since some are noted to be agricultural and industrial fields.

I can't recall the specific reasons why we added that, but I think it has its origins in the differences between the Frontier and Galaxy fleets, and how different their respective environments are.  It makes sense for the people in Galaxy to be envious and jealous of Frontier, and the people in Frontier to look down at or disdain Galaxy.  So, from a story-writing perspective, the 'how perceived by others' adds a lot of colour.

One wonders if the writers of the Macross shows have something similar in their production story bibles...

[pengbuzz]

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

 In essence: the Milky Dolls kidnapping happened, but the circumstances are left vague and the 'real event' was probably very different from what's depicted in the game.

(snip)

I can't recall the specific reasons why we added that, but I think it has its origins in the differences between the Frontier and Galaxy fleets, and how different their respective environments are.  It makes sense for the people in Galaxy to be envious and jealous of Frontier, and the people in Frontier to look down at or disdain Galaxy.  So, from a story-writing perspective, the 'how perceived by others' adds a lot of colour.

One wonders if the writers of the Macross shows have something similar in their production story bibles...

In that vein, Macross kind of reminds me of the ending of the movie Clue: which way did it really happen?

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

In that vein, Macross kind of reminds me of the ending of the movie Clue: which way did it really happen?

That kind of has already happened—with the VF-X2 game.  The player has to choose whether to join the rebels or stay with NUNS at the end of level 9.  The rebel storyline is much longer and generally what the rest of the overall Macross timeline is based on.  However, because the conflict ends quite differently and months apart depending on the player's choice, it's truly left in a which way did it really happen state in the official timeline. 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 31 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'd assume Isamu's served under that bubble, since instead of being placed in the middle of nowhere for his reckless attitude he's stationed somewhere relatively close like Eden for what they thought would be a fools errand of being the (most recent) YF-19 test pilot.

It's likely, given that Isamu is from Eden and never signed on with an emigrant fleet's escort detail as far as we know.

(Personally, I suspect the reassignment to New Edwards was Isamu's CO trying not just to make him someone else's problem but to put him in a position where he might remove himself from being anyone's problem.  By that point, the YF-19 had put two test pilots in the ICU and two more in the ground.)

 

14 hours ago, TG Remix said:

At this point I'm convinced the glassing of Earth was the Library of Alexandria all over again, but increased to a incomparable amount.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix takes that view.

The Restored Phoenix story section mentions, in passing, a government-led cultural and technological restoration project that spent the twenty years after the First Space War combing through the ruins of pre-war Earth for any surviving cultural artifacts and technology.  It was one of that project's expeditions to Edwards AFB that discovered a cargo container with two wrecked VF-0s from the Asuka II's air group and led to the reverse-engineering and restoration of the VF-0.

 

14 hours ago, TG Remix said:

On the topic of Battle-class operation, from my read of the Battleship of the Galaxy Vol.2, it creates a interesting notion that not only it was made as a symbolic ship representing the human race, but there was a lot more of them made than just for the Macross fleets; there's even three variants with one being designed as is, another for emigrant fleets (which has the Macross 4 as an example,), and the 2nd generation of Macross ships (showcasing the Battle Frontier)

While Battleships of the Galaxy is a doujinshi, we do at least know that the Battle-class was not limited to use by emigrant fleets.

There was, of course, the second Macross 13 that was the flagship of Earth's defense forces under Gen. Kim Kabirov in the Macross Frontier novelization and more recently Battle Astraea from the NUNS's 7th Fleet that became the flagship of Heimdall in Absolute Live!!!!!!.

Master File, while also not strictly official setting, does seem to suggest there weren't initially that many of them since Battle 7 was borrowed for the mission to suppress the main fleet that destroyed Spica III.

 

14 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It feels like how long fold traveling can take can feel a bit haphazard, since Digital Mission VF-X's Elysium was described to be on the edge of the galaxy, and the Anti-UN Zentradi force there folded their ships to Earth pretty quick. And that's not mentioning the Megaroad-1's three year long journey to the center of the galaxy as well.

Oh, absolutely.  Traveling by space fold has always been a "speed of plot" way to get around.  It's easier to leave the distances between places vague or undefined and have people get there when it's dramatic/necessary to do so rather than set up a bunch of detailed rules and stats that they'd then have to worry about following or breaking later on.

This bit of intentional vagueness and the increasing casualness of interstellar travel is justified in-story in several ways.  The introduction of fold faults as a navigational obstacle that can prevent ships from taking the shortest possible route and/or greatly increase the error in time measurement is practically a get out of jail free card for inconsistencies in presentation.  Humanity's ever-advancing technology has allowed them to manufacture more precise and reliable fold systems and advances in fold carbon synthesis have made those systems more capable and efficient.  They've also simply gotten better at using them through experience.

