Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Master Dex]

Basara is so good that Max even gives him props (not to his face though) but stops short of saying he's better than himself. 

The part that got me was when he flew a VT-1C in Dynamite 7 by nudging the flight stick with his acoustic guitar.... Like it's just that simple!

Edited May 17 by Master Dex

[Areoborg]

On the topic of super prototypes, if the super-prototype has a bad habit of crashing and injuring/killing the test pilot (who are, by their nature, highly skilled pilots in their own right), so it gets nerfed in order to make it, you know, USABLE, is that still considered a Super Prototype, or a flawed prototype that needed to be fixed?  The YF-19 went through four test pilots before they got to Isamu, and both we and him had to wait until OVA 2 because the YF-19 was in the factory being put back together when he arrived to replace what was left of the last test pilot.

[Seto Kaiba]

32 minutes ago, Areoborg said:

On the topic of super prototypes, if the super-prototype has a bad habit of crashing and injuring/killing the test pilot (who are, by their nature, highly skilled pilots in their own right), so it gets nerfed in order to make it, you know, USABLE, is that still considered a Super Prototype, or a flawed prototype that needed to be fixed? 

Hrm... that's a good question.  I'd argue that it's possible for a design to be both as long as it meets the definition of both.

I don't think there's a legitimate example in Macross, but I can think of at least a few from Gundam.

Spoiler

New Mobile Report Gundam Wing's Tallgeese and Wing Gundam Zero are pretty good examples IMO.  The Tallgeese was the prototype for OZ's Leo MS and had significantly higher performance and vastly heavier armament, but its performance was SO high that it tended to maim or kill its test pilots with acceleration g-forces so its performance was dialed way back for production.  The Wing Gundam Zero was the prototype for the five Operation Meteor Gundams and arguably the Epyon too, and it had significantly better performance than any of them, stupidly huge firepower, and its amazing cutting-edge situational awareness technology had every so slight 100% chance to drive you completely stark raving mad... which is a heck of a flaw.  (Never mind that one test pilot who just straight up disappeared with fans joking that the Zero straight-up ate him.)

Mobile Suit Gundam: the Witch from Mercury's Gundams pretty much all qualify.  The Lfrith/Aerial and Calibarn were both Ochs Earth prototypes with incredibly high specs that had the ever so slight drawback of frying your goddamn brain if you used them... a serious flaw the devs were actively working on before the regulators overseeing the industry decided to have them murdered for their science crimes.  The Pharact probably counts too.

Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ's titular ZZ Gundam probably counts as well.  It's massively powerful and has weapons that make a capital ship's cannons look like a squeaky fart, but it's so structurally complex that it'll break down if you breathe too heavily near it and its massive cannon drains enough power to basically immobilize it.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Areoborg said:

The YF-19 went through four test pilots before they got to Isamu, and both we and him had to wait until OVA 2 because the YF-19 was in the factory being put back together when he arrived to replace what was left of the last test pilot.

True... the YF-19 was a hot mess.

The four previous test pilots didn't exactly get to resign either... two of Isamu's four predecessors died in test accidents and the other two ended up so badly injured they couldn't continue to serve as test pilots on the project.  Not to mention the No.1 prototype was damaged beyond repair and the No.2 prototype was smashed up badly enough to be sent back to the factory twice.

(And if you take Master File's word for it, it didn't end there either with the No.3 prototype apparently having several loss-of-control related accidents.)

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

True... the YF-19 was a hot mess.

The four previous test pilots didn't exactly get to resign either... two of Isamu's four predecessors died in test accidents and the other two ended up so badly injured they couldn't continue to serve as test pilots on the project.  Not to mention the No.1 prototype was damaged beyond repair and the No.2 prototype was smashed up badly enough to be sent back to the factory twice.

(And if you take Master File's word for it, it didn't end there either with the No.3 prototype apparently having several loss-of-control related accidents.)

I'm wondering if after all of that they only adopted the VF-19 and tried to make them more pilot-friendly through the VF-19F and S types in a extreme sunk-cost fallacy situation by that point lmao.

[JB0]

14 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I'm wondering if after all of that they only adopted the VF-19 and tried to make them more pilot-friendly through the VF-19F and S types in a extreme sunk-cost fallacy situation by that point lmao.

I think it was more a case of caught with their pants down. They had WANTED the -19 and -21 to both fail and the Ghost would be the new fighter. But then it got hacked by a vocaloid with a god complex and they decided "you know, maybe we DO want a human in the chain somewhere", and their options were limited to the -19(wildly unstable widowmaker) or the -21(pilot's brain is part of the computer and ho boy are some pilots crazy!)

[Seto Kaiba]

40 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I'm wondering if after all of that they only adopted the VF-19 and tried to make them more pilot-friendly through the VF-19F and S types in a extreme sunk-cost fallacy situation by that point lmao.

The way it's written up, it does kind of have that vibe... albeit not from the New UN Forces side.

Rather, it's Shinsei Industry who seem to be absolutely dead set on finding some way to make the VF-19 marketable no matter how long it takes.

After the military's plan to transition to the VF-19A went down in flames and procurement switched to Special Forces use only, Shinsei still kept trying to find a way to fix the issues and make the VF-19 a viable 4th Generation main VF.  They radically changed the design starting from the VF-19F, they swapped out basically every part they reasonably could, and while they managed to make it accessible to more pilots it never really reached the level of being a viable main fighter.  Even as late as 2058, fully 17 years after the VF-19 bombed out of the Spacy's service, they were still selling their own management on plans to refine and improve the VF-19 like Isamu's VF-19EF/A.

How much of that was a sincere belief in the design's viability and how much was simply sour grapes over having lost the main fighter contract for the first time in the company's history is unknown.

General Galaxy definitely realized it was a sore spot for them, which led to some unsubtle trolling with the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army building a small number of VF-19C's under license for one of their elite units as a way to show they could build a better VF-19 than Shinsei could.

 

 

22 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I think it was more a case of caught with their pants down. They had WANTED the -19 and -21 to both fail and the Ghost would be the new fighter. But then it got hacked by a vocaloid with a god complex and they decided "you know, maybe we DO want a human in the chain somewhere", and their options were limited to the -19(wildly unstable widowmaker) or the -21(pilot's brain is part of the computer and ho boy are some pilots crazy!)

Not as such.

Project Super Nova wasn't set up to fail from the outset.  The New UN Forces really did want those fighters.  The program's cancellation came when the pro-unmanned fighter faction among the military brass won out and pushed for adoption of the X-9 Ghost instead... only to end up with enough egg on their face to kill an entire Zentradi main fleet through high cholesterol when Sharon Apple hijacked the prototype and went on a rampage through Macross City.

It's almost like Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy were so preoccupied with chasing the highest possible performance to outdo each other that they forgot the aircraft they were developing had to have a pilot.  They achieved stunning performance to impress the military brass and completely blew past the physical endurance limits of the human body.  So once the dust settled on the VF-19's botched phase-in plan, the military threw up their hands and said "OK, maybe we went a bit nuts with the requirements...".

