Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Devil 505]

On 7/27/2024 at 6:45 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It does a bit... though I'd assume it's entirely coincidental.

I doubt anyone working on Robotech was even aware that the Sky Angels doujinshi existed, never mind actually having a copy.

There's also the Megaro Zamac model kits, but like you said, it's probably a coincidence.

[cheemingwan1234]

Against a macronized Zentraedi, which gunpod is better suited for fighting them? Given that they are still organics.

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Against a macronized Zentraedi, which gunpod is better suited for fighting them? Given that they are still organics.

Against a Zentradi on foot... well, pretty much any Valkyrie's gunpod is going to be heinous levels of overkill.

Valkyrie gunpods are high-powered cannons meant for use against armored fighting vehicles like Zentradi battle pods and battle suits or enemy Valkyries.  Using one on a Zentradi soldier on foot is essentially using a high-powered anti-materiel rifle against infantry.  It's way WAY more stopping power than you actually need to do the job and it's going to make quite a mess.  The bullets they fire are generally high-caliber armor piercing explosive rounds with extremely high muzzle velocities.  As we saw with the first Zentradi soldier which Hikaru encountered in the original Macross series, the VF-1's GU-11A 55mm gunpod was so powerful the Zentradi's armored pilot suit offered no protection at all.  Many of the later models are at least as deadly as the GU-11, and quite a few are explicitly much more so.  

Pretty much any VF-mounted weapon is overkill against Zentradi infantry because they're all designed for destroying armored fighting vehicles rather than engaging soft targets.  The Valkyrie's coaxial laser cannons would probably be the best weapon for the job.  They're less powerful than the gunpod, they can't jam or run out of ammunition, they don't require reloading, the available fire arc is much larger than the gunpod's, and they can easily target multiple fast-moving objects because the Valkyrie's head can turn quickly and the shot moves at lightspeed.

[TehPW]

On 7/14/2024 at 2:51 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It's not reactants they're drawing in in atmospheric flight... the compact thermonuclear reactor's running entirely on internally-carried hydrogen either way.  It's that they don't have to carry supplemental propellant with them to generate thrust.  They can just pull in air and heat it up like a normal turbofan jet engine.

As to the main question... well... they might not have even bothered.

Had the Earth UN Government and Earth UN Forces had an accurate picture of what space warfare was actually like they probably would probably have decided to focus on large-scale static and mobile anti-fleet defenses rather than anything designed for infantry combat.  Grand Cannons, weapons satellites armed with high-powered beam weapons and batteries of thermonuclear reaction missiles, guided missile destroyers, etc.  Weapons designed to absolutely saturate near-Earth space with thermonuclear fire in order to wipe enemy fleets with overwhelming firepower.  

If they bothered with Valkyries at all, I suspect we'd see something more like the VF-X3 Medusa from the FamilySoft Macross games or a VF-25 with a permanent Armored Pack... something less like an aircraft and more like a heavily armored brick of a spacecraft built to carry the absolute maximum amount of "I want it dead yesterday" firepower.  Even a transformation would probably not be bothered with in favor of maximizing the ability to saturate the combat area with firepower and manufacture as many of them as possible.

If they were absolutely, doggedly determined to make a VF like the VF-1... probably something akin to the VF-0+ or VF-3000.  Just, the VF-1 but bigger.  The size constraints on the VF-1's battroid mode were what caused its limited internal fuel capacity for space flight.  

 

 

The source you are probably thinking of is Macross Chronicle (2nd Edition) Technology Sheet 01E "Variable Fighter", which says things like:

"Energy conversion armor is said to be a technology obtained from the combat pods left in the ASS-1, [...]"

There's a problem with a bigger VF-1 (Maybe I've mentioned this in the past?). That's means you need bigger ships. The main reason all the VF's are referred as Fighter Aircraft (and the people who crew them as 'Pilots' or Aviators) is because of the method in how they are deployed. Otherwise, we might as well call Hikaru, a Battroid Pilot... or 'Mechwarrior (LOL).

[TehPW]

On 8/31/2024 at 10:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Against a Zentradi on foot... well, pretty much any Valkyrie's gunpod is going to be heinous levels of overkill.

Valkyrie gunpods are high-powered cannons meant for use against armored fighting vehicles like Zentradi battle pods and battle suits or enemy Valkyries.  Using one on a Zentradi soldier on foot is essentially using a high-powered anti-materiel rifle against infantry.  It's way WAY more stopping power than you actually need to do the job and it's going to make quite a mess.  The bullets they fire are generally high-caliber armor piercing explosive rounds with extremely high muzzle velocities.  As we saw with the first Zentradi soldier which Hikaru encountered in the original Macross series, the VF-1's GU-11A 55mm gunpod was so powerful the Zentradi's armored pilot suit offered no protection at all.  Many of the later models are at least as deadly as the GU-11, and quite a few are explicitly much more so.  

Pretty much any VF-mounted weapon is overkill against Zentradi infantry because they're all designed for destroying armored fighting vehicles rather than engaging soft targets.  The Valkyrie's coaxial laser cannons would probably be the best weapon for the job.  They're less powerful than the gunpod, they can't jam or run out of ammunition, they don't require reloading, the available fire arc is much larger than the gunpod's, and they can easily target multiple fast-moving objects because the Valkyrie's head can turn quickly and the shot moves at lightspeed.

had Macross SFDM-TV came out around or after first run of Neon Genesis Evangelion, with that concept that the GU-11 was considered overkill in certain situations, one wonders if the makers of SDFM-TV would have borrowed the idea of weapons lockers placed in locations within Macross City, equipped with weapons useable by Valkyries and Spartans (weapons that have real-world versions of Sub Machine Guns or similar? 

actually since both MF and Delta has come out at a time that the youth involved in those series would have seen NGE, was that ever a thing (weapon caches in the cities)?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TehPW said:

[...] one wonders if the makers of SDFM-TV would have borrowed the idea of weapons lockers placed in locations within Macross City, equipped with weapons useable by Valkyries and Spartans (weapons that have real-world versions of Sub Machine Guns or similar?

Probably not.

After all, the reason NERV built Tokyo-3 and its defenses the way that they did was because of the inherent limitations of the EVA units.  Their not-actually-a-giant robot didn't have a usable internal power source and was dependent on a network of extension cords connected to high-voltage generators in the geofront under the city proper.  Without the power supplied by external generators over the umbilical cable, an EVA unit's maximum operating time on its internal backup batteries was less than five minutes.  Like a gaming laptop, the EVAs had just enough juice to get them to the next wall socket and no more.  Even something as simple as leaving city limits under its own power was out of the question, so NERV designed their defenses around fighting inside city limits.  They designed much of Tokyo-3 to drop into the geofront in the event of an attack and build a ton of buildings in town that were actually weapons silos and spools of charging cable connected to the geofront and its rail system.

It wasn't until EVA-01 went absolutely apesh*t and ate the 14th Angel that it acquired a working S2 organ and thus a working internal power source able to sustain it indefinitely and free it from the neverending search for a free plug socket.

