Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:37 AM, TG Remix said:

Thinking about it more, in isolation Guld's gene/psychological issues work well enough in Plus. But further down the line we get Mylene, Ranka, Micheal, and Reina who are all partial Zentradi but not nearly have the same uncontrollable issues that he had. At least in my perspective, it was presented in Plus that all human/Zentradi hybrids are more likely to have that same "little problem." It is something I noticed in Plus and 7 where despite SDF humans and micloned-Zentradi are indistinguishable they always try to make them different or incompatible, like the instinctual fear Exsedol and the Macross 5 had for the Protodevlin.

Macross's sequels have zigzagged the idea of whether the Zentradi stand out or not quite a bit...

The idea that part-Zentradi have issues managing the elevated physical aggression the ancient Protoculture designed their Zentradi ancestors with was a new idea brought in with the Macross Plus OVA and subsequently abandoned not long after it.  I guess Master File felt compelled to explain why this supposedly widespread problem that was regarded as an obstacle to the YF-21's adoption as next main fighter was never mentioned again... both in terms of it being a widespread but not universal issue and the introduction of a cure that permanently resolved the issue.

Zentradi in subsequent sequels always blend into the population perfectly until the story needs them to not.  I guess that's the benefit of them being an amazing technicolor population with a much greater range of normal body types than humans.  You can have most Zentradi look identical to humans and still have a bunch of them be green, ghastly pale, seven feet tall, and so on.  Like how Milia looks completely human except for her green hair (and that may be excusable by rule of anime), while the inhabitants of Macross 5 are mostly the ghastly pale type of Zentradi to make it obvious to the viewer Macross 5 is an all-Zentradi fleet.

 

 

Looking a little more into Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II... the events of the Macross Plus OVA's final episode are glossed over for in-universe reasons.  It's said that there was an official announcement shortly after the incident to the effect that "a super-AI system went berserk" but that most of the information about the incident remains under seal so all people can do is speculate and theorize.  Interestingly, the Master File actually takes the view that the BDI-equipped YF-21-2 was objectively superior in terms of specs due to the incomplete nature of the X-9 Ghostbird's AI and that it should have had an advantage despite having used up most of its ammunition fighting the YF-19-2.  The thing that made it an even fight was that the DECU6000/Sharon Apple had self-evolved to a "super AI" thanks to the illegal bio-neural chip installed by Marj.

From there, it returns to toeing the official line by indicating that the incident proved the dangers of AI technology and the continuing usefulness of manned fighter aircraft which prompted the New UN Forces to abandon the X-9 and quietly resume Project Super Nova as though it'd never been cancelled.  General Higgins's pro-AI faction apparently lost an enormous amount of influence and their rivals had a field day crowing about the insufficient anti-hacking measures in the X-9 program among other things like smugly indicating that you can't hack an organic pilot.  (Which the Macross Galaxy fleet apparently later took as a challenge.)  While hypnosis proved to be at least partially effective against Isamu and the YF-19-2, it's noted that the YF-21-2 proved to be completely impervious to Sharon's attempts to infiltrate its systems due to the BDI's radically different architecture.  The section talking about the decision to reinstate Project Super Nova mentions that while the military went with the more conventional design in the YF-19, they persuaded the New UN Gov't's assembly to approve limited requisitions for the YF-21 as well as a special forces fighter despite its higher production and operation cost.  

Development of the YF-21 restarted in November 2040 using the YF-21-3 that had been in storage on Earth.  The Brain Direct Interface (BDI) was scaled back to become the BCI (Brain Computer Interface) that operated as a support system for the manual controls.  The new system required a new airframe control AI designated ANGIRAS-BRAIN-2, which combined with the other refinements led to the military issuing YF-21-3 a new provisional designation as YF-22.  Two more units (YF-22-2 and YF-22-3) were produced and later tested at New Edwards in the first half of 2041 and approval for mass production was granted after space trials ended.  The first mass production VF-22 rolled off the line to the Earth NUNS in 2042.  Having switched from pursuing the next main fighter role to a special forces role apparently hurt GG quite a bit financially too, since that sharply reduced expected production volumes by order of magnitude... from "tens of thousands" to just a few hundred.  General Galaxy was apparently struggling at the time due to having taken many contracts for things like spacecraft and stardrive systems for the New UN Forces and civilian enterprises.  They got a bit of a shot in the arm when the UN Spacy Weapons Test Center proposed building the VF-22 in batches of 200 to "test the transition to a production design", allowing development of the VF-22 to continue using the budget that'd initially been earmarked for the X-9 Ghostbird.  

The concept Argus Selzer apparently developed from this was to customize the VF-22s to the needs ot the various local commands requesting them since no one location was expected to need more than about ten VF-22s including spares.  This proposal ultimately led to the New UN Gov't parliament approving the purchase of 100 VF-22s, and later expanded by another 200 aircraft, but it's said that the number of aircraft actually produced and delivered might not have been accurately reported due to losses in development accidents and production of replacements.

The last bit talks about the possibility that the VF-22's extremely high stealth performance was used for illegal operations... with the book's in-universe author presenting that as likely, but probably a necessary evil.

 

 

 

The new variants described in the book are an odd bunch.

The VF-22B is said to be a modified Block 5 VF-22 from 2045 that abolishes the vertical tail in order to reduce the burden on the energy-intensive active stealth system.  It's said to have also adopted a new stealth paint based on carbon nanotubes that reduced reflected light, making the VF-22B stealthier at close range by making it harder to detect via LIDAR and optical cameras in addition to its improved radar stealthiness.  It's said to pay for this via a reduction in maneuverability and top speed from the extra weight added to its wing surfaces.

The VF-22D is an extended fuselage based on the VF-22B that abolished the BCI and adding a second crewman in order to operate as a dedicated attack aircraft able to carry a whopping ten large anti-warship reaction weapons.  This unfortunately resulted in a significant loss of speed and maneuverability, so the end result was it was diverted to training use.

The YVF-22E is a VF-22D modified as a side-by-side cockpit attacker with two BCI systems.  It contained refinements to the system that prevented the operator's emotional state from interfering with the system's decision-making functions.

The YVF-22U is another odd bird... the YVF-22E was further modified to attempt to use it as a forward drone control ship where the copilot could control multiple Ghosts using the BCI.  It's said to have been able to control up to six Ghosts and 24 target drones, though the handling is noted to be VERY dependent on the individual operator.

The YVF-22VG is a fairly straightforward case of GG attempting to swap the extremely expensive flexible wing material for a traditional variable geometry wing.

The YVF-22SA is an attempt to address a defect in the VF-22S in which its laser cannons could accidentally damage the airframe itself in high-g maneuvers by introducing a set of movable dorsal laser cannons.

 

Next change I get, I'll have a look into the Structure and Systems section.

[TG Remix]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross's sequels have zigzagged the idea of whether the Zentradi stand out or not quite a bit...

The idea that part-Zentradi have issues managing the elevated physical aggression the ancient Protoculture designed their Zentradi ancestors with was a new idea brought in with the Macross Plus OVA and subsequently abandoned not long after it.  I guess Master File felt compelled to explain why this supposedly widespread problem that was regarded as an obstacle to the YF-21's adoption as next main fighter was never mentioned again... both in terms of it being a widespread but not universal issue and the introduction of a cure that permanently resolved the issue.