[kajnrig]

You're all wrong. As it turns out:

On 5/12/2024 at 10:59 PM, kajnrig said:

I think it was one or both of you I spoke to a while ago (probably around the time the Hasegawa Armored Battroid was announced) about the anime-style hands and how they bother me, too. I had to come to peace with the laughably and literally sketchy lineart hands by headcanoning that they're "traditionally" mechanical hand skeletons covered in spongy and/or expansive materials that can squeeze into a small form factor for stowage. But just imagine the intricate mechanisms and tolerances you would have to design into that to make sure that they don't reliably catch on anything and tear while going through repeated transformations.

Or maybe they do, and that becomes an infamous design flaw of the VF-1. Mechanics complain en masse about re-stuffing filling and duct-taping holes after nearly every mission, and it becomes standard practice to replace entire manipulators instead. At the height of the problem, otherwise perfectly useful hands are being tossed every two or three sorties. Penny pinchers realize that nearly 15% of the NUNS procurement budget is dedicated to purchasing or refurbishing manipulator units. NUNS and Northrom get into a tizzy over it, it becomes a whole political scandal that sacks a prominent chicken down company and several generals, and all future VF designs are mandated to follow strict manipulator design specs. General Galaxy and the YF-21 lose Project Super Nova because, as one GG engineer puts it, "our wings could look like anything, but the brass could only see balloon hands."

Indeed, the gate of history turns on small hinges.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

You're all wrong. As it turns out:

... and now I'm headed down the VF hand design rabbit hole.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not sure what I expected, but Master File predictably offered an explanation of the VF-1's Block 1-5 hand design and it's just a rounded metal housing around the same single axis articulations that the square-edged hand has.

[Knight26]

Well, the redesign of the YF/VF-19 and YF-21/VF-22 have real-world examples.  The YF-22, YF-23, X-32, and X-35 were technology demonstrators and were never meant to be representative of the final production aircraft.  The YF-22 is actually a good example since we did lose one during testing due to Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO), which is a major concern in any fly-by-wire aircraft. I even worked on the Flight Test Program where the goal was to limit PIO as much as possible.  

Now, we do not know why the YF-19 prototypes crashed; it could have been for any number of reasons.  But consider this: the YF-19 had one the most complicated transformations to date at the time (In the real world, yes, the SV-51, VF-9, and other advanced Valkyrie designs had some pretty origami transformations).  So, the crashes could very well have been a result of that locking up or the pilots initiating them at too low an altitude or other PIO-like issues.  The fact two pilots were killed leads me to believe that they were both aboard the first prototype when it was destroyed; perhaps one was acting as the onboard Flight Test Engineer (FTE) in the back seat.  The other two point to an issue with the flight control computer not being properly attuned, which tracks with what we know about the Chief Engineer wanting to do anything and everything to prove his design was the absolute best.

Once selected, the -19 would have undergone an extensive redesign for the production version, eventually leading to the VF-19F/S/P/Kai.  However, like RQ-4A Globalhawk, there was an immediate need for the VF-19A to go into Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) to fill a gap in the UN Spacy Space Forces.  These would likely have been derated in comparison to the YF-19 to make it more manageable for the average pilot, likely by adjusting the engine output, limiters, transformation mechanism, cockpit, and Tactical Operational Profile.  

Maybe the Master File has a better explanation for the redesign and why the YF-19 flight test program faced so many issues, but that has always been how I looked at it.

[Seto Kaiba]

47 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Now, we do not know why the YF-19 prototypes crashed; it could have been for any number of reasons. 

Macross Chronicle, Great Mechanics, etc. have pointed to two specific design issues that are echoed as root causes of the testing accidents in Variable Fighter Master File.

1. The exceptional maneuverability the YF-19 achieved via its inherently unstable forward swept wing design and its powerful next-gen FF-2200 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines was ultimately a double-edged sword.  Its sensitive handling and powerful acceleration combined to make it easy for pilots to unintentionally exceed their physical tolerance for g-forces (esp. lateral g-forces) and lose control of the aircraft.
2. Shinsei Industry built the YF-19 No.1 and No.2 prototypes with the latest previous-gen ANGIRAS-GFW204 airframe control AI.  It's said that this control AI system (which is presented as a high-end VF-11 control AI in Macross R) wasn't able to keep up with the YF-19's higher performance.

 

47 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

The fact two pilots were killed leads me to believe that they were both aboard the first prototype when it was destroyed; perhaps one was acting as the onboard Flight Test Engineer (FTE) in the back seat.  The other two point to an issue with the flight control computer not being properly attuned, which tracks with what we know about the Chief Engineer wanting to do anything and everything to prove his design was the absolute best.

AFAIK, official media gives us no guidance on what the circumstances of the fatal and injurious testing accidents the YF-19 encoutered were.

Master File offers a brief description of the YF-19's first test accident and first testing fatality.  It asserts that YF-19-1 crashed on its second test flight out of Eden's New Edwards Test Flight Center on 30 July 2039, which ultimately cost the life of Cpt. Juuso Grennan.  Cpt. Grennan lost control of the aircraft during a test sequence (impl. due to a control AI issue) and ejected late due to trying to regain control of the aircraft.  He did successfully escape the aircraft, but having ejected low and with the nose pointing down he ended up hitting a slope in a mountainous region on landing and sustained severe injuries that ultimately cost him his life.

 

47 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Once selected, the -19 would have undergone an extensive redesign for the production version, eventually leading to the VF-19F/S/P/Kai.  However, like RQ-4A Globalhawk, there was an immediate need for the VF-19A to go into Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) to fill a gap in the UN Spacy Space Forces.  These would likely have been derated in comparison to the YF-19 to make it more manageable for the average pilot, likely by adjusting the engine output, limiters, transformation mechanism, cockpit, and Tactical Operational Profile.  

Once selected, there were a number of additional YF-19 prototypes... official sources mention, I believe, a No.3 and No.4 prototype that used the new ARIEL airframe control AI that is production standard for 4th Gen VFs.  Master File mentions prototypes as high as No.8.  

After the final design was OK'd by the military, low rate initial production started on the VF-19A so that the first squadrons from the Earth NUNS could start transitioning to the new model.  The VF-19A had essentially the same specs as the YF-19 final prototype (and not appreciably different from the No.2 and No.3 prototypes), and once it started ending up in the hands of less-veteran pilots the problems started to become apparent.  Multiple loss of control accidents occurred during model conversion training and that combined with a number of other factors like the revised arms export restrictions and the VF-19's extremely high initial and operating costs to see the plans for widespread adoption of the VF-19A cancelled. 