None of the mecha in Macross have such a limitation... even if their range left something to be desired, the earliest Variable Fighters and Destroids that used gas turbine engines for power instead of compact thermonuclear reactors carried enough fuel to operate for at least several hours.  Once compact thermonuclear reactors were in play, that became days or weeks between refuelings (planetside).  They could roam freely, so there's no reason to potentially endanger a city or town by waiting until enemy forces reach it to fight them.  They can attack enemy forces hundreds or thousands of kilometers from any conurbation and destroy them with massed firepower (because they don't have to deal with bullsh*t like AT fields) well before civilians are in actual danger.  That kind of eliminates the need for weapons caches within city limits, unless the military base those Valkyries and/or Destroids are coming from is in town and then it's less a cache and more just the base's armory. 

WRT the Spartan, its hands aren't really made for using firearms.  It has that electrified truncheon it can use in Zentradi riot control duty, but in practice it's not meant to carry any weapons in its hands.  It's meant to throw hands.  The manipulators are a reinforced type meant for punching and tearing as much as gripping and are said to be its main weapon.

 

 

1 hour ago, TehPW said:

actually since both MF and Delta has come out at a time that the youth involved in those series would have seen NGE, was that ever a thing (weapon caches in the cities)?

Not that I'm aware, no.

The closest you get is a military base in, or directly adjacent to, a city like the Zentradi Marine Corps base on Al Shahal or the Aerial Knights being barracked in a hangar attached to Darwent Castle in Macross Delta.  

Macross Frontier did imply that there are some Destroids parked inside of Island-1 as last-ditch air defense, but that's for when things have gone TRULY pear-shaped like having to roll out the tanks to fight inside the domes.

[DownIsUp]

Did the occupation and civil war on Windermere involve Destroids or any other notable ground forces? I only ask because Widermere underwent such a massive leap in technology essentially overnight, thanks to NUNS not having their own prime directive. As such, I figure it would've been a very different conflict from the typical Zentraedi skirmishes which usually inform NUNS doctrine which saw the immediate obsolescence of Destroids; especially given both sides had a vested interest in taking and holding the planet

Edited September 4 by DownIsUp

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, DownIsUp said:

Did the occupation and civil war on Windermere involve Destroids or any other notable ground forces?

None mentioned or shown, so presumably not.

Windermere IV's War of Independence against the New UN Government was, by in large, the Great Offscreen War.  We hear a great deal about it in the course of Macross Delta and related works like the gaiden manga White Knight of the Black Wing.  We just never get to actually see it.  The Macross Delta TV series showed us archival footage of disaster that ended the war (the Black Storm) and White Knight of the Black Wing shows us something of the lives of the Windermereans before and during the conflict, but we never really get to see the war itself.  

All we see for the equipment used in the war is the New UN Forces VF-22 and VF-171 and the Kingdom of the Wind's Sv-154.

Considering the Aerial Knights who serve as Windermere's military were an aerial mounted cavalry force before transitioning to a modern air force, it strikes me as unlikely that they'd bother with infantry combat or armored combat in a land war.  Likewise, since the Human settlers on Windermere were from Megaroad-04, it strikes me as unlikely they'd have a significant ground force or any Destroids since their emigrant ship was quite small by modern standards.

[TG Remix]

On 9/4/2024 at 6:28 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

All we see for the equipment used in the war is the New UN Forces VF-22 and VF-171 and the Kingdom of the Wind's Sv-154.

It's a bit of a shame that Kawamori never drew the Battroid form of the Sv-154. Guess it's the curse of being a background VF rearing it's head again.

 

On 9/4/2024 at 6:28 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering the Aerial Knights who serve as Windermere's military were an aerial mounted cavalry force before transitioning to a modern air force, it strikes me as unlikely that they'd bother with infantry combat or armored combat in a land war.  Likewise, since the Human settlers on Windermere were from Megaroad-04, it strikes me as unlikely they'd have a significant ground force or any Destroids since their emigrant ship was quite small by modern standards.

At least judging from the Megaroad-01 in 2012 Flashback, a Megaroad emigration fleet seemed to have a decently big force of military ships, a good chunk of them being Zentradi types and that's not even mentioning the Nupetiet-Vergnitzs in the forefront. Though saying that out loud maybe that's where the Al-Shahal Zentradi garrison got their Thuverl-Salan from too.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It's a bit of a shame that Kawamori never drew the Battroid form of the Sv-154. Guess it's the curse of being a background VF rearing it's head again.

We have a reasonable idea of what it looked like, since the Sv-154 Svard is one of those Kawamori trademark reuses of a design concept he made for a prior non-Macross project.

Specifically, it's the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur" from Air Cavalry Chronicles.  Air Cavalry Chronicles was a further development of the cancelled Advanced Valkyrie project which also never made it to production.  Its story and design works would part company with each other as the story underwent a genre change to become The Vision of Escaflowne and the design works finding their way into Macross 7 and Macross M3.  

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

At least judging from the Megaroad-01 in 2012 Flashback, a Megaroad emigration fleet seemed to have a decently big force of military ships, a good chunk of them being Zentradi types and that's not even mentioning the Nupetiet-Vergnitzs in the forefront. Though saying that out loud maybe that's where the Al-Shahal Zentradi garrison got their Thuverl-Salan from too.

Early emigrant fleets don't seem to have been very large, all in all.

The 1st, 3rd, and 5th generations of emigrant fleets seem to each be separated by an order of magnitude in population.  Megaroad-01 was said to have around 80,000 people in its fleet in total, with 25,000 living aboard the emigrant ship itself.  Those Zentradi ships are physically big, but they don't actually hold a huge number of people or mecha because the crew themselves are 125 times the size of a human (5x in all dimensions) and the ships have to be supplied for long-duration spaceflight.  If you work backwards from the Boddole Zer main fleet's total population, the size of the average battleship's crew is something like 1,500 people tops on a ship that, to scale with its crew, is about the same size to them as a Nimitz-class carrier is to us.  (So around 1/4 or less the crew of a comparably sized Human naval ship.)

With a composition like that, esp. early on, you'd probably be far more likely to have Regults than Destroids.  (The old Sky Angels book does assert that postwar carriers used a lot of Regults.)

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We have a reasonable idea of what it looked like, since the Sv-154 Svard is one of those Kawamori trademark reuses of a design concept he made for a prior non-Macross project.

Specifically, it's the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur" from Air Cavalry Chronicles.  Air Cavalry Chronicles was a further development of the cancelled Advanced Valkyrie project which also never made it to production.  Its story and design works would part company with each other as the story underwent a genre change to become The Vision of Escaflowne and the design works finding their way into Macross 7 and Macross M3.  

So the design for the LV-7 pretty much escaflowne the coop?

 

 

 

 

 

...I'll see myself out now.

 

Edited September 8 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

So the design for the LV-7 pretty much escaflowne the coop?

Gah... that, I think, is the first time I've seen someone successfully riff on Escaflowne's name.

Considering Kawamori almost never seems to be willing to leave a design on the cutting room floor, I'm wondering how long it'll be before we see concepts like the ones from the main mecha in Air Cavalry Chronicles... which had FAST packs to turn into things like a boat.

[TG Remix]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering Kawamori almost never seems to be willing to leave a design on the cutting room floor, I'm wondering how long it'll be before we see concepts like the ones from the main mecha in Air Cavalry Chronicles... which had FAST packs to turn into things like a boat.

