Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:35 AM, JB0 said:

In fairness, the Battle-class detaches from the Island-class for, ummm, battle.

I can think of reasons this would be a good idea, were it not depicted as so easy to travel between ships(like you can literally drive a car from one to the other).

That it does... though as seen in Macross Frontier, it doesn't necessarily have to separate in order to lay down the law with its Macross Cannon.

I've often wondered why they didn't put the government facilities in the docking umbilical. Seems like a waste of space to keep the civilian command center in the military one so far separated structurally.

[TG Remix]

Thinking about the Varauta ships and how before we saw them in 7 proper they were all UN ships. It got me to wonder if their anti-ship high-angle beam guns was something that was always in the original design or something the Protodevlin added for their modifications. As far as I know, nothing else in the franchise has those types of angling beams, although I remember someone saying the Marduk ships in Macross II had them as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Thinking about the Varauta ships and how before we saw them in 7 proper they were all UN ships. It got me to wonder if their anti-ship high-angle beam guns was something that was always in the original design or something the Protodevlin added for their modifications. As far as I know, nothing else in the franchise has those types of angling beams, although I remember someone saying the Marduk ships in Macross II had them as well.

Hard to say... as we've never seen those ships in their original form.

IIRC, the first time we see beam weapons like that is in Macross: Do You Remember Love?.  There are a few shots in the original series - esp. in Burst Point - where it looks like the Zentradi might be using the same technology but it's hard to tell as they could just be missile trails but it seems to be more of a Meltrandi thing.  The Mardook had the same tech in Macross II: Lovers Again though it's only properly visible in the final scenes of the OVA when the Mardook fleet turns on Ingues's mobile fortress.  The Meltrandi Chlore branch fleet in Macross 7's unaired episode Fleet of the Strongest Women has a few ships that are shown using the same kind of beam gun too.

I'd have to check, as my recollection of the scene is not perfect, but I think the Macross Galaxy fleet escorts used beam weapons of the same type in the second Macross Frontier movie when they were shown bombarding a Vajra hive.

It's likely something of a "premium" feature, since it requires not just the elements to fire the beam but also to project a spatial distortion to twist the path of the beam, so it's not surprising it's an uncommon feature on Human ships that generally prioritize cost-effectiveness for mass production and stealth.

[snakerbot]

Do we know what the story is with the VF-171's built-in guns? The VF-17 precursor had six or eight, two beside the cockpit, two in the arms, and the rest on the monitor turret, although the exact models of those is not specified anywhere I can see. The 171 and 171EX have two REB-22 or AMG-30 and two AAB-7B or AAB-9A but I can't see anything saying which of those are where on the airframe. The CG model shows exit ports on both ends of the arms and the guns beside the cockpit are depicted firing something in the show. Looking for similar weapons on other VFs I see:

• AAB-7(.5) on the YF-21's monitor turret
• REB-22 in the YF-21's arms
• REB-20G or REB-23 in the YF-19's wing roots
• REB-23 in the VF-19P's wing roots
• REB-30G on the YF-19 and VF-19P's monitor turrets

The YF-21 having the AAB-7(.5) on the monitor turret makes me think the AAB-7Bs or AAB-9As are on the 171's monitor turret.

Given that the REB-22 in the YF-21 have twin exit ports, it makes sense to assume those are the ones in the 171's arms, but on the movie 171 and the 171EX those are replaced with projectile guns, and I'm not sure projectile guns with twin exit ports make all that much sense.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, snakerbot said:

Do we know what the story is with the VF-171's built-in guns? The VF-17 precursor had six or eight, two beside the cockpit, two in the arms, and the rest on the monitor turret, although the exact models of those is not specified anywhere I can see. The 171 and 171EX have two REB-22 or AMG-30 and two AAB-7B or AAB-9A but I can't see anything saying which of those are where on the airframe.

The REB-22 beam guns and AMG-30 machine guns are for the gun mounts on either side of the cockpit.

The AAB-7B/AAB-9A beam cannons are on the monitor turret (head) as coaxial guns.

The official writeups note that the original VF-17's forearm-mounted beam guns are not present in the economized VF-171.

[Seto Kaiba]

While I was idly poking at Variable Fighter Master File, I spotted one interesting bit of apparent foreshadowing.

The VF-25 Master File was released in 2011, but there's a part of it that seems to foreshadow the New UN Forces big scandal from 2016's Macross Delta.  The book has a brief part that talks about the MDE weapons that were developed to fight the Vajra in 2059.  Towards the end of that section, there is a brief aside about the legal status of dimension bombs and how their use in internal conflicts between New UN Government member states is expressly prohibited by interstellar law.  These weapons are so taboo that the few units that possess one are not allowed to publicly disclose that they have them.

I just found that interesting, since that's a detail that originated in Master File but seemly became a major plot point in the next Macross series made after the book was written.  It puts an interesting wrinkle on the events of Macross Delta that the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces, since a major part of the backstory there was that the Brisingr Alliance NUNS used a dimensional weapon in a botched attempt to destroy the Sigur Berrentzs.  If just using a dimension eater in an internal conflict like the 2060 Windermere War constituted a war crime, the New UN Spacy must've known a lot more about the capabilities of the Sigur Berrentzs than they were letting on and were willing to face war crime charges in their attempt to protect the galaxy from the Delta Wave System.  It also explains why they were able to so effectively isolate Windermere IV after the conflict.  If they were able to make the charge that Windermere used the bomb stick, they'd be ostracized for using a heinous banned weapon of mass destruction even though the only victims of it were their own people.  

(Of course, it begs the question of whether the NUNS's second attempt to use dimensional warheads against Windermere IV was also illegal... they had seceded from the New UN Gov't seven years prior, so as a hostile external force was that prohibition still in place?)