Shinsei Industry tried to further refine the VF-19 to address the issues the military had reported, resulting in the development of the second production type (VF-19F/S type).  Their rival, General Galaxy, understood the assignment slightly differently and went back to the drawing board to prioritize easy handling, cost performance, and operational versatility in their next 4th Gen proposal and based it on the already-proven VF-17D Nightmare.  General Galaxy's proposal ultimately won out, and the VF-171 Nightmare Plus became the new 4th Generation main fighter to replace the failed VF-19A and the VF-19F/S became a Special Forces Valkyrie.

(It's ironic in a way that chronic envelope pushers General Galaxy finally beat Shinsei Industry's more conservative/play-it-safe design team by putting forward a design that was more conservative than Shinsei's.)

[Seto Kaiba]

So, I was poking at a few books here and there, and noticed a detail I'd never really paid any attention to before.

Kazutaka Miyatake's concept and design for the QF-3000E Ghost in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV anime was based on a SF novella series that he wrote while he was in graduate school.  He only ever published two of the planned three volumes in the science fiction fanzine Space Dust in 1978 and 1980, and they featured an unmanned (USAF?) ground attack aircraft.  The first volume, SUPERBIRD, featured a manned but mostly AI-controlled plane while the second, COPPELIA, a truly unmanned attacker that was fully AI-controlled.  The description suggests it was intended to be deployed as a parasite aircraft on a hypersonic missile, and then detach to strafe ground targets.  There's a bit of commentary about how the fully unmanned attacker in COPPELIA was meant to play on the fear of a weapon that blindly follows orders without reason or question.  The designs that were drawn for those novellas became the starting point for the QF-3000E when Kawamori asked Miyatake to design a drone.

(He also suggests Kawamori was unhappy with not being able to use the Ghost very much in Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and that that was a factor in the decision to use the unmanned Ghost X-9 as the "villain" in Macross Plus.)

I kinda wanna see if I can track down those issues of Space Dust for those novellas.

IMO it's also rather interesting that the fate of unmanned fighters in Macross ended up mirroring the concerns the unmanned fighter in COPPELIA was meant to invoke.  Sharon Apple's hijacking of the Ghost X-9 left the New UN Forces and New UN Gov't wondering what might happen if a fully-autonomous weapon like the AIF-X-9 Ghost were to take its literal orders to illogical extremes or to start acting under its own (faulty) judgement for some reason.

[Bolt]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So, I was poking at a few books here and there, and noticed a detail I'd never really paid any attention to before.

Kazutaka Miyatake's concept and design for the QF-3000E Ghost in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV anime was based on a SF novella series that he wrote while he was in graduate school.  He only ever published two of the planned three volumes in the science fiction fanzine Space Dust in 1978 and 1980, and they featured an unmanned (USAF?) ground attack aircraft.  The first volume, SUPERBIRD, featured a manned but mostly AI-controlled plane while the second, COPPELIA, a truly unmanned attacker that was fully AI-controlled.  The description suggests it was intended to be deployed as a parasite aircraft on a hypersonic missile, and then detach to strafe ground targets.  There's a bit of commentary about how the fully unmanned attacker in COPPELIA was meant to play on the fear of a weapon that blindly follows orders without reason or question.  The designs that were drawn for those novellas became the starting point for the QF-3000E when Kawamori asked Miyatake to design a drone.

(He also suggests Kawamori was unhappy with not being able to use the Ghost very much in Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and that that was a factor in the decision to use the unmanned Ghost X-9 as the "villain" in Macross Plus.)

I kinda wanna see if I can track down those issues of Space Dust for those novellas.

IMO it's also rather interesting that the fate of unmanned fighters in Macross ended up mirroring the concerns the unmanned fighter in COPPELIA was meant to invoke.  Sharon Apple's hijacking of the Ghost X-9 left the New UN Forces and New UN Gov't wondering what might happen if a fully-autonomous weapon like the AIF-X-9 Ghost were to take its literal orders to illogical extremes or to start acting under its own (faulty) judgement for some reason.

That's a gem of info you found there amigo!

[Seto Kaiba]

On 5/29/2024 at 6:19 PM, djivaldi7 said:

Interestingly enough, ghosts and squires have become a reality:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ngad-america-s-new-6th-generation-fighter-is-not-what-you-think/ar-BB1mvbz4?ocid=socialshare&pc=DCTS&cvid=b9332dd6741c4656bb124479dd76882e&ei=18

Thank you Macross for showing us the future!

That news is actually about ten years old now.

Next Generation Air Dominance requirements came out in '14, and multiple governments have been publicly working on unmanned "loyal wingman" systems since at least '15.  The US has been flying prototypes since at least March '19 (with the Kratos QX-58 Valkyrie). 

Mind you, the idea of unmanned escorts in fiction is a pretty old one too.  It goes back to at least the 1960s as far as I'm aware... and seems to have been the logical consequence of late 1910s and 1920s advances in remote control of vehicles via radio making their way into the commercial sector in the 1950s and a growing interest in the idea of AI and robotics kindled by 1940s developments in computing and popular fiction from writers like Isaac Asimov.  By the late 1960's and early 1970's the idea had enough traction to get used in Star Trek at least twice, with the most blatant example being Kirk's Enterprise using two unmanned Antares-class "robot ships" as wingmen against the Klingons.

 

That said, Macross didn't actually start doing "loyal wingman" style drones until 2008's Macross Frontier debuted the RVF-171 and RVF-25 acting as motherships for groups of QF-4000 Ghosts.

The Squire used by the VF-2SS Valkyrie II in Macross II: Lovers Again is not a true unmanned fighter like the Ghosts used in other Macross titles.  Rather than being an AI wingman capable of independent operation, Squires are "dumb" drones that are controlled remotely by the onboard computers of the Valkyrie II they're assigned to.  All of the thinking behind their operation is done by the Valkyrie II's computers, the Squire is just a remote weapons terminal.  That's why Macross II's official materials refer to Squire using a borrowed term from Gundam: they're Bits, not Ghosts... just controlled by computer over radio instead of via psychic waves from an ESPer.  The Macross II timeline version of the VF-4 had funnels ala Gundam too, though with the same computer-based control system.  (The distinction between funnels and bits in Macross appears to be exactly the same as in Gundam too.)

[DownIsUp]

Did the Vf-27 ever get adopted by NUNS, like the Yf-29 was, or is it a functionally extinct design now that the Galaxy is space dust? I know it was heavily optimized to the point only a cyborg could functionally operate it, but the Yf-29 was altered for use as a spec-ops aircraft so I wasn't sure if it also received a similar treatment.

[Seto Kaiba]

36 minutes ago, DownIsUp said:

Did the Vf-27 ever get adopted by NUNS, like the Yf-29 was, or is it a functionally extinct design now that the Galaxy is space dust? I know it was heavily optimized to the point only a cyborg could functionally operate it, but the Yf-29 was altered for use as a spec-ops aircraft so I wasn't sure if it also received a similar treatment.

