Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[JB0]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wrong franchise for that in-joke... but the level of scientific irresponsibility's about the same.

 

So you're saying the Federation is actually the Protoculture?

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, JB0 said:

So you're saying the Federation is actually the Protoculture?

Ironically, thanks to TAS Star Trek kind of already has its own equivalent of the Protoculture in the Slavers from Niven's Known Space.  

Or the Precursors from TNG.  Though the Precursors didn't really do anything overtly stupid, they just died out before the species they created evolved to sentience.

Humans in Macross basically did exactly the same thing the aliens in the pilot episode of Strange New Worlds did... "Hmmm... FTL power system.  What if we made this into a huge bomb?"  Humanity discovered an alien technology for limitless clean power and the first thing they did was make it into an unreasonably powerful bomb.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Humans in Macross basically did exactly the same thing the aliens in the pilot episode of Strange New Worlds did... "Hmmm... FTL power system.  What if we made this into a huge bomb?"  Humanity discovered an alien technology for limitless clean power and the first thing they did was make it into an unreasonably powerful bomb.

I mean, do you REALLY know how it works if you haven't made it explode?

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

I mean, do you REALLY know how it works if you haven't made it explode?

As an engineer, I can honestly say that exploding violently has always been an unintended and undesirable operating mode for any of the propulsion and power systems I have worked on.

This doesn't stop the explosions from happening, it just means we get upset and have to add notes to the FMEA when they do.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As an engineer, I can honestly say that exploding violently has always been an unintended and undesirable operating mode for any of the propulsion and power systems I have worked on.

This doesn't stop the explosions from happening, it just means we get upset and have to add notes to the FMEA when they do.

Hence the saying Safety Regulations Are Written In Blood...

[JB0]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As an engineer, I can honestly say that exploding violently has always been an unintended and undesirable operating mode for any of the propulsion and power systems I have worked on.

This doesn't stop the explosions from happening, it just means we get upset and have to add notes to the FMEA when they do.

So you're saying you DO know how to make them explode, thus proving my point!

[Master Dex]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As an engineer, I can honestly say that exploding violently has always been an unintended and undesirable operating mode for any of the propulsion and power systems I have worked on.

This doesn't stop the explosions from happening, it just means we get upset and have to add notes to the FMEA when they do.

Though this isn't universally true. Being an aerospace engineer myself, some of the things we make involve explosions in normal operations lol. Rockets technically are burning more than exploding but it's not far off. Then there is sometimes a payload that is supposed to explode.

 

 

Sometimes. 

[pengbuzz]

On 10/21/2023 at 4:09 PM, Master Dex said:

Though this isn't universally true. Being an aerospace engineer myself, some of the things we make involve explosions in normal operations lol. Rockets technically are burning more than exploding but it's not far off. Then there is sometimes a payload that is supposed to explode.

 

 

Sometimes. 

What if it's a chicken you're baking in the oven and it detonates? O.O

[Seto Kaiba]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:05 AM, JB0 said:

So you're saying you DO know how to make them explode, thus proving my point!

In principle, it's similar to the idea that "any machine has the potential to become a smoke machine if you operate it incorrectly enough".

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II has an example of that principle in action.  (See pg099)

The "Shinnakasu/OTEC FWF-1000X Fold Weapon" described therein is essentially an improvised dimensional warhead made by operating a FBF-1000A fold booster "incorrectly enough".  It was improvised by the crew of the General Galaxy transport ship GG Arrow in 2043.  When attacked by an unknown party with minimal ability to fight back, they got creative and chucked a fold booster at the enemy that was set to activate with no programmed destination... sending the target on what was theoretically a one-way trip to fold space.  While it's described as cumbersome and ineffective, it's also suggested that it was the inspiration for the later Dimension Eater weapons once a more reliable method to conduct an involuntary space fold was discovered.

 

52 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

What if it's a chicken you're baking in the oven and it detonates? O.O

... that generally means I was the one cooking, and we need to get a new fire extinguisher.