[cheemingwan1234]

So, how does  the VF-2SS and VF-2JA from Macross II compare to the canon VFs from Delta?

Edited April 9 by cheemingwan1234

[sketchley]

10 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So, how does  the VF-2SS and VF-2JA from Macross II compare to the canon VFs from Delta?

They don't.

Long story short, the canon VFs in Plus and Frontier were outperforming the Macross II Valkyries in all aspects (speed, manoeuvrability, firepower, etc., etc., etc.)  If anything, the Macross II Valkyries arguably fit in (capability-wise) somewhere between the VF-11/VF-14, and the VF-17.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So, how does  the VF-2SS and VF-2JA from Macross II compare to the canon VFs from Delta?

Macross II: Lovers Again isn't non-canonical, it (and at least its two prequels) are an official "parallel world" (alternate universe) timeline since 1994.

That said, the technological development of the Macross II "parallel world" timeline is rather different to what was later defined in Macross Plus and later titles.  The pace of new model development is more consistent across the whole timeline, and therefore slower than the early portions of the ongoing Macross timeline.  There's also more emphasis on Humanity reverse-engineering and applying lessons learned from the study of Zentran and Meltran overtechnology.

The Valkyrie II series VFs - the VF-XX, VF-2, VF-2SS, and VF-2JA - were developed in the Macross II timeline's late 2050s and 2060s based on new overtechnology captured from an unnamed Zentradi Main Fleet that attacked the emigrant ship Million Star and then the Sol system in 2054.  All of the Valkyrie II series VFs apply lessons learned from the study of Zentradi battle suits.  The refinements adopted into the next-gen VFs included substantial improvements to armor and structural materials, to actuators, and to the thermonuclear reactors and generators that provide thrust and power.  These improvements were first tested on the VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie in 2060.  They were then adopted by the VF-2 series that entered production in 2072 and further improvements were made for the VF-2SS in 2082 and the VF-2JA in 2086.

The main metric most fans look at for comparing VFs is usually engine power or thrust-to-weight ratio.  In those terms, the VF-2SS and VF-2JA are about comparable to the main (ongoing) Macross timeline's 3rd Generation VFs like the VF-11.  The VF-2SS is said to have approximately 3x the engine power and generator output of the VF-1, which given the operational mass puts their thrust-to-weight ratio between 6.43 and 8.67, or a bit more than the VF-11 to a bit less than the VF-17D respectively.

Mind you, thrust-to-weight ratios approaching 10 are more or less the limit to what a Human pilot can actually take unassisted.  Gamlin was shown to struggle a bit to draw out the full potential of his VF-17D/S, which is 9 or 10 depending on model, and the 4th Gen VF-19 and VF-22 are noted to have had very few eligible pilots because they were beyond even 10.  The 5th Gen VFs are over 30, which gives them incredible acceleration and maneuverability performance that they can only achieve because they have a means to cheat those excessive g-forces away using inertia capacitors.

The two areas where the Macross II VFs are seemingly more advanced than their main timeline counterparts are in the adoption of AI wingmen and railguns.  From a late 2030's update to the VF-4, Macross II VFs were using funnels and bits (yes, like Gundam, but computer controlled) as autonomous wingmen to protect and improve the firepower of VFs.  The VF-2SS notably deploys with five bit wingmen that provide fire support and defense.  They also make extensive use of railguns for gunpods and larger cannons.  In the main timeline, railguns are still a relatively new feature for VFs as of the 5th Gen and the ones we've seen aren't true railguns so much as railgun-assisted conventional cannons which employ both a chemical propellant and a linear accelerator.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Gamlin was shown to struggle a bit to draw out the full potential of his VF-17D/S, which is 9 or 10 depending on model,

In fairness, Gamlin was also shown struggling to draw out the full potential of Millia's VF-1, which he got destroyed. Never forget!

[azrael]

14 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So, how does  the VF-2SS and VF-2JA from Macross II compare to the canon VFs from Delta?

Keep in mind, we have no specs except for weapon loadouts (and bare minimum at that) and maybe, dimensions on the Macross II VFs. 0. Nada. Zilch. We can't really compare because there is literally nothing to compare to on paper.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, azrael said:

Keep in mind, we have no specs except for weapon loadouts (and bare minimum at that) and maybe, dimensions on the Macross II VFs. 0. Nada. Zilch. We can't really compare because there is literally nothing to compare to on paper.

We have a bit more than that... we have things like normal operating mass, main engine thrust, number of verniers, and some statements about generator output.

But yeah, there's not a ton of fodder for like-for-like comparison.

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, Gamlin was also shown struggling to draw out the full potential of Millia's VF-1, which he got destroyed. Never forget!

It would be funny if in the next Macross series, they had a one shot of her and she's still upset all these years after Gamlin wrecked her VF-1!

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, Gamlin was also shown struggling to draw out the full potential of Millia's VF-1, which he got destroyed. Never forget!

True... though, if anything, that's a Reality Ensues moment.

Gamlin was trained on the VF-11C Thunderbolt and VF-17D/S Nightmare.  Both of those VFs are at least two generations newer than the VF-1 Valkyrie and have considerably higher performance.  He hopped into a VF he'd never trained on, and discovered it had about 1/5th of the performance he was used to.  Like someone whose daily driver is a Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat who finds himself driving a Toyota Prius while on holiday.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

It would be funny if in the next Macross series, they had a one shot of her and she's still upset all these years after Gamlin wrecked her VF-1!

You KNOW she's never gonna let that go.

If Gamlin and Mylene ended up married, you KNOW she'd blackmail Gamlin with that every chance she gets.