It seems a reasonably safe bet that the VF-27 is not a lost/phantom design after 2059 given that several of them do show up in stories set years after the events of the Macross Frontier series/movies.

That said, both of the VF-27s we see after the events of Macross Frontier appear in side stories and are shown to be in the possession of (extremely well-connected) civilians.  If you don't count the generic VF-27 in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy and the unlockable Havamal colors for same, the only time we've seen it in a pure NUNS livery is in the VF-25's Master File.  (On page 27, by happy coincidence.)

The two we see in civilian hands are:

• Mei Leeron's personal VF-27γ in Macross 30.  The Uroboros Hunter's Guild boss seldom takes to the field, but when she does she's shown to have a VF-27γ Lucifer with a unique white and purple color scheme and Hunter's Guild markings.
• Ivan Tsari in Macross Delta Gaiden: Macross E.  The head of Zelgaar Heavy Industry is shown to have a personal VF-27γ Lucifer with "jet black" coloring that he uses during the events of the story in 2062.  He, unlike Mei Leeron, is also confirmed to be a full-body cyborg.

[TG Remix]

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, both of the VF-27s we see after the events of Macross Frontier appear in side stories and are shown to be in the possession of (extremely well-connected) civilians.  If you don't count the generic VF-27 in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy and the unlockable Havamal colors for same, the only time we've seen it in a pure NUNS livery is in the VF-25's Master File.  (On page 27, by happy coincidence.)

 

And here I thought the ban on cybernetics would make the VF-27 follow suit. I'd assume most NUNS territory probably wouldn't adopt it since either the VF-24 or VF-25 are more better options in flexibility.

In the same vein of antagonist, maybe illegal VFs, I'm almost certain aside from Fasces no one adopted the Varauta Army variable craft, almost definitely because of the Spiritia absorption beams and a little more because the Fz-109's base model VF-14 wasn't as popular as the VF-11. Although looking through the stats, comparing the M3 VF-14 and Fz-109F, the latter has a noticeably higher standard cruising speed (10,000 m Mach 4.5+ compared to 10,000 m Mach 3.8+) and I think it's a safe bet that the max cruising speed is much higher. It strikes me as odd since they both use the same type of Shinnakasu/Daimler FF-2770D thermonuclear turbine engines and P&W / Daimler HMM-5C thrusters, unless the airframe was modified to the extent that it can handle quicker speeds.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

And here I thought the ban on cybernetics would make the VF-27 follow suit.

One aspect of the period spanning the events of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta that is often overlooked in the face of the conflict itself is the rise of corporate power and the huge amount of influence those large corporations wield.

Macross Galaxy is the best/worst example, being a subsidary corporation of General Galaxy that was set up as a literal corporate state.  

With that kind of power behind them, it's not surprising that the wealthy and influential choose to flout the law whenever it becomes inconvenient like Ivan Tsari did.

How Mei Leeron, the relatively humble head of a mercenary NGO on a remote planet came by something like a VF-27... we'll never know.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I'd assume most NUNS territory probably wouldn't adopt it since either the VF-24 or VF-25 are more better options in flexibility.

Probably not, yeah.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

In the same vein of antagonist, maybe illegal VFs, I'm almost certain aside from Fasces no one adopted the Varauta Army variable craft, almost definitely because of the Spiritia absorption beams and a little more because the Fz-109's base model VF-14 wasn't as popular as the VF-11. Although looking through the stats, comparing the M3 VF-14 and Fz-109F, the latter has a noticeably higher standard cruising speed (10,000 m Mach 4.5+ compared to 10,000 m Mach 3.8+) and I think it's a safe bet that the max cruising speed is much higher. It strikes me as odd since they both use the same type of Shinnakasu/Daimler FF-2770D thermonuclear turbine engines and P&W / Daimler HMM-5C thrusters, unless the airframe was modified to the extent that it can handle quicker speeds.

Well, Fasces had certain incentives to use the Varauta models where possible.

They had control of the factory satellite that was producing them, so they didn't have to worry about issues with illegal procurement or little things like having to pay for them.  That they were also roughly comparable in performance to a VF-17 or VF-171 didn't hurt their feelings either I suspect.  

There probably wouldn't have been much of a push to adapt the Varauta forces improvements to the VF-14 and VA-14 given the timing involved.  Their performance was around the same as the Gen 3.5 VF-16 and VF-17 and inferior to the VF-19 and VF-22.  And just two years after the conflict ended the 4th Generation VF-171 debuted and began to replace the VF-11s and VF-14s in service at the time.

[TG Remix]

56 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One aspect of the period spanning the events of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta that is often overlooked in the face of the conflict itself is the rise of corporate power and the huge amount of influence those large corporations wield.

 

It does kinda remind me of Armored Core in that field, except a lot more dystopian and a lot more casualties in between events depending on the routes you take.

 

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Galaxy is the best/worst example, being a subsidary corporation of General Galaxy that was set up as a literal corporate state.  

You know Frontier and Delta focus so much on General Galaxy's shady business and connections, sometimes I wonder if Shinsei has some dirt and/or blood on their hands.

 

58 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There probably wouldn't have been much of a push to adapt the Varauta forces improvements to the VF-14 and VA-14 given the timing involved.  Their performance was around the same as the Gen 3.5 VF-16 and VF-17 and inferior to the VF-19 and VF-22.  And just two years after the conflict ended the 4th Generation VF-171 debuted and began to replace the VF-11s and VF-14s in service at the time.

Maybe as a part of a life extension service like what the VF-1X and similar variants went through, I can see it. Either that or as modified export craft like the VF-5000G and VF-19P. Heck looking deeper the Elgerzorene has the same max cruising speed as both the VF-17 and VF-171 at 30,000+ m Mach 21+. So maybe the Gustav isn't really all that different from the original craft and the VF-11 were just very unlucky to fight practically an army of 4th generation Valkyries.

 

[JB0]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It does kinda remind me of Armored Core in that field, except a lot more dystopian and a lot more casualties in between events depending on the routes you take.

Does that mean Sharon Apple's Ghost was Nineball?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

You know Frontier and Delta focus so much on General Galaxy's shady business and connections, sometimes I wonder if Shinsei has some dirt and/or blood on their hands.

I'm sure they have at least some... after all, Shinsei Industry is one of the oldest, most successful, and most influential corporations in Humanity's defense industry.

That's not a position you earn, or keep, without having at least a few skeletons in your closet.

We do know their predecessors Stonewell and Bellcom employed former Anti-Unification Alliance engineers from the SV-51 program after the Unification Wars.  That's how Alexei Kurakin, General Galaxy's cofounder, survived the war.  He was on Luna doing space testing on the VF-4 when everything went to pot.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Maybe as a part of a life extension service like what the VF-1X and similar variants went through, I can see it. Either that or as modified export craft like the VF-5000G and VF-19P. Heck looking deeper the Elgerzorene has the same max cruising speed as both the VF-17 and VF-171 at 30,000+ m Mach 21+. So maybe the Gustav isn't really all that different from the original craft and the VF-11 were just very unlucky to fight practically an army of 4th generation Valkyries.