Zentradi in subsequent sequels always blend into the population perfectly until the story needs them to not.  I guess that's the benefit of them being an amazing technicolor population with a much greater range of normal body types than humans.  You can have most Zentradi look identical to humans and still have a bunch of them be green, ghastly pale, seven feet tall, and so on.  Like how Milia looks completely human except for her green hair (and that may be excusable by rule of anime), while the inhabitants of Macross 5 are mostly the ghastly pale type of Zentradi to make it obvious to the viewer Macross 5 is an all-Zentradi fleet.

Frontier apparently took that to heart the most, as we not only see every type of Zentradi from previous series (miclone and giant, human looking, technicolored, and DYRL bald and/or lumpy), but also did their own things with Zentradi like Ranka's moveable hair (Which is outlandishly hilarious to me), and iirc some with flat out orc tusks! Always loved the variety the series gave, and it's personally one of my favorite things about the series as much as it's nowhere as much in the limelight.

 

According to Macross Outside Story, when the Protoculture made the Zentradi, they even modified the placement and number of internal organs! Which I'm not sure if that carries to when they're micloned, it's sorta vague even when it describes the miclone bodies is the same as a earth-persons. What kinda gets me the most is that in Zettai LIVE!!! We're introduced to Iam Cronwell, who's a quarter-Zentradi like Ranka, but is an astonishing  330 cm (10'8 feet) tall! That seems way too tall for a human but miniscule for a Zentradi. Ignoring what the 7th NUNS Fleet really was (One of the first new NUNS fleets from either 2010 or 2051?) and and what the Battle Astraea even is (Apparently a old New Macross ship with Battle 21 remains retrofitted), that's pretty much the most elusive part about Cromwell to be honest! 😆

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Interestingly, the Master File actually takes the view that the BDI-equipped YF-21-2 was objectively superior in terms of specs due to the incomplete nature of the X-9 Ghostbird's AI and that it should have had an advantage despite having used up most of its ammunition fighting the YF-19-2.  The thing that made it an even fight was that the DECU6000/Sharon Apple had self-evolved to a "super AI" thanks to the illegal bio-neural chip installed by Marj.

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

While hypnosis proved to be at least partially effective against Isamu and the YF-19-2, it's noted that the YF-21-2 proved to be completely impervious to Sharon's attempts to infiltrate its systems due to the BDI's radically different architecture. 

I like how the MF presents how the YF-21 was General Galaxy's absolute magnum opus that was probably way too good for wide deployment across the NUNS. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise that they lost the Super Nova Project considering we'd have a repeat of the VF-19 issue about being uncontrollable and killing pilots but somehow significantly worse, and how amazing it is as the VF-22. 

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The concept Argus Selzer apparently developed from this was to customize the VF-22s to the needs ot the various local commands requesting them since no one location was expected to need more than about ten VF-22s including spares.  This proposal ultimately led to the New UN Gov't parliament approving the purchase of 100 VF-22s, and later expanded by another 200 aircraft, but it's said that the number of aircraft actually produced and delivered might not have been accurately reported due to losses in development accidents and production of replacements.

Considering how there was 718 total units built of the VF-17, the small amount of VF-22s built makes a lot of sense, especially considering not only how even without the BDI it's insanely high performing, and how convoluted and messy 4th generation Valkyrie development was in general. It even outlasted the VF-19 if we take Delta into consideration. It also seems to track with what we see as at most the Macross 7 seems like they only had three VF-22S, and those were more or less independently operated and not as a special forces fleet like the Diamond and Emerald forces.

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The new variants described in the book are an odd bunch.

I'm not sure if this if its from somewhere else or from the MF, but there was apparently a attacker/bomber version of the VF-22 as well? The VF/B-22A I think, but I'm not sure if its official or not.

Edited September 11, 2023 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

According to Macross Outside Story, when the Protoculture made the Zentradi, they even modified the placement and number of internal organs! Which I'm not sure if that carries to when they're micloned, it's sorta vague even when it describes the miclone bodies is the same as a earth-persons.

Later explanations, esp. WRT the DYRL? versions, suggset that Zentradi are anatomically and biochemically different as giants vs. as miclones.

IIRC, that was basically what the explanation of Exsedol's changing appearance hinged on.  That his TV appearance was what he looked like as a miclone, with his role-specific enhancements disabled/removed, and that his movie appearance was what he looked like "on the job" as a giant.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

What kinda gets me the most is that in Zettai LIVE!!! We're introduced to Iam Cronwell, who's a quarter-Zentradi like Ranka, but is an astonishing  330 cm (10'8 feet) tall! That seems way too tall for a human but miniscule for a Zentradi.

Considering rule of thumb is that Zentradi are generally 1/5th their giant height as miclones, Cromwell's grandpappy must've been a senior commander-class Zentradi like main fleet commander Boddole Zer.  He'd be 16.5m tall as a giant, around the same height as Boddole Zer who towered over the 13m+ commanders.  

(Either that or he's More Machine Than Man and entirely too preoccupied with size.)

The average Zentradi is said to be approximately 2m tall as a miclone... on the tall side but not unreasonably so for a human (says the nearly 2m tall guy writing this)... but they're also big believers in Large and In Charge with their leaders being substantially larger.  Vrlitwhai's 1354cm tall as a giant, meaning he'd be 271cm tall as a miclone (a whopping 8ft 10 inches) if his height isn't an enhancement that can be removed in micloning.  One can only assume the Zentradi have done amazing things for the sport of basketball.  

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Ignoring what the 7th NUNS Fleet really was (One of the first new NUNS fleets from either 2010 or 2051?) and and what the Battle Astraea even is (Apparently a old New Macross ship with Battle 21 remains retrofitted), that's pretty much the most elusive part about Cromwell to be honest! 😆

The New UN Spacy 7th Fleet is one of the fleets from the central New UN Spacy, according to what little commentary there is on it.

Cromwell's Battle Astraea was its flagship, which he and his crew stole when they deserted and disguised its disappearance as a fold navigation accident.  I don't think there's been any statement connecting it to the Battle Galaxy, which was destroyed utterly in the movie version of Frontier.  It just seems to be a modified reuse of Battle Galaxy's CG model, with the hull number presumably being a coincidence.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I like how the MF presents how the YF-21 was General Galaxy's absolute magnum opus that was probably way too good for wide deployment across the NUNS. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise that they lost the Super Nova Project considering we'd have a repeat of the VF-19 issue about being uncontrollable and killing pilots but somehow significantly worse, and how amazing it is as the VF-22.

Master File also presents the YF-21-2's BDI control architecture as so radical and so unprecedented that even General Galaxy was hesitant to actually authorize mass production of it because of how finicky and immature the technology was.  For what it's worth, Master File does indicate that the VF-22 had similar problems to the VF-19 but on a smaller scale since there were fewer of them and the pilots being recommended to fly them were already the military's elite.  So while the VF-19 was making the Earth NUNS's rank-and-file very nervous with its peaky, unstable performance the VF-22 was struggling with compatibility issues in terms of pilots who could get the best out of the BCI system.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Considering how there was 718 total units built of the VF-17, the small amount of VF-22s built makes a lot of sense, especially considering not only how even without the BDI it's insanely high performing, and how convoluted and messy 4th generation Valkyrie development was in general. It even outlasted the VF-19 if we take Delta into consideration. It also seems to track with what we see as at most the Macross 7 seems like they only had three VF-22S, and those were more or less independently operated and not as a special forces fleet like the Diamond and Emerald forces.