The designs not revamped for Macross would make for good groundwork to step away from the Frontier/Delta collection of mechs. As much as I enjoyed the VF-171 and the road to the VF-31, I feel like three series in a row with a VF-25 derivative would be a bit too much, especially for a franchise known to do different things per entry. iirc even the story of Air Calvary Chronicles involved different nations interacting with each other with their different VFs.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Gah... that, I think, is the first time I've seen someone successfully riff on Escaflowne's name.

Considering Kawamori almost never seems to be willing to leave a design on the cutting room floor, I'm wondering how long it'll be before we see concepts like the ones from the main mecha in Air Cavalry Chronicles... which had FAST packs to turn into things like a boat.

😁😁😁

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

The designs not revamped for Macross would make for good groundwork to step away from the Frontier/Delta collection of mechs. As much as I enjoyed the VF-171 and the road to the VF-31, I feel like three series in a row with a VF-25 derivative would be a bit too much, especially for a franchise known to do different things per entry. iirc even the story of Air Calvary Chronicles involved different nations interacting with each other with their different VFs.

Unless the next series is going backwards in time into the gaps between the original and Plus or 7 and Frontier, I suspect we're in for at least one more round with 5th Generation VFs derived from the YF-24.

Both Macross Frontier and Macross Delta used the exact same excuse of PMCs being contracted to do the final phases of operational tests before rollout to the real military.  Once they officially enter service, they've got a good 20+ years as main fighter ahead of them before their eventual replacement enters the picture.  That'll get us to at least the 2080s in-universe since the VF-25 is said to enter service in the early 2060s and the VF-31 c.2069 or 2070.  Without a major new threat to drive fast-paced advancement, the 5th Gen could easily hang around into the early 22nd century.

Especially considering what's been said about the 6th Generation in materials for Macross Delta and especially Absolute Live!!!!!!.  Unless the definition of the 6th Generation itself changes, 6th Generation development is likely to remain stalled until Humanity either discovers a MASSIVE cache of ultra-high purity fold quartz or improves the techniques used for fold carbon synthesis to the point of being able to synthesize the high purity fold quartz necessary to make a working fold wave system.  Right now, the best they can do is to produce very small numbers of halfhearted 5.5th Generation units like the VF-31 Siegfried Custom or an even smaller number of 6th Generation prototypes like the YF-29.

[pengbuzz]

12 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Unless the next series is going backwards in time into the gaps between the original and Plus or 7 and Frontier, I suspect we're in for at least one more round with 5th Generation VFs derived from the YF-24.

Both Macross Frontier and Macross Delta used the exact same excuse of PMCs being contracted to do the final phases of operational tests before rollout to the real military.  Once they officially enter service, they've got a good 20+ years as main fighter ahead of them before their eventual replacement enters the picture.  That'll get us to at least the 2080s in-universe since the VF-25 is said to enter service in the early 2060s and the VF-31 c.2069 or 2070.  Without a major new threat to drive fast-paced advancement, the 5th Gen could easily hang around into the early 22nd century.

Especially considering what's been said about the 6th Generation in materials for Macross Delta and especially Absolute Live!!!!!!.  Unless the definition of the 6th Generation itself changes, 6th Generation development is likely to remain stalled until Humanity either discovers a MASSIVE cache of ultra-high purity fold quartz or improves the techniques used for fold carbon synthesis to the point of being able to synthesize the high purity fold quartz necessary to make a working fold wave system.  Right now, the best they can do is to produce very small numbers of halfhearted 5.5th Generation units like the VF-31 Siegfried Custom or an even smaller number of 6th Generation prototypes like the YF-29.

An idea I'm sure they would never do, but it would be fun to see someone try:

Spoiler

Fill the gap between Absolute Live and...

Spoiler

Macross II

 

 

[Nemus]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:35 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

We have a reasonable idea of what it looked like, since the Sv-154 Svard is one of those Kawamori trademark reuses of a design concept he made for a prior non-Macross project.

Specifically, it's the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur" from Air Cavalry Chronicles.  Air Cavalry Chronicles was a further development of the cancelled Advanced Valkyrie project which also never made it to production.  Its story and design works would part company with each other as the story underwent a genre change to become The Vision of Escaflowne and the design works finding their way into Macross 7 and Macross M3.  

 

Early emigrant fleets don't seem to have been very large, all in all.

The 1st, 3rd, and 5th generations of emigrant fleets seem to each be separated by an order of magnitude in population.  Megaroad-01 was said to have around 80,000 people in its fleet in total, with 25,000 living aboard the emigrant ship itself.  Those Zentradi ships are physically big, but they don't actually hold a huge number of people or mecha because the crew themselves are 125 times the size of a human (5x in all dimensions) and the ships have to be supplied for long-duration spaceflight.  If you work backwards from the Boddole Zer main fleet's total population, the size of the average battleship's crew is something like 1,500 people tops on a ship that, to scale with its crew, is about the same size to them as a Nimitz-class carrier is to us.  (So around 1/4 or less the crew of a comparably sized Human naval ship.)

With a composition like that, esp. early on, you'd probably be far more likely to have Regults than Destroids.  (The old Sky Angels book does assert that postwar carriers used a lot of Regults.)

Wow aesthetically the LV-7 Excalibur is wonderful, too bad they killed the project.

I wanted to ask you, but is the VF-9 really that small? On macross2.net it says that it is only 11 meters long

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Nemus said:

Wow aesthetically the LV-7 Excalibur is wonderful, too bad they killed the project.

I wanted to ask you, but is the VF-9 really that small? On macross2.net it says that it is only 11 meters long

Yeah it's really that small. 

The VF-9 Cutlass is a very small, light duty, low cost variable fighter meant primarily for atmospheric service on emigrant planets.  Basically it's made to be small and cheap and extremely maneuverable in atmospheric flight for planetary defense purposes. 

Apparently this also made it quite an excellent air racer. Vanquish League racing champ Nicolas Francoise Berthier used a VF-9E as his ride in Ultimate class races and managed to remain undefeated despite many of his opponents using significantly newer aircraft.

[TG Remix]

45 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Apparently this also made it quite an excellent air racer. Vanquish League racing champ Nicolas Francoise Berthier used a VF-9E as his ride in Ultimate class races and managed to remain undefeated despite many of his opponents using significantly newer aircraft.

Having engines derived from the VF-22 would definitely help I'd reckon.

 

On the topic of General Galaxy VFs, considering the Elgersoln had it's own escape pod when things go rough, it makes me wonder if the VF-14 had the same thing, like how the VF-11 had it's own, as 7 loved to show.

 

On 9/9/2024 at 12:00 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Unless the next series is going backwards in time into the gaps between the original and Plus or 7 and Frontier, I suspect we're in for at least one more round with 5th Generation VFs derived from the YF-24.

Oh well. Going back wouldn't be bad at all, though I'd suppose it would only be to act as set up for another later series, like Zero was to Frontier.

 

2 hours ago, Nemus said:

Wow aesthetically the LV-7 Excalibur is wonderful, too bad they killed the project.

