Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[JB0]

22 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Hmm 

Guld: "Well, if we can treat the laws of motion like suggestions, we can have a  near certainty of the YF-21 winning. After all, it's not like I'm going to square off against a suped up Ghost."

"Okay, yeah. The pilot's brain is part of the computer system and if they were mentally unstable the plane would be wildly unpredictable. Good thing I'm not crazy!" *pops some pills*

[cheemingwan1234]

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

"Okay, yeah. The pilot's brain is part of the computer system and if they were mentally unstable the plane would be wildly unpredictable. Good thing I'm not crazy!" *pops some pills*

Guld: *Sneakily hides more pills.

 

Meanwhile at Shinsei.

Yang: "Thia is the sixth crash that happened to the YF-19 prototype! And fatal too!"

Technician: "Maybe Shinsei should start a funeral home subsidy."

Yang: (grumbling) "I've heard that there is a new test pilot by the name of Isamu transfering here within this week. Hope he can control this thing..."

Edited November 19, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[pengbuzz]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Partly because the YF-21 program spun off from General Galaxy's efforts to reproduce and improve upon the Queadluun-Rau battle suit for the New UN Forces.

But mainly, it's because the Inertia Vector Control System is a stupidly useful thing to have if you can reproduce it.

It's the system that gives the Queadluun-Rau its incredible maneuverability.  It's a very precise application of Gravity and Inertia Control technology that can increase or decrease the magnitude (but not the directionality) of acceleration forces on the airframe.  The Queadluun-Rau uses it to improve propellant efficiency and the output power of its engines and its verniers, allowing it to accelerate far faster than it would be able to unassisted, to turn more sharply, to make sudden starts and stops that would otherwise be impossible, etc.  As a byproduct of its operation, it also protects the cockpit and airframe from the additional g-forces those impossible maneuvers would ordinarily incur.  It's incredibly complex and hard to manufacture, but it's such a boon to performance that there's no way General Galaxy was going to pass on it while the factory satellite to manufacture it was under their control.

And so such a system would also increase the service lifetime of an airframe and other components by reducing the stresses and the subsequent wear from those stresses, right?

[Seto Kaiba]

17 hours ago, JB0 said:

"Okay, yeah. The pilot's brain is part of the computer system and if they were mentally unstable the plane would be wildly unpredictable. Good thing I'm not crazy!" *pops some pills*

To be fair, he was doing just fine with it until the personification of his berserk button was assigned to pilot the YF-19.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

And so such a system would also increase the service lifetime of an airframe and other components by reducing the stresses and the subsequent wear from those stresses, right?

Probably not.  The Inertia Vector Control System is only active when it's changing the intensity of an acceleration force on the airframe, so the frame is still going to see all of the stress it would encounter in normal operation.  It would just be spared the excess stresses caused by the maneuvers assisted by the IVCS.

And if we take Master File at its word, certain systems like the engines were already suffering shortened lifespans due to the excessive performance being demanded from them.

[pengbuzz]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:12 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

To be fair, he was doing just fine with it until the personification of his berserk button was assigned to pilot the YF-19.

 

Probably not.  The Inertia Vector Control System is only active when it's changing the intensity of an acceleration force on the airframe, so the frame is still going to see all of the stress it would encounter in normal operation.  It would just be spared the excess stresses caused by the maneuvers assisted by the IVCS.

And if we take Master File at its word, certain systems like the engines were already suffering shortened lifespans due to the excessive performance being demanded from them.

Well, increase it in comparison to how long it would last given the excessive performance asked of it.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, increase it in comparison to how long it would last given the excessive performance asked of it.

Potentially.

They don't actually state that it will... though if the books for the VF-31 are any indication, it could potentially also be making the structural fatigue issues worse not better.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[DownIsUp]

I'm sure this topic has been broached before, but I've seen a few people on these and other forums talking about how the VF-24 is orders of magnitude more impressive than the yf-24 specs sent to the various emigration fleets. Is there any info to substantiate those claims at all, or is it all just power scaling hearsay? Also, I know the Vf-29 had tests run to see if fold carbon could stand in for fold quartz to disappointing results. Given the impressive base specs of the plane even without the fold resonance system tho, I was wondering if it saw any official production in spite of the fold carbon's failure to perform 

[sketchley]

10 minutes ago, DownIsUp said:

I'm sure this topic has been broached before, but I've seen a few people on these and other forums talking about how the VF-24 is orders of magnitude more impressive than the yf-24 specs sent to the various emigration fleets. Is there any info to substantiate those claims at all, or is it all just power scaling hearsay?(...)