Ironically, Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II was written several years before Delta came out... but by an amusing coincidence lists the final year of the VF-22's use by the New UN Forces as early 2061, not long after Wright Immelmann's ill-fated flight that resulted in the destruction of the city of Carlyle by (illegal) dimensional weapon.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'm not sure if this if its from somewhere else or from the MF, but there was apparently a attacker/bomber version of the VF-22 as well? The VF/B-22A I think, but I'm not sure if its official or not.

The one you're thinking of is a fan design from a 2003 issue of Model Graphix magazine as a part of its recurring feature series "Advanced Valkyrie in Action".

It was inspired by the proposed, but never built, Lockheed Martin FB-22 light bomber variant of the F/A-22.

There are only three or four official versions of the VF-22:

• VF-22 initial type (impl. VF-22A) 
• VF-22S - the type seen in Macross 7 and Macross Dynamite 7
• VF-22HG - experimental Galaxy fleet version with improved specs for cyborg use
• VF-22 Manfred custom - VF-22S w/ Di Zauberflote & ISC
• VF-22 Todo custom - based on VF-22HG or separate cyborg custom of VF-22S

[Seto Kaiba]

Master File's Structure and Systems area for the VF-22 goes with an interesting take... asserting that, since the book was written shortly after materials regarding the VF-22 began to be declassified, that there are still many unclear areas regarding its systems and performance.

With the last operational VF-22 unit - SVC-665 - officially retiring its VF-22s in March 2061, the VF-22 seems to have had an unusually short service life in Master File's view.  They were only active for around 19 years due to their high operating costs and high difficulty of maintenance and operation.  They do acknowledge that some private companies may continue operating them, in a possible nod to the Macross Frontier novelization where the Macross Frontier fleet's SMS branch had three VF-22S's.

There's an interesting note in the introduction that claims the YF-21/VF-22 started out as a Queadluun-Rau for miclones and changed partway into development into a new model VF for Project Super Nova.  It's noted that the aircraft ended up becoming larger than originally planned in order to accommodate the New UN Forces stealth requirements so that all necessary arms and tanks could be stored internally.  There's also an explicit reference to the VF-22's brainwave control system being an obstacle to widespread adoption to a degree that it was considered a "pilot selection system" because not everyone was compatible with it and training to operate the system takes a lot of time and a statement that the actual performance of the aircraft varied greatly depending on the pilot's overall level of compatibility with the system and thus its versatility was VERY low.

The section on the nose has an unusual statement about the VF-22's radar and its interaction with the energy conversion armor.  Apparently the VF-22's synthetic aperture radar extends outside the aircraft's nose and into the sides of the fuselage, dorsal frame, and beavertail as an extremely large synthetic aperture radar.  In practice, it sounds similar to what General Galaxy's SV Works would later develop in the Sv-303's Mirage Package system.  Though in this case, it's said that the synthetic aperture radar stops working if the energy conversion armor is energized due to electromagnetic interference.  General Galaxy asserts (via the author) that this is a non-issue since during close-range combat the primary detection system switches to the optical cameras and LADAR system.  There's also an interesting (and prophetic, considering this book was written in 2014) statement that the YF-21 concept was originally aiming for a completely opaque armored canopy relying entirely on the projecting data direct to the pilot's brain with only a single monitor within the cockpit as an emergency backup.  The test pilots objected to this plan, and further difficulties with the original BDI system led to the introduction of more transparent canopy sections and internal monitors to ensure the pilot had an adequate fallback field-of-view.  Even more interesting, these transparent canopy sections are not covered in battroid mode.  The armor shutters protecting the pilot are on the inside of the canopy, not the outside.

[Shawn]

I dug up my Master File YF-21 yesterday and did not see a lot on the Battroid mode or transformation
Is that tucked into another volume?
Thanks!

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, Shawn said:

I dug up my Master File YF-21 yesterday and did not see a lot on the Battroid mode or transformation
Is that tucked into another volume?
Thanks!

Just the one so far... the only Valkyries to get multiple volumes thus far have been the VF-1 (five volumes) and the VF-31 (two volumes).

[Seto Kaiba]

I have to admit, the more I read of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II, the more I'm convinced I've done the book a disservice by describing it as one of the less-good installments of the series.  It's got quite a bit of good material, it's just the original variants are largely stupid.

The section on the VF-22's cockpit makes it sound like the YF-21 prototype would've been an absolutely miserable aircraft to operate.  It describes the original BCS control system as having such tight tolerances that the pilot was basically not allowed to move at all.  We're talking way beyond normal levels of restraints, to the point of immobilizing the pilot's entire body via a Houdini-like system of restraint straps and clamps in normal operation.  All of that was in service of keeping the EEG sensor hood from shifting, since moving as little as 10mm from its ideal position would cause the system to lose 40% or more of its accuracy and send the aircraft to emergency recovery mode.  The connected Brain Direct Image system required measures nearly as severe, basically requiring the pilot to fly with their eyes closed and wearing sound-damping headphones.  The description of the Sync Pod chair that grips the pilot's entire body instead of using conventional restraints sounds uncomfortable as hell too.

There's also a mention that the pilot suit also includes a version of the metabolic booster system that's the only mentioned feature of the VF-15, which uses lasers, electromagnetic fields, etc. to stimulate the body's metabolic stress responses as an anti-g measure.  It's said that it can provide the wearer with the endurance to temporarily handle g-force load of +20 for nearly three minutes.  The same system is also used for life support, slowing the pilot's life processes down in the event of an emergency escape of the aircraft to allow the pilot to survive up to 70 days in space.

[Knight26]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I have to admit, the more I read of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II, the more I'm convinced I've done the book a disservice by describing it as one of the less-good installments of the series.  It's got quite a bit of good material, it's just the original variants are largely stupid.

The section on the VF-22's cockpit makes it sound like the YF-21 prototype would've been an absolutely miserable aircraft to operate.  It describes the original BCS control system as having such tight tolerances that the pilot was basically not allowed to move at all.  We're talking way beyond normal levels of restraints, to the point of immobilizing the pilot's entire body via a Houdini-like system of restraint straps and clamps in normal operation.  All of that was in service of keeping the EEG sensor hood from shifting, since moving as little as 10mm from its ideal position would cause the system to lose 40% or more of its accuracy and send the aircraft to emergency recovery mode.  The connected Brain Direct Image system required measures nearly as severe, basically requiring the pilot to fly with their eyes closed and wearing sound-damping headphones.  The description of the Sync Pod chair that grips the pilot's entire body instead of using conventional restraints sounds uncomfortable as hell too.

There's also a mention that the pilot suit also includes a version of the metabolic booster system that's the only mentioned feature of the VF-15, which uses lasers, electromagnetic fields, etc. to stimulate the body's metabolic stress responses as an anti-g measure.  It's said that it can provide the wearer with the endurance to temporarily handle g-force load of +20 for nearly three minutes.  The same system is also used for life support, slowing the pilot's life processes down in the event of an emergency escape of the aircraft to allow the pilot to survive up to 70 days in space.