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In principle, it's similar to the idea that "any machine has the potential to become a smoke machine if you operate it incorrectly enough".

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II has an example of that principle in action.  (See pg099)

The "Shinnakasu/OTEC FWF-1000X Fold Weapon" described therein is essentially an improvised dimensional warhead made by operating a FBF-1000A fold booster "incorrectly enough".  It was improvised by the crew of the General Galaxy transport ship GG Arrow in 2043.  When attacked by an unknown party with minimal ability to fight back, they got creative and chucked a fold booster at the enemy that was set to activate with no programmed destination... sending the target on what was theoretically a one-way trip to fold space.  While it's described as cumbersome and ineffective, it's also suggested that it was the inspiration for the later Dimension Eater weapons once a more reliable method to conduct an involuntary space fold was discovered.

Interesting...in a morbid, off-handed way.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... that generally means I was the one cooking, and we need to get a new fire extinguisher.

ROFL!!!🤣

Edited October 24, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Interesting...in a morbid, off-handed way.

Yup... though when you think about it, the idea probably goes back even farther in production terms.

When Boddole Zer's mobile fortress started "decaying" at the end of DYRL?, the explanation given is that the fold systems were running out of control after the living command computer died and were teleporting chunks of the ship into fold space.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

ROFL!!!🤣

It's not even a joke... I am that bad.

[Hiriyu]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:36 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

When Boddole Zer's mobile fortress started "decaying" at the end of DYRL?, the explanation given is that the fold systems were running out of control after the living command computer died and were teleporting chunks of the ship into fold space.

That's interesting, had not heard of that explanation before, but it's a good one.

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, Hiriyu said:

That's interesting, had not heard of that explanation before, but it's a good one.

That particular tidbit comes to us from Macross Chronicle's DYRL? Mechanic Sheet 02A for the Zentradi.

[Seto Kaiba]

So... I've been poking more at Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II.  This time in the section about the FF-2450B engine.

Project Super Nova's requirements initially called for both the YF-19 and YF-21 to use the FF-2200 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engine, and the section basically starts on that topic.  Rather than focusing on refining previous generation engine designs, which according to this book owned some of their issues due to a short development cycle and a decision to adapt existing turbofan jet engine designs, the developers of the FF-2200 decided to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch.  The new engine design that team came up with prioritized efficiently extracting the energy from the thermonuclear reaction and emphasized ease of assembly and maintenance.  This same situation is also described in the Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur book, which goes further into the idea that previous-gen engines were essentially the same design just scaled up or down depending on the application with occasional improvements in materials and the like.

While the FF-2200 proved adequate for the YF-19's needs, the YF-21 was heavier and had greater energy requirements due to its size and the new technologies it adopted and the design team opted to tweak the design to increase its output.  The tweaked design became the FF-2450.

The basic structure of the FF-2450 is the same as the FF-2200, though the performance of the reactor's GIC has been improved slightly with additional fold carbon to allow the reactor to run hotter and the body of the engine has been lengthened 50cm to accommodate a longer thrust-increase section where the reaction plasma is allowed to mix with intake air.  The end result is a 15% increase in total output, paid for in a 33% reduction in operational lifespan.

This is followed by an interesting note that the non-standard systems like the Brainwave Control System and various stealth measures leave the YF-21/VF-22 needing twice the power generation capacity of the YF/VF-19.  This need is apparently addressed by doubling the number of Hamilton X-Ash 4 thermoelectric converters in the turbine body from four to eight, which has the side benefit of further reducing the exhaust temperature and thus the fighter's infrared profile.

[snakerbot]

Hang on, so what's the story with the -19's engines? The M3 lists the YF-19 as having the FF-2500E with 67,500kgf thrust each, replacing the FF-2200B with 56,500kgf each. Meanwhile, the VF-19A is listed as having those same FF-2200Bs, along with a note that says it "has been fitted with more powerful engines originally designed for the prototype". Given that note, I would expect the VF-19A to have the FF-2500E.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, snakerbot said:

Hang on, so what's the story with the -19's engines? The M3 lists the YF-19 as having the FF-2500E with 67,500kgf thrust each, replacing the FF-2200B with 56,500kgf each. Meanwhile, the VF-19A is listed as having those same FF-2200Bs, along with a note that says it "has been fitted with more powerful engines originally designed for the prototype". Given that note, I would expect the VF-19A to have the FF-2500E.