There's not much—if any—specifics on it.  I think it was mentioned that a single VF-24 (or a small squad of them) could successfully overcome the defences of something like an Eden class planet.

As for specifics, we've only been able to infer some of its capabilities.  Such as the comparatively "limited" capabilities of the YF-24 being brought up to something equivalent to the VF-24 by using Ex-Gear (in the VF-25), or cyborg pilots (the "Cyber-grunts" in the VF-27).  In other words, the 'impressive' capabilities of the VF-24 aren't so much the destructiveness and variety of its weapons, but its speeds and manoeuvrability.

Edited November 23, 2023 by sketchley

[azrael]

42 minutes ago, DownIsUp said:

... but I've seen a few people on these and other forums talking about how the VF-24 is orders of magnitude more impressive than the yf-24 specs sent to the various emigration fleets. Is there any info to substantiate those claims at all, or is it all just power scaling hearsay?

It's hearsay and conjecture based on text in the Master File books and some materials for the YF-29. As mentioned, we don't have any real data nor evidence to back up any of it. Is any of it actually canon? 🤷‍♂️ As @sketchley has indicated, people may be mis-interpreting the YF-24 destructive capabilities in terms of firepower when its power may be in its engine/airframe performance and maneuverability. But since we don't have any documented evidence of that either...🤷‍♂️

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, DownIsUp said:

I'm sure this topic has been broached before, but I've seen a few people on these and other forums talking about how the VF-24 is orders of magnitude more impressive than the yf-24 specs sent to the various emigration fleets. Is there any info to substantiate those claims at all, or is it all just power scaling hearsay?

As others have noted, we haven't got any hard info on the actual performance of the VF-24.  It's an inference based on several statements about the YF-24 Evolution and YF-29 in official material:

1. Ever since the Sharon Apple Incident in 2040, the New UN Government has placed significant restrictions on arms exports to emigrant governments intended to ensure that cutting-edge weapons don't end up in the hands of anti-government rebels and that the central New UN Forces will always have The Biggest Stick.
2. The YF-24 Evolution that was approved for mass production as Earth's 5th Gen main fighter was a beast that was able to solo a squadron-strength mixed force of 4th Gen VFs and Ghosts in simulated air combat.
3. The New UN Government's restrictions on arms exports led to the YF-24 Evolution spec shared to emigrant governments being redacted in various areas (to preserve the advantage of Earth's version), requiring emigrant governments to fill in the gaps with their own technology that would result in inferior performance.
4. Descriptions of the YF-29 that describe it as having been developed in secret to surpass the YF-24.  

Especially that last one... even though it's a fairly safe assumption that the production version of the YF-24 Evolution (VF-24A) exceeds the performance of the VF-25 by a not-inconsiderable margin, the implication that the YF-29 is the lengths they had to go to in order to surpass the YF-24 Evolution makes it sound like the YF-24 Evolution (which is produced as the VF-24A) was one hell of an aircraft.  Made worse, perhaps, by the confirmation that even as of 2068 the YF-29 is The Strongest Valkyrie and that the New UN Forces are allegedly trying to find a way to mass produce the YF-29 as a possible 6th Generation successor for the VF-24.

 

3 hours ago, DownIsUp said:

Also, I know the Vf-29 had tests run to see if fold carbon could stand in for fold quartz to disappointing results. Given the impressive base specs of the plane even without the fold resonance system tho, I was wondering if it saw any official production in spite of the fold carbon's failure to perform 

Ah, you're probably remembering that from when I did a rundown of the VF-31AX Master File earlier in this thread.

Master File is not official setting material, but in the case of the VF-31AX book it's also the ONLY source of info we have for the mecha in Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! so we're kinda stuck with it until we get something better.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus offers an explanation of the post-Frontier YF-29 as a backhanded way of explaining Maximilian Jenius's YF-29 in the Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! movie.  It builds on what was previously established in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy about New UN Forces attempts to replicate the YF-29, and establishes three different YF-29s:

• YF-29A: the Macross Frontier fleet's original YF-29 seen in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye.  Effectively a one-of-a-kind aircraft that cannot be reproduced due to its fold wave system incorporating ultra-high purity fold quartz from Vajra queens, boasting the highest performance of any YF-29.
• YF-29B: an improved version of the YF-29 produced in very limited quantities for the New UN Forces.  It's a more complete aircraft than the initial prototype and has higher performance in some areas.  Master File added the additional detail that its fold wave system is inferior to the YF-29A's because the highest purity fold quartz available by normal means is not able to match the output of the YF-29A's Vajra fold quartz.  Max's YF-29 was one of these.
• YF-29C: a Master File original that has not appeared in animation.  Said to be a New UN Forces experiment in making the YF-29 viable for mass production by substituting ultra-high purity synthetic fold carbon for fold quartz.  It did technically work... but its fold wave system was only able to achieve 1% of the output of the YF-29A fold wave system.