It lives on as the SV-154 to an extent...A design we barely see much of in its series, but it counts. If the LV-7s Battroid is the closest thing we have for the Svard itself, wonder what that makes for the shoulders (since the fighters intakes up front don't seem to separate to become those and the arms) and the legs (which look a lot closer to the SV-51s if anything)

Edited September 12 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Having engines derived from the VF-22 would definitely help I'd reckon.

But for the disquieting tendency to explode, yeah.

Berthier's choice of VF is said to be something like a self-imposed challenge, since he's a cyborg with an augmented nervous system that gives him superhumanly fast reflexes.

 

 

12 hours ago, TG Remix said:

On the topic of General Galaxy VFs, considering the Elgersoln had it's own escape pod when things go rough, it makes me wonder if the VF-14 had the same thing, like how the VF-11 had it's own, as 7 loved to show.

Almost certainly, given that the Varauta VFs are technologically upgraded versions of the existing VA-14, VF-14, and VAB-2 that the Megaroad-13 defense forces used.

Macross 7 was the only series to use the ejection of the cockpit block as an "escape pod" prominently in actual combat, but the actual capability goes back to the original series and the VF-1.  You probably remember how Roy ejected the cockpit block of Hikaru's disabled VF-1D and took it with him when he evacuated from South Ataria.  Masahiro Chiba and company wrote up a fairly detailed explanation of how VF ejection mechanisms work in the original Sky Angels VF-1 tech manual.  It describes ejecting the entire nose as a standard ejection method for space or very high altitudes, while more traditional ejection methods are used at lower altitudes.

There are some remarks made in connection with the VF-25's APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack that suggest that ejecting the cockpit block is probably still one of the standard VF escape methods even in 2059+.

It seems that we just don't get to see it because the few times we've seen a pilot have to escape an aircraft in recent titles have either been catastrophic loss of the aircraft while stationary or flying at low altitudes (e.g. Alto's first VF-25F, Michel's VF-25G, Hayate's VF-31J).

 

 

12 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Oh well. Going back wouldn't be bad at all, though I'd suppose it would only be to act as set up for another later series, like Zero was to Frontier.

I'd love to see them go back to the late 2010s or 2020s and show us the heyday of the 2nd Generation VFs before they were replaced by the VF-11.

Or go back to the late 2040s and 2050 and show us the Second Unification War.

[twich]

I too would love to see some of the gaps filled in. Second Unification War sounds like a good story to tell, also would go with the theme of VF vs VF combat.

Twich

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Berthier's choice of VF is said to be something like a self-imposed challenge, since he's a cyborg with an augmented nervous system that gives him superhumanly fast reflexes.

That explains the audacity. Though it makes me wonder; cyborgs can still pilot military craft after Frontier right? Just pushing specifically towards that direction is a no no that the NUNS had and Hemidall disagreed with.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross 7 was the only series to use the ejection of the cockpit block as an "escape pod" prominently in actual combat, but the actual capability goes back to the original series and the VF-1.  You probably remember how Roy ejected the cockpit block of Hikaru's disabled VF-1D and took it with him when he evacuated from South Ataria.  Masahiro Chiba and company wrote up a fairly detailed explanation of how VF ejection mechanisms work in the original Sky Angels VF-1 tech manual.  It describes ejecting the entire nose as a standard ejection method for space or very high altitudes, while more traditional ejection methods are used at lower altitudes.

Also the time Hikaru made a failed escape on Breetai's ship and Isamu jetted Wang out of the YF-19, yeah. Probably would assume the VF-14 would look different since its canopy isn't enclosed and probably just less alien-y in general. Although considering how NUNS actually treat their Zentradi pilots like people, does make me wonder if the Rhea would have something of the sort despite being a battlesuit, or if the Neo Glaug could fit one for macronized pilots.

56 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'd love to see them go back to the late 2010s or 2020s and show us the heyday of the 2nd Generation VFs before they were replaced by the VF-11.

 

You'd be SPOILED with choices if a series goes in that era; disregarding the ones we do know like the VF-4, VF-5000, Variable Glaug, etc. There's still unseen designs like the VF-5, the Advanced Valkyrie designs that were semi-accepted into Macross continuity, and the first variable attackers and bombers. 

59 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or go back to the late 2040s and 2050 and show us the Second Unification War.

4 minutes ago, twich said:

I too would love to see some of the gaps filled in. Second Unification War sounds like a good story to tell, also would go with the theme of VF vs VF combat.

Probably would help settle on VF-X2's position in the franchise's continuity, since that also happened within that war, whether it means it was the cause, a byproduct, or something else. Personally, It'd be nice to go with Seto's late 2020's timeframe or even the 2030s since the 2nd generation would still be in some use then alongside the VF-11 and VF-14 (with some extra ones like the VF-15 and VF-16,) or between the Second Unification War and Frontier to show how far and diverse government, military, and culture autonomy can go within the New UN sphere (and admittedly want a time where VF-171s aren't just cannon fodder)

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

That explains the audacity.

Yeah, from the description he has a bio-fiber optic peripheral nervous system similar to what the Meltrandi in DYRL? have.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though it makes me wonder; cyborgs can still pilot military craft after Frontier right? Just pushing specifically towards that direction is a no no that the NUNS had and Hemidall disagreed with.

Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!'s story has a lot of issues, and that's one.  Lady M's supposed influence and the developments she's supposedly banned doesn't really track with the events of past shows.

Macross Frontier, Macross the Ride, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, and Macross Chronicle present a layered approach to the legality of cybernetics.  Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet for Macross Galaxy indicates that research into practical cybernetic implants began after the First Space War using Zentradi implants as a starting point.  The New UN Government is said to have become concerned by the prospect of creating cybernetically-enhanced soldiers and enacted legislation to limit cybernetics research to the comparatively safe medical applications.  Macross Frontier and its audio dramas have some dialog that suggests that, beyond the galaxy-wide ban on "Cyber Grunts", individual emigrant governments have imposed their own restrictions on implant technology and surgery.  The technology was heavily restricted in the Macross Galaxy fleet until the mid-2040s, and its legalization was a hot button issue that led to civil unrest.  Macross Frontier is said to generally prohibit implant technology except for medically necessary organ and limb replacements.  Uroboros seems to have a more relaxed view, as we see Aisha Blanchett has a network terminal implant and Mei Leeron may be a full-body cyborg as she's got a personal VF-27.

Cybernetically-enhanced soldiers are prohibited under New UN Gov't law, but there doesn't seem to be anything stopping people with medical cybernetics or even some kinds of elective cybernetics from joining the armed forces or piloting military-grade VFs as a civilian.  Temjin of the NUNS 33rd Marines and Col. Todo of the NUNS VF-X Special Forces both have cybernetic eyes and network implants, and several Vanquish racers have medical cybernetics including full limb replacements (e.g. Team Shinsei's Oscar Brauhitsch).

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Also the time Hikaru made a failed escape on Breetai's ship and Isamu jetted Wang out of the YF-19, yeah. Probably would assume the VF-14 would look different since its canopy isn't enclosed and probably just less alien-y in general. Although considering how NUNS actually treat their Zentradi pilots like people, does make me wonder if the Rhea would have something of the sort despite being a battlesuit, or if the Neo Glaug could fit one for macronized pilots.