In a word, "messy".

Long story short, the specs for the YF/VF-19's engines have been presented very inconsistently over the years.  

Originally, the YF-19's two models of engine had separate specs listed and even slightly different designations.  This is Animation Special: Macross Plus OVA Edition lists the YF-19's engine as "FF-2200" was provides its output only as 56,500kgf.  This is Animation: the Select: Macross Plus Movie Edition conflicts with itself over what the YF-19's engine is called and offers two separate ones.  Page 36 mentions a "FF-2200B" rated for 56,500kgf and a "FF-2500E" rated for 67,500kgf... but page 37 refers to the first engine only as the "FF-2200" at 56,500kgf and mentions the FF-2500E not at all.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur and Macross Chronicle decided to be as unhelpful as possible and ignore one engine or the other while effectively treating both of those numbers as valid for the same engine at different regimes.  So instead they listed the 56,500kgf figure as the engine's output in atmosphere and listed its performance in space as 64,700kgf but either ignore the FF-2500E altogether or treat it as functionally interchangeable with the FF-2200 or FF-2200B.  Master File also invents several types of engine that weren't in the original spec that are used for things like the VF-19A.

Then there's Macross Plus: Game Edition and the Macross Plus Blu-ray booklet, which offers a THIRD interpretation where both the "FF-2200B" and "FF-2500E" have the same atmospheric operating output of 47,200kgf and their maximum output in space is 56,500kgf for the FF-2200B and 67,500kgf for the FF-2500E.

 

So... now that we've established that, and let's not get into the mess that the 2nd mass production type is thanks to Master File and Macross Chronicle... 

 

The VF-19A Excalibur specification comes to us initially from the Macross Digital Mission VF-X Flight Manual, which lists the engine used as "FF-2200" and lists the only output as 56,500kgf, similar to This is Animation Special: Macross Plus.  

It's possible that, somewhere along the way, some of these differing interpretations got mixed together in the writer's head and produced that questionable statement.

TL;DR: That article may need revisiting/revision.

[rematron]

This is a little off topic but something that’s been at the back of my mind for years but never vocalized maybe because it might be a stupid question. 
 

What’s up with the lack of horizontal stabilizers on Macross non-delta style airframe designs? 
 

There, I finally asked. 😅

[cheemingwan1234]

Okay, if I remember correctly, the YF-21 has a caseless gun pod (2 of em), but why does it seem to be protrayed as a energy weapon in Macross Plus rather than having a conventional muzzle flash

Did the animators get their wires crossed?

Edited November 2, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, rematron said:

What’s up with the lack of horizontal stabilizers on Macross non-delta style airframe designs? 

Removing the conventional horizontal stabilizers from the design reduces drag on the airframe.

The loss of the accompanying control surfaces (the elevators) is compensated for by angling the vertical stabilizers into so their control surfaces can serve as both the rudders and elevators ("ruddervators") and the use of thrust vectoring nozzles for pitch and roll control.

 

4 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Okay, if I remember correctly, the YF-21 has a caseless gun pod (2 of em), but why does it seem to be protrayed as a energy weapon in Macross Plus rather than having a conventional muzzle flash

Did the animators get their wires crossed?

It is drawn with a conventional muzzle flash... see episode two c.14:40.

[rematron]

@Seto Kaiba Thank you. Those are the reasons I made up in my head but it's good to hear someone confirm my fantasy. 

[cheemingwan1234]

And speaking of which, I wonder if the YF-21 has issues with ordinance options compared to the YF-19, since well, it has that morphing wing which would cause issues with underwing pylons and well, the only place to put stuff like bombs and rocket pods would be the belly....which is also the place to place the gunpods and the FAST Packs.... meaning.. either ordinance and gun pods , FAST Packs with gun pods or gun pods on that belly. Possibly the reason for why the VF-22 does not have the morphing wing besides cost. Since the VF-22 is a strike fighter, having the option to hang underwing stores like bombs might be a good idea when stealth is not required.