[cheemingwan1234]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

True... though, if anything, that's a Reality Ensues moment.

Gamlin was trained on the VF-11C Thunderbolt and VF-17D/S Nightmare.  Both of those VFs are at least two generations newer than the VF-1 Valkyrie and have considerably higher performance.  He hopped into a VF he'd never trained on, and discovered it had about 1/5th of the performance he was used to.  Like someone whose daily driver is a Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat who finds himself driving a Toyota Prius while on holiday.

 

You KNOW she's never gonna let that go.

If Gamlin and Mylene ended up married, you KNOW she'd blackmail Gamlin with that every chance she gets.

Make this a cross with Delta so that Mirage can join in.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Make this a cross with Delta so that Mirage can join in.

🤯

[cheemingwan1234]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

True... though, if anything, that's a Reality Ensues moment.

Gamlin was trained on the VF-11C Thunderbolt and VF-17D/S Nightmare.  Both of those VFs are at least two generations newer than the VF-1 Valkyrie and have considerably higher performance.  He hopped into a VF he'd never trained on, and discovered it had about 1/5th of the performance he was used to.  Like someone whose daily driver is a Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat who finds himself driving a Toyota Prius while on holiday.

 

You KNOW she's never gonna let that go.

If Gamlin and Mylene ended up married, you KNOW she'd blackmail Gamlin with that every chance she gets.

Onto a more serious note. Why did Gamlin struggle with Mila's VF-1? I thought he should have training on it given that VF-1s are still used as trainers even in the era of Delta.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Onto a more serious note. Why did Gamlin struggle with Mila's VF-1? I thought he should have training on it given that VF-1s are still used as trainers even in the era of Delta.

Honestly, it's incredibly weird that the VF-1 is still being used as a training aircraft in the Macross Delta series.

By 2067, the VF-1 is a 59-year-old platform and it's three to four generations behind the current model VFs that the military and PMCs are using. That should make it effectively useless as a training aircraft for combat pilots because its performance and technology are so far behind what the aircraft they would be flying in combat have. Xaos may have been using them for Hayate's training specifically because he was an unqualified pilot with minimal experience and crashing one of those is a heck of a lot cheaper than if he crashed a VF-31. It's probably not standard practice to use those for training.

In 2059, the VF-1 is used as a training aircraft... but only in civilian flight schools like the Macross Frontier fleet's Mihoshi Academy where students are getting their basic pilot's licenses. SMS trains pilots directly on the aircraft they're going to be flying, and the New UN Spacy probably does the same assuming there are training versions of the VF-171.

When we see Gamlin training in Macross 7 PLUS, The aircraft he's shown training on is a VF-11C Super Thunderbolt... the aircraft that was the standard military fighter used in the 37th fleet. Then once he joined the special forces, he moved to a VF-17D Nightmare. Odds are he never touched a VF-1 prior to borrowing Milia's.

[cheemingwan1234]

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Honestly, it's incredibly weird that the VF-1 is still being used as a training aircraft in the Macross Delta series.

By 2067, the VF-1 is a 59-year-old platform and it's three to four generations behind the current model VFs that the military and PMCs are using. That should make it effectively useless as a training aircraft for combat pilots because its performance and technology are so far behind what the aircraft they would be flying in combat have. Xaos may have been using them for Hayate's training specifically because he was an unqualified pilot with minimal experience and crashing one of those is a heck of a lot cheaper than if he crashed a VF-31. It's probably not standard practice to use those for training.

In 2059, the VF-1 is used as a training aircraft... but only in civilian flight schools like the Macross Frontier fleet's Mihoshi Academy where students are getting their basic pilot's licenses. SMS trains pilots directly on the aircraft they're going to be flying, and the New UN Spacy probably does the same assuming there are training versions of the VF-171.

When we see Gamlin training in Macross 7 PLUS, The aircraft he's shown training on is a VF-11C Super Thunderbolt... the aircraft that was the standard military fighter used in the 37th fleet. Then once he joined the special forces, he moved to a VF-17D Nightmare. Odds are he never touched a VF-1 prior to borrowing Milia's.

Ah, I see. So he never touched a VF-1 before.

 

Speaking of which. So, are the VF-171s in Delta basically VF-171EXs without the VF-19 engines and EX-Gear?

[Gendo Koun]

6 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Speaking of which. So, are the VF-171s in Delta basically VF-171EXs without the VF-19 engines and EX-Gear?

They are standard issue VF-171s given the circumstances that Brisingr cluster is at the edge of Milky Way and Local UN gov't developed their own 5th gen Valk to get some gold bar from other nearby member states. Changing whole fleet of oldie 171 to EX standard is costly while they are just for maintaining peace and keep out the local threats

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Ah, I see. So he never touched a VF-1 before.

That is likely the case, yeah.

 

8 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Speaking of which. So, are the VF-171s in Delta basically VF-171EXs without the VF-19 engines and EX-Gear?

Official publications for Macross Delta spare almost no thought for the VF-171s used by the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces.

The CG model used in the animation is the same one used for the basic (Block II) VF-171 Nightmare Plus that was the New UN Spacy's standard fighter in Macross Frontier, with the only changes being a new texture applied to the model that replaces the original blue colors with khaki and some minor changes to the exterior markings.

Bandai's Mecha Colle model kit for the Macross Delta VF-171 identifies it as "general aircraft, frontier space specification" in Japanese and "standard model - rim world model" in English.

The Macross Delta VF-171s are definitely not the EX model or a derivative of same as they lack the signature bubble canopy, downward-tilted nose, and EX-Gear of that special model.  Based on the reuse of the CG model and its description as a "frontier space specification" of the standard model, it can be reasonably concluded that they're a locally-produced version of the same standard Block II VF-171 that was the main VF of the New UN Forces at the end of the 2050s in Macross Frontier.