What's interesting about that is the measures they went to to not use an implanted Brain Direct Interface.  It points to the UNS prohibition, or just inhibition towards, cybernetics coming sooner than has been previously mentioned.  A direct implanted interface might have solved many of those issues.  Heck, I always assumed that Guld's earrings were somehow a part of the BDI interface.  Otherwise, he did not seem like the type to get piercings.  But the prohibition against moving also explains his posture when flying.  He basically would get into a meditation pose/state and fought to keep in it at all times, especially under high-G load.  That could also explain why he couldn't regain control of the YF-21 after his emotional outburst towards Isamu, his calm was disturbed and he'd shifted around too much, reaching for the manual controls just exacerbated the problem.  Once Isamu had the YF-21 stabilized he was able to regain control, though his random impulsive thoughts did nearly kill Isamu just the same.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I have to admit, the more I read of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II, the more I'm convinced I've done the book a disservice by describing it as one of the less-good installments of the series.  It's got quite a bit of good material, it's just the original variants are largely stupid.

The section on the VF-22's cockpit makes it sound like the YF-21 prototype would've been an absolutely miserable aircraft to operate.  It describes the original BCS control system as having such tight tolerances that the pilot was basically not allowed to move at all.  We're talking way beyond normal levels of restraints, to the point of immobilizing the pilot's entire body via a Houdini-like system of restraint straps and clamps in normal operation.  All of that was in service of keeping the EEG sensor hood from shifting, since moving as little as 10mm from its ideal position would cause the system to lose 40% or more of its accuracy and send the aircraft to emergency recovery mode.  The connected Brain Direct Image system required measures nearly as severe, basically requiring the pilot to fly with their eyes closed and wearing sound-damping headphones.  The description of the Sync Pod chair that grips the pilot's entire body instead of using conventional restraints sounds uncomfortable as hell too.

There's also a mention that the pilot suit also includes a version of the metabolic booster system that's the only mentioned feature of the VF-15, which uses lasers, electromagnetic fields, etc. to stimulate the body's metabolic stress responses as an anti-g measure.  It's said that it can provide the wearer with the endurance to temporarily handle g-force load of +20 for nearly three minutes.  The same system is also used for life support, slowing the pilot's life processes down in the event of an emergency escape of the aircraft to allow the pilot to survive up to 70 days in space.

Those restraints must've royally sucked if they needed to revert to manual controls for any reason. It also sounds like the craft was so twitchy  that anything that disturbed the pilot's trance like state or rocked the delicate tolerances of the craft would essentially cripple it.

Talk about a "glass cannon"!

On a couple of unrelated side notes:

1) I wonder if a craft could directly draw upon heavy quanta to power itself without the need for its' own power source and fuel for thrust (such as nuclear fusion)?

2) Could said craft also dump its' waste heat into Fold Space to avoid detection?

3) Could Basara dump his ego into fold space?

Edited September 16, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Those restraints must've royally sucked if they needed to revert to manual controls for any reason. It also sounds like the craft was so twitchy  that anything that disturbed the pilot's trance like state or rocked the delicate tolerances of the craft would essentially cripple it.

Talk about a "glass cannon"!

On a couple of unrelated side notes:

1) I wonder if a craft could directly draw upon heavy quanta to power itself without the need for its' own power source and fuel for thrust (such as nuclear fusion)?

2) Could said craft also dump its' waste heat into Fold Space to avoid detection?

3) Could Basara dump his ego into fold space?

1. The first is essentially how the fold wave system works except in the YF-29 it's a secondary system due to limitations on the super rare fold quartz. But Protoculture stuff effectively did this as a common method I think. The Fold Evils the Protodevlin possessed certainly did this, in a biomechanical sense.

2. Not so sure on waste heat. I kinda don't want fold space to be used as a free get out of physics card like most sci-fi does with their extra dimensional realms. That's why I like the ISC, it does do this at first but it needs to bring the forces back into normal space eventually, it can just spread it out over time.

3. No super dimension space can withstand ego of that magnitude! 

[pengbuzz]

27 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

1. The first is essentially how the fold wave system works except in the YF-29 it's a secondary system due to limitations on the super rare fold quartz. But Protoculture stuff effectively did this as a common method I think. The Fold Evils the Protodevlin possessed certainly did this, in a biomechanical sense.

2. Not so sure on waste heat. I kinda don't want fold space to be used as a free get out of physics card like most sci-fi does with their extra dimensional realms. That's why I like the ISC, it does do this at first but it needs to bring the forces back into normal space eventually, it can just spread it out over time.

3. No super dimension space can withstand ego of that magnitude! 

Well, admittedly with #2, trying to find a way for stealth to actually work without being pointless due to waste heat. Not familiar though with the ISC, I'll have to look that up.

Thanks for the info, and yeah: guess Basara's ego is really too powerful! lol

[Seto Kaiba]

15 hours ago, Knight26 said:

What's interesting about that is the measures they went to to not use an implanted Brain Direct Interface.  It points to the UNS prohibition, or just inhibition towards, cybernetics coming sooner than has been previously mentioned.  A direct implanted interface might have solved many of those issues.  Heck, I always assumed that Guld's earrings were somehow a part of the BDI interface.  Otherwise, he did not seem like the type to get piercings.  But the prohibition against moving also explains his posture when flying.  He basically would get into a meditation pose/state and fought to keep in it at all times, especially under high-G load.  That could also explain why he couldn't regain control of the YF-21 after his emotional outburst towards Isamu, his calm was disturbed and he'd shifted around too much, reaching for the manual controls just exacerbated the problem.  Once Isamu had the YF-21 stabilized he was able to regain control, though his random impulsive thoughts did nearly kill Isamu just the same.

So, there may be an explanation for that as well... admittedly in one of the sections I've only skimmed so far.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II makes several references to the YF-21/VF-22's origins as an outgrowth/rethinking of General Galaxy and the New UN Forces plan to restore the Queadluun-Rau's factory satellite and produce an improved version of the battle suit.  While this much is also in the official setting, Master File adds a new aspect of the plan by suggesting that (in its version) the YF-21 grew out of plans for a Variable Glaug-esque miclone version of the improved Queadluun Rau.  They make a couple mentions of the (movie) Queadluun-Rau's cybernetic control interface, which they describe as an unreproducable "black box" system at the time (the mid-to-late 2030s).  I'll have to dig into that section properly to verify, but the implication thus far seems to be that the Brainwave Control System of the YF-21 is an attempt to reproduce that black box system from the Queadluun-Rau or at least duplicate its functionality using Human technology.

 

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Those restraints must've royally sucked if they needed to revert to manual controls for any reason. It also sounds like the craft was so twitchy  that anything that disturbed the pilot's trance like state or rocked the delicate tolerances of the craft would essentially cripple it.

Well, it was a prototype... those aren't generally known for being entirely stable or reliable.

The intention was that the manual controls were there purely for emergency use, should something go awry with the Brainwave Control System.  There's mention that the restraints locking the arms and legs in place automatically release if the BCS connection deteriorates to a certain level to allow the pilot to switch to the manual controls easily.  However, it's definitely a testament to Guld Goa Bowman's physical and mental discipline that the first testing accident connected to the YF-21's BCS was the one in Macross Plus where Guld's YF-21 experienced a (recoverable) loss of control after almost colliding with Isamu's VF-11B.

It's noted that they did address the alignment issues when they switched to a laser-based brainwave monitoring system for the reduced-capability Brain Computer Interface on the production VF-22.  (Of course, that was also after the brainwave system was made a support system for the regular controls, so it was a lot more fault-tolerant anyway.)