 

At least the YF-19 can hang underwing ordinance which would make it another winning point for it in Project Super Nova.

Edited November 2, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[pengbuzz]

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Removing the conventional horizontal stabilizers from the design reduces drag on the airframe.

The loss of the accompanying control surfaces (the elevators) is compensated for by angling the vertical stabilizers into so their control surfaces can serve as both the rudders and elevators ("ruddervators") and the use of thrust vectoring nozzles for pitch and roll control.

 

It is drawn with a conventional muzzle flash... see episode two c.14:40.

Not to mention the ventral strakes on the engine nacelles/ legs help stabilize it too, as they are angled.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

And speaking of which, I wonder if the YF-21 has issues with ordinance options compared to the YF-19, since well, it has that morphing wing which would cause issues with underwing pylons and well, the only place to put stuff like bombs and rocket pods would be the belly....which is also the place to place the gunpods and the FAST Packs.... meaning.. either ordinance and gun pods , FAST Packs with gun pods or gun pods on that belly. Possibly the reason for why the VF-22 does not have the morphing wing besides cost. Since the VF-22 is a strike fighter, having the option to hang underwing stores like bombs might be a good idea when stealth is not required.

 

At least the YF-19 can hang underwing ordinance which would make it another winning point for it in Project Super Nova.

It hasn't been described as an issue that I'm aware...

The YF-21's airframe is somewhat larger than that of the YF-19 because of its unconventional transformation but it was engineered to prioritize passive stealth performance above almost all other considerations.  It can take the same standard weapons pallets the YF-19 can, and its internal bays are roomy enough to accommodate even larger weaponry like the latest model thermonuclear reaction missile as seen in Macross 7. 

Variable Fighter Master File does depict provisions for conformal and pylon mountings of additional weaponry on the YF-21/VF-22, but it's primarily body mountings instead of using underwing pylons.

EDIT: The chart does show the option to attach pylons, though because the wings fold there are relatively few options for those stations.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[cheemingwan1234]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It hasn't been described as an issue that I'm aware...

The YF-21's airframe is somewhat larger than that of the YF-19 because of its unconventional transformation but it was engineered to prioritize passive stealth performance above almost all other considerations.  It can take the same standard weapons pallets the YF-19 can, and its internal bays are roomy enough to accommodate even larger weaponry like the latest model thermonuclear reaction missile as seen in Macross 7. 

Variable Fighter Master File does depict provisions for conformal and pylon mountings of additional weaponry on the YF-21/VF-22, but it's primarily body mountings instead of using underwing pylons.

EDIT: The chart does show the option to attach pylons, though because the wings fold there are relatively few options for those stations.

Even if the palletes and bays are roomy enough.....well, there's gonna be issues with space compared to just hanging bombs on the centerline/underwing.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Even if the palletes and bays are roomy enough.....well, there's gonna be issues with space compared to just hanging bombs on the centerline/underwing.

Only if you're concerned with carrying the absolute maximum amount of ordnance they can carry and still fly.

Both the YF-19 and YF-21 were designed to be able to carry enough weaponry for normal operations internally in order to preserve their stealthiness.  Hanging bombs, missiles, or fuel tanks on the outside of the aircraft greatly degrades passive stealth performance.  Keeping the missiles and bombs in internal bays prevents that degradation and minimizes the burden on the Valkyrie's extremely energy-hungry active stealth system as a result.  The YF-21 has even less margin than the YF-19 does, since it's larger and therefore puts a greater burden on the active stealth system already and Master File suggests the BCS's subsystems draw an enormous amount of power too.

 

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Even if the palletes and bays are roomy enough.....well, there's gonna be issues with space compared to just hanging bombs on the centerline/underwing.