[JB0]

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

True... though, if anything, that's a Reality Ensues moment.

Gamlin was trained on the VF-11C Thunderbolt and VF-17D/S Nightmare.  Both of those VFs are at least two generations newer than the VF-1 Valkyrie and have considerably higher performance.  He hopped into a VF he'd never trained on, and discovered it had about 1/5th of the performance he was used to.  Like someone whose daily driver is a Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat who finds himself driving a Toyota Prius while on holiday.

Oh, yeah, it is EXACTLY what anyone should've expected to happen.

It really makes you wonder why he commandeered Millia's VF-1 in the first place. I'll assume he just didn't realize it was roughly analagous to training on a Tomcat and then trying to fly a Mustang.

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Oh, yeah, it is EXACTLY what anyone should've expected to happen.

It really makes you wonder why he commandeered Millia's VF-1 in the first place. I'll assume he just didn't realize it was roughly analagous to training on a Tomcat and then trying to fly a Mustang.

Macross Chronicle Episode sheet for Macross 7 Ep18 "Falling Little Devil" offers the viewpoint that Gamlin took Milia's VF-1J into combat for two main reasons:

1. To protect Mylene, who had led him to the hangar where it was stored because she was intending to do literally that same thing herself and he wasn't about to let her put herself in danger.
2. To soothe his own battered ego, as he was feeling thoroughly depressed and useless after he and Cpt. Kinryu were shot down in the previous episode and his wingman and friend Physica was shot down and killed in the episode before that.

It is fun that said Episode sheet has a section devoted to calling Gamlin unlucky and noting that going out to fight in a Valkyrie without a pilot suit was a stupidly risky move and that he could easily have died.

[cheemingwan1234]

Regarding the YF-19/VF-19A's micro missile bays, are they drop in modules? The DX Chogokin and Arcadia toys together with a few scenes in Plus has the legs be used as a bay for a single missile.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Regarding the YF-19/VF-19A's micro missile bays, are they drop in modules? The DX Chogokin and Arcadia toys together with a few scenes in Plus has the legs be used as a bay for a single missile.

It was a modular pallet system.

The bays were designed to accept a standardized weapon pallet that could be loaded with different configurations of weaponry like reaction weaponry, long-ranged missiles, medium ranged missiles, or micro-missiles.

The YF-21/VF-22's internal bays are the same.

[Seto Kaiba]

@kajnrig, moving my response to your question here to avoid veering too far off topic in the Macross Zero topic.

 

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

Is that confirmed? At least 3D model-wise, I thought it just reused the Alto -29 model. The -29B has a different... head...?

This is the first I've seen it referred to as the B variant. I've only ever seen it referred to as a plain ol' YF-29.

Thus far, we only have one book that talks about the mecha from Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! in more than the most basic detail: Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus.

Max's YF-29 is referenced as part of the book's explanation of the challenges and roadblocks defense companies are facing in developing 6th Generation VF concepts.  It defines three types of YF-29 as part of its explanation of the YF-29 in general and the difference fold quartz purity makes in performance in particular: the A-type, B-type, and C-type:

Alto's YF-29 is treated as YF-29A, a one-of-a-kind aircraft that cannot be reproduced because the ultra-high purity fold quartz from Vajra queens used in its fold wave system is effectively impossible to obtain.

All of the other YF-29s in the official setting are collectively designated YF-29B.  Various customizations aside, they're all considered the same variant due to being one-offs with similar performance well below the original YF-29's as a result of having to use lower-purity fold quartz than the unobtainably rare stuff the original YF-29 had.

The third one, YF-29C, is a Master File original variant that's presented as an attempt to make the YF-29 economical for mass production by substituting the purest possible synthetic fold carbon for fold quartz.  It's said that its fold wave system only achieves 1% of the power of the original YF-29's at best.

[TG Remix]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Thus far, we only have one book that talks about the mecha from Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! in more than the most basic detail: Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus.

Max's YF-29 is referenced as part of the book's explanation of the challenges and roadblocks defense companies are facing in developing 6th Generation VF concepts.  It defines three types of YF-29 as part of its explanation of the YF-29 in general and the difference fold quartz purity makes in performance in particular: the A-type, B-type, and C-type:

 

Alto's YF-29 is treated as YF-29A, a one-of-a-kind aircraft that cannot be reproduced because the ultra-high purity fold quartz from Vajra queens used in its fold wave system is effectively impossible to obtain.

All of the other YF-29s in the official setting are collectively designated YF-29B.  Various customizations aside, they're all considered the same variant due to being one-offs with similar performance well below the original YF-29's as a result of having to use lower-purity fold quartz than the unobtainably rare stuff the original YF-29 had.

The third one, YF-29C, is a Master File original variant that's presented as an attempt to make the YF-29 economical for mass production by substituting the purest possible synthetic fold carbon for fold quartz.  It's said that its fold wave system only achieves 1% of the power of the original YF-29's at best.

And we thought the VF-19 lineage was too much of an ace pilot/main protagonist Valkyrie lmao. At least if a fleet is allowed they could make enough for a team or a squadron. The YF-29 is probably the closest we get to a Gundam-type mentality in Kawamori's Macross. 

[SebastianP]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

@kajnrig, moving my response to your question here to avoid veering too far off topic in the Macross Zero topic.

 

Thus far, we only have one book that talks about the mecha from Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! in more than the most basic detail: Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus.