That's probably the reason the Queadluun-Rhea's cockpit is entirely within the torso, Regult-style, instead of having the pilot's legs inside the suit's legs.  That way the Regult could lose all four limbs and the pilot could still be unscathed.

The Neo Glaug designed for giants was not built for the New UN Forces, so it may not have had conventional escape measures.  Then again, its original pilot was also quite a bit smaller than a regular Zentradi due to being a child, so there may have been room.  Earth's reproduction of it is designed for miclones, so it definitely has conventional escape and survival measures.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

You'd be SPOILED with choices if a series goes in that era; disregarding the ones we do know like the VF-4, VF-5000, Variable Glaug, etc. There's still unseen designs like the VF-5, the Advanced Valkyrie designs that were semi-accepted into Macross continuity, and the first variable attackers and bombers. 

Probably would help settle on VF-X2's position in the franchise's continuity, since that also happened within that war, whether it means it was the cause, a byproduct, or something else. Personally, It'd be nice to go with Seto's late 2020's timeframe or even the 2030s since the 2nd generation would still be in some use then alongside the VF-11 and VF-14 (with some extra ones like the VF-15 and VF-16,) or between the Second Unification War and Frontier to show how far and diverse government, military, and culture autonomy can go within the New UN sphere (and admittedly want a time where VF-171s aren't just cannon fodder)

6 hours ago, twich said:

I too would love to see some of the gaps filled in. Second Unification War sounds like a good story to tell, also would go with the theme of VF vs VF combat.

Twich

It really feels like it'd be a good idea to do the Second Unification War, considering how important that event has turned out to be to Macross Frontier, Macross 30, and Macross Delta's events... not to mention the implication that Max was a main mover behind the pro-autonomy forces and the leader of Vindirance may have been one of his daughters under a paper thin alias, and that King Grammier of Windermere's worldview was shaped heavily by his own participation in the war when he was in his prime.

[twich]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, from the description he has a bio-fiber optic peripheral nervous system similar to what the Meltrandi in DYRL? have.

 

Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!'s story has a lot of issues, and that's one.  Lady M's supposed influence and the developments she's supposedly banned doesn't really track with the events of past shows.

Macross Frontier, Macross the Ride, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, and Macross Chronicle present a layered approach to the legality of cybernetics.  Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet for Macross Galaxy indicates that research into practical cybernetic implants began after the First Space War using Zentradi implants as a starting point.  The New UN Government is said to have become concerned by the prospect of creating cybernetically-enhanced soldiers and enacted legislation to limit cybernetics research to the comparatively safe medical applications.  Macross Frontier and its audio dramas have some dialog that suggests that, beyond the galaxy-wide ban on "Cyber Grunts", individual emigrant governments have imposed their own restrictions on implant technology and surgery.  The technology was heavily restricted in the Macross Galaxy fleet until the mid-2040s, and its legalization was a hot button issue that led to civil unrest.  Macross Frontier is said to generally prohibit implant technology except for medically necessary organ and limb replacements.  Uroboros seems to have a more relaxed view, as we see Aisha Blanchett has a network terminal implant and Mei Leeron may be a full-body cyborg as she's got a personal VF-27.

Cybernetically-enhanced soldiers are prohibited under New UN Gov't law, but there doesn't seem to be anything stopping people with medical cybernetics or even some kinds of elective cybernetics from joining the armed forces or piloting military-grade VFs as a civilian.  Temjin of the NUNS 33rd Marines and Col. Todo of the NUNS VF-X Special Forces both have cybernetic eyes and network implants, and several Vanquish racers have medical cybernetics including full limb replacements (e.g. Team Shinsei's Oscar Brauhitsch).

 

That's probably the reason the Queadluun-Rhea's cockpit is entirely within the torso, Regult-style, instead of having the pilot's legs inside the suit's legs.  That way the Regult could lose all four limbs and the pilot could still be unscathed.

The Neo Glaug designed for giants was not built for the New UN Forces, so it may not have had conventional escape measures.  Then again, its original pilot was also quite a bit smaller than a regular Zentradi due to being a child, so there may have been room.  Earth's reproduction of it is designed for miclones, so it definitely has conventional escape and survival measures.

 

It really feels like it'd be a good idea to do the Second Unification War, considering how important that event has turned out to be to Macross Frontier, Macross 30, and Macross Delta's events... not to mention the implication that Max was a main mover behind the pro-autonomy forces and the leader of Vindirance may have been one of his daughters under a paper thin alias, and that King Grammier of Windermere's worldview was shaped heavily by his own participation in the war when he was in his prime.

I thought that Macross 7 had a long list of different mecha that was part of its content.  The Second Unification War had just about every mecha up to that point in it, if I remember my playthrough of the title(Macross VF-X2) about 20 years ago or so.  We might get to see Bandai make a VF-11B or C, VAB-2, VF-9, VF-14, VF-22S, the list goes on and on......

Twich

[TG Remix]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!'s story has a lot of issues, and that's one.  Lady M's supposed influence and the developments she's supposedly banned doesn't really track with the events of past shows.

 

Yeah was kinda confused considering the rest of the material. But oh well, if we weren't going to have confirmation on Lady M's whole thing there, it's probably gonna be never.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's probably the reason the Queadluun-Rhea's cockpit is entirely within the torso, Regult-style, instead of having the pilot's legs inside the suit's legs.  That way the Regult could lose all four limbs and the pilot could still be unscathed.

Really? Somehow never noticed that. Would make sense considering how thin the limbs are on the Rhea. Although I'd assume like with the Regult it'd make it a bit more cramped than piloting the Rau.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Neo Glaug designed for giants was not built for the New UN Forces, so it may not have had conventional escape measures.  Then again, its original pilot was also quite a bit smaller than a regular Zentradi due to being a child, so there may have been room.  Earth's reproduction of it is designed for miclones, so it definitely has conventional escape and survival measures.

With the Variable Glaug I can see it. I was more referring to the Neo Glaug bis from The Ride which both giant and miclone pilots was built for the New UN forces. Then again it still says only a small/petite Meltradi could bring out its true potential, so maybe that still tracks.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It really feels like it'd be a good idea to do the Second Unification War, considering how important that event has turned out to be to Macross Frontier, Macross 30, and Macross Delta's events... not to mention the implication that Max was a main mover behind the pro-autonomy forces and the leader of Vindirance may have been one of his daughters under a paper thin alias, and that King Grammier of Windermere's worldview was shaped heavily by his own participation in the war when he was in his prime.

How is Macross 30's story influenced by the war? And on a side note it's kinda fascinating to me that a game that involves time travel as an excuse to bring characters from every era somehow is one of the most rich in terms of world building and lore; still holding out hope for more translation efforts get to that and The Ride.

 

7 hours ago, twich said:

I thought that Macross 7 had a long list of different mecha that was part of its content.  The Second Unification War had just about every mecha up to that point in it, if I remember my playthrough of the title(Macross VF-X2) about 20 years ago or so.  We might get to see Bandai make a VF-11B or C, VAB-2, VF-9, VF-14, VF-22S, the list goes on and on......