Maybe... though the designs of that era are kind of a Lost Generation in terms of depiction in Macross works.

We only ever got to see the 3rd Generation on the way in in Macross M3 and on the way out in Macross 7.  

That said, I'm inclined to doubt that the VF-14 would've received the same kind of excessive service life extension the VF-1 got.  The VF-1's unending utility is practically a running joke, and the main reason it's stuck around as long as it has after being aged out of main military service is because civilian market VF/VT-1s are so ubiquitous that the military's Special Forces supposed use VF-1X derivatives because they're as close to inconspicuous as a 12+ meter tall transforming robot can be.

Macross Chronicle's descriptions of the Fz-109 series suggest that the Elgersoln's performance improvements owe a lot ot other areas beyond simply raw power... it's said that they made refinements to basically every system, though the transformation is specially noted to be much smoother than the original aircraft's due to their improvements.  The overall performance is said to greatly exceed the original VF-14's, which yeah... I guess makes the Macross 5 and Macross 7 fleet's VF-11s supremely unlucky to run into enemy forces who are fielding a Gen 3.5-equivalent as standard.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We do know their predecessors Stonewell and Bellcom employed former Anti-Unification Alliance engineers from the SV-51 program after the Unification Wars. 

Quick question for clarification: when you say "predecessors", do you mean they became Shinsei, or simply that they predated Shinsei?

[TG Remix]

10 hours ago, JB0 said:

Does that mean Sharon Apple's Ghost was Nineball?

Kinda lol. I need to actually play and follow the series.

 

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm sure they have at least some... after all, Shinsei Industry is one of the oldest, most successful, and most influential corporations in Humanity's defense industry.

That's not a position you earn, or keep, without having at least a few skeletons in your closet.

We do know their predecessors Stonewell and Bellcom employed former Anti-Unification Alliance engineers from the SV-51 program after the Unification Wars.  That's how Alexei Kurakin, General Galaxy's cofounder, survived the war.  He was on Luna doing space testing on the VF-4 when everything went to pot.

Now I'm imagining an extremely salty Shinsei engineer supporting Anti-UN groups because the NUNS turned down the VF-19 for widescale adoption, who may or may not care about the export laws enforced because of the VF-19's conception.

 

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Maybe... though the designs of that era are kind of a Lost Generation in terms of depiction in Macross works.

We only ever got to see the 3rd Generation on the way in in Macross M3 and on the way out in Macross 7. 

Honestly, I kinda like how we see some like the VF-5000 and VA-3 being used past their prime by the time we see them; it shows the passage of time in the Macross timeline without having to completely boil them down to just being old and useless. I still want to see a bit more about what happened between SDF and Plus, just to get more of a grasp on how big the world got since the advent of emigration fleets and planets.

EDIT: IIRC there was a tidbit in either The Ride or the Frontier novelization that even by 2058 the Macross Frontier fleet was still in the process of decommissioning their VF-11s, way long after the move to the VF-171.

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, I'm inclined to doubt that the VF-14 would've received the same kind of excessive service life extension the VF-1 got.  The VF-1's unending utility is practically a running joke, and the main reason it's stuck around as long as it has after being aged out of main military service is because civilian market VF/VT-1s are so ubiquitous that the military's Special Forces supposed use VF-1X derivatives because they're as close to inconspicuous as a 12+ meter tall transforming robot can be.

And that's not even mentioning the (un?)official SW-XAI Schneeblume that used the VF-1 as a reference for a stealth VF to pair up with the VF-17! Honestly, the moment I saw the VF-1EX in Delta with its own EX-Gear system I'm convinced those things will be a universal constant in the franchise.

If it means anything, the VF-14 is mentioned to have an airframe that's easy to maintain, so it seems like a sturdy machine that can last a bit more than some of its contemporaries, which probably explains why that and the VA-14 was popular with Zentradi pilots. Having a stealth system before it became the norm with the 4th generation VFs I think is a nice bonus too all things considered.

 

Edited June 2 by TG Remix

[camk4evr]

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Quick question for clarification: when you say "predecessors", do you mean they became Shinsei, or simply that they predated Shinsei?

Iirc Stonewell-bellcome merged with another company to become Shinsei. Assuming I'm not thinking of something else.

[Shawn]

Picked up the newest Hobby Japan, and in the back is a custom build of the Imai 1/720 Quel Quallie.
I knew it was big, but holy cow...it is BIG

look at the size of it compared to a regult, which towers of the vf-1 in size.  I think the radome hanging off at the bottom could fit on an Elintseeker.

No wonder Hikaru's single GPB VF-1J with all the little micro-missiles didn't do it in.
It is freaking massive.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Quick question for clarification: when you say "predecessors", do you mean they became Shinsei, or simply that they predated Shinsei?

They became Shinsei.

Shinsei Industry was formed in 2012 when VF-1 and VF-4 codevelopers Stonewell and Bellcom merged with each other and with FAST Pack and thermonuclear engine manufacturer Shinnakasu Heavy Industry.

General Galaxy was also formed by a merger of existing defense companies several years later in 2017.  The overtechnology research and development firm OTEC merged with other surviving defense industry companies.

 

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Now I'm imagining an extremely salty Shinsei engineer supporting Anti-UN groups because the NUNS turned down the VF-19 for widescale adoption, who may or may not care about the export laws enforced because of the VF-19's conception.

Obvious things like industrial espionage aside, the one illegal activity I'm fairly certain Shinsei Industry will have engaged in is covertly selling weapons to the anti-government forces during the Second Unification War.

(The obvious copout there being that said "anti-government" forces were actually the paramilitary volunteer forces of the pro-autonomy faction in the Second Unification War, the "good guys" backed by Max et. al. who were resisting the fascist abuse of governmental authority by the pro-centralization faction.  It's illegal, but nobody's going to prosecute the company because the pro-autonomy forces won.)

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Honestly, I kinda like how we see some like the VF-5000 and VA-3 being used past their prime by the time we see them; it shows the passage of time in the Macross timeline without having to completely boil them down to just being old and useless. I still want to see a bit more about what happened between SDF and Plus, just to get more of a grasp on how big the world got since the advent of emigration fleets and planets.

EDIT: IIRC there was a tidbit in either The Ride or the Frontier novelization that even by 2058 the Macross Frontier fleet was still in the process of decommissioning their VF-11s, way long after the move to the VF-171.

There's a limit to it, though...

No longer being the latest and greatest model doesn't mean a fighter immediately becomes useless.  Older models that have either recently been phased out or are in the process of being phased out can still be used in a lot of different capacities because they're not immediately obsolete.  We see this a few titles like Macross 7 Trash, where the Macross 7 fleet NUNS has a number of old VF-4's that it uses for things like training flights and evaluating experimental technologies.  They can still be updated and modernized up to a point, with engine swaps and avionics upgrades and the like.  