The whole topic, and especially the YF-29C, was something used as part of a larger discussion to illustrate the challenges the New UN Government and New UN Forces face in attempting to develop a 6th Generation main VF... as they've retroactively recharacterized the YF-29 (and possibly YF-30) as 6th Generation prototypes and explain the VF-31AX from the movie as a rushed and sloppy application of prototype 6th Gen VF parts to the battle-damaged VF-31 Siegfrieds.  Improvements in fold carbon synthesis will allow for continued improvements in reactor temperatures, engine output, and beam weapons... but without the ability to synthesize fold quartz they're hit a wall in applying technologies like Inertia Store Converters and Fold Wave Systems.  With fold quartz only being available from Protoculture ruins or old Vajra nests, the number of ISCs that can be made at a time is limited, and there's no way to guarantee a supply of fold quartz to manufacture fold wave systems.  A production-ready 6th Generation VF is something of a pipe dream because of this roadblock.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:20 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Potentially.

They don't actually state that it will... though if the books for the VF-31 are any indication, it could potentially also be making the structural fatigue issues worse not better.

 

AKA Valkyrie Pretzel O.o

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As others have noted, we haven't got any hard info on the actual performance of the VF-24.  It's an inference based on several statements about the YF-24 Evolution and YF-29 in official material:

1. Ever since the Sharon Apple Incident in 2040, the New UN Government has placed significant restrictions on arms exports to emigrant governments intended to ensure that cutting-edge weapons don't end up in the hands of anti-government rebels and that the central New UN Forces will always have The Biggest Stick.
2. The YF-24 Evolution that was approved for mass production as Earth's 5th Gen main fighter was a beast that was able to solo a squadron-strength mixed force of 4th Gen VFs and Ghosts in simulated air combat.
3. The New UN Government's restrictions on arms exports led to the YF-24 Evolution spec shared to emigrant governments being redacted in various areas (to preserve the advantage of Earth's version), requiring emigrant governments to fill in the gaps with their own technology that would result in inferior performance.
4. Descriptions of the YF-29 that describe it as having been developed in secret to surpass the YF-24.  

Especially that last one... even though it's a fairly safe assumption that the production version of the YF-24 Evolution (VF-24A) exceeds the performance of the VF-25 by a not-inconsiderable margin, the implication that the YF-29 is the lengths they had to go to in order to surpass the YF-24 Evolution makes it sound like the YF-24 Evolution (which is produced as the VF-24A) was one hell of an aircraft.  Made worse, perhaps, by the confirmation that even as of 2068 the YF-29 is The Strongest Valkyrie and that the New UN Forces are allegedly trying to find a way to mass produce the YF-29 as a possible 6th Generation successor for the VF-24.

Really makes me wish we could have seen the YF-24 Evolution onscreen in combat. Guess that's not happening anytime soon (if ever).

 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The whole topic, and especially the YF-29C, was something used as part of a larger discussion to illustrate the challenges the New UN Government and New UN Forces face in attempting to develop a 6th Generation main VF... as they've retroactively recharacterized the YF-29 (and possibly YF-30) as 6th Generation prototypes and explain the VF-31AX from the movie as a rushed and sloppy application of prototype 6th Gen VF parts to the battle-damaged VF-31 Siegfrieds.  Improvements in fold carbon synthesis will allow for continued improvements in reactor temperatures, engine output, and beam weapons... but without the ability to synthesize fold quartz they're hit a wall in applying technologies like Inertia Store Converters and Fold Wave Systems.  With fold quartz only being available from Protoculture ruins or old Vajra nests, the number of ISCs that can be made at a time is limited, and there's no way to guarantee a supply of fold quartz to manufacture fold wave systems.  A production-ready 6th Generation VF is something of a pipe dream because of this roadblock.

So basically, they're stuck until if/ when they can synthesize fold quartz. And I imagine this is holding back any other governments in the Macross universe (insofar as ones we've encountered thus far). Makes me wonder if this will still be an issue in the upcoming Macross series, or if part of the plot will be the ability to produce fold quartz....