Max's YF-29 is referenced as part of the book's explanation of the challenges and roadblocks defense companies are facing in developing 6th Generation VF concepts.  It defines three types of YF-29 as part of its explanation of the YF-29 in general and the difference fold quartz purity makes in performance in particular: the A-type, B-type, and C-type:

 

Alto's YF-29 is treated as YF-29A, a one-of-a-kind aircraft that cannot be reproduced because the ultra-high purity fold quartz from Vajra queens used in its fold wave system is effectively impossible to obtain.

All of the other YF-29s in the official setting are collectively designated YF-29B.  Various customizations aside, they're all considered the same variant due to being one-offs with similar performance well below the original YF-29's as a result of having to use lower-purity fold quartz than the unobtainably rare stuff the original YF-29 had.

The third one, YF-29C, is a Master File original variant that's presented as an attempt to make the YF-29 economical for mass production by substituting the purest possible synthetic fold carbon for fold quartz.  It's said that its fold wave system only achieves 1% of the power of the original YF-29's at best.

Keep in mind that Master File is not official canon, though. Elements of them *have* apparently been re-used in the official setting material, though whether that's because Ukyo Kodachi read the books and was inspired, or came up with it themselves independently I couldn't possibly tell; but nothing in the books is canon unless it's corroborated in an anime or in the Chronicle... which hasn't been updated in ages.

So, what we do have for official sources on the YF-29 is the Macross 30 game - which is definitely canon, as you said yourself; and possibly official licensed toys and model kits, and their descriptions.

Macross 30, which was the original source for there even being an YF-29B, only has a single example - Rod Baltmer's YF-29B Perceval. The other *five* examples of the YF-29 in the game (Alto Saotome's, Ozma Lee's, Leon Sakaki's, Isamu Dyson's, and the 30th anniversary Itasha version) are all straight up labeled "YF-29 Durandal". 

The DX toy versions of all of the above are also labeled similarly - only Rod's machine from the game is an YF-29B Perceval, all of the others are YF-29 Durandal's; and the DX toys add the Roy Focker Custom and most recently the Max Jenius custom as YF-29 Durandals.

The Bandai 1/100 model kits also refer to Max' ride as a YF-29 Durandal, and does not claim any downgrades over Alto's machine in the (conveniently officially translated) blurb on the model kit manual, which can be read for both models on Dalong.net. The model kit description for Max' machine even lists the "ultra high purity fold quarts amplifiers".

The implication is that while extremely expensive to produce and thus only made in extremely limited quantities, the colonies can reproduce the YF-29 to the same spec as the first unit; though only a handful of special ace custom units are around. Aisha on Ouroboros may be able to produce them locally due to the natural resources available, but that's basically artisanal crafting, not mass production.

The YF-29B is obviously the NUNS attempt at replicating the YF-29; it has a different name because it's not built by the same people. It may or may not have been discontinued after that one prototype due to the expense; this is not mentioned anywhere in the bio for the unit AFAICT. 

I don't remember what white text on Macross Mecha Manual indicates (green is for conjecture or calculated data, purple for Macross Chronicle info; and teal is for Master File stuff); so I don't know where exactly the "Philosopher's stone" stuff comes from given that the article isn't sourced. Is that novel info or from a toy manual?

7 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

And we thought the VF-19 lineage was too much of an ace pilot/main protagonist Valkyrie lmao. At least if a fleet is allowed they could make enough for a team or a squadron. The YF-29 is probably the closest we get to a Gundam-type mentality in Kawamori's Macross. 

The gundam-type things infiltrated the franchise all the way back in Macross Plus/Macross 7; with the YF-19 being so good that the production version had to be nerfed; and Fire Bomber flying around in custom suits that outperformed the line machines. 

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

And we thought the VF-19 lineage was too much of an ace pilot/main protagonist Valkyrie lmao. At least if a fleet is allowed they could make enough for a team or a squadron. The YF-29 is probably the closest we get to a Gundam-type mentality in Kawamori's Macross. 

Pretty much, yeah.

The VF-19 might've gotten the boot for looking too much like a "hero" mecha to be used as cannon fodder c. Macross Frontier's TV series, but the YF-29 Durandal was Macross's first real flirtation with the concept of a Gundam-style Super Prototype.

Thankfully, there've only been two designs to fall into that lamentable category (the YF-29 and YF-30) and the only one to put in more than one appearance was the YF-29.  

Master File's explanation of the state of 6th Gen VFs and its explanation of the three different YF-29s seems to be a bit of an effort to retroactively NERF the other YF-29s and make their proliferation in Macross 30 and Absolute Live!!!!!! a bit less broken.

 

21 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

The gundam-type things infiltrated the franchise all the way back in Macross Plus/Macross 7; with the YF-19 being so good that the production version had to be nerfed; and Fire Bomber flying around in custom suits that outperformed the line machines. 

Ah, that's not correct I'm afraid.

Granted, Macross 7 did indulge in Ace Custom versions of the VF-19, VF-17, and VF-11... but that's different from the Super Prototype shenanigans going on with the YF-29 (and to a lesser extent, YF-30).

However, claiming that the YF-19 was "so good that the production version had to be nerfed" is not accurate.  The VF-19's first mass production type (variants A-D) was effectively identical to the final YF-19 spec, and the second mass production type (F, S, etc.) had significantly higher performance.  Even the "monkey model" version used by the Frontier fleet's special forces in Macross R had performance comparable or superior to the YF-19's.

 

21 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Keep in mind that [...]

Everyone knows.  Like I noted, the ONLY source that talks about the mecha of the Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! movie is Master File.

That's it.  That's ALL we got.  There is no other source... and the part being referenced is very much just a minor expansion on things which were already stated way back in the extra features from the Macross Delta TV series.  That's why I cited it.  