 

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

1) I wonder if a craft could directly draw upon heavy quanta to power itself without the need for its' own power source and fuel for thrust (such as nuclear fusion)?

Nope... that's Fold Dimensional Energy Conversion.  It's a technology the Protoculture probably developed by studying the Vajra and requires extremely high purity fold quartz to pull off.  Some of the Protoculture's most advanced constructs had that ability - like the Birdhuman, the Fold Evil on Uroboros, and the Protodeviln's Evil-series bodies - but that's something that was beyond Human technology until the development of the Fold Wave System for the YF-29 Durandal in the late 2050s.  We've previously touched on how even building a fold wave system is nearly impossible because the quantity and purity of fold quartz needed to make it work at an acceptable level are prohibitively high.  The YF-21's about twenty years and two generations* before that technology became available.

* The YF-29's Fold Wave System was such a massive game-changer that Master File reclassified the YF-29 as a 6th Generation VF prototype.  Macross Delta's Blu-ray extra features appear to imply the same happened in the official Macross setting, with the VF-31 Siegfried being classified as a Gen 5.5 VF apparently because of its adoption of the Fold Wave System.

 

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

2) Could said craft also dump its' waste heat into Fold Space to avoid detection?

Nope.  Not aware of any VF that can do that.

I haven't gotten far enough into the VF-22 book to see if it says anything about that, but in other Master File books the subject of waste heat management in space does come up (esp. the VF-25 book).  The approach they describe involves the VFs using their cryogenic fuel slush as a system coolant, cycling that coolant back into the vacuum-sealed tanks where it's both less detectable and eventually dealt with when the fuel is used in the compact thermonuclear reactor or the verniers.  Outside of combat, it's mentioned that they don't bother with heat sequestration and use the surface of the wings as a radiator for cooling the VF... assuming it's not equipped with FAST Packs that have their own heat sink systems like the VF-25's Armored Pack.

 

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

3) Could Basara dump his ego into fold space?

12 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks for the info, and yeah: guess Basara's ego is really too powerful! lol

I'm not sure it's even his ego... his hyperfixation on music makes me think he's just high functioning autistic and has trouble with social cues.

[Seto Kaiba]

22 hours ago, Knight26 said:

What's interesting about that is the measures they went to to not use an implanted Brain Direct Interface.  It points to the UNS prohibition, or just inhibition towards, cybernetics coming sooner than has been previously mentioned.  A direct implanted interface might have solved many of those issues.

So, further to this... yeah, the next section of the book does mention (in passing) the (movie) Queadluun-Rau's (cybernetic) brainwave control system and video-brain feedback setup that General Galaxy's engineers were unable to analyze or reproduce at the time.  It seems that they just straight-up used the system from the Queadluun-Rau for video-brain feedback setupi, since they were categorically unable to reproduce it satisafactorily themselves.  The YF-21's BDI is subsequently explained as an attempt to speed up a Valkyrie's response time by making that VF an extension of the pilot's body directly controlled by the brain instead of routing control information through an airframe control AI.  (Which explains why Col. Johnson said that the issue analysis on the YF-21 was problematic because half of the unit's computer was Guld's brain... it's not a figure of speech, it's literally true.)

Apparently switching to the more reliable but less invasive Brain Computer Interface led to more than a 20% loss of performance in terms of system reaction time though it's said that it's considered easier to use by the pilots.

(Which is perhaps understandable, given that the next section makes the BCS-based control setup sound twitchy as hell with an end-to-end reaction time of under 10 milliseconds and 200 hours of training required just to prepare the pilot and collect the data necessary to set up the brainwave control system for them to use!)

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, it was a prototype... those aren't generally known for being entirely stable or reliable.

The intention was that the manual controls were there purely for emergency use, should something go awry with the Brainwave Control System.  There's mention that the restraints locking the arms and legs in place automatically release if the BCS connection deteriorates to a certain level to allow the pilot to switch to the manual controls easily.  However, it's definitely a testament to Guld Goa Bowman's physical and mental discipline that the first testing accident connected to the YF-21's BCS was the one in Macross Plus where Guld's YF-21 experienced a (recoverable) loss of control after almost colliding with Isamu's VF-11B.

It's noted that they did address the alignment issues when they switched to a laser-based brainwave monitoring system for the reduced-capability Brain Computer Interface on the production VF-22.  (Of course, that was also after the brainwave system was made a support system for the regular controls, so it was a lot more fault-tolerant anyway.)

Ah; I wasn't aware of that. And reducing the Brain systems to support rather than primary makes a lot of sense.

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope... that's Fold Dimensional Energy Conversion.  It's a technology the Protoculture probably developed by studying the Vajra and requires extremely high purity fold quartz to pull off.  Some of the Protoculture's most advanced constructs had that ability - like the Birdhuman, the Fold Evil on Uroboros, and the Protodeviln's Evil-series bodies - but that's something that was beyond Human technology until the development of the Fold Wave System for the YF-29 Durandal in the late 2050s.  We've previously touched on how even building a fold wave system is nearly impossible because the quantity and purity of fold quartz needed to make it work at an acceptable level are prohibitively high.  The YF-21's about twenty years and two generations* before that technology became available.

* The YF-29's Fold Wave System was such a massive game-changer that Master File reclassified the YF-29 as a 6th Generation VF prototype.  Macross Delta's Blu-ray extra features appear to imply the same happened in the official Macross setting, with the VF-31 Siegfried being classified as a Gen 5.5 VF apparently because of its adoption of the Fold Wave System.

Yeah; I was asking more of a general question unrelated to the YF-21, but I definitely appreciate the info! I ask because on a certain project I'm constantly working on, I'm constantly refining it and have several issues that need answers.

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope.  Not aware of any VF that can do that.

I haven't gotten far enough into the VF-22 book to see if it says anything about that, but in other Master File books the subject of waste heat management in space does come up (esp. the VF-25 book).  The approach they describe involves the VFs using their cryogenic fuel slush as a system coolant, cycling that coolant back into the vacuum-sealed tanks where it's both less detectable and eventually dealt with when the fuel is used in the compact thermonuclear reactor or the verniers.  Outside of combat, it's mentioned that they don't bother with heat sequestration and use the surface of the wings as a radiator for cooling the VF... assuming it's not equipped with FAST Packs that have their own heat sink systems like the VF-25's Armored Pack.

Understood; I wonder then about the VF-17 Nightmare? I also wonder if "active stealth" has the capability to scatter or in some other way mitigate IR signatures/ emissions?

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not sure it's even his ego... his hyperfixation on music makes me think he's just high functioning autistic and has trouble with social cues.

Point taken; autism would explain a lot.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Understood; I wonder then about the VF-17 Nightmare? I also wonder if "active stealth" has the capability to scatter or in some other way mitigate IR signatures/ emissions?

Macross's active stealth technology is an anti-radar countermeasure only.  It works basically the same as noise-cancelling headphones do.  It leverages wave superposition principles to make the aircraft invisible to enemy radar through destructive interference.  Basically, it analyzes the incoming radar wave, calculates how it's going to reflect off the airframe and back towards the enemy aircraft, then sends a precisely timed radar beam back to the enemy aircraft that has the same frequency and amplitude as the reflected radar beam but is 180 degrees out of phase with it.  The enemy radar receives both its reflected radar wave and the active stealth system's antiphase radar wave at the same time and because those two radar waves have the same frequency and amplitude but opposite phases the two waves cancel each other's amplitude out and the total amplitude of the radar waves that the enemy radar receives is zero... making it look like there's nobody out there.  Even if it's not perfectly aligned, it can still greatly reduce the amplitude of the radar return to the point of potentially being dismissed as noise on the signal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference?wprov=sfla1

Infrared emission mitigations would be binned under passive stealth, since the focus is on suppressing the aircraft's own emissions rather than evading detection by countering the emissions of enemy aircraft.