Edited November 23, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

AKA Valkyrie Pretzel O.o

Sudden starts and stops are where g-forces peak to damaging levels a lot of the time... esp. with the pilot.

Kind of like how Xaos Valkyrie Works's modification to the VF-31's ISC made it damage the airframe by changing the ISC's discharge mode from continuous to event-based when the load on the aircraft dropped below a set level.  Suddenly throwing more g-forces onto the airframe like that was torquing it and causing damage.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Really makes me wish we could have seen the YF-24 Evolution onscreen in combat. Guess that's not happening anytime soon (if ever).

Yeah, unless the Earth/central NUNS shows up, we'll likely not see the VF-24.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

So basically, they're stuck until if/ when they can synthesize fold quartz. And I imagine this is holding back any other governments in the Macross universe (insofar as ones we've encountered thus far). Makes me wonder if this will still be an issue in the upcoming Macross series, or if part of the plot will be the ability to produce fold quartz....

Kind of, yeah.  

Assuming the New UN Forces are dead-set on making something like a fold reheat system or fold wave system a core feature of 6th Generation VFs the way Macross Delta and the VF-31 and VF-31AX Master Files have indicated they are, they only really have a few options available to them.  They either have to find the motherlode of fold quartz somewhere in the galaxy, find a way to synthesize fold quartz, or modify these fold resonance effect systems in some way or other that makes them work with high-grade synthetic fold carbon.

(I'd assume it's probably going to continue to be the excuse for why 5th Gen VFs will be the standard for a while yet.)

[TG Remix]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kind of like how Xaos Valkyrie Works's modification to the VF-31's ISC made it damage the airframe by changing the ISC's discharge mode from continuous to event-based when the load on the aircraft dropped below a set level.  Suddenly throwing more g-forces onto the airframe like that was torquing it and causing damage.

Something I've been meaning to ask, what difference there is between the VF-25 lineage's Inertia Store Converter and the VF-22 and Queadluun Rau/Rhea's Inertia Vector Control? I know the former was directly inspired by the latter, but would it also be easier to mass produce considering that's what they had in mind for the VF-25 and VF-31's?

 

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, unless the Earth/central NUNS shows up, we'll likely not see the VF-24.

Kawamori doesn't really have the tendency to go back to older designs (unless it's the VF-1), especially if he never drew them beforehand; The YF-24 was never really shown officially unless it's the diagram we see in Frontier, and it really just looks like a VF-25 but with delta wings instead.

Though we know Earth pretty much has all the power, but when you also say Central UN would that also encompass the 100-light-year radius of their control as well?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Something I've been meaning to ask, what difference there is between the VF-25 lineage's Inertia Store Converter and the VF-22 and Queadluun Rau/Rhea's Inertia Vector Control? I know the former was directly inspired by the latter, but would it also be easier to mass produce considering that's what they had in mind for the VF-25 and VF-31's?

The Inertia Vector Control System is a device that improves the maneuverability and propellant efficiency of a VF or Battle Suit by manipulating the magnitude of the acceleration forces acting on the airframe.  It can't produce new forces on its own, but it can increase or decrease the magnitude of an existing force from something like the control surfaces, verniers, main engines, etc. allegedly without limit as long as there's adequate power available.  Using it, a VF that might only be capable of 10G from a standing start could boost that 10G of acceleration to, say, 20G.  Or it could allow for rapid deceleration by shrinking that acceleration vector to almost nothing or amplifying the braking force.  One example given is that it can manipulate the forces produced by control surfaces and verniers to produce turns that don't decelerate the aircraft.  Its ability to protect the aircraft from very high g-forces is incidental, since the change in the magnitude of acceleration vectors is applied uniformly across the airframe.  The pilot will still experience any g-forces from the maneuvers unassisted by the system, but they will be insulated from the g-force additions and subtractions the system makes.

The Inertia Store Converter is a device that has one job: it protects the pilot and the airframe from excessive g-forces that could cause injury or damage by taking g-forces over a set limit and temporarily storing those forces extradimensionally before returning them to the aircraft in a safe and controlled manner.  It doesn't provide any performance boost itself, it just allows the pilot to use the aircraft to its maximum potential safely.  So if you want to accelerate at the VF-25's maximum of 30.5G, the ISC will store a portion of that (up to 27.5G for 120 seconds).  You'll only feel 3G or so while you're accelerating, but once you stop accelerating you'll feel the returning g-forces at low levels... so instead of 10 seconds at 30.5G, you'll get 10 seconds at 3G and then about 30 seconds of 2G as that energy is slowly restored to the aircraft in a controlled and safe manner.