 

21 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Macross 30, which was the original source for there even being an YF-29B, only has a single example - Rod Baltmer's YF-29B Perceval. The other *five* examples of the YF-29 in the game (Alto Saotome's, Ozma Lee's, Leon Sakaki's, Isamu Dyson's, and the 30th anniversary Itasha version) are all straight up labeled "YF-29 Durandal". 

Bear in mind, that's all material from before Macross Delta and its materials started retroactively reclassifying the YF-29 and YF-30 as 6th Generation.

It's also worth noting that this would hardly be the first time a generic label was assigned to a design in a movie and changed later.  Isamu's VF-19 from the second Frontier movie got its name changed multiple times before they settled on one.

The YF-29B designation from Macross 30 may be an informal one similar to the VF-31C/E/F/J/S types from Macross Delta.

 

21 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

The implication is that while extremely expensive to produce and thus only made in extremely limited quantities, the colonies can reproduce the YF-29 to the same spec as the first unit; though only a handful of special ace custom units are around. Aisha on Ouroboros may be able to produce them locally due to the natural resources available, but that's basically artisanal crafting, not mass production.

The YF-29B is obviously the NUNS attempt at replicating the YF-29; it has a different name because it's not built by the same people. It may or may not have been discontinued after that one prototype due to the expense; this is not mentioned anywhere in the bio for the unit AFAICT. 

They've gone back and forth on it a few times.

Initially, the Frontier fleet's YF-29 Durandal was treated as a one-of-a-kind aircraft because the exotic material requirements to build it were so impossible to meet that they had to leave the prototype incomplete for two entire years because the fold quartz needed to build a working fold wave system was effectively unobtainable by any normal means.

Later, Macross 30 threw a few YF-29s in play with the excuse that Havamal was using fold quartz from the Protoculture ruins to provide its top aces with the YF-29B.  

The Delta-era explanation seems to be trying to reconcile the two conflicting explanations into something that also aligns with what it's trying to establish about the 6th Generation of Variable Fighters.  The way they've done it allows for them to have exactly the same specs and still be different based on the different performance of their fold wave systems, esp. as it seems to be building up to the idea that fold wave systems are the wave of the future and power depends on their system efficiency.  IMO, what they've done is actually quite clever, esp. in how it builds on what they were also establishing about the disparity in performance enhancement between the Sv-262 variants and the VF-31 customs.

 

21 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

I don't remember what white text on Macross Mecha Manual indicates (green is for conjecture or calculated data, purple for Macross Chronicle info; and teal is for Master File stuff); so I don't know where exactly the "Philosopher's stone" stuff comes from given that the article isn't sourced. Is that novel info or from a toy manual?

If memory serves, that was first mentioned in Great Mechanics DX16... but it's been repeated in official art books like the Official Complete Book for the second Frontier movie.

Calling the unobtainably-pure fold quartz a "Philosopher's Stone" was a joke on how impossible the material was to obtain, and they gave each of the four pieces installed on Alto's YF-29 a name that referenced the various holy relics supposedly incorporated into the sword Durandal... possibly Luca's doing, he likes making references like that.

[SebastianP]

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ah, that's not correct I'm afraid.

Granted, Macross 7 did indulge in Ace Custom versions of the VF-19, VF-17, and VF-11... but that's different from the Super Prototype shenanigans going on with the YF-29 (and to a lesser extent, YF-30).

However, claiming that the YF-19 was "so good that the production version had to be nerfed" is not accurate.  The VF-19's first mass production type (variants A-D) was effectively identical to the final YF-19 spec, and the second mass production type (F, S, etc.) had significantly higher performance.  Even the "monkey model" version used by the Frontier fleet's special forces in Macross R had performance comparable or superior to the YF-19's.

 

Depends on what level of super prototype shenanigans you're ascribing to Gundam... i.e. which part of the series you're looking at. 

If we're looking at the early Gundams (MSG and MSG-Z) they weren't hugely faster or more powerful than the grunt suits, and being in a Gundam was definitely not an "I Win" button for any of the early pilots. Not like, say, the Fire Valkyrie. 

Also, the VF-19 was nerfed by having the flight controls tuned down so normal pilots could fly - this doesn't translate to reduced engine power or anything that would show up in the usual stat block we get for model kits and the like, but it's still a performance hit. And the VF-22 had a bunch of stuff removed compared to the YF-21; that's technically another nerf, as no one could fly the VF-22 like Guld flew the YF-21.

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, SebastianP said:

Depends on what level of super prototype shenanigans you're ascribing to Gundam... i.e. which part of the series you're looking at. 

If we're looking at the early Gundams (MSG and MSG-Z) they weren't hugely faster or more powerful than the grunt suits, and being in a Gundam was definitely not an "I Win" button for any of the early pilots.

Not really, no.  

What's being referred to here is the Gundam franchise's commonplace habit of giving its protagonist a one-of-a-kind mecha that is significantly more advanced and powerful than contemporary mass production versions and either flat-out cannot be mass produced or the mass production version is significantly stripped down and a lot less powerful.

It was those early UC-era Gundams that more or less created the trope in the first place... which is part of why the trope is so commonly associated with the franchise.

 

8 hours ago, SebastianP said:

Not like, say, the Fire Valkyrie. 

Given that the Fire Valkyrie spent the first half of Macross 7 accomplishing basically nothing on the battlefield, I'd question that assertion.

 

8 hours ago, SebastianP said:

Also, the VF-19 was nerfed by having the flight controls tuned down so normal pilots could fly - this doesn't translate to reduced engine power or anything that would show up in the usual stat block we get for model kits and the like, but it's still a performance hit.

That's not a nerf... by definition, a "nerf" is a change that weakens something to make it less effective.