VFs have a bunch of different passive stealth measures.  The heat sequestration I described previously is one that's used to reduce the aircraft's infrared profile.  Others include the use of radar-absorbent materials to absorb radar waves so less energy is reflected and the use of airframe shaping and internally stored weapons to minimize the amount of radar waves that can bounce back to an enemy radar or even deflect them off in a different direction.  The VF-25 Master File mentions the addition of passive stealth coatings meant to defeat fold wave radar by absorbing part or all of an incoming fold wave radar pulse to prevent it from being reflected.  The VF-22 Master File also makes mention of materials the VF-22 used in conjunction with its ability to freely change the shape of certain portions of its airframe in order to reduce light reflections and thus make it harder to detect using a LADAR system or optical camera.

[pengbuzz]

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross's active stealth technology is an anti-radar countermeasure only.  It works basically the same as noise-cancelling headphones do.  It leverages wave superposition principles to make the aircraft invisible to enemy radar through destructive interference.  Basically, it analyzes the incoming radar wave, calculates how it's going to reflect off the airframe and back towards the enemy aircraft, then sends a precisely timed radar beam back to the enemy aircraft that has the same frequency and amplitude as the reflected radar beam but is 180 degrees out of phase with it.  The enemy radar receives both its reflected radar wave and the active stealth system's antiphase radar wave at the same time and because those two radar waves have the same frequency and amplitude but opposite phases the two waves cancel each other's amplitude out and the total amplitude of the radar waves that the enemy radar receives is zero... making it look like there's nobody out there.  Even if it's not perfectly aligned, it can still greatly reduce the amplitude of the radar return to the point of potentially being dismissed as noise on the signal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference?wprov=sfla1

Infrared emission mitigations would be binned under passive stealth, since the focus is on suppressing the aircraft's own emissions rather than evading detection by countering the emissions of enemy aircraft.

VFs have a bunch of different passive stealth measures.  The heat sequestration I described previously is one that's used to reduce the aircraft's infrared profile.  Others include the use of radar-absorbent materials to absorb radar waves so less energy is reflected and the use of airframe shaping and internally stored weapons to minimize the amount of radar waves that can bounce back to an enemy radar or even deflect them off in a different direction.  The VF-25 Master File mentions the addition of passive stealth coatings meant to defeat fold wave radar by absorbing part or all of an incoming fold wave radar pulse to prevent it from being reflected.  The VF-22 Master File also makes mention of materials the VF-22 used in conjunction with its ability to freely change the shape of certain portions of its airframe in order to reduce light reflections and thus make it harder to detect using a LADAR system or optical camera.

Okay; I had thought Infrared came under "active" for some odd reason (was under the impression "active stealth" was more broad=based than it is). I was also thinking that since Infrared exists as part of the spectrum (I know infrared and heat energy are related but not the same), that perhaps it could be bent or diffracted.

*alternately, just stick yer plane in the fridge, pengbuzz*

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay; I had thought Infrared came under "active" for some odd reason (was under the impression "active stealth" was more broad=based than it is).

Not an entirely unreasonable thought, since most sci-fi takes a more futuristic/less realistic approach to stealth.

When most of us think "active stealth" we're thinking something like the thermoptic camo of Ghost in the Shell or the Predator movies if not something even more impressive like the eponymous "cloaking device" from Star Trek and so many other sci-fi titles that renders ships invisible to all forms of detection (and occasionally intangible in the bargain) through a variety of exotic means like gravitational lensing, dimension shifting, etc.

 

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I was also thinking that since Infrared exists as part of the spectrum (I know infrared and heat energy are related but not the same), that perhaps it could be bent or diffracted.

*alternately, just stick yer plane in the fridge, pengbuzz*

Infrared can, to an extent, be manipulated the same way as the visible spectrum... but bending light waves out of the way of a fighter would require some pretty intense applications of gravitational force, which would probably run counter to the idea of remaining stealthy since ships are routinely scanning for dimensional faults and gravitational anomalies both because they can be damaging and because they can be precursors to a ship arriving by space fold, so it wouldn't be particularly useful for stealth purposes.

[JB0]

And while destructive interference applies to infrared as well as any other wavelength, it is usually emitted by the plane, which makes it harder to detect, analyze, and counteract. Also, the location of the sensor is unknown, so it can't be targetted.

[Seto Kaiba]

50 minutes ago, JB0 said:

And while destructive interference applies to infrared as well as any other wavelength, it is usually emitted by the plane, which makes it harder to detect, analyze, and counteract. Also, the location of the sensor is unknown, so it can't be targetted.

Yeah, that's kind of the kicker... the difference between a passive sensor system and an active one.

Active sensors like RADAR, LIDAR, LADAR, and fictional equivalents like fold wave RADAR work by shooting a beam of radiation into the surrounding area in the expectation that it'll bounce off of nearby objects and then looking for the reflected energy.  They can examine the amount of reflected energy and the amount of time it takes for the energy to return to the receiver to estimate size and distance, and by tracking the object between sweeps of the radiation beam they can determine directionality and velocity.  These systems can be defeated in a few different ways:

• Jamming: Essentially, barraging the receiver looking for reflected energy with energy of the same type and frequency so that the system and its operators can't differentiate reflected energy from maliciously transmitted energy.  This blinds the sensor, but it also lets everyone know they're there just not specifically where you are.  It's also rather unsafe to do if the enemy has anti-radiation missiles with track-on-jam capability, which will simply pursue the largest local source of radiation in the relevant spectrum and destroy it.
   
• Destructive interference:  As described above, broadcasting a targeted antiphase wave to cancel out the reflected energy's amplitude.  Still the realm of fiction as far as we know.
   
• Passive absorption and deflection:  What modern stealth aircraft use.  The airframe is shaped in such a way that it minimizes the amount of the radiation beam's energy that's reflected back towards the sender, and also coated in a material that absorbs that particular type of radiation and converts it into another form.  Radar absorbant material (RAM) is a paint that is a suspension of fine metallic particles that absorb radar waves and convert them into heat.  Another approach to deflection is chaff, an explosive-driven cloud of reflective fragments that interfere with the path of the radiation beam and may temporarily obscure objects on the other side of the chaff.
   
• Anti-radiation munitions:  Blow it up using missiles that home in on radiation sources.  Also lets the enemy know you're there, and very hard to pull off if the enemy has anti-aircraft defenses.
   

Passive sensors, like optical cameras, infrared cameras, gravity wave detectors, and fictional equivalents don't send out any kind of radiation.  They're just waiting to soak up any radiation they encounter in the target spectrum.  Their ranges are generally more limited because the range of the sensor is generally directly related to its physical size and the sensitivity may be tied to size and other conditions like how cool the sensor can be kept (as on some high-end infrared setups).  There are really only two ways around them:

• Emission mitigation:  Don't get caught emitting the type of radiation they're looking for.  Whether this means keeping radars off, having a low vis paintjob, or finding ways to avoid letting off a lot of waste heat, the goal is to avoid tripping the sensor for as long as possible.
   