It's the reason why the Plus-7 era is my absolute favorite in terms of mecha designs; so much variety that I feel is a bit lacking compared to Frontier and Delta. And I'm aware it's due to story reasons for Frontier and how 3D modeling is more expensive and you can't rely on anime magic like with a lot of the designs before, but it still feels different either way.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, twich said:

I thought that Macross 7 had a long list of different mecha that was part of its content.  The Second Unification War had just about every mecha up to that point in it, if I remember my playthrough of the title(Macross VF-X2) about 20 years ago or so.  We might get to see Bandai make a VF-11B or C, VAB-2, VF-9, VF-14, VF-22S, the list goes on and on......

Games and novels tend to be much less restrained when it comes to incorporating a large number of different mechanical designs into their stories.

IMO, there are few titles that demonstrate that principle quite as effectively as Bandai Namco's adaptation of the Mobile Suit Gundam UC light novel into an OVA.  The huge number of niche, background, and MSV designs that narrative included ended up turning the OVA into an obscure gunpla free-for-all.  Macross Digital Mission VF-X, Macross VF-X2, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, and Macross the Ride all include practically every major model of Variable Fighter that existed in the setting at the time they were created.  I guess it's easier to pull off if you don't have to draw them at all or you only have to model it once and can just reskin it thereafter.  

If we do get an adaptation of the Second Unification War, I imagine it'll probably have a much more limited selection of Variable Fighters in use to spare the sanity of the animation team.  

 

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Yeah was kinda confused considering the rest of the material. But oh well, if we weren't going to have confirmation on Lady M's whole thing there, it's probably gonna be never.

IMO, Absolute Live!!!!!! is probably the weakest new Macross title of the last 25 years.  It's an unnecessary story that doesn't really add anything to Macross Delta as a whole or to the greater Macross setting.  It's pretty telling that the limited coverage the movie got in official publications also treats the film's events as pretty unnecessary and its new VF as cobbled-together trash.

Spoiler

No, really.  It was quite shocking to see Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus outright state that the titular aircraft is a hackjob of a customization to the point of the developer insisting it be called something different so as to not tar the name of the project it was supposed to be a prototype for by association.

That's like if Honda or Nissan phoned up a custom auto shop and said "You're not allowed to refer to the cars of ours that you customize by the original model name anymore because we don't want you dragging our brand down."

The terms of the distribution agreement between Big West and Harmony Gold probably put the kibosh on future Lady M shenanigans, since the movie created the Megaroad-01 connection and using the original cast is apparently off the table.

 

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

With the Variable Glaug I can see it. I was more referring to the Neo Glaug bis from The Ride which both giant and miclone pilots was built for the New UN forces. Then again it still says only a small/petite Meltradi could bring out its true potential, so maybe that still tracks.

Ah, yeah... I'd expect it's pretty cramped in there for a giant.

Then again, Temjin supposedly flew one in the novelization of Macross Frontier... poor bloke's on the big side, so he must've been INCREDIBLY uncomfortable.  Either that or he's just used to folding up like a pretzel.

 

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

How is Macross 30's story influenced by the war? And on a side note it's kinda fascinating to me that a game that involves time travel as an excuse to bring characters from every era somehow is one of the most rich in terms of world building and lore; still holding out hope for more translation efforts get to that and The Ride.

Pretty much everything after the Second Unification War is affected by the war... because that's what led to the devolution of more autonomy to individual emigrant governments, the reorganization of the New UN Forces to diminish the immense authority it once wielded (and abused), and of course contributed to the trauma that the game's villain carries which is driving his desire to hit the Reset button on history.  The broad authority delegated to the VF-X Special Forces to suppress anti-government forces and terrorists is what lets Colonel Todo and Havamal carry out as much of their plan as they did in secret and leverage local resources to arm the Bandits.

[TG Remix]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's pretty telling that the limited coverage the movie got in official publications also treats the film's events as pretty unnecessary and its new VF as cobbled-together trash.

  Reveal hidden contents

Ironically that probably adds to the VF-31 as my personal favorite of the 5th generation VFs. Not every hero valk needs to be put up on a pedestal as the bestest thing ever for only the main protagonists to be entitled to have like the VF-19 or VF-25, as much as I love the former.

 

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ah, yeah... I'd expect it's pretty cramped in there for a giant.

Then again, Temjin supposedly flew one in the novelization of Macross Frontier... poor bloke's on the big side, so he must've been INCREDIBLY uncomfortable.  Either that or he's just used to folding up like a pretzel.

Either that or the novelization is following the logic of the Neo Glaug being a lot closer to the regular Glaug in size and without no Battroid transformation, like it was in the game it debuted in. I have to keep in mind the Glaug was already cramped for Zentradi, much less for bigger ones like Kamujin.

 

 

Edited September 14 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Ironically that probably adds to the VF-31 as my personal favorite of the 5th generation VFs. Not every hero valk needs to be put up on a pedestal as the bestest thing ever for only the main protagonists to be entitled to have like the VF-19 or VF-25, as much as I love the former.

One of the details I often find myself nostalgic for from older Macross titles is the "hero" Valkyrie being the same model as the "cannon fodder" Valkyries.

Giving the protagonist(s) a unique Valkyrie was central to the premises of Macross Plus and Macross 7, so it was a lot easier to excuse.  What Macross Frontier and Macross Delta's writers did was pretty forced.  Macross Frontier handled it a bit better, I think, since SMS was explicitly recruiting top talent away from the New UN Forces.  Even then, it made them look kind of dickish when they made scornful remarks about the Frontier NUNS being unable to fight the Vajra effectively while the main difference was SMS using trial production next-gen Valkyries designed to fight the Vajra while the NUNS made do with the previous-gen mass production unit.  IMO it didn't become intolerable until Macross Delta, where the Xaos PMC division talks all kinds of sh*t about the local New UN Forces despite their most elite unit being four washouts from those very same local New UN Forces and the one real advantage they had being a monopoly on Walkure (to the detriment of everyone and everything else including their own objectives) rather than their next-gen Valkyries.

I'd love to see Macross get away from PMCs, and get back to the protagonists using the same models as the rank and file like in the original series and II... it says more about their skill if they're outperforming the background characters in the same model as opposed to one with twice or more the performance.

(That said, I do adore the VF-31A's design...)

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Either that or the novelization is following the logic of the Neo Glaug being a lot closer to the regular Glaug in size and without no Battroid transformation, like it was in the game it debuted in. I have to keep in mind the Glaug was already cramped for Zentradi, much less for bigger ones like Kamujin.

Or the writer just never bothered to consider the size of it and went with "Rule of Cool".

EIther way, it was a nice inclusion the same way it was in Macross the Ride.

(As a taller chap, I have a lot of sympathy for the Zentradi in terms of the lack of ergonomics in their mecha... I've had to pretzel my 2m tall arse into a Fiat 500e for work before, and it gave me an immense feeling of empathy for those poor Regult pilots.)

 

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One of the details I often find myself nostalgic for from older Macross titles is the "hero" Valkyrie being the same model as the "cannon fodder" Valkyries.