Expanding on what Seto said: the (Y)VF-19 and YF-21/VF-22 were designed to sneak behind enemy lines and 'decapitate' the leadership of the enemy with 1 or 2 well placed strikes.  Therefore, turning the VF-22 into a bomb truck defeats its purpose.

It's akin to attaching a camper trailer to the back of an F1 race car—while the race car has more than enough torque to pull the load, it isn't the job the car was designed to do.

Edited November 3, 2023 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

Back in the early 2000s, several Macross featurettes in various model hobby magazines toyed with the idea of a fighter-bomber variant of the VF-22 inspired by Lockheed Martin's then-recently revealed "FB-22" fighter-bomber concept based on their F-22 Raptor fighter.

The idea might've gained official traction had the FB-22 proposal in the real world not been quickly rejected as basically unnecessary... anything it could do, a dedicated bomber could do better.

[cheemingwan1234]

So, how does manufacturing and copyright work in Macross with the colony ships and planets? I can see some colonies with detuned VF-19s and others with VF-31As or tuned up VF-11s and SV-52s due to schematics provided by differing manufacturers.

Edited November 4, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

So, how does manufacturing and copyright work in Macross with the colony ships and planets?

Based on what's said both in-story and in creator interviews... not all that differently from how it works in the real world.  

Shoji Kawamori has described the current state of affairs in the Macross setting as being like the age of sail, but with the internet.  Emigrant fleets and planets can be months or even years away from Earth by space fold, but advancements in fold communications technology and the ever-growing number of emigrant fleets and planets have turned what was once just point-to-point communications links into a massive decentralized FTL internet called the Galaxy Network.  Commerce involving the transmission of digital assets (e.g. software and cultural exports like music, movies, television shows, ebooks, etc.) can be done directly over the Galaxy Network, but when it comes to transactions involving physical goods the logistics of fold travel present serious obstacles.  

Improvements in fold technology have reduced the disparity between subjective and objective time during a fold jump over the years, but the incredible energy demands of fold navigation mean that there are still practical limits to how far you reasonably travel in a single fold.  Frontier and Delta suggest that by 2060 that practical limit on distance for a single fold jump is somewhere in the vicinity of 800-1,000 light years with adequate prep time.  We see the space equivalent of container ships for the first time in the Macross Delta TV series as they transport things like perishable foods over interstellar distances, and we know from Macross Frontier that major instellar shipping firms make colossal amounts of money shipping goods across massive interstellar distances but spend enough time doing so that they have to have their own private security forces to safeguard shipments.  When the cost of shipping goods in from elsewhere is too high - be it in time, money, or both - the option exists for emigrant governments or private companies to license whatever the product is from its original creator and manufacture it locally.

When it comes to Variable Fighters and other military hardware, what we see is a mixture of the approaches that've been taken on this topic in the real world:

• Export variants built in one locale and shipped to another for service, often stripped of proprietary systems that the developing government doesn't want the purchasing government to have.  The F-4 Phantom did a roaring trade in export variants in the 60's and 70's.  The Macross universe's main example is the VF-19P Zola Patrol model and presumably the VF-5000G and T-G versions also used by the Zola Patrol.
• Build-under-license variants where the purchasing government has the manufacturing capability but for whatever reason doesn't want to go to the trouble of designing its own aircraft.  The purchasing government buys a license to locally produce an existing design developed by another government.  Some aspects of the design might be omitted if they involve proprietary technologies subject to security restrictions.  Japan's Mitsubishi F-2 is a build-under-license version of the US's General Dynamics F-16.  The Macross universe's main examples here would be the VF-171 Nightmare Plus and the VF-19EF Caliburn.
• Use an existing concept design and previously developed technology in an original development.  The purchasing government doesn't want to do all the legwork on their own and want to sell the finished product in export themselves, so they use a mixture of original and "off the shelf" parts in an original design loosely based on a previously shared concept.  Japan's Mitsubishi F-X/F-3 is the real world example.  The Macross universe's examples would be the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31, with the VF-31 being a direct reference to the F-3.