The refinements Shinsei Industry made to the VF-19 in the second production type didn't reduce its performance.  It actually has higher performance than the prototype and first production type, but with improved handling that means that pilots can draw out that performance more readily without the risk of losing control of the aircraft.  The instability of the prototype made it highly effective in the hands of the tiny handful of people who could actually handle it but was nevertheless a design flaw rather than a feature because the VF-19 not developed to be an elite special forces VF... it was intended as a main VF.  In practice, it's more of a buff since it made the even-more-powerful second production type something that could be deployed in larger numbers.  It went from "awesome but hilariously impractical" to "awesome but expensive".

 

8 hours ago, SebastianP said:

And the VF-22 had a bunch of stuff removed compared to the YF-21; that's technically another nerf, as no one could fly the VF-22 like Guld flew the YF-21.

Just one or two things... and one is in "certain point of view" territory, TBH.

Ironically, Macross Chronicle actually presents those removals as improvements too... crediting them with a significant cost reduction and reduced weight that improved the final aircraft's performance and operation rate.  Despite the removals, it's also explicitly indicated to have performance comparable to, or superior to, the prototype... so I'm not sure it can be said the removals are a nerf with a straight face.

Cutting out the free-deformation wing material doesn't seem to have adversely impacted maneuverability based on the descriptions in Chronicle, and scaling back the brain direct interface to a support system is noted to have reduced cost and weight and made the system itself stable enough to actually use, resulting in a net gain in performance not a loss according to Chronicle.  It's not a nerf, it's explicitly a buff.

[SebastianP]

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not really, no.  

What's being referred to here is the Gundam franchise's commonplace habit of giving its protagonist a one-of-a-kind mecha that is significantly more advanced and powerful than contemporary mass production versions and either flat-out cannot be mass produced or the mass production version is significantly stripped down and a lot less powerful.

It was those early UC-era Gundams that more or less created the trope in the first place... which is part of why the trope is so commonly associated with the franchise.

 

The RX-78, of which at least 5 examples were made according to the lore (though only one was in the anime); and the RX-178 of which at least three were made that *are* in the anime? *those* unique, OP machines, that could be bested by mass production units in one on one if the opponent was skilled enough?

The "actually super" prototypes came with the Zeta itself and the Double Zeta, and later the Nu. But the RX-78 and RX-178 weren't outright super robots masquerading as real robots like the Psycommu units were, which are what I associate with super prototypes. 

 

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Given that the Fire Valkyrie spent the first half of Macross 7 accomplishing basically nothing on the battlefield, I'd question that assertion.

If Basara had been loaded up with live ammo instead of speaker pods, he'd have wrecked at least a couple of waves worth of Varauta single handedly... And no one in the whole setting so much as touched his VF for a good long while, and they tried *very hard*, because he was making such a nuisance of himself. That was part skill, and part superior specs. 

Though I will admit Basara is the kind of person who'd be challenged to no-damage pacifist run the complete Touhou series with a Guitar Hero controller, only hear the word "guitar", and then do it. In one go. Without having heard of the game before.

 

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's not a nerf... by definition, a "nerf" is a change that weakens something to make it less effective.

The refinements Shinsei Industry made to the VF-19 in the second production type didn't reduce its performance.  It actually has higher performance than the prototype and first production type, but with improved handling that means that pilots can draw out that performance more readily without the risk of losing control of the aircraft.  The instability of the prototype made it highly effective in the hands of the tiny handful of people who could actually handle it but was nevertheless a design flaw rather than a feature because the VF-19 not developed to be an elite special forces VF... it was intended as a main VF.  In practice, it's more of a buff since it made the even-more-powerful second production type something that could be deployed in larger numbers.  It went from "awesome but hilariously impractical" to "awesome but expensive".

 

It's a nerf in the sense that there are maneuvers that the VF-19 and VF-22 cannot do, that the YF-19 and YF-21 could, due to feature removal, or added safety restrictions. Isamu in a stock VF-19A vs Isamu in the Alpha One would be in the Alpha One's favor, because production plane wouldn't let Isamu pull some of the stuff he did with the prototype. Yes, it wouldn't have been any good like that as a mass production unit, but that's.... basically how the first couple of Gundams worked too. Awesome but impractical for general issue.

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Just one or two things... and one is in "certain point of view" territory, TBH.

Ironically, Macross Chronicle actually presents those removals as improvements too... crediting them with a significant cost reduction and reduced weight that improved the final aircraft's performance and operation rate.  Despite the removals, it's also explicitly indicated to have performance comparable to, or superior to, the prototype... so I'm not sure it can be said the removals are a nerf with a straight face.

Cutting out the free-deformation wing material doesn't seem to have adversely impacted maneuverability based on the descriptions in Chronicle, and scaling back the brain direct interface to a support system is noted to have reduced cost and weight and made the system itself stable enough to actually use, resulting in a net gain in performance not a loss according to Chronicle.  It's not a nerf, it's explicitly a buff.

Which is similar to how switching to cheaper materials and stripping out some features made the Prototype RX-78 Gundam possible to mass produce in the form of the RGM-79 GM, And again; Guld could not have defeated the X-9 Ghost in a VF-22. He could defeat the X-9 in the YF-21 because it allowed him to control his VF past the point where his body was turning into mush. I will admit that this is not generally considered a thing you should be doing, but given the circumstances, he only won because of it and no other machine of its day or five years into the future would have let him do it.

So. Nerfed. Watered-down. Feature-incomplete. 

The VF-19 and VF-22 were better general purpose machines.

The YF-19 and YF-21 were super prototypes that could do things the production ones could not. 