The Inertia Vector Control System's gravitational shenanigans can be achieved with (very high purity) fold carbon, so it can be mass produced at a low rate by the New UN Government.

The Inertia Store Converter's more complex gravitational and dimensional shenanigans require fold quartz that the New UN Gov't cannot synthesize, so they are dependent on reserves of fold quartz from Vajra hives and Protoculture ruins.

 

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though we know Earth pretty much has all the power, but when you also say Central UN would that also encompass the 100-light-year radius of their control as well?

To put it in an American-friendly context, the central New UN Forces are kind of like the main armed forces and the individual emigrant government New UN Forces are like the various arms of the National Guard. 

Or in a European-friendly context, the central New UN Forces would be like the European Army that Germany wants to have which exists above the various national military forces the European Union's member nations have.

Each New UN Gov't member state (be it a fleet or planet) has its own defense force that operates under the auspices of the New UN Forces... but then there's the New UN Forces maintained by the New UN Government itself... the supranational armed forces... that are leveraged when a New UN Government member state is REALLY threatened or when a threat exists that endangers the ENTIRE New UN Government.  One of the most frequently depicted arms of the central New UN Forces are the VF-X Special Forces, their elite troubleshooters.

[TG Remix]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Inertia Vector Control System's gravitational shenanigans can be achieved with (very high purity) fold carbon, so it can be mass produced at a low rate by the New UN Government.

The Inertia Store Converter's more complex gravitational and dimensional shenanigans require fold quartz that the New UN Gov't cannot synthesize, so they are dependent on reserves of fold quartz from Vajra hives and Protoculture ruins.

I was under the impression the latter was a way to make the former easier to mass-produce. But then I remember fold quartz and with those it's usually the exact opposite. 😅 Though the mentioning of g-forces got me thinking how weird it was that instead of judging the Queadluun's Rhea's performance with a regular cruising and max cruising distance in mach speed, it's judged on how fast it accelerates (up to 25Gs, but with the ICS it's reduced to 18Gs.) Makes it a bit hard to calculate and compare how well it performs compared to other Valkyries that's not the VF-25.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Each New UN Gov't member state (be it a fleet or planet) has its own defense force that operates under the auspices of the New UN Forces... but then there's the New UN Forces maintained by the New UN Government itself... the supranational armed forces... that are leveraged when a New UN Government member state is REALLY threatened or when a threat exists that endangers the ENTIRE New UN Government.  One of the most frequently depicted arms of the central New UN Forces are the VF-X Special Forces, their elite troubleshooters.

So it's more on specific areas the Central government has the most influence as opposed to a generalized area of sorts. It's easy to understand in that case, IIRC that's what keeps Planet Divide (I will never get over that name 🤣), Kaname's homeworld, under a constant state of civil war.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Inertia Vector Control System is a device that improves the maneuverability and propellant efficiency of a VF or Battle Suit by manipulating the magnitude of the acceleration forces acting on the airframe.  It can't produce new forces on its own, but it can increase or decrease the magnitude of an existing force from something like the control surfaces, verniers, main engines, etc. allegedly without limit as long as there's adequate power available.  Using it, a VF that might only be capable of 10G from a standing start could boost that 10G of acceleration to, say, 20G.  Or it could allow for rapid deceleration by shrinking that acceleration vector to almost nothing or amplifying the braking force.  One example given is that it can manipulate the forces produced by control surfaces and verniers to produce turns that don't decelerate the aircraft.  Its ability to protect the aircraft from very high g-forces is incidental, since the change in the magnitude of acceleration vectors is applied uniformly across the airframe.  The pilot will still experience any g-forces from the maneuvers unassisted by the system, but they will be insulated from the g-force additions and subtractions the system makes.

The Inertia Store Converter is a device that has one job: it protects the pilot and the airframe from excessive g-forces that could cause injury or damage by taking g-forces over a set limit and temporarily storing those forces extradimensionally before returning them to the aircraft in a safe and controlled manner.  It doesn't provide any performance boost itself, it just allows the pilot to use the aircraft to its maximum potential safely.  So if you want to accelerate at the VF-25's maximum of 30.5G, the ISC will store a portion of that (up to 27.5G for 120 seconds).  You'll only feel 3G or so while you're accelerating, but once you stop accelerating you'll feel the returning g-forces at low levels... so instead of 10 seconds at 30.5G, you'll get 10 seconds at 3G and then about 30 seconds of 2G as that energy is slowly restored to the aircraft in a controlled and safe manner.