It helps a bit in this regard that many of the major corporations involved have branch offices in different New UN Government member nations, in much the same way that various parts suppliers in the auto and aircraft industries have branch offices in different countries where they sell to local OEMs.  (For instance, how Japan's Sumitomo Electric Networks and Aisin, as well as Germany's ZF, have US branches in the Detroit area to serve the needs of the "Big 3".)

As far as intellectual property rights go, Shoji Kawamori has in the past compared the current shape of the New UN Government to the European Union.  Presumably this means that there are both national and central registries for things like copyrights and trademarks, and that those marks are respected and enforceable internationally under treaty and supranational law the way they are today.

Emigrant fleets are, by nature, mobile and this can pose problems for shipping to/from one... so there is a certain incentive to manufacture locally under license.

 

8 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

I can see some colonies with detuned VF-19s and others with VF-31As or tuned up VF-11s and SV-52s due to schematics provided by differing manufacturers.

The New UN Government gives emigrant governments quite a lot of latitude in deciding how to arm their local defense forces.

Each emigrant fleet or planet's economic situation plays a big role in how they decide to go about arming their forces.  Developing a new fighter is extraordinarily expensive and it requires quite a lot of technical expertise.  Consequently, very few emigrant governments have the resources to do so.  Typically only the ones that have the backing of one of the megacorporations and a major defense contractor like Macross Frontier (Bilra Transport, Shinsei, and LAI), Macross Galaxy (its parent company General Galaxy), Uroboros (Bilra Transport again), and the Brisingr Alliance (twenty planetary governments and regional branches of four defense contractors including Shinsei and LAI).  Even then, that's a huge capital investment those governments can't make casually or on a regular basis so they're dependent on the expectation of selling those models in export sales to recoup costs and can't develop new models at will... so export model sales and buying licenses to build existing models locally are the norm.

The lifespan of a VF, like that of a normal fighter, is finite... and older generations of VF can only be upgraded so much to keep them viable.  As we've seen a few times, upgrading VFs to/past their design's limits can adversely impact their usability and cause them to damage or even destroy themselves.  Macross the Ride's VF-1X++ Hakuna Aoba Special was the first really blunt example of this, being a Special Forces VF-1X++ that its (retired) pilot had subsequently upgraded with engines and rocket boosters that far exceeded its aerodynamic design limits... turning it into an unreliable mess that frequently cost its pilot victory in races because it could barely be controlled at all.  Macross the Ride's VF-9E was another, which had engine issues that would cause the airframe to effectively self-destruct.  There's a more subdued example in Macross Frontier with the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX, a VF-171 upgraded with EX-Gear and detuned VF-19 engines that suffered handling issues as a result of the rest of the aircraft struggling to keep up with its more powerful engines.  Macross Delta offers us two separate examples... the VF-31 Siegfried and VF-31AX Kairos Plus.  The Siegfried was a customized VF-31A with its more powerful engines and fold wave system pushing its airframe past its structural limit to the point that it could damage itself with its post-upgrade performance as was often the case with Hayate's VF-31J.  The VF-31AX was a further hacked-together upgrade of the Siegfried that was so ill-equipped to handle its own performance that all five VF-31AX Kairos Plus units were beyond repair after only a single engagement and had to be scrapped (per Master File).  

With issues like that from upgrades, most emigrant governments can generally be counted upon to adopt new generations of fighter as the resources to do so become available and the need presents itself.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Based on what's said both in-story and in creator interviews... not all that differently from how it works in the real world.  

Shoji Kawamori has described the current state of affairs in the Macross setting as being like the age of sail, but with the internet.  Emigrant fleets and planets can be months or even years away from Earth by space fold, but advancements in fold communications technology and the ever-growing number of emigrant fleets and planets have turned what was once just point-to-point communications links into a massive decentralized FTL internet called the Galaxy Network.  Commerce involving the transmission of digital assets (e.g. software and cultural exports like music, movies, television shows, ebooks, etc.) can be done directly over the Galaxy Network, but when it comes to transactions involving physical goods the logistics of fold travel present serious obstacles.  