The margin is not *as* large as the margin between the Gundam and the GM, but it's there. 

Edited May 16 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

The RX-78, of which at least 5 examples were made according to the lore (though only one was in the anime); and the RX-178 of which at least three were made that *are* in the anime? *those* unique, OP machines, that could be bested by mass production units in one on one if the opponent was skilled enough?

Nothing about the definition of a Super Prototype stipulates that it can't be defeated by a sufficiently experienced enemy (or because of its pilot's own inexperience).

But yes, the RX-78 Gundam codified the Super Prototype trope in the mecha genre.  There was only one of them in the entire story, and its capabilities were far beyond any of the other mobile suits of its generation had.  Zeon didn't have a MS that could rival its performance until the Gelgoog was introduced right at the end of the war.  The Gundam had a special armor material that made it largely impervious to enemy fire, it had a special learning computer that made it get better at fighting the more it fought, it had the ability to swap out parts on the fly, it had a bunch of special weapons the other mobile suits didn't, etc. etc.  It was power overwhelming to the extent that Zeon intrinsically knew that the White Devil's presence meant sh*t had gone off and it was rightly feared by the Principality's forces clear through to the end of the war.

It's the same principle as the YF-29.  You only see one in the story because one is game-breaking enough... even if there are potentially others doing the same elsewhere.

Spoiler

WRT the RX-178, it was deliberately downplayed by Zeta Gundam's creative team because it wasn't even originally supposed to be in the series.  They struggled to finalize the design of the titular Zeta Gundam, so the RX-178 was created as a stopgap design to be used in the first two cours before the show's properly broken-AF Gundam showed up as a mid-season upgrade.  Zeta actually played with the trope much more heavily than the previous series too, with the Titans also having a series of super prototypes made by Scirocco.

 

 

23 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

If Basara had been loaded up with live ammo instead of speaker pods, [...]

"If."

But he didn't, so it's not a valid point... and Basara's machine isn't a Super Prototype, it's a modified production machine.  An Ace Custom.  Per Macross Chronicle, it started its life as a trial production VF-19F.

 

23 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

It's a nerf in the sense that there are maneuvers that the VF-19 and VF-22 cannot do, that the YF-19 and YF-21 could, due to feature removal, or added safety restrictions.

Here's the thing... the official writeups don't really support that assertion.

Macross Chronicle, in fact, asserts the VF-22 was actually made faster and more maneuverable than the YF-21 thanks to the changes.

Based on what's said, a sufficiently skilled pilot can still draw out that same level of performance or even better it... they've just abolished the risk of the kind of loss of control accidents from less elite pilots that scuttled adoption of the VF-19 and YF-21 in the first place.

 

23 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Isamu in a stock VF-19A vs Isamu in the Alpha One would be in the Alpha One's favor, because production plane wouldn't let Isamu pull some of the stuff he did with the prototype.

That's not quite accurate either... the refinements to the flight control software and engines that improved the VF-19's handling came in with the second production type, the space optimized one in Macross 7 (VF-19F/S type).

The first production type exemplified by the VF-19A and VF-19C was a faithful reproduction of the YF-19 right down to the excessively finicky handling.  Indeed, that was one of the factors that put the brakes on its adoption as Next Main Fighter.  The start of model conversion training among the Earth NUNS was marked by a number of accidents caused by pilots losing control of the aircraft under high g-loads due to its excessively finicky handling.

(The reason Isamu had to roll back the flight control software on his "Isamu Special" is because that started its life as a second production type VF-19EF.  He wanted the handling of the original unstable software in all of its personnel-maiming glory.)

 

23 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Guld could not have defeated the X-9 Ghost in a VF-22. He could defeat the X-9 in the YF-21 because it allowed him to control his VF past the point where his body was turning into mush.

Guld couldn't... but that has at least as much, and likely quite a lot more, to do with the fact that Guld Goa Bowman was a civilian scientist with a Valkyrie pilot's license and not an experienced combat pilot.

Guld Goa Bowman was a civilian neuroscientist and engineer who was made test pilot on the YF-21 because he was the lead developer on the brainwave control system and the only one who could effectively troubleshoot it on the fly.  The BCS was doing most of the heavy lifting for him, otherwise he would have been hopelessly outclassed by Isamu and likely many other pilots.

And it's worth noting that there are several other pilots like Aegis Focker and Isamu Dyson who fought comparably powerful unmanned fighters using the VF-19 and won without incurring significant damage, never mind dying.  Isamu defeated the Neo Glaug prototype in Macross Plus: Game Edition, and Aegis Focker defeated multiple AIF-9 Ghosts in the course of Macross VF-X2.

 

23 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

The YF-19 and YF-21 were super prototypes that could do things the production ones could not. 

The evidence doesn't bear your conclusion out, I'm afraid... esp. with Macross Chronicle itself contradicting key points of your argument.

[JB0]

13 hours ago, SebastianP said:

... being in a Gundam was definitely not an "I Win" button for any of the early pilots. Not like, say, the Fire Valkyrie. 

It is EXPLICITLY called out in Macross 7 that Basara is an incredibly good pilot.

He's not relying on the performance of his machine, he's just so good he can fly like a genius in spite of the fact that his machine has a guitar for a flight stick.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, JB0 said:

It is EXPLICITLY called out in Macross 7 that Basara is an incredibly good pilot.

He's not relying on the performance of his machine, he's just so good he can fly like a genius in spite of the fact that his machine has a guitar for a flight stick.

Hell, it's a plot point for multiple characters that Basara is an incredibly good pilot.

Gamlin has more than one miniature breakdown over how an unkempt and borderline unemployed rando like Basara is a better pilot than he is as a NUNS Special Forces ace.