The Inertia Vector Control System's gravitational shenanigans can be achieved with (very high purity) fold carbon, so it can be mass produced at a low rate by the New UN Government.

The Inertia Store Converter's more complex gravitational and dimensional shenanigans require fold quartz that the New UN Gov't cannot synthesize, so they are dependent on reserves of fold quartz from Vajra hives and Protoculture ruins.

Could the two systems be combined to work in tandem, with the ISC feeding extra inertia to the ISC?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I was under the impression the latter was a way to make the former easier to mass-produce. But then I remember fold quartz and with those it's usually the exact opposite. 😅 

Past discussions did put a lot of focus on the Inertia Vector Control System's ability to protect the cockpit from g-forces based on remarks in Macross Chronicle's coverage of the Queadluun-Rhea/56 battle suit used by the New UN Forces and SMS... so that's an understandable point.

(And admittedly the explanation of the Inertia Vector Control System itself is extremely vague in the few sources that cover it... Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II was the clearest and most complete one, and that came thirty years after the system was first introduced in Macross Perfect Memory.)

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Though the mentioning of g-forces got me thinking how weird it was that instead of judging the Queadluun's Rhea's performance with a regular cruising and max cruising distance in mach speed, it's judged on how fast it accelerates (up to 25Gs, but with the ICS it's reduced to 18Gs.) Makes it a bit hard to calculate and compare how well it performs compared to other Valkyries that's not the VF-25.

Which is actually more sensible considering these craft are mainly used in space... since one's top speed in space is limited by only two factors: c and how long your fuel supplies can sustain acceleration.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

So it's more on specific areas the Central government has the most influence as opposed to a generalized area of sorts. It's easy to understand in that case, IIRC that's what keeps Planet Divide (I will never get over that name 🤣), Kaname's homeworld, under a constant state of civil war.

Divide's perpetual beef with itself is that it couldn't pick a side in the Second Unification War... half the planet declared for the pro-autonomy faction (Vindirance's side) and half declared for the pro-centralization faction (Latence's side).  Years later, they apparently still haven't settled the matter.  Either that, or they've decided their planetary "hat" is to be Space Northern Ireland.

 

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Could the two systems be combined to work in tandem, with the ISC feeding extra inertia to the ISC?

The two systems work fundamentally differently, as far as I can tell... so I'm not sure if they could operate together or if the VF could generate enough power to operate both at once.

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The two systems work fundamentally differently, as far as I can tell... so I'm not sure if they could operate together or if the VF could generate enough power to operate both at once.

It would be interesting to see if they could be built into one system that insulates the pilot from the g-stresses but still allows for maneuverability enhancement.

Or... I might be confusing things here and just making a recipe for cockpit salsa.

[JB0]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Or... I might be confusing things here and just making a recipe for cockpit salsa.

There's entirely too many recipes for that in Macross.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

It would be interesting to see if they could be built into one system that insulates the pilot from the g-stresses but still allows for maneuverability enhancement.

Or... I might be confusing things here and just making a recipe for cockpit salsa.

Eh... all things considered, probably not a great idea to try to combine them.

Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines already have ridiculous amounts of thrust, so there's not really a huge NEED for the performance boost the Inertia Vector Control System had previously offered to the much less powerful (comparatively, but in absolute terms still bonkers over-the-top) thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines from the previous generation.

That said, that's kind of where 6th Generation VFs are headed... except instead of multiple inertia control methods, it's a system that synergistically boosts the performance of the engines and inertia store converter, the Fold Wave System.

[pengbuzz]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:44 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... all things considered, probably not a great idea to try to combine them.

Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines already have ridiculous amounts of thrust, so there's not really a huge NEED for the performance boost the Inertia Vector Control System had previously offered to the much less powerful (comparatively, but in absolute terms still bonkers over-the-top) thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines from the previous generation.

That said, that's kind of where 6th Generation VFs are headed... except instead of multiple inertia control methods, it's a system that synergistically boosts the performance of the engines and inertia store converter, the Fold Wave System.

You might want to see the spoiler for what I just thought might occur if they did combine them.

 

On 11/25/2023 at 5:16 AM, JB0 said:

There's entirely too many recipes for that in Macross.