Giving the protagonist(s) a unique Valkyrie was central to the premises of Macross Plus and Macross 7, so it was a lot easier to excuse.  What Macross Frontier and Macross Delta's writers did was pretty forced.  Macross Frontier handled it a bit better, I think, since SMS was explicitly recruiting top talent away from the New UN Forces.  Even then, it made them look kind of dickish when they made scornful remarks about the Frontier NUNS being unable to fight the Vajra effectively while the main difference was SMS using trial production next-gen Valkyries designed to fight the Vajra while the NUNS made do with the previous-gen mass production unit.  IMO it didn't become intolerable until Macross Delta, where the Xaos PMC division talks all kinds of sh*t about the local New UN Forces despite their most elite unit being four washouts from those very same local New UN Forces and the one real advantage they had being a monopoly on Walkure (to the detriment of everyone and everything else including their own objectives) rather than their next-gen Valkyries.

I'd love to see Macross get away from PMCs, and get back to the protagonists using the same models as the rank and file like in the original series and II... it says more about their skill if they're outperforming the background characters in the same model as opposed to one with twice or more the performance.

(That said, I do adore the VF-31A's design...)

 

Or the writer just never bothered to consider the size of it and went with "Rule of Cool".

EIther way, it was a nice inclusion the same way it was in Macross the Ride.

(As a taller chap, I have a lot of sympathy for the Zentradi in terms of the lack of ergonomics in their mecha... I've had to pretzel my 2m tall arse into a Fiat 500e for work before, and it gave me an immense feeling of empathy for those poor Regult pilots.)

 

As would I; give the characters a chance to shine like Max and Hikaru did in standard valks instead of the ubermechs derived in spirit from Gundam.

Even the one I designed was intended to become a standard part of the UNS forces and not a "hero special" (albeit it was the prototype being tested for production runs).

[Seto Kaiba]

On 9/14/2024 at 9:39 PM, pengbuzz said:

As would I; give the characters a chance to shine like Max and Hikaru did in standard valks instead of the ubermechs derived in spirit from Gundam.

Hopefully Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! will remain Macross's one and only flirtation with that kind of thing.

It's not quite the same as what Bandai Namco's Gundam franchise does with its ongoing and infamous love affair with the Super Prototype trope.  In fairness to Gundam, though, that distinction is also a borderline technicality in the case of the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX.  

The Gundam franchise's Super Prototypes are not really prototypes.  In the UC, many are simply overengineered technology demonstrators meant to showcase and evaluate new technologies that might one day make their way into a different and much more economical next-generation Mobile Suit design.  Others are simply one-of-a-kind showpieces the creators of which built to be The Biggest Stick with no regard for practicality or mass production whatsoever.

The Macross franchise's few borderline Super Prototypes are (mostly) intended as real prototypes and aren't intended to be "Super".  The VF-25 and VF-31 are simply a next-gen production model that hasn't yet entered mass production, while the YF-29 and VF-31AX are (on paper) actual prototypes meant to be developed into a next-generation main VF and mass produced.  The YF-29 was a prototype that had reached a high level of completion, practically production-representative.  The VF-31AX is, at least per Variable Fighter Master File, an early experimental prototype made by converting an existing previous-gen aircraft where the conversion was rushed and incomplete and done under duress.  For both, the main thing that prevents them from advancing to production status is a supply chain issue.  They can't secure a large or steady supply of the ultra-high purity large fold quartz necessary to construct Fold Wave Systems.

They're still basically handled the same in-story, though... so the distinction doesn't matter as much in-story as it does on paper.

I'd love to go back to something more like the original series or II where the protagonists and the background characters are all flying the same machine.  Standing out by being THAT GOOD is way more impressive when you're not using a massive specs advantage to do it.

[aurance]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hopefully Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! will remain Macross's one and only flirtation with that kind of thing.

It's not quite the same as what Bandai Namco's Gundam franchise does with its ongoing and infamous love affair with the Super Prototype trope.  In fairness to Gundam, though, that distinction is also a borderline technicality in the case of the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX.  

The Gundam franchise's Super Prototypes are not really prototypes.  In the UC, many are simply overengineered technology demonstrators meant to showcase and evaluate new technologies that might one day make their way into a different and much more economical next-generation Mobile Suit design.  Others are simply one-of-a-kind showpieces the creators of which built to be The Biggest Stick with no regard for practicality or mass production whatsoever.

The Macross franchise's few borderline Super Prototypes are (mostly) intended as real prototypes and aren't intended to be "Super".  The VF-25 and VF-31 are simply a next-gen production model that hasn't yet entered mass production, while the YF-29 and VF-31AX are (on paper) actual prototypes meant to be developed into a next-generation main VF and mass produced.  The YF-29 was a prototype that had reached a high level of completion, practically production-representative.  The VF-31AX is, at least per Variable Fighter Master File, an early experimental prototype made by converting an existing previous-gen aircraft where the conversion was rushed and incomplete and done under duress.  For both, the main thing that prevents them from advancing to production status is a supply chain issue.  They can't secure a large or steady supply of the ultra-high purity large fold quartz necessary to construct Fold Wave Systems.

They're still basically handled the same in-story, though... so the distinction doesn't matter as much in-story as it does on paper.

I'd love to go back to something more like the original series or II where the protagonists and the background characters are all flying the same machine.  Standing out by being THAT GOOD is way more impressive when you're not using a massive specs advantage to do it.

This "Gundam" disparity is somewhat mitigated in my mind because the Federal standard units (VF-24 and others, presumably) are supposed to be wtfcrazypowerful, at least according to the background information that you've mentioned in the past. All these "super" fighters are just playing catch-up with Earth standard tech, right?

(I don't necessarily believe the background info jives with the narrative intent on screen, but that's a separate issue.)

Edited September 16 by aurance

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, aurance said:

This "Gundam" disparity is somewhat mitigated in my mind because the Federal standard units (VF-24 and others, presumably) are supposed to be wtfcrazypowerful, at least according to the background information that you've mentioned in the past. All these "super" fighters are just playing catch-up with Earth standard tech, right?

(I don't necessarily believe the background info jives with the narrative intent on screen, but that's a separate issue.)

The production 5th Gen VFs are all based on the YF-24 directly or indirectly, with less capable or different local technology substituting for the more advanced Earth tech that the central New UN Forces and New UN Gov't decided not to share in full.  On paper, the VF-24's supposed to be the most powerful 5th Gen production VF.

Moving the YF-29 and YF-30 to 6th Gen frames a number of statements made about them in a slightly different context, particularly statements about the YF-29 being "developed to surpass the YF-24" and "The Strongest Valkyrie".  Pretty much all of their performance improvement vs. the 5th Gen designs is tied up in their use of fold quartz and fold wave resonance effects.  It's let those designs leapfrog ahead of production aircraft performance-wise, at the expense of basically being something that can't be mass-produced... yet.

[TG Remix]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Gundam franchise's Super Prototypes are not really prototypes.  In the UC, many are simply overengineered technology demonstrators meant to showcase and evaluate new technologies that might one day make their way into a different and much more economical next-generation Mobile Suit design.  Others are simply one-of-a-kind showpieces the creators of which built to be The Biggest Stick with no regard for practicality or mass production whatsoever.

Did not stop attempts with varying levels of success like the Zeta Plus lineage and the compromises the ZZ production types had to make. Honestly makes the F91 and Victory's limited production more surprising all things considered.