• Distraction:  Flood the area with so many emission sources that the system can't discern the legitimate/threatening detections from the distractions.  This isn't often done with optical or infrared, except in the form of flares as a way of evading infrared-guided missiles.  The infrared sensor in the seeker head is simply looking for the hottest object around, so flares serve to distract it by offering a moving object that's emitting more infrared radiation than the engines of the target aircraft in the hopes that the seeker will pursue the flare instead.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not an entirely unreasonable thought, since most sci-fi takes a more futuristic/less realistic approach to stealth.

When most of us think "active stealth" we're thinking something like the thermoptic camo of Ghost in the Shell or the Predator movies if not something even more impressive like the eponymous "cloaking device" from Star Trek and so many other sci-fi titles that renders ships invisible to all forms of detection (and occasionally intangible in the bargain) through a variety of exotic means like gravitational lensing, dimension shifting, etc.

 

Infrared can, to an extent, be manipulated the same way as the visible spectrum... but bending light waves out of the way of a fighter would require some pretty intense applications of gravitational force, which would probably run counter to the idea of remaining stealthy since ships are routinely scanning for dimensional faults and gravitational anomalies both because they can be damaging and because they can be precursors to a ship arriving by space fold, so it wouldn't be particularly useful for stealth purposes.

 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

And while destructive interference applies to infrared as well as any other wavelength, it is usually emitted by the plane, which makes it harder to detect, analyze, and counteract. Also, the location of the sensor is unknown, so it can't be targetted.

 

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, that's kind of the kicker... the difference between a passive sensor system and an active one.

Active sensors like RADAR, LIDAR, LADAR, and fictional equivalents like fold wave RADAR work by shooting a beam of radiation into the surrounding area in the expectation that it'll bounce off of nearby objects and then looking for the reflected energy.  They can examine the amount of reflected energy and the amount of time it takes for the energy to return to the receiver to estimate size and distance, and by tracking the object between sweeps of the radiation beam they can determine directionality and velocity.  These systems can be defeated in a few different ways:

• Jamming: Essentially, barraging the receiver looking for reflected energy with energy of the same type and frequency so that the system and its operators can't differentiate reflected energy from maliciously transmitted energy.  This blinds the sensor, but it also lets everyone know they're there just not specifically where you are.  It's also rather unsafe to do if the enemy has anti-radiation missiles with track-on-jam capability, which will simply pursue the largest local source of radiation in the relevant spectrum and destroy it.
   
• Destructive interference:  As described above, broadcasting a targeted antiphase wave to cancel out the reflected energy's amplitude.  Still the realm of fiction as far as we know.
   
• Passive absorption and deflection:  What modern stealth aircraft use.  The airframe is shaped in such a way that it minimizes the amount of the radiation beam's energy that's reflected back towards the sender, and also coated in a material that absorbs that particular type of radiation and converts it into another form.  Radar absorbant material (RAM) is a paint that is a suspension of fine metallic particles that absorb radar waves and convert them into heat.  Another approach to deflection is chaff, an explosive-driven cloud of reflective fragments that interfere with the path of the radiation beam and may temporarily obscure objects on the other side of the chaff.
   
• Anti-radiation munitions:  Blow it up using missiles that home in on radiation sources.  Also lets the enemy know you're there, and very hard to pull off if the enemy has anti-aircraft defenses.
   

Passive sensors, like optical cameras, infrared cameras, gravity wave detectors, and fictional equivalents don't send out any kind of radiation.  They're just waiting to soak up any radiation they encounter in the target spectrum.  Their ranges are generally more limited because the range of the sensor is generally directly related to its physical size and the sensitivity may be tied to size and other conditions like how cool the sensor can be kept (as on some high-end infrared setups).  There are really only two ways around them:

• Emission mitigation:  Don't get caught emitting the type of radiation they're looking for.  Whether this means keeping radars off, having a low vis paintjob, or finding ways to avoid letting off a lot of waste heat, the goal is to avoid tripping the sensor for as long as possible.
   
• Distraction:  Flood the area with so many emission sources that the system can't discern the legitimate/threatening detections from the distractions.  This isn't often done with optical or infrared, except in the form of flares as a way of evading infrared-guided missiles.  The infrared sensor in the seeker head is simply looking for the hottest object around, so flares serve to distract it by offering a moving object that's emitting more infrared radiation than the engines of the target aircraft in the hopes that the seeker will pursue the flare instead.

*Takes notes*

Thank you gentlemen; this really helps!

[Gendo Koun]

This has been driving me a lot after watching Interstellar yesterday: Is the Anti-Gravity technology that used to keep ships afloat in atmotsphere in Macross Universe using the same principals of our real world techs like magnetic levitation. Or using some sci-fi magic to make it happen ?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Gendo Koun

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Gendo Koun said:

This have been driving me a lot after watching Interstellar yesterday: Is the Anti-Gravity technology that used to keep ships afloat in atmotsphere in Macross Universe using the same principals of our real world techs like magnetic levitation. Or using some sci-fi magic to make it happen ?

It's pretty firmly in the "sci-fi magic" category.

Gravity control technology in Macross uses a form of exotic matter called heavy quantum that exists partly in three dimensional space and partly in fold space. Most of its mass is stored in fold space, and they control how much of that mass protrudes into three-dimensional space using fold waves. By doing so, they can control how much gravity the heavy quantum produces in three dimensional space and manipulate it to produce very localized artificial gravity. The same effect is also used inside thermonuclear reactors in Macross to compress fuel until fusion begins and contain the resulting plasma, and it's also used in thermonuclear warheads and super dimension energy cannons as well.

It's not anti-gravity in the sense that it is not canceling out the planet's gravity. It's more like the ship is introducing a second, very localized gravitational field in order to make itself fall up at the same rate that it is falling down. A separate gravity field inside the ship prevents the crew from falling up.

In the Macross the First manga, the malfunctioning gravity control system causes some of the ship's surroundings to fall up towards it while it is taking off.

It's very different to the Gundam franchise's Minovsky Craft system, which uses the exotic Minovsky particles to produce an effect that is essentially a very localized and powerful form of magnetic levitation.

[Gendo Koun]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's pretty firmly in the "sci-fi magic" category.

Gravity control technology in Macross uses a form of exotic matter called heavy quantum that exists partly in three dimensional space and partly in fold space. Most of its mass is stored in fold space, and they control how much of that mass protrudes into three-dimensional space using fold waves. By doing so, they can control how much gravity the heavy quantum produces in three dimensional space and manipulate it to produce very localized artificial gravity. The same effect is also used inside thermonuclear reactors in Macross to compress fuel until fusion begins and contain the resulting plasma, and it's also used in thermonuclear warheads and super dimension energy cannons as well.

It's not anti-gravity in the sense that it is not canceling out the planet's gravity. It's more like the ship is introducing a second, very localized gravitational field in order to make itself fall up at the same rate that it is falling down. A separate gravity field inside the ship prevents the crew from falling up.

In the Macross the First manga, the malfunctioning gravity control system causes some of the ship's surroundings to fall up towards it while it is taking off.

It's very different to the Gundam franchise's Minovsky Craft system, which uses the exotic Minovsky particles to produce an effect that is essentially a very localized and powerful form of magnetic levitation.

Thank you for solving the puzzle that buzzing me, now I can go take a deep rest without worry. 