 

14 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And to piggyback that, I kinda liked the "How Perceived (By) Others" relation notes, just to at least see how planets or colony fleets think of others since aside from "cultural exchanges" like what we see between the Frontier and Galaxy fleets, and Windemereans  being in their own bubble for who knows how long, we don't really get that. Can see some colony planets be jealous or want to move to Eden for being a rare Class A-type planet, or trade links between a few since some are noted to be agricultural and industrial fields.

Those are pretty extreme examples, though.  Humanity in Macross isn't quite a monoculture, but most of the galaxy hasn't been separated for long enough to really develop their own ingrained independent cultures and traditions.  

The closest we can reliably get is emigrant planets that already had a native alien species living on them, like Windermere IV or Ragna.  Though Macross being Macross, "not so different" is almost always in play and even these alien cultures end up being more like Human culture than they are different.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

However, none of that really addresses how the Macross Frontier Fleet was described as being a popular place for tourists, especially as the fleet was travelling so far away from colonized planets, and the apparent rarity of passing close enough to another Emigrant Fleet (E.g. Macross Galaxy) to enable tourism! 😵

Supplemental material like Macross the Ride and Master File suggest that the Macross Frontier fleet isn't quite as isolated as the series makes out and that there are several other fleets (incl. Galaxy) and some inhabited planets within semi-easy fold distance of the fleet. (~500ly, according to Master File.)

 

58 minutes ago, sketchley said:

That kind of has already happened—with the VF-X2 game.  The player has to choose whether to join the rebels or stay with NUNS at the end of level 9.  The rebel storyline is much longer and generally what the rest of the overall Macross timeline is based on.  However, because the conflict ends quite differently and months apart depending on the player's choice, it's truly left in a which way did it really happen state in the official timeline. 🤷‍♂️

The exact details are left to Macross's usual "broad strokes" continuity, but it's worth noting that both Macross Frontier and Macross Delta materials effectively treat the game's Vindirance route as the Good/True Ending of its story.  Vindirance and the pro-autonomy faction triumph, the government and military are reorganized, the pro-centrists end up punished for their crimes and some become terrorists (like Naresuan) or mercenaries (like Ernest Johnson).

[JB0]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The closest we can reliably get is emigrant planets that already had a native alien species living on them, like Windermere IV or Ragna.  Though Macross being Macross, "not so different" is almost always in play and even these alien cultures end up being more like Human culture than they are different.

Understandable, given the protoculture's hand in seeding all those planets. We haven't seen a civilization that isn't built on the protoculture as a foundation, really.

The vajra and space whales aren't descended from the Po, and they're too alien to have a human-recognizable civilization.

[TG Remix]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:01 AM, sketchley said:

It appears that the people who wrote the official Macross timeline (in Macross Chronicle and elsewhere) treat it with a grain of salt.  In essence: the Milky Dolls kidnapping happened, but the circumstances are left vague and the 'real event' was probably very different from what's depicted in the game.

Considering how small scale the story in that game is, it wouldn't surprise me that recapping it as detailed as it's sequel, much less the series and movies, was not a huge priority in the slightest. The biggest thing that Macross Chronicle took from it was the Feios Valkyrie, nothing about the improved mechs or even the further development of Sound Energy that the Milky Dolls were formed for.

 

On 10/31/2024 at 1:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The Restored Phoenix story section mentions, in passing, a government-led cultural and technological restoration project that spent the twenty years after the First Space War combing through the ruins of pre-war Earth for any surviving cultural artifacts and technology.  It was one of that project's expeditions to Edwards AFB that discovered a cargo container with two wrecked VF-0s from the Asuka II's air group and led to the reverse-engineering and restoration of the VF-0.

Would be interesting as a story concept where a fleet or planet try to recreate or mimic parts of a culture with what little they have, only to have something unique come out of it. I'm also assuming the Asuka II didn't make it unscathed from the glassing as well?

 

On 10/31/2024 at 1:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

There was, of course, the second Macross 13 that was the flagship of Earth's defense forces under Gen. Kim Kabirov in the Macross Frontier novelization and more recently Battle Astraea from the NUNS's 7th Fleet that became the flagship of Heimdall in Absolute Live!!!!!!.

Those also seem to be attached to Central NUNS fleets as well, either as flagships or operating by themselves, since they have a pretty large consist by themselves. I'm assuming if something smaller like a planetary defense force wanted a Macross-type ship, they'd be better off with something smaller like a Quarter-class or an Elysion type.

 

On 10/31/2024 at 1:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Humanity in Macross isn't quite a monoculture, but most of the galaxy hasn't been separated for long enough to really develop their own ingrained independent cultures and traditions. 

It's not impossible, but it is true that most of what we see try to replicate previous human culture, whether it's ranges from surface level similarities and aesthetics...Or full weaboo territory considering Macross 11 is practically a American themed amusement park.

 

On 10/31/2024 at 1:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The closest we can reliably get is emigrant planets that already had a native alien species living on them, like Windermere IV or Ragna.  Though Macross being Macross, "not so different" is almost always in play and even these alien cultures end up being more like Human culture than they are different.