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'd love to go back to something more like the original series or II where the protagonists and the background characters are all flying the same machine.  Standing out by being THAT GOOD is way more impressive when you're not using a massive specs advantage to do it.

Or even (personally) better; have the protagonists have older variable craft fighting those a generation or two higher and have them perform well due to their own skills in flying or tactics and knowing the playing field. Though that'd take a lot since many mecha franchises struggle to keep older designs relevant unless it's tied to a major or main character.

 

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The production 5th Gen VFs are all based on the YF-24 directly or indirectly, with less capable or different local technology substituting for the more advanced Earth tech that the central New UN Forces and New UN Gov't decided not to share in full.  On paper, the VF-24's supposed to be the most powerful 5th Gen production VF.

Surprised we never see a stock VF-24 physically, export detuned or not, since it seems like the VF-25's design but with delta wings. Though from my previous comment, I'm wondering if any VF generation before it can match its specs, unless the Fold Quartz and EX-Gear make it that much ahead from anything else.

Speaking of highly customized/designed variable fighters, I'm wondering about the stock VF-11MAXL; since In the weaponry of Mylene's, it has the pinpoint barrier system like the VF-19. I'd assume it was a Sound Force thing only except Ray's and Veffidas doesn't have it on their VF-17T Custom at all. So I'm assuming that is either something the VF-11MAXL has in general or something that can be ordered to be added by the pilot's order like the unit's manufactured in general.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Did not stop attempts with varying levels of success like the Zeta Plus lineage and the compromises the ZZ production types had to make. Honestly makes the F91 and Victory's limited production more surprising all things considered.

"Varying levels of success" in that case still being single digit numbers of one-off test units that never made it to mass production.  I think the single largest lot mentioned was the six Zeta Plus A1s that were delivered to Karaba, and most of those were subsequently converted into one-offs.

The only one to actually reach true mass production was, IIRC, the ReZEL... which is not even really a Zeta Gundam derivative.  It's a tarted up ReGZ, which was another overpriced flop that saw only a tiny number of demonstrators produced despite basically being the GM version of the Zeta 1.

(I think the only UC title where Gundams are truly mass-produced as a main MS is Victory... and even that is watered down a bit subsequently.)

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Or even (personally) better; have the protagonists have older variable craft fighting those a generation or two higher and have them perform well due to their own skills in flying or tactics and knowing the playing field. Though that'd take a lot since many mecha franchises struggle to keep older designs relevant unless it's tied to a major or main character.

We've nominally had that... in Macross 7, with the 37th fleet VF-11s fighting the Varauta Fz-109s that were basically Gen 3.5 equivalent at the very least.  

That's one area where the novels, manga, and games excel.  Like showing the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army uses a mixture of older models in normal duty including upgraded VF-9s and VF-17s, and even some build-under-license VF-19Cs.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Surprised we never see a stock VF-24 physically, export detuned or not, since it seems like the VF-25's design but with delta wings. Though from my previous comment, I'm wondering if any VF generation before it can match its specs, unless the Fold Quartz and EX-Gear make it that much ahead from anything else.

On specs, I doubt anything short of an upgraded VF-19 or VF-22 can match a 5th Generation VF in combat because their acceleration performance is so much higher and they're not maneuver-capped by the pilot's g-limits the way their 4th Generation predecessors are.  

Isamu's VF-19 Custom from Sayonara no Tsubasa is said to have extremely high maneuverability performance, though that owes quite a bit to its unstable flight control program and its frankly insane pilot.  We did get to see Alto take on Ozma using a VF-171EX, which is basically a 4.5 Gen vs a 5th Gen... though Ozma's machine was operating with lower than normal mobility thanks to the Armored Pack it had equipped and it still won despite both being extremely talented pilots.

I'm not surprised we haven't gotten to see a stock VF-24 directly in the animation.  After all, the Central NUNS are basically the Biggest Stick.  Exactly what they get up to is never specified, but they apparently don't get involved in tiffs between emigrant governments because their bad behavior in the Second Unification Wars (Macross VF-X2) led to major reforms that put them on a much shorter leash and prevents them from interfering in politically difficult conflicts like that.  The few times we've seen representatives of a central New UN Forces unit they've basically been Power Overwhelming.  Colonel Todo's VF-X Special Forces unit more or less took over an entire planet with a single squadron and an extremely well-executed Bavarian fire drill.  Cromwell went off the radar with a single Battle-class and, after picking up some next-gen unmanned fighters, essentially took over an entire star cluster in just days with a single ship.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of highly customized/designed variable fighters, I'm wondering about the stock VF-11MAXL; since In the weaponry of Mylene's, it has the pinpoint barrier system like the VF-19. I'd assume it was a Sound Force thing only except Ray's and Veffidas doesn't have it on their VF-17T Custom at all. So I'm assuming that is either something the VF-11MAXL has in general or something that can be ordered to be added by the pilot's order like the unit's manufactured in general.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "stock" VF-11MAXL.  

What little is said about it has indicated that it's not so much a true variant as a catch-all designation for a series of one-off custom machines based on the VF-11B/C and built to order for specific top ace pilots.  There are supposedly less than a dozen of them in existence, though it's not clear from the material if that means just in the Macross 7 fleet or in general.  Either way, vanishingly tiny production numbers for a machine that's explicitly custom made for each pilot.  A lot of Mylene's VF-11MAXL Custom is said to be expensive custom hardware, so I'd assume that was one custom option she requested.  Quite a few of the parts are said to have been custom-machined to Mylene's request by the an ultra-high end luxury car company.

[pengbuzz]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hopefully Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! will remain Macross's one and only flirtation with that kind of thing.

It's not quite the same as what Bandai Namco's Gundam franchise does with its ongoing and infamous love affair with the Super Prototype trope.  In fairness to Gundam, though, that distinction is also a borderline technicality in the case of the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX.  

The Gundam franchise's Super Prototypes are not really prototypes.  In the UC, many are simply overengineered technology demonstrators meant to showcase and evaluate new technologies that might one day make their way into a different and much more economical next-generation Mobile Suit design.  Others are simply one-of-a-kind showpieces the creators of which built to be The Biggest Stick with no regard for practicality or mass production whatsoever.

The Macross franchise's few borderline Super Prototypes are (mostly) intended as real prototypes and aren't intended to be "Super".  The VF-25 and VF-31 are simply a next-gen production model that hasn't yet entered mass production, while the YF-29 and VF-31AX are (on paper) actual prototypes meant to be developed into a next-generation main VF and mass produced.  The YF-29 was a prototype that had reached a high level of completion, practically production-representative.  The VF-31AX is, at least per Variable Fighter Master File, an early experimental prototype made by converting an existing previous-gen aircraft where the conversion was rushed and incomplete and done under duress.  For both, the main thing that prevents them from advancing to production status is a supply chain issue.  They can't secure a large or steady supply of the ultra-high purity large fold quartz necessary to construct Fold Wave Systems.

They're still basically handled the same in-story, though... so the distinction doesn't matter as much in-story as it does on paper.

I'd love to go back to something more like the original series or II where the protagonists and the background characters are all flying the same machine.  Standing out by being THAT GOOD is way more impressive when you're not using a massive specs advantage to do it.

Right? The "super enhancement" on those mechs are the ones in the pilot's seat.