Not every government feels compelled to upgrade to the latest and greatest right away either.  Like in Macross Dynamite 7, the Zola Patrol were a police force for a government that generally believed in pacifism and didn't have a ton of money to throw around, so the export model VF-5000G suited their needs just fine.

With the exception of the VF-1, the point where retirement and replacement seems to be necessary is when a design is two generations old.  For instance, the Zola Patrol in Macross Dynamite 7 was upgrading from their 2nd Gen VF-5000s to 4th Gen VF-19 monkey models.  Or the Macross Frontier fleet retiring and selling off its 3rd Gen VF-11s as it prepared to begin its transition from its 4th Gen VF-171s to its locally-developed 5th Gen VF-25 in Macross the Ride.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

And that's not even mentioning the (un?)official SW-XAI Schneeblume that used the VF-1 as a reference for a stealth VF to pair up with the VF-17!

As far as we know, those are still unofficial.

The closest we've seen to a direct reference to them is a YF-29 in the SW-XAII's colors in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Honestly, the moment I saw the VF-1EX in Delta with its own EX-Gear system I'm convinced those things will be a universal constant in the franchise.

Probably not for much longer, thanks to the international distribution agreement supposedly requiring them to "retire" the designs shared with the original series in any works that are meant for international distribution.

That said, it was already getting quite silly even before Macross Delta.

After all, the VF-1 is a 1st Generation VF and it was hilariously outdated by the time the VF-11 was introduced.  Look no further than Gamlin's comical reaction to piloting Milia's old VF-1J Super Valkyrie in Macross 7 ep18.  He trained on the VF-11C Super Thunderbolt before he moved to the special forces, and he's absolutely flabbergasted at how low the VF-1's performance is.  It's enough of a moment that his reaction is presented in big bold text in the Macross Chronicle episode sheet:「ちぃ、これで全開なのか!?」"Tch.... is this full throttle!?".  And of course, he gets shot down because the VF-1's performance is so much lower than even the baseline of what he's used to.

It makes sense that it's become popular as a civilian model due to having had decades to polish its performance and handling after being retired from military service, and that it's a popular choice to teach people the rudiments of how to pilot a Valkyrie because of that low cost and low performance.  Like how Mihoshi Academy in Macross Frontier uses a civilian model VF-1 for its pilot trainees.

That said, as a training aircraft for military use like in Macross Delta it's pretty absurd because its performance is SO LOW compared to what the pilot is training to fly that it's a joke to even consider using it.  At that point, it's four (and a half) generations out of date and its performance is a tiny fraction of even the base model VF-31's.  Using one to train a pilot for a VF-31 would be like using a go-kart to train someone to race in the Indianapolis 500.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Having a stealth system before it became the norm with the 4th generation VFs I think is a nice bonus too all things considered.

All Valkyries have stealth systems.... thanks to a retcon in Macross Zero.

Macross Plus was the first title to explicitly mention and depict the existence of active stealth technology, but Macross Zero retroactively established that all VFs have had an active stealth system.  Macross Frontier would later clarify that the new active stealth system in the Project Super Nova prototypes was the debut of the 3rd Generation of active stealth systems.

The picture painted by subsequent material incl. Master File has been that there's sort of a pendulum effect as detection systems and active stealth systems advance in opposition to each other.  Because active stealth in Macross is a form of destructive interference-based ECM that operates by analyzing incoming radar beams and then producing a matching offset antiphase wave that reduces or zeroes the amplitude of the radar waves reflected from the aircraft's skin, the larger the aircraft is and the less passively stealthy its design is the harder the active stealth system has to work to mask its radar returns.  So it's kind of an arms race.  As radar systems get better ECCM and adapt to existing active stealth, the active stealth has to improve and/or VFs have to be made more passively stealthy to reduce the burden on the active stealth system.

The VF-14 and VF-17 are on the large side, and came in during the 2nd Generation of active stealth systems, so it was advantageous for them to adopt a more passively stealthy profile.  Especially the attacker-focused models like the VA-14 and VF-17, which have to contend with more powerful ship-based and ground-based radar systems in addition to the radars of enemy aircraft.  

As active stealth gains an edge, we see more externally-carried weaponry and such, and when radars start to catch up again we see a move towards internaly-carried weapons and passively stealthy designs.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Shawn said:

Picked up the newest Hobby Japan, and in the back is a custom build of the Imai 1/720 Quel Quallie.
I knew it was big, but holy cow...it is BIG

look at the size of it compared to a regult, which towers of the vf-1 in size.  I think the radome hanging off at the bottom could fit on an Elintseeker.

No wonder Hikaru's single GPB VF-1J with all the little micro-missiles didn't do it in.
It is freaking massive.

Yeah, it's big.  126.7 meters long and 57.8 meters wide... making it 20% longer, but slightly narrower, than a FIFA regulation football pitch (105m x 68m).

Or to put it in another perspective, end to end it's about two Boeing 747-700s in length.  Stood on end, it'd be about 35 storeys tall.

It's almost exactly the same length as the US Navy's old Forrest Sherman-class destroyer, but about four times as wide.

[TG Remix]

4 hours ago, Shawn said:

Picked up the newest Hobby Japan, and in the back is a custom build of the Imai 1/720 Quel Quallie.
I knew it was big, but holy cow...it is BIG

look at the size of it compared to a regult, which towers of the vf-1 in size.  I think the radome hanging off at the bottom could fit on an Elintseeker.

No wonder Hikaru's single GPB VF-1J with all the little micro-missiles didn't do it in.
It is freaking massive.

I keep forgetting how big it is, considering it needs to comfortably hold 3 giants at the same time. The Stealth Quel-Quallie from Digital Mission VF-X is essentially a heavy bomber.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(The obvious copout there being that said "anti-government" forces were actually the paramilitary volunteer forces of the pro-autonomy faction in the Second Unification War, the "good guys" backed by Max et. al. who were resisting the fascist abuse of governmental authority by the pro-centralization faction.  It's illegal, but nobody's going to prosecute the company because the pro-autonomy forces won.)

It might be because of the different medium VF-X2 is in and how it hasn't been completely translated into English yet so I can't get a full grasp, but the game makes it feel like The Second Unification War feels a lot less of a wide-galaxy scale event then what later material makes it out to be. The biggest influence you get from it is the general restructure of the NUNS from Frontier and onwards, but how Kaname's home planet is still fighting the war between pro-autonomy and pro-unification sides.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No longer being the latest and greatest model doesn't mean a fighter immediately becomes useless.  Older models that have either recently been phased out or are in the process of being phased out can still be used in a lot of different capacities because they're not immediately obsolete.  We see this a few titles like Macross 7 Trash, where the Macross 7 fleet NUNS has a number of old VF-4's that it uses for things like training flights and evaluating experimental technologies.  They can still be updated and modernized up to a point, with engine swaps and avionics upgrades and the like.  