Improvements in fold technology have reduced the disparity between subjective and objective time during a fold jump over the years, but the incredible energy demands of fold navigation mean that there are still practical limits to how far you reasonably travel in a single fold.  Frontier and Delta suggest that by 2060 that practical limit on distance for a single fold jump is somewhere in the vicinity of 800-1,000 light years with adequate prep time.  We see the space equivalent of container ships for the first time in the Macross Delta TV series as they transport things like perishable foods over interstellar distances, and we know from Macross Frontier that major instellar shipping firms make colossal amounts of money shipping goods across massive interstellar distances but spend enough time doing so that they have to have their own private security forces to safeguard shipments.  When the cost of shipping goods in from elsewhere is too high - be it in time, money, or both - the option exists for emigrant governments or private companies to license whatever the product is from its original creator and manufacture it locally.

When it comes to Variable Fighters and other military hardware, what we see is a mixture of the approaches that've been taken on this topic in the real world:

• Export variants built in one locale and shipped to another for service, often stripped of proprietary systems that the developing government doesn't want the purchasing government to have.  The F-4 Phantom did a roaring trade in export variants in the 60's and 70's.  The Macross universe's main example is the VF-19P Zola Patrol model and presumably the VF-5000G and T-G versions also used by the Zola Patrol.
• Build-under-license variants where the purchasing government has the manufacturing capability but for whatever reason doesn't want to go to the trouble of designing its own aircraft.  The purchasing government buys a license to locally produce an existing design developed by another government.  Some aspects of the design might be omitted if they involve proprietary technologies subject to security restrictions.  Japan's Mitsubishi F-2 is a build-under-license version of the US's General Dynamics F-16.  The Macross universe's main examples here would be the VF-171 Nightmare Plus and the VF-19EF Caliburn.
• Use an existing concept design and previously developed technology in an original development.  The purchasing government doesn't want to do all the legwork on their own and want to sell the finished product in export themselves, so they use a mixture of original and "off the shelf" parts in an original design loosely based on a previously shared concept.  Japan's Mitsubishi F-X/F-3 is the real world example.  The Macross universe's examples would be the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31, with the VF-31 being a direct reference to the F-3.

It helps a bit in this regard that many of the major corporations involved have branch offices in different New UN Government member nations, in much the same way that various parts suppliers in the auto and aircraft industries have branch offices in different countries where they sell to local OEMs.  (For instance, how Japan's Sumitomo Electric Networks and Aisin, as well as Germany's ZF, have US branches in the Detroit area to serve the needs of the "Big 3".)

As far as intellectual property rights go, Shoji Kawamori has in the past compared the current shape of the New UN Government to the European Union.  Presumably this means that there are both national and central registries for things like copyrights and trademarks, and that those marks are respected and enforceable internationally under treaty and supranational law the way they are today.

Emigrant fleets are, by nature, mobile and this can pose problems for shipping to/from one... so there is a certain incentive to manufacture locally under license.

 

The New UN Government gives emigrant governments quite a lot of latitude in deciding how to arm their local defense forces.

Each emigrant fleet or planet's economic situation plays a big role in how they decide to go about arming their forces.  Developing a new fighter is extraordinarily expensive and it requires quite a lot of technical expertise.  Consequently, very few emigrant governments have the resources to do so.  Typically only the ones that have the backing of one of the megacorporations and a major defense contractor like Macross Frontier (Bilra Transport, Shinsei, and LAI), Macross Galaxy (its parent company General Galaxy), Uroboros (Bilra Transport again), and the Brisingr Alliance (twenty planetary governments and regional branches of four defense contractors including Shinsei and LAI).  Even then, that's a huge capital investment those governments can't make casually or on a regular basis so they're dependent on the expectation of selling those models in export sales to recoup costs and can't develop new models at will... so export model sales and buying licenses to build existing models locally are the norm.