[Andras]

Does the Vf22 VFMF go into detail on the differences between the missiles? AOM-8S and CHM-2 compared the the (I'm assuming) High Maneuver AGM-118/122

Thanks

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Andras said:

Does the Vf22 VFMF go into detail on the differences between the missiles? AOM-8S and CHM-2 compared the the (I'm assuming) High Maneuver AGM-118/122

On a basic level.  They're meant for different purposes, so that's about as far as the descriptions actually go.

It could be said that the weapons described are all more "exotic" options rather than the usual multipurpose missiles of various sizes.

For instance, the AOM-8S is described as a two-stage air-launched anti-orbital interception missile.  It's essentially an outlandishly huge rocket-propelled bullet with an inert (non-explosive) heavy metal kinetic warhead that's meant to be launched by a Valkyrie in a planetary atmosphere to strike enemies in orbit.  The first stage is used to get it into space from the firing Valkyrie's present altitude, and the second is used for terminal acceleration to turn that large heavy chunk of metal into a lethally fast spear.

The CHM-2 is a modified version of the SACHM-1 high-speed surface-to-air missile that has been reworked for use as an air-to-air missile.  It's square because the SACHM-1 was designed for an armored box launcher platform.  Its effectiveness is criticized because its initial acceleration after launch is slow.

The AGM-118 and AGM-112 are, as their real world-inspired designations would suggest, primarily (but not exclusively) air-to-ground missile occasionally also used as an anti-warship missile.  From its description, it's basically an aircraft launched cruise missile designed for stealth.  The AGM-118 uses an explosive warhead, while the AGM-122 is a larger model following the same basic design that instead is more akin to the AOM-8S in that it carries a payload of inert armor-penetrating tungsten rods that it's designed to accelerate to ludicrous speeds.

The RMS-5 needs no real explanation, it's a fighter-launched thermonuclear reaction warhead.

The ALP-125 is similar in concept to the SPP-8 and LPP-12 in the VF-19 book... which is to say, it's a rocket-propelled gun.  Where the SPP-8 was basically a missile built to chase enemies and spray them with coilgun-launched buckshot and the LPP-12 is the same in principle but uses a chemical laser, the ALP-125 is a more aggressive version that uses a miniaturized explosive based on reaction warhead technology to produce a single incredibly powerful laser blast that also results in the destruction of the missile in a substantial explosion.  It could be thought of as a single-use missile-carried version of a strike pack's beam cannon in terms of firepower and is implied to be less than safe to use due to the literally explosive nature of its laser excitation.

The ASM-91 is a stealth-focused anti-ship missile that's a relative of, and shares some parts with, the HMM-111CS high-maneuverability general-purpose missile.  It's unusual as anti-ship missiles go in that it's designed to take a conventional explosive warhead instead of a thermonuclear reaction warhead, being intended for precision strikes against key systems like communications and air defenses rather than simply obliterating the enemy ship through thermonuclear brute force.

[JB0]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

the ALP-125 is a more aggressive version that uses a miniaturized explosive based on reaction warhead technology to produce a single incredibly powerful laser blast that also results in the destruction of the missile in a substantial explosion

So Macross gets a little hard sci-fi with a bomb-pumped X-ray laser? Awesome!

[snakerbot]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The ALP-125 is similar in concept to the SPP-8 and LPP-12 in the VF-19 book... which is to say, it's a rocket-propelled gun.  Where the SPP-8 was basically a missile built to chase enemies and spray them with coilgun-launched buckshot and the LPP-12 is the same in principle but uses a chemical laser, the ALP-125 is a more aggressive version that uses a miniaturized explosive based on reaction warhead technology to produce a single incredibly powerful laser blast that also results in the destruction of the missile in a substantial explosion.  It could be thought of as a single-use missile-carried version of a strike pack's beam cannon in terms of firepower and is implied to be less than safe to use due to the literally explosive nature of its laser excitation.

This is one of the most metal things I've ever read.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, snakerbot said:

This is one of the most metal things I've ever read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur?wprov=sfla1

Would you be horrified to know we tried to do this in real life?  Because we did.

[Master Dex]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur?wprov=sfla1

Would you be horrified to know we tried to do this in real life?  Because we did.

The tip of the iceberg really! These were gonna be used, along with other crazy but physically possible weapons on the USAF's Orion based space battleship. Which is a real design that would have had enough nuclear ordnance to basically kill the planet in one ship. Story goes it was Kennedy who axed it after reading the details and getting thoroughly freaked out by the concept. https://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarshipart.php#id--Orion_Battleship

I agree it was likely too dangerous to make but at the same time it would have been pretty impressive as a spacecraft. I'm not willing to risk MAD over it though.

Considering however that the UN Spacy basically has clean versions of all that tech and more they likely would appreciate it. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Master Dex

[JB0]

4 hours ago, Master Dex said:

The tip of the iceberg really! These were gonna be used, along with other crazy but physically possible weapons on the USAF's Orion based space battleship. Which is a real design that would have had enough nuclear ordnance to basically kill the planet in one ship. Story goes it was Kennedy who axed it after reading the details and getting thoroughly freaked out by the concept. https://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarshipart.php#id--Orion_Battleship

I agree it was likely too dangerous to make but at the same time it would have been pretty impressive as a spacecraft. I'm not willing to risk MAD over it though.

Considering however that the UN Spacy basically has clean versions of all that tech and more they likely would appreciate it. 

The REALLY fun one was the USAF's OTHER Orion battlewagon. It DIDN'T have crew, or weapons. They just filled the entire craft with a SINGLE FUSION BOMB. Yield was estimated to be a hundred gigatons. No one's ENTIRELY sure what the effects of a blast that large would be, other than "very bad"

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

The REALLY fun one was the USAF's OTHER Orion battlewagon. It DIDN'T have crew, or weapons. They just filled the entire craft with a SINGLE FUSION BOMB. Yield was estimated to be a hundred gigatons. No one's ENTIRELY sure what the effects of a blast that large would be, other than "very bad"

I don't doubt this concept was floated, but it reminds me more of the Soviet idea for a massive barge of nuclear explosive which would basically have the same end result. Also a concept that thankfully never actually happened.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, JB0 said:

The REALLY fun one was the USAF's OTHER Orion battlewagon. It DIDN'T have crew, or weapons. They just filled the entire craft with a SINGLE FUSION BOMB. Yield was estimated to be a hundred gigatons. No one's ENTIRELY sure what the effects of a blast that large would be, other than "very bad"

Just goes to show how much more responsible the Earth UN Government was.

They built an irresponsibly gigantic gun instead.

 

EDIT: It is in fact a completely different UN Government also in Macross that later built the irresponsibly gigantic bomb and then stuck like eight of them on one ship.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Just goes to show how much more responsible the Earth UN Government was.

They built an irresponsibly gigantic gun instead.

 

EDIT: It is in fact a completely different UN Government also in Macross that later built the irresponsibly gigantic bomb and then stuck like eight of them on one ship.

And then attempted to turn the Sun into a torus by connecting two warp cores?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

On 10/19/2023 at 3:06 AM, pengbuzz said:

And then attempted to turn the Sun into a torus by connecting two warp cores?

Wrong franchise for that in-joke... but the level of scientific irresponsibility's about the same.

 

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wrong franchise for that in-joke... but the level of scientific irresponsibility's about the same.

 

I know....but still funny and applies.