Wouldn't be Macross without that core!

 

And on the topic of ships again, the existence of the Marines branches implies that amphibious assault ships are still a factor somewhere for the military. I know Zentradi Marines as a few options for themselves, but I'd imagine there'd be a Daedalus successor after SDF, since everything else kinda did in their own right (SDF Macross with the Battle class, ARMDs through the Guantanamos, and I suppose the Oberth and Prometheus with the Northampton and Uraga.) Granted not with its original battle tactics with invading territory and the hundreds of Destroids and such, but VF and VA Battroids alone can more than enough fill the same role.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 11/14/2024 at 10:38 AM, TG Remix said:

Would be interesting as a story concept where a fleet or planet try to recreate or mimic parts of a culture with what little they have, only to have something unique come out of it.

If you think about it, that's kind of... everywhere.

Post-war culture is a hodgepodge of whatever cultural artifacts and traditions survived the First Space War and whatever they've come up with since to fill in the gaps.  There are whole fleets that devote their living spaces to enthusiastic recreations of pre-war Earth like Macross-11 or Macross Frontier.  Macross Frontier goes so hard on it that they made recreations of multiple cities worth of historic districts complete with superficially appropriate vehicles and other aesthetics.

 

On 11/14/2024 at 10:38 AM, TG Remix said:

I'm also assuming the Asuka II didn't make it unscathed from the glassing as well?

The ultimate fate of the Asuka II is not stated, but she was likely destroyed in the bombardment.

Her sister ship, Graf Zeppelin II, was assigned to protect South Ataria island and may now be floating out near Pluto.

At the very least, we know of one crew member on the Asuka II who has living descendants after the war.  The movie Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure establishes that Walkure member Makina Nakajima is the great-granddaughter of the VF-0 program's chief mechanic aboard the Asuka II: Raizo Nakajima.

 

On 11/14/2024 at 10:38 AM, TG Remix said:

Those also seem to be attached to Central NUNS fleets as well, either as flagships or operating by themselves, since they have a pretty large consist by themselves. I'm assuming if something smaller like a planetary defense force wanted a Macross-type ship, they'd be better off with something smaller like a Quarter-class or an Elysion type.

That's the Battle Astraea, yeah... from the NUNS's 7th Fleet, prior to it being stolen by its commander and crew and becoming the flagship of Heimdall.

Available information suggests planetary defense forces vary in size depending on the emigrant fleet that ultimately colonized the planet.  The New UN Spacy escort fleet that the emigrant ship was protected by becomes the planet's New UN Spacy defense force after colonization begins.  So some planets have a Battle-class to rely on because they had the good fortune to be colonized by a 3rd Gen or later emigrant fleet.  Fleets that didn't leave with one (or lost theirs) would have to build one or buy one.  

Presumably the reason we see no Battle-class ships in the Brisingr cluster is that it was colonized by 1st and 2nd generation fleets like Megaroad-04.

 

On 11/14/2024 at 10:38 AM, TG Remix said:

It's not impossible, but it is true that most of what we see try to replicate previous human culture, whether it's ranges from surface level similarities and aesthetics...Or full weaboo territory considering Macross 11 is practically a American themed amusement park.

Macross Frontier is just as blatant, with the uppermost level of Island-1 being a loving recreation of several parts of San Francisco... right down to the infestation of Toyota Priuses and Ozma's replica of an early 90's Lancia Delta HF Integrale.

Though I think no example better suits the post-war fervor for recreating pre-war history than Culture Park in Macross II: Lovers Again.  Lovingly crafted recreations of many world famous pre-war monuments with Disneyland-like abandon.  The whole scene is a massive homage to Roman Holiday, so we see a lot of Roman landmarks like the Trinita dei Monti church and the famous Spanish Steps, the Mouth of Truth in the Piazza della Bocca della Verita, and the Flavian Amphitheatre.  We also see several other monuments from other places and cultures like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, the Louvre in Paris (we see Ishtar pose in front of Eugene Delacroix's Liberty Leading the People), the Moai from Easter Island, the Great Wall of China, and Petra's Khazneh el-Far'oun... all lovingly recreated for the sake of an enormous historical theme park.  

 

On 11/14/2024 at 10:38 AM, TG Remix said:

And on the topic of ships again, the existence of the Marines branches implies that amphibious assault ships are still a factor somewhere for the military. I know Zentradi Marines as a few options for themselves, but I'd imagine there'd be a Daedalus successor after SDF, since everything else kinda did in their own right (SDF Macross with the Battle class, ARMDs through the Guantanamos, and I suppose the Oberth and Prometheus with the Northampton and Uraga.) Granted not with its original battle tactics with invading territory and the hundreds of Destroids and such, but VF and VA Battroids alone can more than enough fill the same role.

Or that Marines are simply carried as infantry aboard naval vessels... the Marines we see postwar have been the Spacy Marines.