You mean like this one:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by pengbuzz

[cheemingwan1234]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

You mean like this one:

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Pity Makima having to clean out what's left of Messer.

Okay, If I remember correctly, the reason for why the YF-19 and YF-21 FAST Packs were quite barebones in comparison to the previous FAST Packs were that they have much better propellant capacity and engines in comparison to the previous models, negating the need for boosters, so why the reasoning for boosters coming back from 7 onwards?

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[azrael]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

If I remember correctly, the reason for why the YF-19 and YF-21 FAST Packs were quite barebones in comparison to the previous FAST Packs were that they have much better propellant capacity and engines in comparison to the previous models, negating the need for boosters, so why the reasoning for boosters coming back from 7 onwards?

Extra ordnance & thrust capacity.

[cheemingwan1234]

Anyone thinks that the way General Galaxy does things is kinda similar to the often memetic design of how British WW2 AFVs were developed.

 

"The UN Spacy wants a special operations Variable Fighter."

 

"Make a transforming F-117 with high micro missile capability."

 

"Our YF-21 lost Project Super Nova to the YF-19!"

 

"Redesign the YF-21 as a high performance special operations VF!"

 

"Our rival's VF-19 is too uncontrollable for average pilots"

"DETUNE THAT TRANSFORMING F-117 AND REDESIGN IT TO BE EASILY PILOTED BY GRUNTS"

 

And of course the Frontier Fleet.

 

"The Varja are quite difficult to take down with coventional firepower."

"Shrink down some Dimension Eaters to be fired from our gunpods."

 

"They're proving difficult to kill with bullets!"

"Here's a VF-sized beam cannon with similar effects to a Dimension Eater!"

 

"We don't have enough VF-25s to go around!"

"UPGRADE SOME NIGHTMARE PLUSES WITH VF-19 ENGINES AND EX-GEAR."

Edited November 26, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[Bolt]

Adapt and overcome. 

[JB0]

45 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Anyone thinks that the way General Galaxy does things is kinda similar to the often memetic design of how British WW2 AFVs were developed.

 

"The UN Spacy wants a special operations Variable Fighter."

 

"Make a transforming F-117 with high micro missile capability."

 

"Our YF-21 lost Project Super Nova to the YF-19!"

 

"Redesign the YF-21 as a high performance special operations VF!"

 

"Our rival's VF-19 is too uncontrollable for average pilots"

"DETUNE THAT TRANSFORMING F-117 AND REDESIGN IT TO BE EASILY PILOTED BY GRUNTS"

 

And of course the Frontier Fleet.

 

"The Varja are quite difficult to take down with coventional firepower."

"Shrink down some Dimension Eaters to be fired from our gunpods."

 

"They're proving difficult to kill with bullets!"

"Here's a VF-sized beam cannon with similar effects to a Dimension Eater!"

 

"We don't have enough VF-25s to go around!"

"UPGRADE SOME NIGHTMARE PLUSES WITH VF-19 ENGINES AND EX-GEAR."

The real moral of this story is the F-117 is the only plane you need.

[cheemingwan1234]

25 minutes ago, JB0 said:

The real moral of this story is the F-117 is the only plane you need.

Considering the Nightmare Plus is still running around during the events of Delta....yeah, when the age of man is over in the Macross universe, the testaments to it's existence would be warehouses of VF-171s waiting to be deployed once again.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Pity Makima having to clean out what's left of Messer.

Nah, that one probably got handed off to some summer intern.

 

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Okay, If I remember correctly, the reason for why the YF-19 and YF-21 FAST Packs were quite barebones in comparison to the previous FAST Packs were that they have much better propellant capacity and engines in comparison to the previous models, negating the need for boosters,

That's part of it, yes.

The YF-19 and YF-21's new generation of engine technology - thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines - offered a significant improvement over the previous generation(s) of engine technology in terms of thrust output, fuel/propellant efficiency, and power conversion efficiency.  This and the increased internal storage offered by the larger airframes of both meant that FAST Packs were no longer strictly necessary to provide the VF with an adequate operating time in space.  The minimalist design of the packs allowed additional armament to be mounted with almost no impact to the VF's passive stealth performance (and thus only a minimal burden on its active stealth system) and the smallest possible impact to the VF's maneuverability and acceleration performance.

 

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

so why the reasoning for boosters coming back from 7 onwards?

Sometimes... especially if you know the enemy will detect you anyway... it's just better to have MORE DAKKA.