Since there's so little known about the NUNS Reserves that Isamu was a part of, I'm wondering myself if, like actual reserve forces, aircraft if not retired from official military use were just retired from front-line duty and kept for emergencies, local forces, remote regions, etc. There's probably a point where you can upgrade them to a point, since I'm not expecting a fleet of VF-11s to be equipped with a panoramic cockpit and pinpoint barrier system, lol. Then again, considering there's a VF-1 retrofitted with EX-Gear...

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, as a training aircraft for military use like in Macross Delta it's pretty absurd because its performance is SO LOW compared to what the pilot is training to fly that it's a joke to even consider using it.  At that point, it's four (and a half) generations out of date and its performance is a tiny fraction of even the base model VF-31's.  Using one to train a pilot for a VF-31 would be like using a go-kart to train someone to race in the Indianapolis 500.

I knew Xaos had money issues but if they couldn't afford something slightly better like even a VF-5000 then that may be an issue lol.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably not for much longer, thanks to the international distribution agreement supposedly requiring them to "retire" the designs shared with the original series in any works that are meant for international distribution.

Well, that's a bit of a shame. So there'd probably be no more surprise comebacks like the museum the Zentradi Marines had in the first episode lol. Although would that sorta count derivatives of SDF designs like the Queadluun-Rhea or the VF-0?

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All Valkyries have stealth systems.... thanks to a retcon in Macross Zero.

Macross Plus was the first title to explicitly mention and depict the existence of active stealth technology, but Macross Zero retroactively established that all VFs have had an active stealth system.  Macross Frontier would later clarify that the new active stealth system in the Project Super Nova prototypes was the debut of the 3rd Generation of active stealth systems.

Huh, well that kinda makes sense considering stealth technology in our time was getting a lot better than when Plus was being released.

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-14 and VF-17 are on the large side, and came in during the 2nd Generation of active stealth systems, so it was advantageous for them to adopt a more passively stealthy profile.  Especially the attacker-focused models like the VA-14 and VF-17, which have to contend with more powerful ship-based and ground-based radar systems in addition to the radars of enemy aircraft.  

I'd hope VF's based on the Nighthawk and Blackbird would be better suited for stealth, it'd be weird otherwise!

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It might be because of the different medium VF-X2 is in and how it hasn't been completely translated into English yet so I can't get a full grasp, but the game makes it feel like The Second Unification War feels a lot less of a wide-galaxy scale event then what later material makes it out to be. The biggest influence you get from it is the general restructure of the NUNS from Frontier and onwards, but how Kaname's home planet is still fighting the war between pro-autonomy and pro-unification sides.

Kawamori has done a lot to change the context of the events of Macross VF-X2 in the last 20 years.

It graduated from "an isolated incident" to "the cause of the government reformation" to "a symptom of the government reformation" to "a small part of a larger series of smaller conflicts over the structure of the New UN Government".

Macross VF-X2's story makes you think it's something that's isolated to just Earth's "neighborhood", but Macross Delta has revealed that the conflict was fought as far afield as the Brisingr globular cluster... which is about as far from Earth as it gets.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Since there's so little known about the NUNS Reserves that Isamu was a part of, I'm wondering myself if, like actual reserve forces, aircraft if not retired from official military use were just retired from front-line duty and kept for emergencies, local forces, remote regions, etc. There's probably a point where you can upgrade them to a point, since I'm not expecting a fleet of VF-11s to be equipped with a panoramic cockpit and pinpoint barrier system, lol. Then again, considering there's a VF-1 retrofitted with EX-Gear...

We've seen some radically different approaches to airframe retention over the years in Macross, so it may vary depending on the perceived need of the local military at the time.

For instance, Earth in Macross Plus was shown using decommissioned VF-11A units as remotely operated target aircraft in the Ghost X-9's testing c.2040 while Macross Frontier was sold off a bunch of its old VF-11s to civilians when the military deemed them no longer service-worthy.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I knew Xaos had money issues but if they couldn't afford something slightly better like even a VF-5000 then that may be an issue lol.

Yeah, you'd think an alleged mega-conglomerate like Xaos would have the funds to afford a more reasonable training aircraft for new pilots like a VF-11D, a VF-171T, or even a VF-31D.

Then again, the fact that Xaos's PMC division runs out of money within days of being chased out of the Brisingr cluster by the Aerial Knights says that they were either not getting paid properly or were living paycheck to paycheck as a corporation which is even worse.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Well, that's a bit of a shame. So there'd probably be no more surprise comebacks like the museum the Zentradi Marines had in the first episode lol. Although would that sorta count derivatives of SDF designs like the Queadluun-Rhea or the VF-0?

Just the designs from the original series, as far as we've heard.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Huh, well that kinda makes sense considering stealth technology in our time was getting a lot better than when Plus was being released.

I think it's equally as much a way to justify in lore why VF vs VF combat is almost always a dogfight.

Normally, fighters would stand off against each other with long and medium range missiles before ever attempting to dogfight.  Macross's explanation for skipping right to the good bits is that missiles need powerful ECCM to counter the active stealth Valkyries have, so long and medium range missiles that rely on radar guidance are less effective in combat than short range missiles that rely on emissions that can't be masked like infrared radiation from engine exhaust and optical seekers.

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They became Shinsei.

Shinsei Industry was formed in 2012 when VF-1 and VF-4 codevelopers Stonewell and Bellcom merged with each other and with FAST Pack and thermonuclear engine manufacturer Shinnakasu Heavy Industry.

General Galaxy was also formed by a merger of existing defense companies several years later in 2017.  The overtechnology research and development firm OTEC merged with other surviving defense industry companies.

Okay, so the makers of the VF-1 merged into Shinsei, and the Corporation that rebuilt the SDF-1 merged with others into GG.

Do I have that correct?

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There's a limit to it, though...

No longer being the latest and greatest model doesn't mean a fighter immediately becomes useless.  Older models that have either recently been phased out or are in the process of being phased out can still be used in a lot of different capacities because they're not immediately obsolete.  We see this a few titles like Macross 7 Trash, where the Macross 7 fleet NUNS has a number of old VF-4's that it uses for things like training flights and evaluating experimental technologies.  They can still be updated and modernized up to a point, with engine swaps and avionics upgrades and the like.  

Not every government feels compelled to upgrade to the latest and greatest right away either.  Like in Macross Dynamite 7, the Zola Patrol were a police force for a government that generally believed in pacifism and didn't have a ton of money to throw around, so the export model VF-5000G suited their needs just fine.

With the exception of the VF-1, the point where retirement and replacement seems to be necessary is when a design is two generations old.  For instance, the Zola Patrol in Macross Dynamite 7 was upgrading from their 2nd Gen VF-5000s to 4th Gen VF-19 monkey models.  Or the Macross Frontier fleet retiring and selling off its 3rd Gen VF-11s as it prepared to begin its transition from its 4th Gen VF-171s to its locally-developed 5th Gen VF-25 in Macross the Ride.