The lifespan of a VF, like that of a normal fighter, is finite... and older generations of VF can only be upgraded so much to keep them viable.  As we've seen a few times, upgrading VFs to/past their design's limits can adversely impact their usability and cause them to damage or even destroy themselves.  Macross the Ride's VF-1X++ Hakuna Aoba Special was the first really blunt example of this, being a Special Forces VF-1X++ that its (retired) pilot had subsequently upgraded with engines and rocket boosters that far exceeded its aerodynamic design limits... turning it into an unreliable mess that frequently cost its pilot victory in races because it could barely be controlled at all.  Macross the Ride's VF-9E was another, which had engine issues that would cause the airframe to effectively self-destruct.  There's a more subdued example in Macross Frontier with the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX, a VF-171 upgraded with EX-Gear and detuned VF-19 engines that suffered handling issues as a result of the rest of the aircraft struggling to keep up with its more powerful engines.  Macross Delta offers us two separate examples... the VF-31 Siegfried and VF-31AX Kairos Plus.  The Siegfried was a customized VF-31A with its more powerful engines and fold wave system pushing its airframe past its structural limit to the point that it could damage itself with its post-upgrade performance as was often the case with Hayate's VF-31J.  The VF-31AX was a further hacked-together upgrade of the Siegfried that was so ill-equipped to handle its own performance that all five VF-31AX Kairos Plus units were beyond repair after only a single engagement and had to be scrapped (per Master File).  

With issues like that from upgrades, most emigrant governments can generally be counted upon to adopt new generations of fighter as the resources to do so become available and the need presents itself.

Well... when you need inertia convertors, ex-Gear and such to keep your pilots from turning into chunky salsa during their sorties, you may have an issue with planes being a bit too powerful.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Well... when you need inertia convertors, ex-Gear and such to keep your pilots from turning into chunky salsa during their sorties, you may have an issue with planes being a bit too powerful.

Maybe if they had been developed that way just for kicks... but they weren't.

Remember, the reason 5th Generation development kicked off when it did was because the New UN Government had made its first confirmed contact with the Vajra.  The 5th Gen performance targets were set as high as they were because the New UN Government's goal was a Variable Fighter that could fight the Vajra on an even footing.  Master File has a few remarks suggesting that previously unknown forces that wiped out New UN Spacy warships and fighter patrols were later believed to be run-ins with Vajra forces.

That excessive performance did also have quite a lot of benefits in use against the Zentradi, as described in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah.  It's hard to argue with a unit able to hold off an enemy force ten times their size with no losses and only minor damage while guarding a defenseless target in an hours-long rescue mission.

[darkranger12]

So VF's run on a slurry of cryo-frozen hydrogen.  What do the ships use as fuel? Same?

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, darkranger12 said:

So VF's run on a slurry of cryo-frozen hydrogen.  What do the ships use as fuel? Same?

Presumably so.  It's never been explicitly stated, but it's very likely that the same hydrogen fuel slush used in Valkyrie and Destroid compact thermonuclear reactors is also used in larger shipboard thermonuclear reactors.

Mind you, because those thermonuclear reactors use a Gravity and Inertia Control system to provide fuel compression and plasma confinement they can in principle use a variety of possible fuels.  Elemental hydrogen and isotopes of same are simply the most abundant.

[cheemingwan1234]

So, are there official walking/running speed stats for later model VFs? I can picture the later models outrunning a VF-1

Edited November 5, 2023 by cheemingwan1234

[pengbuzz]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Presumably so.  It's never been explicitly stated, but it's very likely that the same hydrogen fuel slush used in Valkyrie and Destroid compact thermonuclear reactors is also used in larger shipboard thermonuclear reactors.

Mind you, because those thermonuclear reactors use a Gravity and Inertia Control system to provide fuel compression and plasma confinement they can in principle use a variety of possible fuels.  Elemental hydrogen and isotopes of same are simply the most abundant.

So, could a Valkyrie conceivably extend its' operating time in space by using it's intakes inside a nebula to collect hydrogen gas? I know that Hydrogen wouldn't be the only gas in there most likely and that the Valks probably don' t have any way to differentiate the elements, but it was just a thought.