The previous paragraph describes what was essentially the tipping point in FAST Pack design.  Once VFs had engines and internal fuel capacities sufficient to operate in space for a reasonable amount of time without bolt-on fuel tanks and/or using rocket boosters to take the burden of thrust production off the thermonuclear engines as much ass possible, those now-technically unnecessary fuel tanks and rocket boosters could be repurposed to offset the mass of a truly breathtaking amount of weaponry instead.

 

40 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Anyone thinks that the way General Galaxy does things is kinda similar to the often memetic design of how British WW2 AFVs were developed.

Not really?  General Galaxy's design process seems to be quite deliberate and well-considered.  They're not just throwing random stuff at the walls to see what sticks.  Their issue seems to be that their designers are much more willing to break with established convention and apply larger amounts of Zentradi overtechnology in their carefully workshopped designs.  It hurts them as often as it helps them.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Adapt and overcome. 

Instead of "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." the General Galaxy corporation seems to have:

"Improvise. Adapt. Lose the main fighter contract to Shinsei anyway because we keep forgetting this is a lowest bidder process."

The one time they actually beat Shinsei Industry for the main fighter contract was their most orthodox design ever.

 

 

6 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Considering the Nightmare Plus is still running around during the events of Delta....yeah, when the age of man is over in the Macross universe, the testaments to it's existence would be warehouses of VF-171s waiting to be deployed once again.

The Nightmare Plus isn't that old... as of Macross Delta, it's only about twenty years old.  It's got another decade or more before it'll actually be phased out of frontline service.  The VF-25 is set to come in sometime in the early 2060s, but it'll take YEARS to phase it in and phase the VF-171s out, and the Brisingr Alliance NUNS is set to formally adopt the VF-31 as its replacement sometime in 2069 or 2070, and it'll similarly take years to retrain pilots and retire the old VF-171s.

The New UN Forces were still in the process of retiring their VF-11s in 2058, almost thirty years after they were introduced.

[Hiriyu]

40 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

...yeah, when the age of man is over in the Macross universe, the testaments to it's existence would be warehouses of VF-171s waiting to be deployed once again.

That would actually be a cool storyline to explore: In the far future, a newly spacefaring PC-descended species discovers a long-derelict Factory Satellite rigged for variable fighter production. Giant WTF moment occurs.

[pengbuzz]

4 minutes ago, Hiriyu said:

That would actually be a cool storyline to explore: In the far future, a newly spacefaring PC-descended species discovers a long-derelict Factory Satellite rigged for variable fighter production. Giant WTF moment occurs.

And perhaps discovers a regenerated Earth, and the remains of the human race there.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Considering the Nightmare Plus is still running around during the events of Delta....yeah, when the age of man is over in the Macross universe, the testaments to it's existence would be warehouses of VF-171s waiting to be deployed once again.

 

The holy trinity of military equipment. B-52 bombers, M2 machine guns, VF-17(1) transforming fighterbots.

[cheemingwan1234]

52 minutes ago, JB0 said:

The holy trinity of military equipment. B-52 bombers, M2 machine guns, VF-17(1) transforming fighterbots.

You forgot M1911s, M16s and AK pattern rifles.

 

And speaking of that story idea of a Macross set in the far future....wonder if that protagonist Protoculture descended race  get stumped over custom colour schemes for VFs.

 

"Hey, I wonder if those colour schemes give additional capabilities to those 'Variable Fighters'?"

"From our testing....no."

 

And I was thinking about our main protagonist accessing a recording  of various songs, ranging from Lyn Minmei, Fire Bomber and Walkure and being captivated by the music itself.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

You forgot M1911s, M16s and AK pattern rifles.

 

And speaking of that story idea of a Macross set in the far future....wonder if that protagonist Protoculture descended race  get stumped over custom colour schemes for VFs.

 

"Hey, I wonder if those colour schemes give additional capabilities to those 'Variable Fighters'?"

"From our testing....no."

 

And I was thinking about our main protagonist accessing a recording  of various songs, ranging from Lyn Minmei, Fire Bomber and Walkure and being captivated by the music itself.

 

 

Hopefully they discover that pineapples are extinct by that time...

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Hopefully they discover that pineapples are extinct by that time...

As attached as Macross is to the pineapple gag, they probably evolved from pineapples.

[Hiriyu]

22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As attached as Macross is to the pineapple gag, they probably evolved from pineapples.

You're hired. Have the draft ready by next Tuesday.