In real life, weapons can possess longevity because of how they are designed. I know the VF-1 is far more complex though than a simple firearm (and would make the comparison kind of an ill-fitting one), but I can't help but but be reminded of the Colt 1911 .45 pistol. Over a hundred years later and the basic design hasn't changed and they're still made is quantity.

[sketchley]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, so the makers of the VF-1 merged into Shinsei, and the Corporation that rebuilt the SDF-1 merged with others into GG.

Isn't it the aircraft divisions of the respective manufacturers, along with a fourth company called "Shinsei"?

 

E.g.:

Macross the Ride's glossary:

Military Manufacturers: Shinsei Industry

A military manufacturer that rivals General Galaxy in VF development. It was created in 2012 through the merger of the aircraft divisions of Shinnakasu Heavy Industries, Stonewell, and Bellcom, with Shinsei at its core. The company released the VF-11, VF-19, and VF-25 in quick succession—and all were officially adopted by the New Unified Forces. The company is known for its solid designs.

 

 

Macross Chronicle:

Shinsei Industry [Plus, 7, F]

The company was established in 2012 through the merger of such companies as the aircraft development divisions of the Shinsei, Shinnakasu Heavy Industries, and Stonewell Bellcom companies. They started with the VF-5000, and after sending out the VF-11—the main Unified Forces VF in the 2030s—the company presented the prototype YF-19 to the "Super Nova Project", a competition for the adoption of the next main Variable Fighter (AVF) for the Unified Space Forces. After many twists and turns, that VF won the adoption competition and was officially adopted as the VF-19 Excalibur. Since then, Shinsei Industry has continued to lead the development of major VFs, including being involved in the development of the YF-24 and VF-25.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Isn't it the aircraft divisions of the respective manufacturers, along with a fourth company called "Shinsei"?

 

E.g.:

Macross the Ride's glossary:

Military Manufacturers: Shinsei Industry

A military manufacturer that rivals General Galaxy in VF development. It was created in 2012 through the merger of the aircraft divisions of Shinnakasu Heavy Industries, Stonewell, and Bellcom, with Shinsei at its core. The company released the VF-11, VF-19, and VF-25 in quick succession—and all were officially adopted by the New Unified Forces. The company is known for its solid designs.

 

 

Macross Chronicle:

Shinsei Industry [Plus, 7, F]

The company was established in 2012 through the merger of such companies as the aircraft development divisions of the Shinsei, Shinnakasu Heavy Industries, and Stonewell Bellcom companies. They started with the VF-5000, and after sending out the VF-11—the main Unified Forces VF in the 2030s—the company presented the prototype YF-19 to the "Super Nova Project", a competition for the adoption of the next main Variable Fighter (AVF) for the Unified Space Forces. After many twists and turns, that VF won the adoption competition and was officially adopted as the VF-19 Excalibur. Since then, Shinsei Industry has continued to lead the development of major VFs, including being involved in the development of the YF-24 and VF-25.

Dunno...just trying to understand what Set said.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

Isn't it the aircraft divisions of the respective manufacturers, along with a fourth company called "Shinsei"?

I don't think so, no...

If you go back to the materials for Macross Plus and Macross 7 - e.g. This is Animation Special: Macross Plus - there is no mention of a fourth company named Shinsei going into the merger.

"Development began as a joint project between Shinnakasu Heavy Industries and Stonewell Bellcom in 2011.  However, in 2012, just one year after development began, the aircraft development divisions of Shinnakasu Heavy Industries and Stonewell Bellcom merged to form the new Shinsei Industry, making this [the VF-5000] the first aircraft developed by Shinsei Industry." - This is Animation Special: Macross Plus pg68 3rd sentence.

I'll check more extensively later today, but I'm reasonably sure that most other works that discuss the merger don't mention a fourth company already named Shinsei in the merger that produced Shinsei Industry.  

EDIT: Macross Chronicle's Worldguide Sheet 06A "Military Manufacturers" describes Shinsei industry in the same terms as above.

Edited June 3 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

This all just makes me think about the Macross Plus dub somehow leaving out the name and just calling them "Industries" and it's still funny.

[Seto Kaiba]

The reason for this confusion just hit me.

Macross Plus and Macross 7-era materials describe Shinsei as a new company that emerged out of the merger of Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu Heavy Industries.  

Macross Zero-era materials inexplicably mention Shinsei as an involved party in the development of the VF-0 despite that being set four years before Shinsei was previously said to have been founded.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix offers some mild clarification/explanation in its development history of the VF-0.  It asserts that the original Shinsei Corporation was a land warfare weapons company and subsidiary of Yashu Heavy Industries, the shipbuilding firm that would go on to design the Macross Quarter-class.

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't think so, no...

If you go back to the materials for Macross Plus and Macross 7 - e.g. This is Animation Special: Macross Plus - there is no mention of a fourth company named Shinsei going into the merger.

"Development began as a joint project between Shinnakasu Heavy Industries and Stonewell Bellcom in 2011.  However, in 2012, just one year after development began, the aircraft development divisions of Shinnakasu Heavy Industries and Stonewell Bellcom merged to form the new Shinsei Industry, making this [the VF-5000] the first aircraft developed by Shinsei Industry." - This is Animation Special: Macross Plus pg68 3rd sentence.

I'll check more extensively later today, but I'm reasonably sure that most other works that discuss the merger don't mention a fourth company already named Shinsei in the merger that produced Shinsei Industry.  

EDIT: Macross Chronicle's Worldguide Sheet 06A "Military Manufacturers" describes Shinsei industry in the same terms as above.

I say "fourth" because of the way that "Macross the Ride" indicates that Stonewell and Bellcom are separate companies: "新星を中心に新中州重工、ストンウェル社、ベルコム社の各社航空部門が．．．"

 

So, pending the source, it's either "three companies" (Macross Chronicle glossay entry), or "four companies" (Macross the Ride).

 

Regarding Macross Chronicle Worldguide Sheet 06A:  is this the line you're refering to?

2012年に新中州重工、ストンウェル、ベルコムの航空部門が合併して誕生（新星中心の再編と思われる）。

"The company was formed in 2012 through the merger of the aviation divisions of Shinnakasu Heavy Industries, Stonewell, and Bellcom (believed to be a reorganization centered on Shinsei)."

 

The only difference between it and the 2 quotes in my preceding post is that the 4th company (Shinsei) is in brackets.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Plus and Macross 7-era materials describe Shinsei as a new company that emerged out of the merger of Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu Heavy Industries. 

??

I think you've got two distinct companies confused:  "Shinsei" and "Shinsei Industry".  Or did you intend to write "Shinsei Industry" for the M+ and M7 era?

 

Edited June 3 by sketchley